J & K news and discussion

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Neshant
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Neshant » 24 Aug 2008 23:15

15 more terrorists were killed trying to infiltrate from pakistan.

There has been a huge upsurge in infiltration attempts starting 2 months ago.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby chandrabhan » 24 Aug 2008 23:22

I hope this does not warrant reprimand from the moderators . Let me just put a link to my blog - a note on Barkha dutt types. I wrote some 5-6 months back.

http://www.aryaninvader.com/2008/02/isl ... -tick.html

ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 24 Aug 2008 23:25

Chandhrabhan, I sent you an e-mail to the gmail address.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby chandrabhan » 24 Aug 2008 23:38

ramana wrote:Chandhrabhan, I sent you an e-mail to the gmail address.

Raman Sir,
Please check your mail box :)
The more aware the wolf pack is of the terrain in which it runs, the more effectively it hunts - very famous line for scenario builders :)

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby kshirin » 25 Aug 2008 00:59

Has this been posted? Interesting what he says about BJP and lack of contact with central govt.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... 4INTERVIEW
'Kashmiris Not Necessarily For Pak'
'There is a feeling that Pakistan has lost interest in Kashmir ... that PTV or the Pakistan media is not covering the events in Kashmir prominently'
SABA NAQVI INTERVIEWS MIRWAIZ UMER FAROOQ
Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, 35, heads a faction of the Hurriyat Conference and is one of the key leaders in the Valley that New Delhi can talk to. As the Mirwaiz or chief priest, he has great influence in Kashmir. Besides his religious and popular clout, he is a reasonable man who has tried to engage in dialogue with the Centre in the past. He spoke to Saba Naqvi. Excerpts:
How would you like to see New Delhi manage the situation?
There seems to be no policy in New Delhi. You are right—they want to manage and not address the situation. India is a responsible power and now, with the US nuclear deal, it is seen as a big power.
People here are disappointed with what has become of the political system in Pakistan.
But with power you also have responsibility. You can’t shun responsibility on an issue like Kashmir. It is so sad that Kashmir is judged by people in India from a Pakistan perspective.
Has there been any attempt at a solution from the Manmohan Singh government?
This government has done nothing. The Vajpayee government was keen to move forward. Vajpayee had a personal sort of interest in trying to see that there is movement in the (peace) process. With the Congress the problem is that they still have a colonial bent of mind. They only see Kashmir as a live issue when a bomb goes off or people die in firing. And now that elections are due in India, parties there are trying to play politics in the name of Kashmir. The BJP in the name of religion and Congress in the name of national security.
Are you pro-Pakistan? Many slogans raised (in the rallies and protest marches) were for Pakistan and an Islamic state.
Please look at the mood of the people. When someone on the street here says Pakistan or Nizam-e-Mustafa, what are they trying to convey? What he (the Kashmiri) is saying is that he rejects the present system. This does not necessarily mean he would choose Pakistan. People here know what has been happening within Pakistan. They are disappointed in what has become of the political system there. There is also a feeling that Pakistan has lost interest in Kashmir. Some people come and complain to me that PTV or the Pakistan media is not covering the events in Kashmir prominently.
Many slogans are also raised in support of a militant group like the Lashkar...
(Laughs) This is to agitate the Indians. Militancy is not so strong now, though it might be alive. The Lashkar slogan is about a sentiment. It is wrong to say that Kashmir was always about militancy.
Are you scared by the force of this movement?
I am scared in a sense that I know this has to be controlled. The other night, people were on the streets. There were fears that anyone can attack in the dark. A spontaneous movement is at times hard to channel.
How do you respond to Syed Ali Shah Geelani’s dramatic proclamation of his own solitary leadership?
This is a mass movement, and plainly not driven by one leader. I don’t know what was going through his mind when he made that declaration.
Who is keeping in touch with you from New Delhi?
No one at all. I have only been contacted by the local district collector who came yesterday to talk about the UN march.
Of course I will talk if someone comes as doors cannot be closed. No home ministry official, no envoy from Delhi, I promise. Maybe they will now speak to Geelani saab as he has said that he is the single leader of Kashmir (laughs).
Would you have ever considered taking part in an election? Ultimately, yes. But you can’t expect the Hurriyat to go for elections with nothing to offer if none of our demands are met.
Would a dialogue help now? Manmohan Singh is a nice person, but as a leader he has failed. He has nothing to offer the people of Kashmir. I don’t think anything will happen till the general elections are over.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Yayavar » 25 Aug 2008 01:18

A good article by Tavleen Singh: http://www.indianexpress.com/story/352574.html

Reflects wisdom seen on BR :).

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby kvjayan » 25 Aug 2008 01:40

"Addressing a press conference at her residence in New Delhi, Mehbooba said she has brought documents from the state assembly to prove that Azad was not telling the truth...... Raising her voice she accused the members of the shrine board of being the most corrupt persons who should be shot dead.......She was one of the leaders of the Valley who prefers that Amarnath Yatra should be controlled by by the state government.

This is the only solution to the problem," Mehbooba said rather aggressively.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/24amar1.htm

This anti-national character has got a residence in the capital while she would not allow land for even a temporary shelter for the yatris and yet can "raise her voice" and talk "rather aggressively" in New Delhi without having to worry about any retaliation.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Aug 2008 02:21

Sometimes I wonder had the Kashmiris not been pale, would the rest of us have to put up with this horsesh1t.
(I am wheatish-complexioned [when I stay out of the sun{in winter}]). :wink:

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby enqyoob » 25 Aug 2008 02:44

Let's see:
Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, 35, heads a faction of the Hurriyat Conference and is one of the key leaders in the Valley that New Delhi can talk to.


OK, so who is this guy?

Mirwaiz is the term for the hereditary leader of Muslims in Kashmir :roll: . In 1947, Umar's granduncle Moulvi Mohammad Youssuf Shah migrated to Muzaffarabad. Since then, his family, based in downtown Rajouri Kadal in Srinagar, has held the title of Mirwaiz.

In the Soviet Union or China they would have been sent to ReEducation Camps as family of a traitor.

Umer Farooq took over the title and politics as a teenager, when his father Mirwaiz Mohammed Farooq, chief of the Awami Action Committee, was assassinated in May 1990.After taking over as the 12th Mirwaiz, Umer became the founder chairman of the Hurriyat in 1993.


Inherited the family business of Muzzafarbad connection?

Before that, Umer wanted to be a software engineer. He has a master's degree in Islamic studies :rotfl: and considers the Internet 'a hobby.'


Oh, yeah. And I wanted to be a rocket scientist and have a high-school diploma in Home Science. The internet is a "hobby" for all Islamic terrorists.

Umer is considered the more moderate of Kashmiri separatist leaders. He has a strong support base in the Bakras. The Bakras, traditionally well to do people based mostly in downtown Srinagar, have always been at the forefront of anti-India politics in Kashmir.


IOW, this high school dropout terrorist represents the traitors who get fat off the Central Aid given from the Indian taxpayer.

Who gives Internet connections to these terrorists in the Kashmir Valley anyway? is it through the RAW?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 25 Aug 2008 02:50


kshirin
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby kshirin » 25 Aug 2008 02:50

Thanks for the Tavleen Singh link, excellent article.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Supratik » 25 Aug 2008 03:41

Questions for Jamwal.


1) Why the discrepancy in population figures from the census data and the population data claimed by those agitating for delimitation of constituencies in J&K?

2) If illegal Bangladeshis can become residents with voter cards and ration cards what prevents people from other parts of India to obtain these in J&K?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Yayavar » 25 Aug 2008 03:59

kshirin wrote:Thanks for the Tavleen Singh link, excellent article.


you are welcome :).

I'm reading Ramachandra Guha's, India after Gandhi. I've not always agreed with Guha's opinion but he has done a good service to the Nation by writing this book. There may be other interpretations of the events or details he has missed out, however, this is the first book I've found that comprehensively covers the more recent history of Bharat Desh. Guha is aware of this and has taken the first mover advantage :).

In any case he describes the Kashmir issue from the early days and up to Abduallah's arrest -- largely due to Abduallah developing the megalomania of ruling Kashmir akin to a King in my view rather than the original plan.

However, coming to the point, it is very interesting that even in early 50's there was a strong Jammu movement for full integration with India and for greater Jammu representation. For all the talk of election fraud, Abdullah in the first election had it such that majority of the nomination papers of the opposition ("PRaja Parishad") were found invalid. In the end, National conference was elected to all seats (75), 72 of them unopposted. SP Mookherji joined the protest later but it was local, and a ground swell even then.

