J & K news and discussion

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VikramS
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by VikramS »

Rangudu wrote:Don't get too complacent. See this statement by that terrorist Geelani:
So surprised is he by the turnout that he even speculates whether non-violence was a factor. “The gun is also an important factor of the (freedom) movement and if this factor falls silent, the movement suffers and it has suffered,” he say
My view is that they actually believed in their "non-violent" bullshit for a while. Now they will probably figure it out.
They will use whatever is available. With the LOC fencing and extensive patrolling, the inflow of terrorists has reduced as has the amount of weapons. The security forces have become better and smarter in dealing with the pigs too.

So after cleaning the valley of non-Muslims, they now turn to non-violent protest; only to discover that non-violence only works when there is an across-board agreement. In rural parts of Kashmir and communities like the Gujjar's the jehadis have significantly less hold. The Hurry-rats overestimated their support without the guns.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Manmeet »

Amarnath agitation rewards Jammu well :D
Recent poll trends show that BJP is doing very well in assembly elections and there is a strong hope for them to get atleast 15 seats.
If they join hands with JKNPP (panthers party) in forming strong oppositon, they can command decision making of the state very well....

This election is dedicated to BJP and the people of Jammu....
Well done ! :)
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by jamwal »

Airavat wrote:Did you vote?

What do people on the ground say in Jammu....I heard from a friend that there were lots of Congress flags in the city during the elections. Is it because Congress leaders in Jammu defied the Delhi leadership and supported the Amarnath agitation?
I wasn't able to vote. My name was missing from the electoral list along with my mother's :x . Rest of the family and most of friends didn't vote for NC, PDP or Congress. That's some consolation
Yes. Most of Congress politicianss supported the agitation and this will probably help them survive in some areas. There are all types of flags, Congress, BJP, Independeants and small parties. Congress stickers and flags are more visible due to large amount of money bing spent. I've never seen so much money being spent in elections

ShauryaT wrote:
The mainstream political parties have also toed a “soft separatist” line to woo voters, he thinks, and people fell to this “dirty trick” that included promises of “self rule” and “autonomy.”
Seen from an Indian perspective, this is an alarming situation. The PDP and NC are in a race to woo the separatist tendencies of the population. Is that the message?
NC isn't like PDP. They may harp on Islamic idea for a while to garner some votes but overall they realise that Azadi or Pakisatan are bad for them.


Results of 58 out of 87 seats

10--BJP
19--NC
10--Congress
14--PDP
5--Others

BJP is leading on 7 seats
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Ardeshir »

Rise of BJP in J&K worrying sign: Azad
Former Jammu and Kashmir [Images] Chief Minister Gulam Nabi Azad on Sunday said the 'rise' of the Bharatiya Janata Party in the state was a worrying sign.'

Coverage: J&K Assembly Elections

"It does worry me. These trends are the outcome of unfortunate things happened in July and August. The question is that secularism is getting shrunk at the cost of development," Azad said, adding that it should be 'a worry for each and every Indian'.

"The rise of BJP in the border state which is facing terrorism is a worrying factor for the entire country," he said.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ezra »

ezra wrote:
fanne wrote:So the new conspiracy by UPA to give away Kashmir is, let NC and PDP win majority, pass a resolution in K assembly on independence and then UPA can say, hey they got independence, we did not give them. With a willing Obama, that would be a possibility. That would be Sonia Maino and IMF's ManMohan parting gift to India.
India is a secular country where all religions enjoy equal status and would exist in harmony were it not for the interference of outside forces.

Since a huge Muslim population chose to remain in India after separation is indicative of the fact that Pakistan was given to large a terroritory to form an exclusively Muslim country, East and West Pakistan. This is bourne out by the fact that Pakistan has given away a part of Kasmir it occupies to the Chinese and is unable to govern the present territory under its control, the so called tribal areas where lawless and terrorist elements reign, threatening world peace.

