J & K news and discussion

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Neshant
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Neshant » 26 Aug 2008 11:48

build one railroad from bihar to kashmir.

problem will be solved.

Neshant
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Neshant » 26 Aug 2008 13:06

I don't think enough attention is being paid to the mass infiltration attempts that have taken place for the last 2 months.

Terrorists are being pumped into the state to take advantage of the amarnath issue. Soon terrorism will begin in ernest and perhaps return to late 90s level.

MMS as usual is impotent.

-----------------

Pak troops fire at BSF posts in Jammu

26 Aug 2008, 0930 hrs IST , Times Now
In another case of ceasefire violation, Pakistani troops fired indiscriminately at the BSF posts in Jammu. Some militants have also reportedly infiltrated into the Indian side.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby namit k » 26 Aug 2008 16:50

guys i think its now enough talking on whats happened,or what is about to happen in jnk
can any one give a few points solution of jnk issue, i.e how we tackle religious polarity, separatism, etc. post any report if present, i think it would be better to start a new thread only of jnk solution :?:

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby vsudhir » 26 Aug 2008 18:03

namit k wrote:guys i think its now enough talking on whats happened,or what is about to happen in jnk
can any one give a few points solution of jnk issue, i.e how we tackle religious polarity, separatism, etc. post any report if present, i think it would be better to start a new thread only of jnk solution :?:


Good point.

Solution lies in treating J&K as a normal state with a terrorist/separatist problem. IOW,

1. Carry out a delimitation exercise based on current registered voter population. The scales tilt in Jammu's favor. It would and should get more seats, political representation also translates to economic clout, more development funds and infrastruc building etc.

2. Biggest advantage though, would be that a non-valley dominated J&K legislature can and will repeal the more odious provision of the J&K accession legislation (such as Art 370). The requirement or even liberty to have a separate flag, prime minister etc can be dissolved permanently. The writ of the Indian SC and of the IPC can be, by law, made operational on all of J&K.

3. Resolution calling for return of Pandits, compensation for lives and property destroyed can also be passed. Enactment of POTA like law for law enforcement and crackdown on secessionist sympathisers and propaganda channels would automatically follow. The possibilities of how much a nationalist J&K legislature can do is enormous indeed!

First get started along this line. The rest is merely logical follow-up.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rupesh » 26 Aug 2008 18:06

unfortunately he happens to be our Home Minister :evil:

With Kashmir on the boil and internal security in a shambles, Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil is the man in the hot seat. Weak laws and weaker intelligence networks are compounded by a lack of will to combat terror. And as terrorists strike at will in places far and wide, everyone is blaming Patil for the mess that his ministry itself is in. He spoke with Editor Prabhu Chawla for a special interview on Headlines Today. Excerpts:

Q. When do you expect a solution to the Amarnath problem?
A. Well. You are asking for a timeframe and when the matters are related to the emotions of the people, we should try to solve them as quickly as possible. But it becomes very difficult to give a timeframe. I think we will be able to solve this matter in a very short time. :lol:

Q. They are hoisting the Pakistani flag in Kashmir. Both sides are getting emotional, attacking each other. You have been trying to bring them together. Where's the hitch?
A. The hitch is in the emotions.( Patil getting more emotional, seems that he has just watched on old hindi movie) It is in the philosophy that some people adopt. The hitch is in thinking that by dividing and by defaming others, we can become more powerful and more effective. The hitch is there.

Q. You mean the divisive tendency of political parties?
A. Not only political parties, but whosoever thinks like that. There can be others too who do not attach importance to the fact that we should not say or show such things that will divide the country. ( like what ?)

Q. Didn't the governments at the local and central levels fail to anticipate events?
A. I am not sitting in judgment. It is for the people to judge. ( they will in a few months time)

Q. The UPA lost power because of this one problem. So many people have died, so there has to be someone who is the villain of the show.
A. The UPA lost the government in order to see that emotions were not affected and unity was not disturbed. You should appreciate that. (we do, more so when you will be kicked out from Delhi )

Q. Ghulam Nabi Azad allotted the forest land and then withdrew it. You lost power because your own supporters withdrew support.
A. I am not going to blame my supporters or my opponents or those who are neither supporters nor opponents. ( Dunno what to say for this comment )

Q. But as home minister, you must be concerned. You must be trying to find a midway.
A. Yes, that is true. Understanding the other side's point of view and getting ready to give something and take something is really very important. That is exactly what we are trying to do. And we have been saying that we would like to accept a formula that is acceptable to both the sides, the people living in Kashmir and the people in Jammu.

Q. Parties should be condemning the Pakistani flag being hoisted in Srinagar.
A. By condemning, you get the pleasure of having abused somebody but you don't solve the problem. I am not in the process of condemning others; I am in the process of understanding others. And trying to solve the problem in whatever fashion it is possible or whatever means is possible. ( why don't you resign as HM and spend your time understanding others ) :mrgreen:

Q. L.K. Advani has sent you a letter suggesting some way out.
A. Advani is the Leader of the Opposition and has been in the government too. We don't take his letter lightly and will examine it and reply. And also discuss this matter with him and try to see how this problem can be solved. :!:

Q. You led an all-party delegation to the state and spent two days there. Do you think there is a possibility of bringing the two sides together?
A. I think nothing is impossible. You may examine the agitations that were started in the neighboring states, maybe Rajasthan, Mumbai, UP, Bihar. Agitations do take place and we shall have to solve the problems, but we cannot say this is the timeframe, do it quickly. That is not the way. We shall have to take everybody on board, everybody to agree to the formula, everybody to agree to the agreement. :((

Q. The attempted march across the LoC is a dangerous phenomenon.
A. This is a disturbing phenomenon and I do think that if some people are doing this probably they do not understand the implication. But at the same time, a majority of the people living in J&K do not appreciate it.