Need the original Jammu slogan revived: Ek vidhan, ek pradhan, ek nishan

One Constitution, One parliament (am taking some liberty here), and One flag (aka one country - India).

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Yayavar » 25 Aug 2008 04:02

kvjayan wrote:"Addressing a press conference at her residence in New Delhi, Mehbooba said she has brought documents from the state assembly to prove that Azad was not telling the truth...... Raising her voice she accused the members of the shrine board of being the most corrupt persons who should be shot dead.......She was one of the leaders of the Valley who prefers that Amarnath Yatra should be controlled by by the state government.

This is the only solution to the problem," Mehbooba said rather aggressively.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/24amar1.htm

This anti-national character has got a residence in the capital while she would not allow land for even a temporary shelter for the yatris and yet can "raise her voice" and talk "rather aggressively" in New Delhi without having to worry about any retaliation.


Interesting...she wants an "Amicable resolution" while recommending that all of the Shrine board members be killed. Quite a threat!

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby vsudhir » 25 Aug 2008 04:05

Apologies if posted previously.

http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/72039/08_ ... oured.html

Jaitley smacks Thappad. Hard. Very hard. Part 1 is tame. Things are better post warmup.

'Phree' Media seems certainly to be toeing the line of the 'laand of the phree'. Desi news media must be grounded in Desh. Its entire shareholding must be domestic. Phoren interest, ownership and agenda in something as important as news media is dangerous.

Ensoi.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Neshant » 25 Aug 2008 04:45

> Before that, Umer wanted to be a software engineer. He has a master's degree in Islamic
> studies


the boy would have a hard time finding a real job if his 'movement' ever ended.

Jehad comes about when people have too little work and too much time on their hands. End the subsidies to the state, work will become important and jehad will go out the window.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 25 Aug 2008 05:00


ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 25 Aug 2008 05:02



“We felt that the State government’s soft handling of the pro-Pakistan protests had empowered secessionists, a senior Union Home Ministry official told The Hindu.


And the state is under Central govt rule. The HM official is saying like there is a state govt in place. :(

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby shiv » 25 Aug 2008 05:48

G Subramaniam wrote:There have been some articles on some concepts that the human brain has 3 levels

Reptile brain at the core with an overlay of mammal brain with an overlay of human brain

--


I would be very interested in seeing these articles that speak of these concepts because the particular words you use sound like rubbish to me. For example your post sounds like there is a distinction between a human brain and a mammallian brain. I always thought humans were mammals.

The real problem as I see it is that if we can indulge in mumbo-jumbo pseudoscience to "explain" Islam's bad practices to our fellows - it is no different from Mullahs using some mumbo jumbo to justify what they do.

Coming back as you are from your one month vacation I would ask you to use your knowledge to make a better case for what may be new information

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 25 Aug 2008 06:04

http://telegraphindia.com/1080825/jsp/n ... 739798.jsp

Exiles in ghettos keep fire blazing
SANKARSHAN THAKUR
Agnishekhar

Muthi (Jammu), Aug. 24: They live eight, often ten or twelve, to a room. To call them rooms is a stretch; hovels is more appropriate — barely six by eight, the asbestos ceilings knocked low over them, a vast and suffocating narrow-laned warren. They do with temporary power pulled on illicit lines, they have little access to water, they share unsanitary community bathrooms. They live marooned in the putrid discharge oozing from them, amid foraging pigs and pie-dogs.

These are Kashmiri Pandits uprooted from their Valley moorings two decades ago, and Muthi, on the forsaken outskirts of Jammu, is their home — a blistered tinderbox of frustration and rage, spewing communal pus. In Muthi, and other similar “migrant camps” littered around Jammu, could lie some of the clues to why this crisis has caught fires that refuse to die.

It’s so angry, it doesn’t even want to talk. “Go away, just go away,” protests P.N. Dhar, a former government employee and community leader. “What have you come here now for? To use us to douse the fires those (expletive deleted) Kashmiri Muslims are lighting up? Too late, now it’s our turn to light the fires, to get some notice from this country.”

Men from the ghetto have gathered around Dhar and it is instantly evident they have unspent payloads of fury and hatred accumulated over the years; they are now letting it off.

“This country has only been bothered about (expletive deleted) who carry Pakistani flags and spit on patriots,” says Sahabji Chrungoo, originally from Baramulla. “Nobody came when we were thrown out, nobody bothered when we were killed, nobody listened when we warned secession had gripped Kashmir. But how long could you have ignored it? This had to happen. If we have to light fires now to get attention, so be it. But this time, we will have it our way.”

As an unprecedented regional-communal conflict consumes the state, the Valley’s ousted Kashmiri Pandits have become Jammu’s sword-arm in battle. It’s a sword smelted in decades of unassuaged grievance and of rancour and prejudice. It’s a sword that has verily stabbed the celebrated and inclusive notion of “Kashmiriyat” to death and invoked in its place a ghoulish spectre of intolerance that threatens to extend the current rift.

Agnishekhar, convener of Panun Kashmir, the umbrella body of ousted Pandits, isn’t even remorseful or apologetic about pronouncing “Kashmiriyat” dead.

“What about it?” he asks combatively. “Where is composite culture when all Hindus have been driven out of the Valley, out of their homes and farmlands? They killed Kashmiriyat, not us. Don’t expect secularism of us when you are pandering to all shades of Islam and anti-nationalism in the Valley. Who is secular in the Valley that Jammu is being called communal in contrast? Those who are unleashing cries of Nizam-e-Mustafa (Islamic rule)?”

The Panun Kashmir leader won’t openly admit it, but the strident “Bam-Bam Bole” movement across Jammu is an hour of vindication that he is loath to let go of.

“We have been waiting for this for long,” he says. “Jammu didn’t exactly welcome us when we were driven out of the Valley in 1989-90, we haven’t had it easy here. But now Jammu seems to have understood what the problem with Kashmiri Muslims is, it has risen and we are with Jammu. This is not about land in Amarnath, this is about a deeper malaise of which Amarnath is only a symptom. Kashmir has held India to ransom for too long, now it is our turn. Half the Kashmiri leadership deserves to be put behind bars for sedition, we deserve to be reinstated to our homes.”

Does he realistically believe, though, that he and his fellow Pandits can make their way back to the Valley laden with such loathing? That they can even, in this surcharge, visualise the “yatra” to Amarnath proceeding next year?

“That is for the government to ensure,” Agnishekhar says. “Why does the law of the land not run in Kashmir, can Indians not go there? The government and secularists of this country have nothing to say of the anti-national Islamists of Kashmir, all they can do is blame us. What for? For agitating with the national flag?”

As his Muthi compatriots gather, a little clutch that has mushroomed in minutes, Agnishekhar, also a Hindi writer of fair renown, crossly throws off the burden of bigotry from his doorstep.

“I was once known as a progressive writer, until they threw me out for protesting the ouster of Pandits and began calling me a religious zealot. But should I not even protest my circumstances? Won’t you if you were thrown out of home? Hum aah bhi karen to ho jaate hain badnaam, woh katl bhi karen to charcha nahin hota (I get defamed if I so much as complain, they commit murder and yet get no blame).”

Agnishekhar claims no allegiance to the BJP or the Hindu rightwing, he’s been a Congressman all his life, paid obeisance to Nehru. He does concede, though, that today his worldview is closer to the Hindu rightwing.

“Where are Nehru’s children, where is the Congress, feeding the Muslim communalists of the Valley?” he asks. “It’s the BJP that helped us in crisis, if anybody did, we have to be grateful. And now we have to fight its battle to the very end.”

The assemblage behind him, virulently anti-Muslim and sporting saffron bandannas, is ominously nodding approval.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby enqyoob » 25 Aug 2008 07:44

Oh, BTW, this gem:

Mirwaiz is the term for the hereditary leader of Muslims in Kashmir


Phooeey!

narayanan is the term for the Absolute Emperor of the Whole Universe.
:P :mrgreen:

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 25 Aug 2008 07:54

Homoerotic propaganda piece in the Hindustan Times... Muslim boys who are "born warriors" and "do not fear death" etc, etc...

Valley youths yearn for azaadi

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 25 Aug 2008 08:07

shiv wrote:
G Subramaniam wrote:There have been some articles on some concepts that the human brain has 3 levels

Reptile brain at the core with an overlay of mammal brain with an overlay of human brain

--


I would be very interested in seeing these articles that speak of these concepts because the particular words you use sound like rubbish to me. For example your post sounds like there is a distinction between a human brain and a mammallian brain. I always thought humans were mammals.