The fact that India owns the whole of Kasmir is an undisputable fact. The solution to the Kasmir issue is for the people of Pakistan to separate themselves further like east Pakistan did and to hand back control of the part of Kashmir it occupies voluntarily which will in any event have to be taken back by India one way or the other.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by tripathi »

^^Is india truly secular or it just the secular in name,constitution. india was never secular in practice.ergo u can call india is p-sec.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Rishi »

Code: Select all

National Conference	28	
Peoples Democratic Party	21	
Indian National Congress	17	
Bharatiya Janata Party	11	
 National Panthers Party	3	
Communist Party of India (Marxist)	1	
Jammu & Kashmir Democratic Party Nationalist	1	
People's Democratic Front	1	
Independents	4	
Total	87	0	87
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Airavat »

Interesting figures.

Congress-I at 17 is down only 3 seats from last time; it seems in Jammu city they only won the Gandhinagar constituency. And yet the BJP gained 10 seats, which means that their candidates must have beaten NC-PDP in at least 7 seats.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by disha »

Airavat wrote:Interesting figures.

Congress-I at 17 is down only 3 seats from last time; it seems in Jammu city they only won the Gandhinagar constituency. And yet the BJP gained 10 seats, which means that their candidates must have beaten NC-PDP in at least 7 seats.
Overall NC got the same figures and PDP Iimproved its tally. BJP and PDP improved at the cost of independents and Congress. NC and PDP never had a sway in Jammu region, last time it was Jammu which propelled Congress to the forefront.

On the positive side, this fractured verdict is a big slap on the face of the Hurryrats. Further, PDP cannot go back to the plank of "secession-ism" and Congress cannot be seen supporting it. Congress has to toe NC's line or sit in opposition. If NC plays its cards well, it can lead a minority government and concentrate on development. That is where the danger is and the opportunity lies. It is all in NC's hands to get development jump started in J&K. BJP has taken the right attitude of sitting in Opposition, since all they have to do now is play the watch dog to the hilt.

Another silver lining, with NC and PDP as the majority if J&K lags behind in development, it will not be automatically the fault of India! The center just has to show that. Meanwhile if the Hurryrats go back to violent means, they would lose everything. They neither have a say, nor a mandate and can be exposed as sore losers. Them holding back J&K development, will further sharpen the urban and rural dviide and the call of "azaadi" is shrillest in the Urban areas!

All in all a satisfying outcome.

PS: This also puts the Obama dogs in manger 8)
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Vikram_S »

Prasant wrote:Rise of BJP in J&K worrying sign: Azad
Former Jammu and Kashmir [Images] Chief Minister Gulam Nabi Azad on Sunday said the 'rise' of the Bharatiya Janata Party in the state was a worrying sign.'

Coverage: J&K Assembly Elections

"It does worry me. These trends are the outcome of unfortunate things happened in July and August. The question is that secularism is getting shrunk at the cost of development," Azad said, adding that it should be 'a worry for each and every Indian'.

"The rise of BJP in the border state which is facing terrorism is a worrying factor for the entire country," he said.
another example of UPA politician trying to fool/scare population using bogeyword of secularism.

fellow wont admit kashmir problem is partly due to so called secular parties who also did nothing when kashmiri pandit were killed and made to get out from own state of kashmir.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Hindu editorial claims that the "more right-wing than BJP" Jammu State Morcha split away from the BJP just before the 2002 elections. And the Hindu votes in Jammu got split, and hence BJP which could have won 8-9 seats had this union be normal won only 1 seat. In this elections, despite a coalition of sorts between JSM and BJP being off, there was mobilization in terms of BJP due to Amarnath since the Amarnath Sangarsh Committee chose to remain above politics. 11 is a gain from 1, but the gain should have been more. There were many close contests in the Jammu area where the Congress folks won. AFAIK, there were 37 seats available in the Jammu part. BJP should look onwards, a gain nonetheless, but not revolutionary enough...