Q. But there is a feeling that somebody is encouraging them from across the border.
A. Again it is a blame game. A person who is in the government should not start talking loosely. We are trying to avoid this. We have people who are examining things and expressing their views because if I say something or the other, tomorrow you will ask how I could make that statement. I am not going to do that kind of a thing.

Q. The use of the land row as an emotional issue should not be allowed.
A. If emotions are aroused, we should see that they are calmed. And then we will ask them to consider this issue in a manner that is helpful to both sides, to everybody.

Q. When the land was allotted, there was an agitation in the Valley. You came under pressure and cancelled the allotment. The people in Jammu got an impression that by agitating a concession could be extracted.
A. Do not say that we are doing it under pressure or we are doing it because we are favouring somebody or opposing somebody. We are doing it to see that peace and tranquility is maintained. You should not forget that in Mizoram, during Rajiv Gandhi's time, the Congress was in power.

The chief minister of the Congress party was asked to resign and the reigns of the government were given to those who were agitating. And today you will find that Mizoram is one of the most peaceful states in the country, and that's because of that kind of an understanding. You would not say that we succumbed to pressure there and what we did was wrong. It was not wrong.

Q. There was no firing then. Like Nagaland happened. Rajiv Gandhi did so many things.
A. That kind of approach did help. That means the approach that tries to take everybody's views into considerations helps. That's exactly what we are trying to do.

Q. In the Amarnath case, do you agree that there is a need for accommodation and sacrifice to find a resolution?
A. I agree there is a need for accommodation. It is necessary to understand each others point of view and evolve a formula that satisfies the demands of both the sides to a great extent. That kind of give and take and understanding is required. And this is exactly what we are trying to do in order to create an understanding between the people holding different views.

Q. But what's happening is that nobody is listening, both in Jammu and in Kashmir.
A. Maybe. You might have seen what happens in other states when you deal with such things patiently. You have seen agitations taking place in different parts of the country. For how many days or months do these agitations continue? In recent times, you must have seen agitations in the neighborhood of Delhi. So you don't have to rush and do things in a manner that creates more problems than solve them.

Q. Pakistan has been trying to divide Jammu & Kashmir. One of your alliance partners, Mehbooba Mufti, is threatening to walk across the border.
A. Wise people always try to understand each other. ( What is he referring to )

Q. Do you think that Pakistan is responsible for the trouble?
A. You are all the time asking me to blame this man or that man. ( we are onlee blaming you )

Q. I am not asking you, the whole country believes so.
A. You believe whatever you think is proper. Don't ask me, a member of the government, to say certain things.

Q. What plans do you have to control terrorism?
A. We are a county of 112 crore. The police-population ratio is adverse and we have to correct it. Our police are trained to control mob, traffic, to investigate, but not to fight a battle against terrorists. We have to train them for that. Then you need to give them the equipment they require. In other countries, it is the defence forces that are fighting against terrorism. ( no commenti )

Q. Are existing laws enough to handle terrorism?
A. The existing provisions are enough to help the police discharge their duty. If there is something that has to be done to change it slightly, there shall be no difficulty.

Q. But the state governments of Andhra (ruled by the Congress), Uttar Pradesh (ruled by the BSP) and some BJP states have asked for certain laws. Don't you think they should be given permission?
A. The existing laws are enough to control terrorist activities and protect human rights. In a country like ours, there are two things to see: one that terrorist or criminal activities are controlled, and the other that innocent people are not put in difficulty and their human rights are protected. There was a time when everybody was talking about human rights. Now everybody has forgotten about human rights and is talking about this thing (terrorism). We should be striking a balance between the two.

Q. In the name of human rights, POTA was withdrawn. But TADA was also misused by previous governments.
A. The same people who opposed TADA and demanded its withdrawal brought in POTA. So why then did they oppose TADA in the first place?

Q. They opposed TADA because they felt it was being misused.
A. Exactly. The same thing happened to the other.

Q. So basically, you are saying that the existing laws are enough. Therefore, the laws asked for by the states shall not be passed.
A. I am not saying that. But until any intelligent person convinces me that this has to be done, I will not.


Q. So far you are not convinced.
A. I am not.

Q. Let me come to Afzal Guru now. The Supreme Court has upheld his death penalty, but his mercy petition is pending with you.
A. It's not pending with me, it's pending with the state government.

Q. The Delhi government?
A. Yes. I am not the boss of the elected Government of Delhi. We are waiting for their reply.

Q. What is the procedure?
A. When the final judgment is given by SC, pronouncing that the person will be hanged, if anybody files a petition to the President, the petition is sent to the home ministry. The ministry sends the petition to the state government. The state government takes a view and sends it back to the home ministry, which sends its views to the President. Then the President takes a view on it.