The real problem as I see it is that if we can indulge in mumbo-jumbo pseudoscience to "explain" Islam's bad practices to our fellows - it is no different from Mullahs using some mumbo jumbo to justify what they do.

Coming back as you are from your one month vacation I would ask you to use your knowledge to make a better case for what may be new information



Shiv, let me rephrase this in another manner

A human seems to have a rational brain and an irrational, deeply rooted part of the brain

For the kashmir valley muslim, the rational brain would see the miserable state of POK, The hell hole of pakistan,

and on the other hand. the huge subsidies given to the valley muslims,
the future prospects all over India, such as in bollywood, call centers etc

The irrational part of the brain would due to slogans like Nizami Mustafa, Darul-Harb vs Darul Islam, Jihad, etc would over-ride the rational part of the brain

This is similar to the british born muslim suicide bombers where despite the comforts of the west, the appeal of jihad over-rides it

The prognosis is terminal, if all these appeasements cant secularise the kashmiri valley muslims, only an israeli style settlement program will solve the issue
given political will,
it is not that difficult to set up armed townships, starting with Jammu Dogras ( JK state subjects ) which does not violate article 370
and later adding on ex-servicemen as renters

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sum » 25 Aug 2008 09:06

kshirin wrote:Thanks for the Tavleen Singh link, excellent article.

On the other hand, we have this:
Link
BJP on J&K: reversing its own legacy

Vidya Subrahmaniam

The BJP leadership is flirting with danger in Jammu and Kashmir. Lal Krishna Advani must end the brinkmanship — as much for the sake of the Vajpayee legacy as his own credibility.

The Bharatiya Janata Party’s nimble-footedness when it comes to snatching a chance is hidden from no one. So it came as no surprise when BJP leaders, led by Lal Krishna Advani, swiftly sussed out the electoral potential of the inflamed Hindu passions in Jammu, and the separatist counter-response playing out in the Kashmir Valley. The Sri Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti (SASS)-led land-for-pilgrims movement fitted the BJP bill as no other recent issue: the Ramar Sethu controversy had emotional appeal but lacked the spark, volatility and spontaneity of the Sangharsh Samiti-led agitation. Similarly, while terrorism was a nationwide concern, it had not coalesced into a people’s movement; the issue had also been the staple of many previous elections.

The Jammu protests, on the other hand, resembled the Ramjanmabhoomi movement, matching it in intensity and potential, if not in scale and reach. Most attractively for the BJP, Amarnath was a mint-fresh, mass-driven movement and, therefore, much more authentic than any campaign originating from within the party. The Amarnath movement pulsated with promise in terms of two party objectives — the immediate one of winning seats in Jammu in the coming elections to the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly and the subsequent one of carrying that momentum to the rest of the country in time for the 2009 general election.

Yet the plot is riddled with contradictions: The divisions within the Sangh Parivar on the approach to the Amarnath agitation, Mr. Advani’s reinvented moderate image, and Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s grand Kashmir legacy, all complicate identification with the Amarnath project.

The BJP-RSS divergence has been clear ever since Jammu exploded in anger against the revocation of land allotment to the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board. The BJP would like to take political leadership of the agitation while the RSS and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad fear precisely such a situation. The RSS and the VHP do not want a repeat of the Ayodhya agitation which passed into the hands of the BJP only to become a pawn in the party’s political games — to be used and discarded at will. VHP general secretary Pravin Togadia said as much at a recent press meet when he insisted that political parties intending to join the Amarnath campaign must “leave behind their party flags.” The warning had the intended effect: the BJP, which had planned a series of energetic agitations around Amarnath, in Jammu and outside, has had to temper its enthusiasm. For its part, the SASS, though welcoming of the BJP’s support, seems keen not to change the bipartisan, if increasingly belligerent, character of the movement.

The changed nature of the agitation is itself a barrier against the BJP’s leadership ambitions. Initially restrained, the protests have since become lumpenised and violent, damaging the party’s claim that it was a peaceful, nationalistic movement which contrasted sharply with the hostile, separatist uprising in the Valley. BJP spokespersons had delighted in pointing out the difference: In Jammu, the security forces were helpless, in fact, sympathetic, because the protesters carried the Indian flag and raised pro-Army and pro-police slogans. In the Valley, the protesters were fired upon because they attacked and abused the security forces.

“Who would attack people who carry the tricolour,” asked a BJP leader even as he unveiled the party’s new slogan: nationalism versus separatism. An aggressive, rampaging mob charging at police posts, torching vehicles, and attacking politicians comes in the way of the BJP claiming ownership of the Jammu agitation — and more so on the eve of a general election where it could be faced with charges of irresponsibility.

This is the crux of the problem for the BJP leadership, especially for its shadow Prime Minister. Over the last couple of years, Mr. Advani has worked hard to live down his reckless Ayodhya warrior image. His journey to Pakistan, where he lavished praise on Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s 1947 secular vision, was intended to undo the perception of a frenzied hardliner forever pandering to the Hindu cause, thereby surrendering his claim to be elected Prime Minister of a multi-cultural, multi-religious, essentially tolerant country. During his stay in Pakistan, the architect of the disruptive Ayodhya movement strongly supported the peace moves between India and Pakistan, as also the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government-sponsored initiatives for resolving the Kashmir dispute.

Upon returning home, Mr. Advani held firm to his belief that his support of Jinnah’s “secular” vision was an opportunity for the BJP to shed old shibboleths and recast itself as a modern, conservative party. Unable to stomach the insubordination from its ideological heir, the RSS extracted his resignation from the party chief’s post. That the Sangh resiled from its position and anointed him Prime Minister-apparent was seen as a vindication of the transformed Mr. Advani, now acceptable also to the previously hostile allies of the BJP.

Today the BJP’s Prime Minister-in-waiting is speaking a language that mocks at all that he has strived to achieve. Consider his incendiary August 9 speech to a gathering of the BJP’s youth wing in Delhi. The speech, peppered with phrases such as “quit India” and “do or die,” was ostensibly on the significance of the Quit India movement. Yet used in the context of the flare-up in Kashmir, the words acquired a deliberately provocative meaning: Who needed to quit post-Independent India?

The answer was self-evident. Nonetheless, Mr. Advani stressed the point. He called Jammu a “volcano” which meant he admitted to a potentially explosive situation. Yet he egged its people on, calling them “patriotic and self-respecting” and complimenting them on their “do or die” spirit. “To tolerate injustice is a sign of cowardice,” he thundered.

The address raises a pointed question, given the BJP’s recently reiterated position that Kashmir is an integral part of the Indian state. Is the territory integral but not its people? True, the Valley is once again resounding to cries of “azadi” but for a mainstream party consciously and calculatedly to distinguish between the people and their land is to play with fire. This is tragic — for the country, for Mr. Advani who appeared to have buried his divisive past, and even more for Mr. Vajpayee who has left behind a formidable legacy in the form of his path-breaking initiatives in Kashmir and on India-Pakistan relations.

Look at the breathtaking nature and range of what Mr. Vajpayee attempted on either side of the Line of Control. In 1999, he made bold to visit the Minar-e-Pakistan — the ultimate toast to the idea of Pakistan. In 2001, overlooking Pakistan’s Kargil misadventure, he invited its architect, Pervez Musharraf, to walk with him on the “high road to peace.” A year earlier, he had unilaterally called off the use of force (non-initiation of combat operations) against Kashmiris to coincide with the holy month of Ramzan. In 2001, he extended the overture for the third time while simultaneously declaring in Parliament that he was ready to talk to “every group in the State.”

In January 2003, Mr. Vajpayee invited the separatist All-Party Hurriyat Conference for talks. The ground work for this was done by none other than Mr. Advani, Deputy Prime Minister in the Vajpayee government. The Hurriyat leaders met Mr. Advani and issued a joint statement that called for a “step by step solution” to the Kashmir problem. Two months later, Mr. Vajpayee became the first Prime Minister since 1987 to address a rally in Srinagar. The rally, high on atmospherics and symbolism, drew a 30,000-strong, applauding crowd that watched as the Prime Minister unwound a series of spectacular initiatives — from talks with secessionist groups through engagement with Pakistan to offers of jobs, reconstruction and peace. In January 2004, Mr. Vajpayee and General Musharraf announced the resumption of the composite dialogue process between India and Pakistan — a decision hailed as historic in India, in Pakistan and across the world.