The problematic part as I see seems to be around the Srinagar area and its surroundings. It is a PDP dominated area. Soft separatism is an euphemistic tag for the PDP. In fact, they might be more than that. Cleansing the Srinagar area of jehadis or their representatives, soft or hard, is the goal along with enveloping the Jammu area into a cogent whole, irrespective of party line. Seems like many who won in the Jammu area, not necessarily BJP guys alone, were supporting the ASC. Thats a change even from 2002. Maybe someone more informed can confirm.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by satya »

APHC has served the purpose well for its masters , the agenda that was carried by APHC is now being carried by PDP & NC in short separatists agenda has become more or less mainstream political parties agenda , now this is the transition of separatism to mainstream but their agenda remains same . Need to watch closely the policy formulation & implementation by this new govt. in J&K . Somehow J&K seems like a lab for fine tuning certain strategies to be implements globally . Rarely had we seen where opponents follow the same path for they feel they have everything to gain & nothing to lose !
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sri »

satya wrote:APHC has served the purpose well for its masters , the agenda that was carried by APHC is now being carried by PDP & NC in short separatists agenda has become more or less mainstream political parties agenda , now this is the transition of separatism to mainstream but their agenda remains same . Need to watch closely the policy formulation & implementation by this new govt. in J&K . Somehow J&K seems like a lab for fine tuning certain strategies to be implements globally . Rarely had we seen where opponents follow the same path for they feel they have everything to gain & nothing to lose !
Worrying part is that slowly it will become an accepted way of doing things. Separatists and their masters have kinda agreed on a hot and cold strategy. On one hand in Kashmir they pursuit hot political strategy through APHC types and the Jehadi elements keep the terror thing alive in other parts. Pakistani media and the their so called experts were quick to link 26/11 with the 'fundamental issue'.

I think we have lost the political plot here. Yesterday I saw Abdullah senior thanking Pakistan a jihadis for a peaceful election. These guys are definitely on to something.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

The Hindus of JK has no unity and I have a feeling that they have more directionless anger as compared to basic strategy. This is way different from other "similar parts" of India. Even if BJP is not perfect why couldn't they close their ranks and just vote for BJP? Imagine another 10 seats from Congress to BJP and we would be seeing chin dance across the world and potential change of geo-politics.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by jamwal »

Contest in Gandhi Nagar was really tight and if BJP had put in slightly more effort they could have won. Relying solely on Amarnath issue is just not enough.
That Hindu ediorial is mostly crap. Don't trust a word of it.
True that 37 seats are avialable in Jammu but quite a few are in Muslim majority areas of Rajauri, Poonch etc. PDP won some sats there.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

Jamwalji,

Let me rephrase my question differently. How many Hindus(% age) voted to non-BJP and non-Panthers parties overall in J&K? Even if it is 10%, don't you think all the Hindus there should see the History and not fall for vested interests and vote strategically? For example Muslims in various pockets of UP and MP vote for a party that defeats BJP ( no love either for SP, BSP or Congress). Why can't JK Hindus think tactically/strategically and vote enmass to one that is not the same everytime? I am not saying that BJP is going to bring moon to anyone there or even they may not achieve anything at all but history should have helped them.

Imagine 20 seats to BJP 5 seats to Congress and NC/PDP on the otherside. What NC/PDP can do? They have to negotiate with Hindu Jammu region not the Muslim Jammu region and that would change the life of future generations of the suffering Hindu poulace there. What happened to pandits could happen to anyone.

Just my thoughts.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

^^^ Boss, some of the Congress nominees in the Jammu area supported the Amarnath issue whole-sale. So it is not exactly hard to understand their winning.

The problem with Congress is that it is a dichotomy: It has very little worthy of being called grassroots democracy in a country known for grassroots democracy. There is a national organization which is going nowhere and local grassroots which often goes with the local hoi polloi. This is the same problem in TN, Gujarat, J&K, UP and many other places.