Q. So in this case, the state government is taking its own time.
A. Yes

Q. What about Naxalism? In the first Seedhi Baat you told me that the threat to India is from economic extremism.
A. The most affected state in the country today is Chhattisgarh. Chhattisgarh is not governed by the party to which I belong, but I do not blame the state government or the chief minister. We have given nearly 15,000 men to Chhattisgarh, we have given 35,000 men and officers to the Naxal-affected states. We have given helicopters and armed vehicles.

Q. These are not used effectively?
A. We have given them, and they shall have to use it. You have to understand that these economic issues are not solved by using the gun. You have to find economic solutions. If there are social issues, then we need social solutions. So social, economic, police and policy-related solutions have to go together. And we cannot ask the state to do it.

Q. You are talking about Chhattisgarh?
A. I am not talking only about Chhattisgarh. I am talking about all the states. The Andhra Pradesh government brought down Naxalite activities by 71 per cent. I am not taking the credit for that. The credit goes to the state. We have been helping them. And those who are just blaming us are not taking into consideration all these factors, the Constitutional position, the kind of help given to them, the kind of money given to them, the kind of policies we have made.

Q. Would you say that Naxalites and terrorists are getting together to create problems?
A. Yes of course, terrorism is a kind of philosophy propounded by some persons who feel that democracy does not help, the economic system does not help, the social system does not help and things have to be changed not by the ballot box but by the bullet. That is a philosophy with which we and the majority of the people do not agree. Out of 112 crore people, 99 per cent are peace-loving.

Q. There is an impression that there is no proper co-ordination between the Centre and state intelligence agencies.
A. You have to understand that we have RAW for external intelligence, IB for domestic and the CID and the special branches in the states. If state intelligence is weak, there is little we can do except to ask them to improve it. Of course, we are giving them funds to modernise.

Q. The states need to upgrade their intelligence.
A. Not only that, they shall have to provide more funds in their budget.

Q: Is there a need for one centralised agency for intelligence purposes?
A. Yes, we have proposed that but the states are not agreeing. Even if I have to send two policemen to a state, I can't do it without their permission. It will definitely help the states act in better coordination.

Q. If there was one agency, you would have been able to tackle things more effectively.
A. I am not of that view. But it will definitely help the governments solve their problem because a man was living in one state, acting in another and hiding in a third state.

Q. The arrests in Ahmedabad blasts have been a major breakthrough.
A. I am not taking credit for this; they have done it. Police from several states acted jointly to arrest the suspects.

Q: Don't you think the Ahmedabad model is the way ahead?
A. I have not criticized the model. But you are trying to get some kudos for them. If you'll be happy I'll give you. I told you that in Malegaon they have done it, in Mumbai they have done it, in Banaras they have done it. If you want I can give you a list of cases where they have done it. And chargesheets have been filed and the people who have been arrested are not arrested in their states. Somebody has been arrested on the border of Bangladesh and Nepal. They have done well. We are happy that they have succeeded.

Q. What is the way forward to tackling terrorism?
A. The way forward is doing economic justice, and then being all the time vigilant that terrorism does not take advantage and then preparing our forces to cope up with them using modern weapons and modern technology

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... leteview=1

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 26 Aug 2008 18:38

Shivraj Patil is simply a symptom
It is hindus who voted for the UPA based on caste considerations
fully aware that part of the bargain was to throw India open to EJs, naxals and Jihadis

It is the open secret,
that hindus are willing to sacrifice other hindus if their caste can get a short term benefit

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby SBajwa » 26 Aug 2008 19:07

Withering away inch by inch.... Riots don't solve anything but appeasing a belligerent minority is a another extension of the same ancient policy.

Why didn't Prithvi pursue Ghauri?

Why didn't Rajputs eat food cooked with beef laced water in the next battle?

Why didn't all kingdoms of India got together against Qutubdeen and later against Mughals?

Why didn't Indians stopped mughals from letting them celebrate holi and diwali in cities of mughal india?

Why didn't Indians sacrificed in huge numbers to keep Kashmir a non-muslim majority area during the rule of Aurungzeb?

Why did Indians let Pakistan be created in 1947?

Why did Indians declared Ceasefire (when winning the war) after Raja of Kashmir had aligned himself with India by signing instrument of accession just like other 572 princes of British india?

Why didn't Indians finished the war in 1965 and gave away hard fought land at Tashkent?

Why didn't Indians finished the war in 1971 and launch an offensive in west too?

why didn't Indians went across the border in 1999 Kargil war?

If you still can't see the pattern then keep your head fixated in sand., otherwise open your eyes and do something.

samuel
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby samuel » 26 Aug 2008 19:35

Right, throughout our history, as accessible through currently and commonly available literature, a familiar sequence takes root. We fight a battle or a war, we usually win the first round. Then we are happy to let em have a rematch! They kept coming back for more and all it took was for us to lose one match and the game ceases to exist!

That is what is happening in Kashmir too, the way I see it.

There are various names to this phenomenon, take your pick. I call it the Grand Indian Bonk. Whatever you call it, however, it isn't cowardice. But it doesn't appear to be a smart strategy either, though we have no examples of other civilizations who have done differently and survived this long (and that does not mean I am proposing it be continued!).

We need to terminate the Grand Indian Bonk with the Grand Indian Kiss. We need to be paranoid about our survival and we need others to see that we are paranoid about our survival and that as long as they do not get in our way, we'll be fine and thus, they'll be fine.