The point here is not to project Mr. Vajpayee as a statesman truly above partisan considerations. The former Prime Minister was as apt to play the Hindu card as his less distinguished colleagues. Yet when the big idea called, he responded gallantly, displaying a maturity and sense of purpose completely at odds with the obscurantist world view of the Sangh and much of his own party. During Mr. Vajpayee’s tenure, India and Pakistan warred and engaged repeatedly. Mr. Vajpayee’s USP was his ability to recognise when to engage, and to engage disregarding previous history. On a visit to Germany in 2003, he admitted that the resolution of the Kashmir problem would require “serious compromises” which he was willing to explore through negotiations with General Musharraf. In 2004, he attempted to fulfil that promise.

Forget attempting a compromise between Jammu and Kashmir, the BJP is today pitting one against the other, which is a complete negation of the Vajpayee legacy. Mr. Advani must end this brinkmanship — as much for Mr. Vajpayee’s sake as his own. For he knows as does India that only a moderate Prime Minister can hold it together.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rupesh » 25 Aug 2008 10:25

The Bitch is back with her pack of lies
Azadi

It's the only thing the Kashmiri wants. Denial is delusion.

ARUNDHATI ROY

For the past sixty days or so, since about the end of June, the people of Kashmir have been free. Free in the most profound sense. They have shrugged off the terror of living their lives in the gun-sights of half-a-million heavily-armed soldiers in the most densely militarised zone in the world.

After 18 years of administering a military occupation, the Indian government's worst nightmare has come true. Having declared that the militant movement has been crushed, it is now faced with a non-violent mass protest, but not the kind it knows how to manage. This one is nourished by people's memory of years of repression in which tens of thousands have been killed, thousands have been 'disappeared', hundreds of thousands tortured, injured, raped and humiliated. That kind of rage, once it finds utterance, cannot easily be tamed, re-bottled and sent back to where it came from.

For all these years, the Indian State, known amongst the knowing as the Deep State, has done everything it can to subvert, suppress, represent, misrepresent, discredit, interpret, intimidate, purchase—and simply snuff out the voice of the Kashmiri people. It has used money (lots of it), violence (lots of it), disinformation, propaganda, torture, elaborate networks of collaborators and informers, terror, imprisonment, blackmail and rigged elections to subdue what democrats would call "the will of the people". But now the Deep State, as Deep States eventually tend to, has tripped on its own hubris and bought into its own publicity. It made the mistake of believing that domination was victory, that the 'normalcy' it had enforced through the barrel of a gun was indeed normal, and that the people's sullen silence was acquiescence.


People's movement: Protesters march towards the UN office in Srinagar

The well-endowed peace industry, speaking on people's behalf, informed us that "Kashmiris are tired of violence and want peace". What kind of peace they were willing to settle for was never clarified. Bollywood's cache of Kashmir/Muslim-terrorist films has brainwashed most Indians into believing that all of Kashmir's sorrows could be laid at the door of evil, people-hating terrorists.

To anybody who cared to ask, or, more importantly, to listen, it was always clear that even in their darkest moments, people in Kashmir had kept the fires burning and that it was not peace they yearned for, but freedom too. Over the last two months, the carefully confected picture of an innocent people trapped between 'two guns', both equally hated, has, pardon the pun, been shot to hell.

A sudden twist of fate, an ill-conceived move over the transfer of 100 acres of state forest land to the Amarnath Shrine Board (which manages the annual Hindu pilgrimage to a cave deep in the Kashmir Himalayas) suddenly became the equivalent of tossing a lit match into a barrel of petrol. Until 1989, the Amarnath pilgrimage used to attract about 20,000 people who travelled to the Amarnath cave over a period of about two weeks. In 1990, when the overtly Islamic militant uprising in the Valley coincided with the spread of virulent Hindutva in the Indian plains, the number of pilgrims began to increase exponentially. By 2008, more than 5,00,000 pilgrims visited the Amarnath cave in large groups, their passage often sponsored by Indian business houses. To many people in the Valley, this dramatic increase in numbers was seen as an aggressive political statement by an increasingly Hindu-fundamentalist Indian State. Rightly or wrongly, the land transfer was viewed as the thin edge of the wedge. It triggered an apprehension that it was the beginning of an elaborate plan to build Israeli-style settlements, and change the demography of the Valley.Days of massive protest forced the Valley to shut down completely. Within hours, the protests spread from the cities to villages. Young stone-pelters took to the streets and faced armed police who fired straight at them, killing several. For people as well as the government, it resurrected memories of the uprising in the early '90s. Throughout the weeks of protest, hartal and police firing, while the Hindutva publicity machine charged Kashmiris with committing every kind of communal excess, the 5,00,000 Amarnath pilgrims completed their pilgrimage, not just unhurt, but touched by the hospitality they had been shown by local people.

Eventually, taken completely by surprise at the ferocity of the response, the government revoked the land transfer. But by then the land transfer had become what senior separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani called a "non-issue".

Massive protests against the revocation erupted in Jammu. There, too, the issue snowballed into something much bigger. Hindus began to raise issues of neglect and discrimination by the Indian State. (For some odd reason they blamed Kashmiris for that neglect.) The protests led to the blockading of the Jammu-Srinagar highway, the only functional road link between Kashmir and India. The army was called out to clear the highway and allow safe passage of trucks between Jammu and Srinagar. But incidents of violence against Kashmiri truckers were being reported from as far away as Punjab where there was no protection at all. As a result, Kashmiri truckers, fearing for their lives, refused to drive on the highway. Truckloads of perishable fresh fruit and Valley produce began to rot. It became very obvious that the blockade had caused the situation to spin out of control. The government announced that the blockade had been cleared and that trucks were going through. Embedded sections of the Indian media, quoting the inevitable 'Intelligence' sources, began to refer to it as a 'perceived' blockade, and even to suggest that there had never been one.


Flaming chinars: People climb atop trees to hear Hurriyat leaders

But it was too late for those games, the damage had been done. It had been demonstrated in no uncertain terms to people in Kashmir that they lived on sufferance, and that if they didn't behave themselves they could be put under siege, starved, deprived of essential commodities and medical supplies. The real blockade became a psychological one. The last fragile link between India and Kashmir was all but snapped.

To expect matters to end there was of course absurd. Hadn't anybody noticed that in Kashmir even minor protests about civic issues like water and electricity inevitably turned into demands for azadi? To threaten them with mass starvation amounted to committing political suicide.

Not surprisingly, the voice that the Government of India has tried so hard to silence in Kashmir has massed into a deafening roar. Hundreds of thousands of unarmed people have come out to reclaim their cities, their streets and mohallas. They have simply overwhelmed the heavily armed security forces by their sheer numbers, and with a remarkable display of raw courage.

Raised in a playground of army camps, checkposts and bunkers, with screams from torture chambers for a soundtrack, the young generation has suddenly discovered the power of mass protest, and above all, the dignity of being able to straighten their shoulders and speak for themselves, represent themselves. For them it is nothing short of an epiphany. They're in full flow, not even the fear of death seems to hold them back.And once that fear has gone, of what use is the largest or second-largest army in the world? What threat does it hold? Who should know that better than the people of India who won their independence in the way that they did?

The circumstances in Kashmir being what they are, it is hard for the spin doctors to fall back on the same old same old; to claim that it's all the doing of Pakistan's ISI, or that people are being coerced by militants. Since the '30s onwards, the question of who can claim the right to represent that elusive thing known as "Kashmiri sentiment" has been bitterly contested. Was it Sheikh Abdullah? The Muslim Conference? Who is it today? The mainstream political parties? The Hurriyat? The militants? This time around, the people are in charge. There have been mass rallies in the past, but none in recent memory that have been so sustained and widespread. The mainstream political parties of Kashmir—the National Conference, the People's Democratic Party—feted by the Deep State and the Indian media despite the pathetic voter turnout in election after election appear dutifully for debates in New Delhi's TV studios, but can't muster the courage to appear on the streets of Kashmir. The armed militants who, through the worst years of repression, were seen as the only ones carrying the torch of azadi forward, if they are around at all, seem to be content to take a backseat and let people do the fighting for a change.


Everywhere in chains: But it's no barricade to freedom

The separatist leaders who do appear and speak at the rallies are not leaders so much as followers, being guided by the phenomenal spontaneous energy of a caged, enraged people that has exploded on Kashmir's streets. The leaders, such as they are, have been presented with a full-blown revolution. The only condition seems to be that they have to do as the people say. If they say things that people do not wish to hear, they are gently persuaded to come out, publicly apologise and correct their course. This applies to all of them, including Syed Ali Shah Geelani who at a public rally recently proclaimed himself the movement's only leader. It was a monumental political blunder that very nearly shattered the fragile new alliance between the various factions of the struggle. Within hours he retracted his statement. Like it or not, this is democracy. No democrat can pretend otherwise.