BJP is not THE solution, the solution is in getting everyone going with the flow.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

Stan_Savljevic wrote:^^^ Boss, some of the Congress nominees in the Jammu area supported the Amarnath issue whole-sale. So it is not exactly hard to understand their winning.
Does it matter. All that Jammu folks are getting is same old NC-CONG or PDP-CONG. what is the negotiation here? This is a state that has thoughts of aligning with Pak just because there is Muslim majority. The negotiations are between soft seperatists and Muslim minority of Jammu region. What will it change if a great Hindu of Congress wins? Where are tactics that are even equal to an illiterate Lucknowite/illiterate Azamgarghite (muslim minority in other parts of India) ?
Stan_Savljevic wrote: The problem with Congress is that it is a dichotomy: It has very little worthy of being called grassroots democracy in a country known for grassroots democracy. There is a national organization which is going nowhere and local grassroots which often goes with the local hoi polloi. This is the same problem in TN, Gujarat, J&K, UP and many other places.
This is the root of all problems for 100s of years except during Nehru and Indira. They were able to use the local factors but were succesful to get a national mandate. In JK the minority Hindus knows that it is going to be an existential problem in the near future and most of them have seen the history in the valley as recent as last two decades.
Stan_Savljevic wrote: BJP is not THE solution, the solution is in getting everyone going with the flow.
BJP is not even in the picture for a solution here. It is important to force the valley's "soft-seperatists" that they have to negotiate with the Hindus of JK no matter what they want to do. BJP is a mask for this to happen even if the JK hindus hate it for their non-performance.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Manmeet »

Is this person a chimp? :D
“I am neither welcoming nor advocating the new government. History is testimony to the fact that how New Delhi has been imposing regimes on Kashmiris. But somebody has to provide basic facilities to the Kashmiris till resolution of the dispute,” Geelani said.
Whole world witnessed kashmir's elections. 60% to 70% people came out, bracing chill to vote and participate in democratic process of India.
A kashmiri is going to rule kashmir, elected by kashmiris. Are we imposing any regime there?
What this goon is ranting for?
Can't provide basic amenities? What are you worth?? :?:
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Airavat »

BJP's total tally could've been higher

The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) which managed to win 11 seats out of 37 in Jammu region, lost seven seats with a low margin to Congress and National Conference while it came runner up in 13 Assembly segments of the region.

While the BJP candidate Chander Parkash Ganga lost Vijaypur seat to NC’s Surjit Singh Salathia by a razor thin margin of 1,200 votes, the party candidate in Samba Satwant Kour Dogra was defeated by Panthers Party candidate and former Minister Yashpal Kundal by 1900 votes.

In Gandhi Nagar constituency BJP candidate, Dr Nirmal Singh lost to Congress nominee and former Minister Raman Bhalla by a margin of 2200 votes while in Udhampur constituency party candidate, Pawan Gupta was trounced by NPP candidate, Balwant Singh Mankotia by 2100 votes.

In Kishtwar the party candidate, Sunil Sharma lost to NC’s Sajjad Ahmed Kitchloo by a margin of 1600 votes. Though BJP was relegated to third number in Rajouri constituency after PDP but the party candidate Vivod Gupta lost the seat with a thin margin of 1,300 votes to Shabir Khan of Congress while the party candidate Chaman Lal Kanathia also lost the Chamb seat by a low margin of 2376 votes to Congress nominee and ex Speaker of the Assembly, Tara Chand.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Raja Ram »

It has been a while, so gentle readers, I think the time for your self appointed rambler/commentator to post a ramble.

For those old timers (if any still left in the new improved BR :mrgreen: ) familar with the old rambles of mine on the antics and activities of the various versions of Harried Rats (Hurriyat) and their principal sponsors the US and Pakistan one can start getting the deja vu feeling soon.

During the Musharaff era, it was Geelani, Salahuddin combination that represented Pakistani interests. The Mirwaiz, Yasin, Lone and others were Uncle Sam's cat paw. Now it looks like the PDP is fully bougth over by the US. You can see that from the increasing pro independence stance.

With the advent of Bush to the White House, more so in the second term, there was a clear push to win over India to the US camp and the US started to back off from their support for the kashmiri cause. In any case, the PDP Congress government in the state was doing their bit to keep the azadi flame burining. The former by acts of commission and the latter by acts of ommission.