Kashmir needs the Grand Indian Kiss.

- Resettle people from POK there, inching in from Jammu.
- Change the demographics of Kashmir within a decade by repealing 370.
- Target terrorist camps across the border, overtly or covertly.
- Pick a fight with Pakistan in the next 10 years and prepare for it now. This time, let our rightful indignation not cease with a victory.

The reality of fixing the situation can be simple if we listen to our basic instincts for survival better.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby JwalaMukhi » 26 Aug 2008 19:55

Rupesh wrote: unfortunately he happens to be our Home Minister :evil:
Q. But as home minister, you must be concerned. You must be trying to find a midway.
A. Yes, that is true. Understanding the other side's point of view and getting ready to give something and take something is really very important. That is exactly what we are trying to do. And we have been saying that we would like to accept a formula that is acceptable to both the sides, the people living in Kashmir and the people in Jammu.
http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... leteview=1

Now, now why is the hesitation. How come the home minister is having communication gap with his boss the Prime Minister. The Hon'ble selected (no less, Selection Process is tough to yield the elite of the elite) Prime Ministerji (unlike others who had the temerity and indecency of not being selected, but winning some elections in obscure constituency) has clearly spelt out that who should have the first right on the resources of the country. What the Hon'ble home minister needs to do is carefully listen to his superior and implement them. Which would mean to give the party having the first right to resources the give portion and for the take portion convince others that the thinking of the elite of the elite is correct and hence hammer that thought into them as the take home message. That completes the give and take part of the solution.

namit k
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby namit k » 26 Aug 2008 20:23

SBajwa wrote:Withering away inch by inch.... Riots don't solve anything but appeasing a belligerent minority is a another extension of the same ancient policy.

Why didn't Prithvi pursue Ghauri?

Why didn't Rajputs eat food cooked with beef laced water in the next battle?

Why didn't all kingdoms of India got together against Qutubdeen and later against Mughals?

Why didn't Indians stopped mughals from letting them celebrate holi and diwali in cities of mughal india?

Why didn't Indians sacrificed in huge numbers to keep Kashmir a non-muslim majority area during the rule of Aurungzeb?

Why did Indians let Pakistan be created in 1947?

Why did Indians declared Ceasefire (when winning the war) after Raja of Kashmir had aligned himself with India by signing instrument of accession just like other 572 princes of British india?

Why didn't Indians finished the war in 1965 and gave away hard fought land at Tashkent?

Why didn't Indians finished the war in 1971 and launch an offensive in west too?

why didn't Indians went across the border in 1999 Kargil war?

If you still can't see the pattern then keep your head fixated in sand., otherwise open your eyes and do something.

we actually didnt do anything
we are proud people showing this world humanity that we are a sanatan people , that we change with time, that if someone kicks us and says become brutal ,medieval we do so,
if someone kicks us and says that become westernized, forgot your civilization (which was best at a time) , show a live mockery of your own history &its gems, we do so bcoz we show we are sanatan people, but since long time there had been a gradual difference in perception here, actually - WE WERE SUPPOSED TO CHANGE TIME EARLIER,BUT,WE CAN DO IT NOW
thats being sanatan-
-just a small difference in self realisation :D

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby svinayak » 26 Aug 2008 21:18

JwalaMukhi wrote:
Rupesh wrote: unfortunately he happens to be our Home Minister :evil:
Q. But as home minister, you must be concerned. You must be trying to find a midway.
A. Yes, that is true. Understanding the other side's point of view and getting ready to give something and take something is really very important. That is exactly what we are trying to do. And we have been saying that we would like to accept a formula that is acceptable to both the sides, the people living in Kashmir and the people in Jammu.
http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... leteview=1

Now, now why is the hesitation. How come the home minister is having communication gap with his boss the Prime Minister. The Hon'ble selected (no less, Selection Process is tough to yield the elite of the elite) Prime Ministerji (unlike others who had the temerity and indecency of not being selected, but winning some elections in obscure constituency) has clearly spelt out that who should have the first right on the resources of the country. What the Hon'ble home minister needs to do is carefully listen to his superior and implement them. Which would mean to give the party having the first right to resources the give portion and for the take portion convince others that the thinking of the elite of the elite is correct and hence hammer that thought into them as the take home message. That completes the give and take part of the solution.


These are not leaders but just managers. Managers do not how to lead and find solutions.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Tamang » 26 Aug 2008 22:13


kvjayan
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby kvjayan » 26 Aug 2008 23:32

"The word secular is missing from the preamble of the J & K constitution and a bill introduced by a private member to incorparate this was referred to a select committee and nothing was done beyond that."

Interesting comment from a reader in "Outlook".

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Kakkaji » 27 Aug 2008 00:07

Is namit K a new avataar of SaiK? :-?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 27 Aug 2008 00:18

Has the Indian DDM commented onthe NSA's disclosure that Sri Aziz was shot by the Hurryiat folks and not by police? I would expect some comments from Kashmir Times or some such paper.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby svinayak » 27 Aug 2008 01:36

The Sangh is driving us out’
DNA
Saturday, August 16, 2008 23:05 IST


Have you changed the course of land agitation to secessionism?