Day after day, hundreds of thousands of people swarm around places that hold terrible memories for them. They demolish bunkers, break through cordons of concertina wire and stare straight down the barrels of soldiers' machine-guns, saying what very few in India want to hear. Hum kya chahte? Azadi! We Want Freedom. And, it has to be said, in equal numbers and with equal intensity: Jeevey Jeevey Pakistan. Long live Pakistan.

That sound reverberates through the Valley like the drumbeat of steady rain on a tin roof, like the roll of thunder before an electric storm. It's the plebiscite that was never held, the referendum that has been indefinitely postponed.

On August 15, India's Independence Day, the city of Srinagar shut down completely. The Bakshi stadium where Governor N.N. Vohra hoisted the flag was empty except for a few officials. Hours later, Lal Chowk, the nerve centre of the city (where in 1992, Murli Manohar Joshi, BJP leader and mentor of the controversial "Hinduisation" of children's history textbooks, started a tradition of flag-hoisting by the Border Security Force), was taken over by thousands of people who hoisted the Pakistani flag and wished each other "Happy belated Independence Day" (Pakistan celebrates Independence on August 14) and "Happy Slavery Day".Humour, obviously, has survived India's many torture centres and Abu Ghraibs in Kashmir.

On August 16, more than 3,00,000 people marched to Pampore, to the village of Hurriyat leader Sheikh Abdul Aziz, who was shot down in cold blood five days earlier. He was part of a massive march to the Line of Control demanding that since the Jammu road had been blocked, it was only logical that the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad highway be opened for goods and people, the way it used to be before Kashmir was partitioned.


Goodbye, fear: A police post being dismantled in Srinagar

On August 18, an equal number gathered in Srinagar in the huge TRC grounds (Tourist Reception Centre, not the Truth and Reconciliation Committee) close to the United Nations Military Observers Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) to submit a memorandum asking for three things—the end to Indian rule, the deployment of a UN Peacekeeping Force and an investigation into two decades of war crimes committed with almost complete impunity by the Indian army and police.

The day before the rally the Deep State was hard at work. A senior journalist friend called to say that late in the afternoon the home secretary called a high-level meeting in New Delhi. Also present were the defence secretary and the intelligence chiefs. The purpose of the meeting, he said, was to brief the editors of TV news channels that the government had reason to believe that the insurrection was being managed by a small splinter cell of the ISI and to request the channels to keep this piece of exclusive, highly secret intelligence in mind while covering (or preferably not covering?) the news from Kashmir. Unfortunately for the Deep State, things have gone so far that TV channels, were they to obey those instructions, would run the risk of looking ridiculous. Thankfully, it looks as though this revolution will, after all, be televised.

On the night of August 17, the police sealed the city. Streets were barricaded, thousands of armed police manned the barriers. The roads leading into Srinagar were blocked. For the first time in eighteen years, the police had to plead with Hurriyat leaders to address the rally at the TRC grounds instead of marching right up to the UNMOGIP office which is on Gupkar Road, Srinagar's Green Zone where, for years, the Indian Establishment has barricaded itself in style and splendour.

On the morning of the 18th, people began pouring into Srinagar from villages and towns across the Valley. In trucks, tempos, jeeps, buses and on foot. Once again, barriers were broken and people reclaimed their city. The police were faced with a choice of either stepping aside or executing a massacre. They stepped aside. Not a single bullet was fired.

The city floated on a sea of smiles. There was ecstasy in the air. Everyone had a banner; houseboat owners, traders, students, lawyers, doctors. One said, "We are all prisoners, set us free." Another said, "Democracy without freedom is Demon-crazy". Demon Crazy. That was a good one. Perhaps he was referring to the twisted logic of a country that needed to commit communal carnage in order to bolster its secular credentials. Or the insanity that permits the world's largest democracy to administer the world's largest military occupation and continue to call itself a democracy.

There was a green flag on every lamp post, every roof, every bus stop and on the top of chinar trees. A big one fluttered outside the All India Radio building. Road signs to Hazratbal, Batmaloo, Sopore were painted over. Rawalpindi they said. Or simply Pakistan. It would be a mistake to assume that the public expression of affection for Pakistan automatically translates into a desire to accede to Pakistan.Some of it has to do with gratitude for the support—cynical or otherwise—for what Kashmiris see as a freedom struggle and the Indian State sees as a terrorist campaign. It also has to do with mischief. With saying and doing what galls India, the enemy, most of all. (It's easy to scoff at the idea of a 'freedom struggle' that wishes to distance itself from a country that is supposed to be a democracy and align itself with another that has, for the most part, been ruled by military dictators. A country whose army has committed genocide in what is now Bangladesh. A country that is even now being torn apart by its own ethnic war. These are important questions, but right now perhaps it's more useful to wonder what this so-called democracy did in Kashmir to make people hate it so.)

Everywhere there were Pakistani flags, everywhere the cry, Pakistan se rishta kya? La ilaha illa llah. What is our bond with Pakistan? There is no god but Allah. Azadi ka matlab kya? La ilaha illallah. What does Freedom mean? There is no god but Allah.

For somebody like myself, who is not Muslim, that interpretation of freedom is hard—if not impossible—to understand. I asked a young woman whether freedom for Kashmir would not mean less freedom for her, as a woman. She shrugged and said, "What kind of freedom do we have now? The freedom to be raped by Indian soldiers?" Her reply silenced me.


She's no terrorist: A woman pelts stones at policemen

Standing in the grounds of the TRC, surrounded by a sea of green flags, it was impossible to doubt or ignore the deeply Islamic nature of the uprising taking place around me. It was equally impossible to label it a vicious, terrorist jehad. For Kashmiris, it was a catharsis. A historical moment in a long and complicated struggle for freedom with all the imperfections, cruelties and confusions that freedom struggles have. This one cannot by any means call itself pristine, and will always be stigmatised by, and will some day, I hope, have to account for—among other things—the brutal killings of Kashmiri Pandits in the early years of the uprising, culminating in the exodus of almost the entire community from the Kashmir Valley.

As the crowd continued to swell, I listened carefully to the slogans, because rhetoric often clarifies things and holds the key to all kinds of understanding. I'd heard many of them before, a few years ago, at a militant's funeral. A new one, obviously coined after the blockade, was Kashmir ki mandi! Rawalpindi! (It doesn't lend itself to translation, but it means—Kashmir's marketplace? Rawalpindi!) Another was Khooni lakir tod do, aar paar jod do (Break down the blood-soaked Line of Control, let Kashmir be united again). There were plenty of insults and humiliation for India: Ay jabiron ay zalimon, Kashmir hamara chhod do (Oh oppressors, Oh wicked ones, Get out of our Kashmir). Jis Kashmir ko khoon se seencha, woh Kashmir hamara hai (The Kashmir we have irrigated with our blood, that Kashmir is ours!).

The slogan that cut through me like a knife and clean broke my heart was this one: Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself—Pakistan). Why was it so galling, so painful to listen to this? I tried to work it out and settled on three reasons. First, because we all know that the first part of the slogan is the embarrassing and unadorned truth about India, the emerging superpower. Second, because all Indians who are not nanga or bhookha are—and have been—complicit in complex and historical ways with the cruel cultural and economic systems that make Indian society so cruel, so vulgarly unequal.And third, because it was painful to listen to people who have suffered so much themselves mock others who suffer in different ways, but no less intensely, under the same oppressor. In that slogan I saw the seeds of how easily victims can become perpetrators.

It took hours for Mirwaiz Umer Farooq and Syed Ali Shah Geelani to wade through the thronging crowds and make it onto the podium. When they arrived, they were born aloft on the shoulders of young men, over the surging crowd to the podium. The roar of greeting was deafening. Mirwaiz Umer spoke first. He repeated the demand that the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, Disturbed Areas Act and Public Safety Act—under which thousands have been killed, jailed and tortured—be withdrawn. He called for the release of political prisoners, for the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road to be opened for the free movement of goods and people, and for the demilitarisation of the Kashmir Valley.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani began his address with a recitation from the Quran. He then said what he has said before, on hundreds of occasions. The only way for the struggle to succeed, he said, was to turn to the Quran for guidance. He said Islam would guide the struggle and that it was a complete social and moral code that would govern the people of a free Kashmir. He said Pakistan had been created as the home of Islam, and that that goal should never be subverted. He said just as Pakistan belonged to Kashmir, Kashmir belonged to Pakistan. He said minority communities would have full rights and their places of worship would be safe. Each point he made was applauded.