The descending spiral in pakistan coupled by the series of actions taken by the then NDA and the successor UPA governments to apply the lessons learnt from Kargil, by way of improved fencing, border control and targetted culling of terror heads put paid to hopes of Pakistan's ability to give a widespread push to the separtist agenda. Thankfully for the state, the PDP had to step down and with a Congess Chief Minister Azad, there were some steps taken to counter terror and repair done to the serious damage done to the intelligence gathering capability in the valley by the PDP.

But the blessing in disguise came with the Amarnath Land issue. The familiar failings of the congress to pander and appease to Muslim sensitivities in the valley came to roost on this issue. Pakistan saw a chance to make a comeback and in the weeks and months that followed the government twist and turn to appease, caused the long suffering Jammu region to revolt. It is too simplistic to paint that rising by Jammu as a communal reaction engineered by the BJP. The BJP had a presence there in the valley, no doubt, but bear in mind that the Congress had the most number of MLAs from that region. It is true that the BJP created and provided a platform for Jammuites to register their protest, but the resentment was genuine and it was the clearest indication in many decades of the the widespread support for J&K to be part of India. It clearly marked out who it was who was against being in India. The valley Muslims were clearly against being in India. While the majority of them want to be independent there was a minority of them who wanted to join Pakistan.

Both factions joined again as they could see that the Amarnath issue was bringing to the fore what they had so far successfully pushed to the background. Key issues such as delimitation and reallocation of seats, descrimination in terms of funds allocation, the vile theocratic interpretation of the dubious kashmiriyat mumbo jumbo, and the genuine acceptance of the people of J&K other than those in the valley to be a part of India and share in its growth and prosperity. All these were beginning to find expression as the Jammu revolt on Amarnath gathered steam. The desperation of the valley based parties like NC, PDP and the Congress's need to appease, drove all of them to find a way out and diffuse. Sensing that the difference between them and the NC/Congress is not much, the PDP joined cause with the azadi bandwagon. Being the only party from that camp, the valley has given them votes and seats in this election. Pakistan did try their best to broad base the support and make a putsch for an "intifada" like movement in the valley against India. But to their surprise they have found that there are no takers for them except for their paid agents like Geelani. The conclusion is that the majority in the valley who do not support being in India, support independence over integration with Pakistan.

Now what does this all mean? In the short term, the solution could be for an NC and Congress government to rule the state. If Omar is an improvement on his dad, he could push development and better governance so that the majority population in valley can see the difference in terms of infrastructure, lowered corruption and better security. If they have any sense, they will also see the writing on the wall and ensure that they have a base across all three regions. For this they have to undo the past. They need to ensure there is delimitation carried out and a better representation happens. If they are too scared that this will lead to BJP gaining at their expense, then it is idiocy.

They will have to couple the development agenda with a ruthless going after terror modules. Most modules today are pakistani and other origin. The local Mujahideen variety are playing second fiddle and providing logistic, financial and intelligence support. The attack modules are almost always pakistani. The policy of targetted removal of module heads should continue. There is a setback on the intelligence gathering capability locally thanks to the stupidity of the PDP. This can and should be set right. This will be one of the biggest challenges for the state as well as the Home Ministry in the the Center.

With the advent of Obama and clintonian SD in the offing, one is sure to see a rise in the profile of PDP and Mirwaiz faction. The USG will seek to appease Pakistan that it will impose equal-equal pressure on India to give pakistan some H&D points on kashmir. There will be paid articles of the Suzanne A Roy variety in our media on how India's progress to super powerdom is unnecassarily held back by kashmir. More lemons will sought to be sold in New Delhi by the lemon sellers from Foggy Bottom. Obama is desperate to get out of Iraq and get into Afghanistan. They want to get out of there after crippling the OBL machine and will be willing to reach a compromise with Afghani taleban who are willing to settle for a compromise. They can have their sharia paradise as long as they do not hurt Americans. Americans ideally would want a stable friendly regime in Kabul that has llimited control and get the hell out of there.