The land issue is a closed chapter after the order was revoked. Now Kashmir is demanding azadi. And it should be seen in the historic background where in Kashmir has been given a right to decide their fate. We want this right to be accepted.

People in Jammu say there is no economic blockade. What do you say?

We have suffered huge losses that have impacted the fruit sector because trucks were looted and drivers were beaten up; some even brunt. People are suffering and that is why we want Srinagar-Muzaffarbad road to be reopened because it has become essential for us not to rely on Jammu-Srinagar highway.

You have accused the Jammu agitators of communalism

The Sangh Parivar is in full force in Jammu. Muslims homes have been burnt. Several Muslim families are being forced to migrate and Muslim drivers were burnt at some places.

— Syed Ali Shah Geelani, who heads the hardline faction of the Hurriyat spoke to DNA


Even Muslims support us’
DNA
Sunday, August 17, 2008 04:04 IST


The land row has triggered off communal passions in Jammu. What is your view?

It is a canard being spread that the Jammu agitation is a communal struggle. For the last 46 days, there has been no communal violence. One incident at Kashtiwar needs to be probed. Muslims support our struggle because they feel an injustice has been done to people in Jammu.

Is it a struggle of Jammu versus Kashmir?

People in Jammu are nationalists and we carry the tricolour in our hands. In Kashmir, people openly unfurl Pakistani flags and chant anti-India slogans. Still, the Centre believes in appeasement and ignores Jammu.

The perception in Kashmir is that you have enforced economic blockade?

There is no economic blockade. It is an attempt by separatists in Kashmir to divert the attention from the real issue for their vested interests.

— Professor Narendra Singh, member of the Shri Amarnath Sangrash Simiti (SASS)
spoke to DNA

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 27 Aug 2008 01:55

Op-Ed in Pioneer, 26 August 2008

Separatism is unacceptable

Claude Arpi

In the past fortnight, several senior commentators have decided it is time to accept the separatists' demand for self-determination in the Kashmir Valley. One commentator has written, "As a liberal, I dislike ruling people against their will... Let Kashmiris decide the outcome, not the politicians and Armies of India and Pakistan... The parallels between British rule in India and Indian rule in Kashmir have become too close for my comfort."

Such reasoning is fallacious. To "dislike ruling people against their will" is not reason enough to let parts of India secede. Don't you think that the people of Arunachal Pradesh often feel neglected by the rulers in Delhi who decide their future without consulting them and 'against their will'? Any 'liberal' (if he/she is honest) will apply the same reasoning to the entire North-East. Should these States also secede? In the 1980s, the Khalistanis in Punjab also felt that Delhi was ruling them 'against their will'. Should Punjab have become independent?

As for the 'promised' plebiscite, which is being resurrected by 'liberal' commentators, the UN resolutions of August 1948 and January 1949 were clear and specific. The proposed plebiscite was for all the regions of Jammu & Kashmir. Further it was conditional to the Pakistani troops withdrawing from all the areas it had occupied in the State; and, second, Pakistan withdrawing its tribesmen and nationals not ordinarily resident in these areas from the entire State.

For the UN, there was no question of first changing the demography of the occupied areas. To hold a plebiscite after the Kashmir Valley has been cleansed of its Hindu population will only encourage secessionists and terrorists to use similar tactics in other parts of India.

Another eminent columnist has written, "If you believe in democracy, then giving Kashmiris the right to self-determination is the correct thing to do... This is India's century. We have the world to conquer -- and the means to do it. Kashmir is a 20th century problem. We cannot let it drag us down and bleed us as we assume our rightful place in the world." This merits only one comment: If India is further dismembered, it is doubtful that the 21st century will be India's century. Allowing Kashmiris to secede is certain to become a precedent for others in India to 'democratically' ask for their right to self-determination.

Similar to the position taken by our 'liberals' has been that of the foreign media which has reacted to the recent troubles with its old prediction that 'Kashmir will soon be lost for India". DIE?} Le Monde quotes Ahmed, a young Kashmiri, as saying, "I prefer to die in the streets shouting 'Long Live Free Kashmir' than in an isolated confinement after being tortured (by the Indian Army)." Ahmed's friends, says Le Monde, threw stones at security forces while screaming, "Indians are dogs." Then, referring to Abhinav Bindra's gold medal, Ahmed says, "But it is in Kashmir that Indians are the best shooters."

Le Figaro, in an article headlined "Kashmir bye-bye?", its correspondent spoke of the "beauty of the Valley which nobody questions, though some in India have nonetheless begun to ask themselves if the future of their great democracy is to keep four million Kashmiris against their will. It is a new tune!" The correspondent, however, asked a relevant question: "Why has the Government in New Delhi kept silent and inactive for so long when the tension had already started mounting in July?"

The problem is not only the poor leadership of the rulers in Delhi, though nobody can deny that the present crisis has been created by the inept handling of the situation, but also the wily leadership in the Kashmir Valley.

If one looks at the history of Jammu & Kashmir, one realises that whenever the Valley has been stricken by famine, war or invasion, it was due to the poor leadership and despotism of its kings, sultans and maharajas. The Chinese pilgrim Hsuan-tsang has described Kashmiris thus: "They are volatile and timid; they are good-looking, but deceitful."