Window of opportunity: Spectators for the march to Srinagar

Oddly enough, the apparent doctrinal clarity of what he said made everything a little unclear. I wondered how the somewhat disparate views of the various factions in the freedom struggle would resolve themselves—the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front's vision of an independent state, Geelani's desire to merge with Pakistan and Mirwaiz Umer Farooq balanced precariously between them.

An old man with a red eye standing next to me said, "Kashmir was one country. Half was taken by India, the other half by Pakistan. Both by force. We want freedom." I wondered if, in the new dispensation, the old man would get a hearing. I wondered what he would think of the trucks that roared down the highways in the plains of India, owned and driven by men who knew nothing of history, or of Kashmir, but still had slogans on their tailgates that said, "Doodh maango to kheer denge, Kashmir maango to cheer denge (Ask for milk, you'll get cream; Ask for Kashmir, we'll tear you open)."

Briefly, I had another thought. I imagined myself standing in the heart of an RSS or VHP rally being addressed by L.K. Advani. Replace the word Islam with the word Hindutva, replace the word Pakistan with Hindustan, replace the sea of green flags with saffron ones, and we would have the BJP's nightmare vision of an ideal India.

Is that what we should accept as our future? Monolithic religious states handing down a complete social and moral code, "a complete way of life"? Millions of us in India reject the Hindutva project. Our rejection springs from love, from passion, from a kind of idealism, from having enormous emotional stakes in the society in which we live. What our neighbours do, how they choose to handle their affairs does not affect our argument, it only strengthens it.

Arguments that spring from love are also fraught with danger. It is for the people of Kashmir to agree or disagree with the Islamic project (which is as contested, in equally complex ways, all over the world by Muslims as Hindutva is contested by Hindus).Perhaps now that the threat of violence has receded and there is some space in which to debate views and air ideas, it is time for those who are part of the struggle to outline a vision for what kind of society they are fighting for. Perhaps it is time to offer people something more than martyrs, slogans and vague generalisations. Those who wish to turn to the Quran for guidance will no doubt find guidance there. But what of those who do not wish to do that, or for whom the Quran does not make place? Do the Hindus of Jammu and other minorities also have the right to self-determination? Will the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits living in exile, many of them in terrible poverty, have the right to return? Will they be paid reparations for the terrible losses they have suffered? Or will a free Kashmir do to its minorities what India has done to Kashmiris for 61 years? What will happen to homosexuals and adulterers and blasphemers? What of thieves and lafangas and writers who do not agree with the "complete social and moral code"? Will we be put to death as we are in Saudi Arabia? Will the cycle of death, repression and bloodshed continue? History offers many models for Kashmir's thinkers and intellectuals and politicians to study. What will the Kashmir of their dreams look like? Algeria? Iran? South Africa? Switzerland? Pakistan?

At a crucial time like this, few things are more important than dreams. A lazy utopia and a flawed sense of justice will have consequences that do not bear thinking about. This is not the time for intellectual sloth or a reluctance to assess a situation clearly and honestly. It could be argued that the prevarication of Maharaja Hari Singh in 1947 has been Kashmir's great modern tragedy, one that eventually led to unthinkable bloodshed and the prolonged bondage of people who were very nearly free.

Already the spectre of partition has reared its head. Hindutva networks are alive with rumours about Hindus in the Valley being attacked and forced to flee. In response, phone calls from Jammu reported that an armed Hindu militia was threatening a massacre and that Muslims from the two Hindu majority districts were preparing to flee. (Memories of the bloodbath that ensued and claimed the lives of more than a million people when India and Pakistan were partitioned have come flooding back. That nightmare will haunt all of us forever.)

There is absolutely no reason to believe that history will repeat itself. Not unless it is made to. Not unless people actively work to create such a cataclysm.

However, none of these fears of what the future holds can justify the continued military occupation of a nation and a people. No more than the old colonial argument about how the natives were not ready for freedom justified the colonial project.

Of course there are many ways for the Indian State to continue to hold on to Kashmir. It could do what it does best. Wait. And hope the people's energy will dissipate in the absence of a concrete plan. It could try and fracture the fragile coalition that is emerging. It could extinguish this non-violent uprising and reinvite armed militancy. It could increase the number of troops from half-a-million to a whole million. A few strategic massacres, a couple of targeted assassinations, some disappearances and a massive round of arrests should do the trick for a few more years.

The unimaginable sums of public money that are needed to keep the military occupation of Kashmir going is money that ought by right to be spent on schools and hospitals and food for an impoverished, malnourished population in India. What kind of government can possibly believe that it has the right to spend it on more weapons, more concertina wire and more prisons in Kashmir?

The Indian military occupation of Kashmir makes monsters of us all.It allows Hindu chauvinists to target and victimise Muslims in India by holding them hostage to the freedom struggle being waged by Muslims in Kashmir. It's all being stirred into a poisonous brew and administered intravenously, straight into our bloodstream.

At the heart of it all is a moral question. Does any government have the right to take away people's liberty with military force?

India needs azadi from Kashmir just as much—if not more—than Kashmir needs azadi from India.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080901&fname=Arundhati+Roy+%28F%29&sid=1

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Nayak » 25 Aug 2008 10:37

There is a slight mistake, India needs freedom from kashmiris. We can live with that. Looks like Arun'dotty' Roy has had an overdose of ganja from the local paan-waala.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby disha » 25 Aug 2008 10:44

Rupesh wrote:The Bitch is back with her pack of lies
Azadi

It's the only thing the Kashmiri wants. Denial is delusion.


Why are we giving more URL hits to the ga-n-dfly [tm]? It is like posting links from the unmentionable forum.

Outlook is a known leftist rag which spread lies! It has even withdrawn the apology from the ga-n-dfly.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby jamwal » 25 Aug 2008 11:50

Supratik wrote:Questions for Jamwal.


1) Why the discrepancy in population figures from the census data and the population data claimed by those agitating for delimitation of constituencies in J&K?

2) If illegal Bangladeshis can become residents with voter cards and ration cards what prevents people from other parts of India to obtain these in J&K?


1) Only authorities can explain that. Different websites show different information, then if you read documentsthere are certain discrepancies there too.
Even without this data its a common knowledge in J&K that no. of voters is higher in Jammu.

2) Most of illegal Bangladeshis come to J&K to exfilitrate to pakistan. Can't say anything about those who choose to stay.
It is possible to obtain state subject certificate and other identity proofs if you have little money(J&K 2nd most corrupt state). I know one guy, both parents belonging to other states, buying property, doing business in Jammu. But thats very rare and nobody wants to go to kashmir.
One reason is security risk. 2nd is an outsider can be easily recognised and complaints made by xenophobes there with authorities or worse militants.


Many people have suggested ressettling Kashmiri Pandits back in valley. A good suggestion but is unfeasible currently. Its not only militants, even ordinary kashmiri muslims will oppose Hindus coming back to valley. It'll be very difficult for HIndus to get back to thier old lives. You observe any Kashmiri muslim leader when asked about resettlement of Kashmiri Hindus. They are mostly evasive on this issue. Best answer they give is, first settle the kashmir issue and then we'll think about it. :roll:

Firstly, most of their properties, including houses, orchards etc have been damaged or illegaly occupied by their neighbours. It'll be a very long and bloody battle getting that back.

2nd, KAshmiri Hindus will need massive financial aid in form of loans to start business or govt. jobs. Do you think fanatics in valley will allow that kind of help to Hindus without demanding their pound of flesh.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rupesh » 25 Aug 2008 11:53

disha wrote:
Rupesh wrote:The Bitch is back with her pack of lies
Azadi

It's the only thing the Kashmiri wants. Denial is delusion.


Why are we giving more URL hits to the ga-n-dfly [tm]? It is like posting links from the unmentionable forum.

Outlook is a known leftist rag which spread lies! It has even withdrawn the apology from the ga-n-dfly.