So from that perspective they need a pakistan. To make pakistan survive is increasingly difficult. The USG will attempt to give them some kind of deal in kashmir that pakistan can portray as a great victory over India. One can expect IB=LOC and a semi soverign dominion status for J&K state within Indian Union as the lemon that will be sold here in Delhi.

If this is indeed the agenda of the US and Pakistan, the question therefores is what can the GOI do to use this election verdict to thwart such designs? The ideal thing would be for the NC, Congress and the BJP to come together and form a government in J&K and deliver. That combination can and does have the potential to win over the recalcitrant valley while also cutting down on the undue influence of the valley region to the detriment of the other regions and the cause of the state's emotional integration with the rest of India.

But that is day dreaming. It calls for statesmanship that is absent in the congress and the BJP. Therefore the next best option is for the GOI to present this as the biggest vindication of the Indian position on Kashmir and proceed to deliver on the key expectations of the electorate - Security, good governance and Development. In that order.

For Security, the following should be done immediately

1. Revive the intelligence network and empower the security forces to go after the terror module heads
2. Continue to improve border monitoring, create capabilities for the forces to inflict unacceptable damage to pakistani army and terror camps - there is a need to provide capabilities that are non-intrusive, non-escalatory, punitive delivery mechanisms that can bring massive, sudden and unpredictable damage on terror camps.
3. Keep the pressure on Pakistan diplomatically and militarily, expecially on terror masters - some covert taking out of terror masters inside pakistan or POK would do well.
4. Go after and cut the terror funding inside the valley and slam cases on separatist leaders. Discredit them in public.
5. Finally and most importantly, apologise to the kashmiri pundit community, create safe and secure environment, procure and restore their properties, compensate them for their losses, provide loans to rehabilitate them. It is their most important duty.

For Good Governance the following should be done:
1. The political leadership should make a conscious effort to reach out and meet the requirements of the population. Omar's record as the MoS for External Affairs in the NDA and his presence and performance in Parliament suggests a clear mind and a better awareness of people's aspirations than his father. If he can set a clear example at the top a responsive administration can be had

2. Control Corruption. J&K receives huge sums of money and if the government can improve marginally on this front, there is likely to be a force multiplier effect in terms of development. Such is the level of money we are talking about. Simple things like improving PDS, improving citizen services and timely disbursements of pensions, permits and aid can be made to perform better and with lower levels of corruption. I am a realist and do not see complete elimination of corruption possible in J&K. It is not in any state in India, but the above can be done and has been done in other states.

3. Bring in transparency through a combination of e-governance, RTI compliance, local governments, and a responsive interaction system. The CM should lead the way and ensure that he travels to every district and monitors deveopment and greivance resolution. Examples from Gujarat can be used here. The CM there monitors key programmes and indicies personally, has a well trained group of beaurocrats who help him and personally monitors key indicies of every district on a daily basis. CBN had a similar system in AP when he was CM there.

In the area of Development the new government can do the following:

1. Improve physical connectivity between the regions and between the state and other parts of India. More rail, road and air links to different parts of the state.

2. Ensure that there is an equitable development of the regions.

3. Improve investment climate in the state, promote the Jammu region aggressively as a destination for industry, bring in a couple of high profile investments. A young articulate CM can actually help here. He has the ability to communicate clearly as we saw in the Parliamentary intervention as well as his stint in the NDA government.

4. Invest in education and rural sectors and activate and follow through on NREGS in J&K. This can help create a stake amongst the rural and young in the system and the state. Encourage and prepare J&K youth to compete for jobs and opportunities elsewhere in India. If they can see that they too can share the progress of India and live and work as every other Indian anwhere in India, that is going to create a stake in India for them like all of us have.

By staying focused on the above the GOI and GOJ&K can actually thwart the attempts of US and pakistan in J&K. This election has presented a good opportunity for making a decisive turn away from the seperatist agenda. If we get this right, then we can actually see a peaceful J&K and a turn around as it happened in Punjab in the not so distant past.