The history of Kashmir is a succession of alternating periods when just and fair rulers made the Valley a 'Paradise on Earth' and times when "people were treated as grass", to quote the historian Srivara, one of the authors of Rajatarangini. He describes one of these periods during the 15th century when "accepting bribes was considered by the officers as virtue, oppressing the subjects was regarded as wisdom and the addiction to wine and women was reckoned as happiness".

Take the more recent example of Sheikh Abdullah, described by historian S Gopal as "Nehru's old friend, colleague and blood-brother." Sheikh Abdullah was chosen by Jawaharlal Nehru in January 1948 to plead India's case in the UN. Though a member of the official Indian delegation to Lake Success, Abdullah had a secret meeting with US Ambassador Austin, who reported to the US Secretary of State, "It is possible that the principal purpose of Abdullah's visit was to make clear to US that there is a third alternative, namely independence... He made quite a long and impassioned statement on the subject. He said in effect that whether Kashmir went to Pakistan or India, the other dominion would always be against a solution... (Kashmir) is a rich country. He did not want his people torn by dissension between Pakistan and India. It would be much better if Kashmir were independent and could seek American and British aid for development of the country" Thus was the seed 'azadi' planted by Nehru's 'blood-brother'.

Adlai Stevenson came to Srinagar to meet Abdullah in May 1953. The creation of an independent 'Sheikdom of Kashmir' was the purpose of the visit. This would perfectly suit American interests by checking the advances of the Chinese in Xinjiang and the Russians in Afghanistan. A 'non-aligned' Nehru could not be considered a reliable ally. At that time, The New York Times published a map hinting at an independent status for the Valley and a few days later, Abdullah asserted in a speech, "It is not necessary that our State should become an appendage of either India or Pakistan."

This habit of saying something one day and doing the opposite the next has been characteristic of most of the leaders of Jammu & Kashmir for the past 60 years. Sheikh Abdullah's grandson, Mr Omar Abdullah, recently said in Parliament, "We fought for our land and will continue to fight for our land till our last breath." This same person shamelessly sides with those who say that Hindus are trying to change the demography of the Kashmir Valley by erecting some temporary structures for pilgrims.

With a vacillating Centre, a weak Governor, a father-and-daughter duo always ready to pull the carpet from under their partner's feet and the secessionists back in the news after several years, the State of Jammu & Kashmir seems doomed. But not if India were to stand firm and resist those who wish to see the country disintegrate.


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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby mayurav » 27 Aug 2008 01:57

Why is Prof. Narendra Singh emphasizing that "even Moslims support us"? He is unsure of the legitimacy of Hindu interests? And what is this obsession with waving the tricolor? Hindus need to realize that the Indian state and its flag are secular. Waving it is not going to protect hindu interests. The fight should be to accord primacy to Hindus in J&K and outlaw Islam. Fight should be to make J&K a Hindu Rajya. And Geelani can stay only if he converts to Hinduism.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby namit k » 27 Aug 2008 02:04

http://www.nancarrow-webdesk.com/warehouse/storage2/2008-w19/img.217187.html
Stagg is currently touring the troubled Kashmir region and is meeting pro-India and separatist leaders besides other human rights activists.

what was he doing there, seems like there are many 'bookies' in this jnk cricket match,cant ignore the role of unkil/uk either, they are very silent against pak nowadays in terms of India and their media is highlighting this issue very seriously, we have to be cautious , as pak may be using this issue as a human rights violation , grounds to pamper nuclear deal, somehow a desperate attempt to pressure India, whats cooking :!: :!:


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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 27 Aug 2008 02:40

British High Commissioner in India Sir Stagg speaks during meeting with leaders of Kashmir's Hurriyat Conference in Srinagar


By doing this, they are killing Indians.
The US and UK use the promise of help with Cashmere to advance their interests with Pakistan. By providing hope of outside help, they sustain the jihad.

The ambassador of a foreign nation openly meeting with separatists?

Only in India.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby namit k » 27 Aug 2008 02:50


same thing as i speculated, we must keep on developing nuke tech on our own, nuke deal passes or not is a separate issue :!:
gerard sir link is not working

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 27 Aug 2008 02:59

Toronto based Kashmiri Liberation leader, Farooq Siddiqi has appealed to the Nuclear Supply Group (NSG) countries to take cognisance of how Indian democracy is responding to the peaceful protesters in occupied Kashmir.


Oddly enough, Pakistanis still believe an outside power is going to give them Kashmir.

They appeal to the UN, the OIC, the US, the UK, the EU, China, OPEC, now the NSG.
None of these has the blood or treasure to wrest Kashmir from India and history has shown that they will abandon Pakistan at the drop of a hat.
A never-ending search for external balancers, over decades.

And still Pakistanis believe....

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby namit k » 27 Aug 2008 03:06

Gerard wrote:
Toronto based Kashmiri Liberation leader, Farooq Siddiqi has appealed to the Nuclear Supply Group (NSG) countries to take cognisance of how Indian democracy is responding to the peaceful protesters in occupied Kashmir.


Oddly enough, Pakistanis still believe an outside power is going to give them Kashmir.

They appeal to the UN, the OIC, the US, the UK, the EU, China, OPEC, now the NSG.
None of these has the blood or treasure to wrest Kashmir from India and history has shown that they will abandon Pakistan at the drop of a hat.
A never-ending search for external balancers, over decades.