Posted the article in full to reduce hits to the URL, we do need to know what goes in the heads of the leftists and islamists to prepare our own strategies.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rupesh » 25 Aug 2008 12:13

THE IDEA EXCHANGE

Mehbooba Mufti at the EXPRESS

Everything has gone back many years

As president of the People’s Democratic Party in Jammu and Kashmir, Mehbooba Mufti has been a key — and controversial — player in the current crisis raging in the state. In this Idea Exchange moderated by Resident Editor Seema Chishti, she shares her party’s experience of being part of the Ghulam Nabi Azad government, the PDP’s acrimonious withdrawal from the coalition, and possible solutions to the Amarnath land transfer row

•Suman K Jha: According to the Home Ministry, there was never any economic blockade. The national highways were blocked for only one day.
Mehbooba Mufti: If there is no blockade, why is the Army still on the highway? And it’s not just about the blockade, it’s about the impact on the psyche of the people. If we say there was no blockade, we’ll be fooling ourselves. There’s a saying — the pigeon says if I’ll close my eyes the cat will run away. It will not.
The situation was very bad in J&K when the coalition government was formed under Mufti saab. We had a commitment from Congress that it would support us and they did. We revoked POTA, we released Syed Geelani and Yasin Malik.
Today, you have a Geelani who addresses a 55-lakh crowd.( Seems that she has spent a few years in LMU studying Maths ) Today, if you are hearing them chant ‘azadi then something has gone wrong. While we were in charge, for the first time mainstream politicians got space, their credibility was restored. Vajpayee came to Srinagar, there was ceasefire on the borders. Then we started talking about the Muzaffarabad road. But once Mufti saab left, Confidence Building Measures (CBMs) did not continue. The reduction of troops should have been a natural consequence once there was an improvement in the situation. Why did it need militant parties to demand it? The Army has been in Jammu barely 15 days and our Congress colleagues are complaining about a siege. When we say that, we are accused of being anti-national.


Seema Chishti: What is your reading of Geelani and his leadership?

Mehbooba Mufti: I think he’s seen as the tallest leader today, because of his tough stance.


Raj Kamal Jha: In the last 18 years there has not been a single CBM with a gun held to the head of Delhi. How do you expect the Centre to say we will open the road when there are 10 lakh people on the streets? ( Now R K Jha's turn for his version of Madarsa math )

Mehbooba Mufti: There is no gun at Delhi’s head today. People are not carrying guns. How do you justify to the world 10 lakh people marching, and youngsters saying come shoot us or give us independence?

( Better shoot them if thats what they desire, add Mehbooba and her Dad to the list, we can maintain a two minute silence for them ) :mrgreen:

http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/352588._.html

Nayak
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Nayak » 25 Aug 2008 12:30

I think it is time for Mehbooba Mufti and her ilk to follow the real tenets of Islam and martyr themselves for the true cause of azaadi. What is a just struggle without embracing shahaadat ?

I am willing to donate money for a grand mausoleum for these oiseaules.

sunilUpa
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 25 Aug 2008 16:30

IndiaToday has nice article on Kashmir...Villains of Valley.

link

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 25 Aug 2008 18:04

jamwal wrote:
Supratik wrote:Questions for Jamwal.





Many people have suggested ressettling Kashmiri Pandits back in valley. A good suggestion but is unfeasible currently. Its not only militants, even ordinary kashmiri muslims will oppose Hindus coming back to valley. It'll be very difficult for HIndus to get back to thier old lives. You observe any Kashmiri muslim leader when asked about resettlement of Kashmiri Hindus. They are mostly evasive on this issue. Best answer they give is, first settle the kashmir issue and then we'll think about it. :roll:

Firstly, most of their properties, including houses, orchards etc have been damaged or illegaly occupied by their neighbours. It'll be a very long and bloody battle getting that back.

2nd, KAshmiri Hindus will need massive financial aid in form of loans to start business or govt. jobs. Do you think fanatics in valley will allow that kind of help to Hindus without demanding their pound of flesh.


Would you agree that the average Kashmiri muslim is complicit in this
not just ISI or jihadis

IMHO, the only way that hindus can return to the valley is with israeli type settlements, meaning create exclusive hindu townships

The valley is simply an oil droplet like old city hyderabad

Return of hindus to the valley can be done only when hindus figure out the art of settling hindus in islamic oil droplets like Hyderabad or Mallapuram

Gerard
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 25 Aug 2008 18:48

Oranges won't work anymore

Joginder Singh
The Daily Pioneer
2008/08/25
posted in full since site does not archive

The CRPF Inspector-General was transferred from Srinagar on August 13 after an uproar in the Kashmir Valley, led by terrorists and their supporters, who alleged excesses by the Central paramilitary force. He was also denied the President's police medal for fear of controversy and wider protests. There is nothing new in this kind of approach as the decision-makers are far removed from reality. Meanwhile, it is the police and the security forces that continue to face life-and-death situations, standing between chaos and order.

In 1990s, the then Governor of Jammu & Kashmir lost his job for taking a tough stand against anti-nationalist elements. That did not help the situation, nor will the recent transfer of the CRPF Inspector-General restore peace. On the contrary, it will embolden separatists and terrorists who will now think that they can get away with anything.

Wherever the Government of the day has pursued the policy of appeasement and has compromised on basic values, it has invited trouble. Terrorism in the Valley flourishes in direct proportion to the political will to deal with the same. It commenced with the kidnapping of Ms Mehbooba Mufti, the daughter of Mufti Mohammed Sayed, former Home Minister, who is now a former Chief Minister of Jammu & Kashmir. To secure her release, the then Government had freed five dreaded terrorists. This emboldened the separatists and the terrorists, and was enough to start a series of chain reactions in the Valley from 1988 onwards. I am an eyewitness to these events as I was the InspectorGeneral of the CRPF in Srinagar at the time.

The Government's tendency to sweep such incidents under the carpet has today resulted in terrorists openly dictating terms to the people; enforcing the purdah system for women, closing down beauty parlours and cinema houses, etc. The Prime Minister, like many before him, gave a laudable speech from the ramparts of the Red Fort on Independence day this year as he appealed to the masses to shun communalism.

But unfortunately, the whole agitation in the Kashmir Valley is based on a communal ideology. The truth is, communalism in one community generates communalism in others. Otherwise, how could hordes of people led by terrorists start a rally with the declared aim of crossing the LoC into Muzaffarabad? The Government should have responded that those who cross the LoC illegally will not be allowed back into the country.

A series of misconceived policies, or the so-called people-to-people contact, have brought about this situation. Otherwise, how could a mainstream political party demand that Pakistani currency be declared legal tender in Jammu & Kashmir? It would be wrong to say that 'transferring' 97 acres of forest land to the Sri Amarnath Shrine Board has led to the present crisis. The separatists and terrorists have been going all-out to create disturbances and problems as per the following report of the Jammu & Kashmir Government:

"A total of 42,147 people, including 20,647 militants and 5,024 security personnel were killed in the State between January 1990 and the middle of February 2007... Violence left 33,885 people, including 12,124 security personnel and 21,659 civilians injured during the same period in the State... 11,221 civilians were killed by militants and another 1,678 lost their lives in grenade and Improvised Explosive Device explosions, while 173 civilians were killed when they were caught in clashes between militants. A total of 3,404 civilians were killed in cross-firing incidents between security forces and militants... The highest number of 1,438 civilians were killed in 1996, the year elections were held after a gap of seven year, while the highest number of 3,602 Army and other paramilitary personnel lost their lives fighting militants in the same year. Jammu and Kashmir Police lost 537 personnel since January 1990. As many as 438 Special Police Officers engaged by the police in counter-insurgency operations were killed. 127 Village Defence Committee members were killed fighting militants in the State. 613 security personnel were killed in a single year in 2001, which was again the highest."

Now, the question arises as to what can be done. Also whether what is being done is sufficient. In 1990, the midnight protests were sparked by the call given by 1,100 mosques, which had installed loudspeakers to call the faithful to prayer. Loudspeakers in Kashmir's mosques, then as now, are used to give calls for anti-national activities, asking the people to gather in the streets or at a particular spot to stage demonstrations. The then Governor had ordered the disconnection of these loudspeakers, which itself led to protests.

It is a fact that many terrorists take shelter in places of worship. During my recent visit to the US I was told that the police had, with the co-operation of the Muslim community and their religious leaders, installed CCTV cameras in mosques to monitor any criminal activity. In a situation like that which prevails in the Kashmir Valley, which has been highly communalised, it is impossible to get any kind of evidence to prove anti-national activities as no witness will be willing to come forth to depose. Mrs Margaret Thatcher used to say publicity is the oxygen of terrorism. Any publicity which eulogises terrorism should be discouraged, if not completely banned.

Terrorist leaders, their supporters and sympathisers should be immobilised by using the present laws and detained outside Jammu & Kashmir. The Government has announced financial assistance for the families of terrorists on the grounds that it is not their fault if the only earning member of their family becomes a militant. This approach is fraught with danger and the sooner it is given up the better. It should not become a scheme to help traitors.

Many so-called intellectuals talk about a referendum in the Valley. With Pakistan having hijacked the anti-India movement, any referendum or election will be irrelevant at this point of time. The first priority is to drive the Pakistani terrorists out of the Valley and send them to the country of their origin. The Government should stop all dialogue with these militants who are nothing more than agents of Pakistan. Only a tough approach will send the right signal that the Government means business.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Muns » 25 Aug 2008 20:01

A peaceful demonstration of kashmiri people gathered to chant their desire for freedom. As they began their peaceful march, an enraged Jawan whose conciousness was bursting at the very seams, dropped his automatic grenade gun and launched into the crowd.
In a frenzy he began to rape the crowd! I was aghast at the slippers flying everywhere! At one instance he grabbed a frail old man so hard, his sandals were still at the very place he was standing. Young and old, female, male and the in between's he grabbed building a small tower upon him. Jawan I screamed! What are you doing? Why this????

Aloooo Mutter!!!!! He shouted. Alooo Mutter!!!! It struck me then like a bolt from the Hindu god Zeus himself! Aloo mutter! For hundreds of years, we've been trying to cook both the Aloo and the Mutter together...yet the green of the mutter always stands out....waving and flying across the saffron sea of the Aloo. For the sake of our own sanity....the Aloo needs Azaadi from the Mutter and the Mutter needs Azaadi from the Aloo...

B**s***! Anyone can write a story like the above, but it pays little attention to the history and the actual facts of what morally needs to be done :
While she spells out some arguments, she offers no solutions apart from we should get the hell out. Her last paragraph seems to quickly end with a take the easy way...hit the high road...until the next time it starts again.

So it sets a prescedent. If muslims or any other community are in close to a majority...well why not butcher and indulge in ethnic cleansing till the infidel community ceases to exist or has had to flee? Claim your azadi then in the name of islam....and peacefully cry to the world against oppressive injustice.

If those Hindus try to return, simply bomb them at their place of worship like amarnath. Its plain and simple terrorism from the valley that we've had to put up with for so long.

As many have said. A land was carved out for their desire...if freedom was their aim...its just across the border. Not in PoK may i add but pakistan proper. Their freedom is but a short trip away....surely a much easier decision than to surrender to abject raping every day. If we can take on 1.2 million refugees from Pok surely some die hard islamists can return to such a land.

The solutions have been staring at us for so long and it's time we act on them.

1) If the Kashmiri pandits homes have been taken and claiming those will be a problem. Fair enough. One of the links i posted earlier shows a partial map for an idea of a Kashmiri pandit homeland. One may be created close to Srinagar and phased replacement and security may be started. That is morally correct.

2) Readjust the assembly seats as per the population. Allow the Pandits to return so they can contest some seats from the valley. If we have 1.2 million Pok refugees and seats set aside in the assembly....is it not ideal for some of them to contest these seats? Not only do they get their voice heard to deal with issues of their community but they can morally dictate for Pok to be returned. It lends us much leeway on any issue we take to procede with any action in Pok. Limited strikes and the like.

A good start to procede in a way that is morally and secular yet pro active. The media war needs to change from showing the kashmiri seperatists for what they are. An islamist minority soaked in sunni wahhabism that's cleansed a section of its community to then cry for separatism. That injustice needs to be corrected and peace shall then return.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 25 Aug 2008 21:25

Arundhati's article and the TOI opinion poll getting coverage. Pro-Yasin Malik photograph.. nothing of his ties to the LeT and nothing of his violent past....

Arrests increase pressure on India over Kashmir

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby namit k » 25 Aug 2008 22:02

Gerard wrote:Arundhati's article and the TOI opinion poll getting coverage. Pro-Yasin Malik photograph.. nothing of his ties to the LeT and nothing of his violent past....

Arrests increase pressure on India over Kashmir

guys hurriyat ants are preparing to fly and they are motivated by some anti Indian ants
let them fly and we prepare our own insect killer solutions which will take care of both and that isi parasite in their stings as well,its time to fight for our own freedom once again
JAI HIND

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sum » 25 Aug 2008 22:21

Link

Tough talk from Gen.Sinha (and people are ready to sacrifice him for the turd of the valley!!!)
Kashmir has been Talibanised

JAMMU & KASHMIR
INTERVIEW/LT GEN. (RETD) S.K. SINHA, FORMER GOVERNOR, J&K
By Kallol Bhattacherjee
As Governor of Jammu and Kashmir from June 2003 to May 2008, Lt Gen. (retd) S.K. Sinha aimed at industrial development, winning of hearts and greater openness. It was during his term that Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board was allotted land for putting up temperory shelters for pilgrims. Excerpts from an interview:

Why did you increase the Amarnath yatra's duration?
In 2003, the pilgrimage lasted a month. The year 2004 had what on Hindu calendar is known as a mall mass. That means it had two Shravans. Therefore, it was natural to extend the pilgrimage as the yatra usually takes place in Shravan. But a large number of pilgrims had been coming to Amarnath every year and it was more useful for the administration to stretch the period to administer the flow of pilgrims better. The Nitish Sengupta committee (1996) and Lt Gen. J.R. Mukherjee committee (2000) had suggested increased duration for the yatra.

Did your principal secretary behave arrogantly to the local leaders of Jammu?
He did not. He was completely misinterpreted and the local Kashmiri press put words in his mouth. There is a taped version of his press conference in which he is supposed to have suggested that the land for Amarnath shrine would have permanent structures. He did not say that and the cabinet in Jammu and Kashmir was presented a copy of that tape.

Karan Singh wants the removal of N.N. Vohra as Governor. Do you support him?
Vohra is a friend but the truth is all these problems started in his tenure, and it was he who rescinded the land transfer. After all it was not an exceptional land transfer. Many people have acquired forestland in Kashmir. Even Reliance has acquired land for building communication network. But Kashmiri separatist leaders feel that religious Hindus cannot get land in Kashmir for religious purpose. All over the country, Hajj complexes are coming up but why not have a facility to make the pilgrims comfortable at Amarnath?

Are Kashmiri Muslims completely radicalised now?
There is an environment of religious intolerance in Kashmir. There was ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits from the state but no one talks of them. Kashmir has been Talibanised by the separatists. The secular lobby never condemns the communal politics of Syed Ali Shah Geelani.

Would inviting the Hurriyat to Delhi for talks help the situation?
There are supposed to be two groups in the Hurriyat; the so-called moderates and the so-called extremists. In effect they are all communal and anti-national. They have nothing against foreign tourists coming to the valley but they are allergic to Hindu Indians visiting the valley.

Would the PDP grow mellow?
Mufti Mohammad Sayeed of the PDP is an anti-national and a communal man. Even before he became chief minister, he had a dubious reputation. He did not do anything when Hindu temples were vandalised in Kashmir in the late 1980s. Even his daughter's kidnapping was not exactly a real kidnapping.

Was Rubaiya Sayeed not kidnapped by the militants?
Many believe that it was a stage-managed affair and not an authentic kidnapping by militants.

But it was the PDP that cleared the land for Amarnath pilgrims. Did they suddenly go secular before the issue blew up?
The PDP is a separatist and anti-national organisation and it will play dubious politics always. It is Mufti who carried out the healing touch policy in Kashmir. As a result, India has emerged as the only country that gives pensions to the family of slain militants. Mufti also talked of putting Baglihar power project under the joint control of India and Pakistan, which is simply not acceptable to us.

How do you rate Mehbooba Mufti, who opposes security operations yet celebrates August 15?
She, like her father, is communal and anti-national, and plays opportunistic politics.

Do you think the Nehruvian approach to Kashmir dispute has crumbled?
Nehru was a great man but he had many failures. Thrice we were in a position to capture Muzaffarabad but each time Nehru asked us to withdraw.... Nehru's interventions in military and political affairs were failures.

Do you support a greater say for the armed forces in public life?
I do not want the armed forces to be involved in politics. But I want the excess bureaucratic control to end. The bureaucratic control had ensured that even our only Field Marshal, Sam Manekshaw, did not get the full pay due between 1973 and 2007, when he was counting his last days. Last year, a bureaucrat went to Sam with a cheque for Rs 1 crore in his hospital. When I met Sam, he said, "A babu from Delhi had come and he delivered a cheque for a crore. But I do not know if the cheque would be honoured." These are extremes of bureaucratic control and they should end for the welfare of this country.

My respect for this man has grown manifold after this interview.....

namit k
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby namit k » 25 Aug 2008 22:26

Kashmir has been Talibanised

lets call the americans if we cant destroy secular talibans in kashmir

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 25 Aug 2008 22:36

India has emerged as the only country that gives pensions to the family of slain militants

We are giving such incentives?? :-o


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