And still Pakistanis believe....

i have heard somewhere that the kashmiri separatists teach people there, that kashmir can fly from this part to north america near california if its given'azaadi' from India, poor chaps realised this after watching superman movie and they thought superman was jinnah :rotfl:

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby svinayak » 27 Aug 2008 03:31

Image

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby svinayak » 27 Aug 2008 04:12


Centre following appeasement policy to strengthen its vote bank: Jaitely


Staff Reporter

NEW DELHI: Accusing the Central Government of not being serious about finding a solution to the escalating violence in Jammu and Kashmir, senior Bharatiya Janata Party leader Arun Jaitely has said it was following a policy of appeasement to strengthen its vote bank.

Participating in a discussion on “Special Status to Jammu and Kashmir and Amarnath Shrine Land Issue” organised by the Delhi Study Group, Mr. Jaitely said: “The violence in Jammu has the entire country worried and yet again the Central Government has proved that it has failed the nation on the political, economic and national security fronts. But today we want to know if the Central Government can keep the country together. The Government seems to be at a complete loss.” Demanding that the land be restored to the Shrine Board, the BJP leader said the Centre did not seem to be keen on a solution.

“It seems that they were afraid of annoying the separatists who have been saying that the land given to the Shrine Board would be used for Hindu colonisation. We are surprised that this type of a malicious campaign was allowed by intelligence agencies and senior State leaders,” said Mr. Jaitely.
Dialogue

He added that the Central Government should call for dialogue aimed at finding a lasting solution.



BJP criticises journalists and writers


Special Correspondent

NEW DELHI: Those who were now talking about India giving ‘azadi’ to Kashmir should also answer whether they would prescribe the same formula to other groups demanding freedom like in Assam, the Bharatiya Janata Party said here on Tuesday.

Referring to recent articles written by Arundhati Roy and “other writers and journalists” suggesting that the time may have come for India to take a call on Kashmir, BJP spokesperson Ravi Shankar Prasad said these people must also know that in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir and the so-called Azad Kashmir there was “no freedom, no democracy, no representation, no freedom of the press but discrimination against those Kashmiris who had gone to PoK from the Indian side.”

He quoted from a report of the European Parliament dated April 25, 2007 that acknowledged Pakistan’s training, arming and funding of Kashmiri militants. It had also noted that Islamabad “failed to hold militants accountable for atrocities they have committed on the Indian-administered side.”

The report referred to the devolution of democratic structures at all levels on the Indian side while the Pakistan side lacked full implementation of democracy and had “yet to take steps towards democracy in Gilgit and Baltistan.”

Mr. Prasad said those crying about ‘azadi’ should also note that while in India, Kashmir is protected by a special status spelt out in Article 370 of the Constitution, there was no such protection for PoK or other parts of Pakistan or China-administered Kashmir. He added that in fact efforts were on in PoK to change the demography.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 27 Aug 2008 04:45

GeNext finds azaadi, stone in hand
By the age of five, Ahmad could repeat most of the azaadi slogans blaring from the minarets of the Hazratbal shrine but was too young to understand what they meant.
“I am an engineering student in Delhi and have to return. But before that I want to participate in another protest. With the CRPF men standing outside my home round the clock, it seems next to impossible,” he said.
“When you are in Delhi, you are viewed with suspicion. There are, of course, good people but you have to convince everybody that you have no militant connection. You don’t get a flat and when you do, the rates are exorbitant,” he said.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 27 Aug 2008 04:50

“We have seen curfews before but this time the security forces are being particularly ruthless, preventing us from even stepping out of our homes. They are not in the least bothered whether we have food at home,” said Ghulam Fatima, a retired government teacher, in Bohri Kadal.


"We are Pakistan and Pakistan is us" should surely fill the belly...

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 27 Aug 2008 05:30

Rahul M wrote:Acharya, why are posting articles from the fictitous character abdur ruff colachal ??
it is a well known fraud scheme and more than one "liberal" author ghost write for this entity.

FWIW, there is no such person at JNU.

here is the idiot celebrating paki victory over India in cricket. no "research scholar" in International Relations worth his salt is going to do that. just read it and the paki in him gets clearer by the minute.
http://abdulruff.wordpress.com/2008/06/ ... -colachal/



Colachel is a town on the kerala coast and this guy is likely a kerala muslim

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 27 Aug 2008 05:31

shiv wrote:
Gerard wrote:Monumental follyThis disoriented silence is understandable. The Nehruvian project rested on the assumption that the emotional foundations of India would become unshakeable if the Muslim minority were allowed a generous measure of separateness and firewalled from the intrusions of both the secular state and civil society.


The Indian state has put no pressure or very little pressure on Indian Muslims to join the world in the type of education and work required to build an advanced nation. Muslims have been allowed to live "poster boy" Islamic lives in a strange clone of la la land in india just to show that Muslims could be more Islamic in India than in Pakistan.

And Jammu and Kashmir has had the most extreme of this kid glove treatment. We have tens of millions of poor and landless people who migrate from places like Bihar to anywhere for jobs and we keep a whole Indian state, Kashmir insulated from Indians so that Pakistan and other extremist can thrive. Shame on the Indian state. Let other Indians in.

Let 25 milliion Indian resettle in Kashmir and then start talking separatism. Pah! :twisted:



OK Shiv, who is going to settle in an islamic oil droplet ?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby RamaY » 27 Aug 2008 05:35

OK Shiv, who is going to settle in an islamic oil droplet ?


I offer any Hindu family willing to settle in Jammu & Kashmir 5 Lakh rupees. Seriously....

I think this is the only way at the beginning.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 27 Aug 2008 05:41

RamaY wrote:
OK Shiv, who is going to settle in an islamic oil droplet ?


I offer any Hindu family willing to settle in Jammu & Kashmir 5 Lakh rupees. Seriously....

I think this is the only way at the beginning.


What I am saying is that first hindus must learn to settle in islamic droplets like
Shivaji nagar bangalore or old city hyderabad
and face daily riots

Only when this art is mastered, can we think of resettling kashmir

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 27 Aug 2008 07:01

No one wants to take a chance after the incident on July 28 when Pakistani troops crossed the line of control and killed one Indian soldier.

"That day in the garb of initiating a flag meeting, the Pakistani patrol surrounded my troops, once they opened fire, we effectively engaged them and killed 7 Pakistanis including an officer," said Colonel M K S Rawat, Commanding Officer, 22 Rajput Regiment.


link
Excuse me pakilurkers, when porki army get halaled by Kafir army, do they get 72 houris or 72 goats?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Sumeet » 27 Aug 2008 07:31

G Subramaniam wrote:
shiv wrote:
Gerard wrote:Monumental follyThis disoriented silence is understandable. The Nehruvian project rested on the assumption that the emotional foundations of India would become unshakeable if the Muslim minority were allowed a generous measure of separateness and firewalled from the intrusions of both the secular state and civil society.


The Indian state has put no pressure or very little pressure on Indian Muslims to join the world in the type of education and work required to build an advanced nation. Muslims have been allowed to live "poster boy" Islamic lives in a strange clone of la la land in india just to show that Muslims could be more Islamic in India than in Pakistan.

And Jammu and Kashmir has had the most extreme of this kid glove treatment. We have tens of millions of poor and landless people who migrate from places like Bihar to anywhere for jobs and we keep a whole Indian state, Kashmir insulated from Indians so that Pakistan and other extremist can thrive. Shame on the Indian state. Let other Indians in.

Let 25 milliion Indian resettle in Kashmir and then start talking separatism. Pah! :twisted:



OK Shiv, who is going to settle in an islamic oil droplet ?


Immediate families of all of our soldiers and army men who are already stationed there. This is just the beginning.

Simultaneously start populating Ladakh and Jammu heavily with hindus, sikhs, buddhists, christians and jains. Once thats accomplished use this as a launch pad for changing demograhpics in kashmir valley. The army men with their family members already there can help out.

At this time you can recall all Kashmiri pandits to the valley.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rahul M » 27 Aug 2008 08:04

G Subramaniam wrote:
Rahul M wrote:Acharya, why are posting articles from the fictitous character abdur ruff colachal ??
it is a well known fraud scheme and more than one "liberal" author ghost write for this entity.

FWIW, there is no such person at JNU.

here is the idiot celebrating paki victory over India in cricket. no "research scholar" in International Relations worth his salt is going to do that. just read it and the paki in him gets clearer by the minute.
http://abdulruff.wordpress.com/2008/06/ ... -colachal/



Colachel is a town on the kerala coast and this guy is likely a kerala muslim

G Sub, this author has been analyzed to death. there is no way this is a real person. just having a plausible name doesn't make it a real person.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 27 Aug 2008 08:52

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Jammu_on_high_alert_militants_kill_five/articleshow/3410040.cms
Jammu on high alert; militants kill five

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/terrorists- ... 253-3.html
Terrorists kill armyman, take 3 kids hostage


Our worst fears have come true. I have no words to describe how I feel. India should expel porki ambassador and end diplomatic ties till they stop infiltrating mercenaries and firing at LoC

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Victor » 27 Aug 2008 09:43

Very likely the pakis are going to light a major fire in the valley before Sept 5 to torpedo the nuke deal on India's terms. NSG/USA may be complicit if they see that they won't get what they want via normal paper trickery because Indians can read and won't blink. Ditto with Khandamal in Orissa. Jehadis--evan and others--being switched on full blast. Hence brit embassador visiting the valley (can't believe the dilli eunuchs allowed that! :evil: did they have an "interpreter" at least?)

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Neshant » 27 Aug 2008 11:15

Jammu on high alert; militants kill five
Terrorists kill armyman, take 3 kids hostage


As I am predicting, this is a start of a major terrorist campaign. Keep your eyes on the next few months :

"Terrorists are being pumped into the state to take advantage of the amarnath issue. Soon terrorism will begin in ernest and perhaps return to late 90s level."

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Sumeet » 27 Aug 2008 11:33

so what will be the objective now ?? To cleanse Hindus from Jammu now.

and if India retaliates then J&K situation gets internationalized.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby jamwal » 27 Aug 2008 11:40

Bharati wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Jammu_on_high_alert_militants_kill_five/articleshow/3410040.cms
Jammu on high alert; militants kill five

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/terrorists- ... 253-3.html
Terrorists kill armyman, take 3 kids hostage


Our worst fears have come true. I have no words to describe how I feel. India should expel porki ambassador and end diplomatic ties till they stop infiltrating mercenaries and firing at LoC

According to local TV channles. one militant is dead. 2 still hiding in a house with hostages.


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