Will those in power and positions of influence see it that way? Will a young Omar be better than his father and grand father and create a name for himself and place in this nation's history? These are questions, answers to which will determine India's war on terror in J&K at least.

As usual a long ramble. Take it for what it is worth gentle readers.

ps. Moderators, old and new, the above may or may not meet your criteria of "quality". May I seek your indulgence to let other members decide that. Yours humbly etc etc. thanks!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Rajaram, thaks for the analysis. Are we ebing myopic when we see a TSP prism for the US support of kashmir valley separatists? Is it to balance their support for Israel in the eyes of the ummah and KSA?

BTW, Please refrain from those appeals to admins as they are non-sequitor. Each post stands on its own merit once its posted. No one is after censoring or redlining.

Thanks, ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Raja Ram »

ramana,

I don't see that the US supporting the cause of separitists in kashmir as a balancing act to appease the Ummah and KSA. For what it is worth, kashmir has not stirred the emotions of the ummah and KSA as much as yehudis in Holy Jerusalem. Despite Pakistan's best effort, apart from the customary resolutions in Arab League or OIC, nothing much has been done.

There are reasons why it is so with the Ummah and KSA, not possible for me to explain in detail in this thread so will not go into it here.

But there are far more powerful reasons for the US to back an independent kashmir and they could be better drivers to US policy.

1. US support or indulgence of Pakistani support to kashmir is a way of US exercising a levarage point with Pakistan. It was the classic cold war quid-pro-quo.

2. An independent kashmir is the US preferred option. It will give them a chance to create a similiar provider- slave relationsip between US and Kashmir and give them a presence in the sub-continent to monitor, Pakistan, India, Iran and most importantly China - especially create opportunities in Uighur (Xinjiang) and Tibet.

3. A base in Kashmir or access to bases in kashmir can provide US with a launch pad to central asia and keep a watch on Russia as well

4. Classic US view on India, as you know was developed based on the precepts developed by the British. There was and still is a lack of knowledge and appreciation on India, its civilizational ethos, its strategic underpinings. So the US view has oscilliated between benign indifference to India (no one thought about Indian emergence) to hostility (Anglo-christian world view had no place for a pagan Hindu India - Hinduism is more evil than than Islam). So kashmir was seen as a weak link that should provide the West with an opportunity to dring down India or at best to keep India in check.

These according to me are the more powerful reasons for the US support to the Harried Rats in the past. I have arrived at these reasons based on my observation and readings of US policy over the years. No references, no articles or reports by think tanks to support these observations or assertions.

ramana, sorry if i offended you with the request to moderators, I had to mention it because of couple of what in my view were unnecessary cross examinations endured in the past by me.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Rudradev »

I agree with Raja Ram sahib that appeasing KSA etc. has nothing to do with the Americans' Kashmir designs. If at all that figures in Washington's calculations it is as a fringe benefit.

The Americans need to hack off a new piece of subcontinental Yindoo territory, under the pretext of "liberating a moderate-Muslim homeland", to replace the one they were patronizing for all these decades.

Pakistan has outlived its usefulness to the Americans as a strategically positioned rentier state. It has become unmanageable in terms of its various power equations (anti-India political classes vs. anti-India military vs. anti-Kufr pan-Ummahists, both in and out of uniform). The costs of propping it up have begun to outweigh the advantages, too plainly to be ignored.

The Americans need a new, more easily manageable version of that original whiskey-pasand Pakistan to serve their geostrategic aims instead. They're hoping the Mirwaiz's and Muftis of today will prove a suitably pliable replacement for the Jinnahs of yesteryear.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by JE Menon »

>>I had to mention it because of couple of what in my view were unnecessary cross examinations endured in the past by me.

RR, forget it. It was crossed wires. Your posts and assessments are always welcome here.

Your take on the Afghan deployment balloon is awaited :twisted:
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by negi »

Raja Ram wrote: 2. An independent kashmir is the US preferred option. It will give them a chance to create a similiar provider- slave relationsip between US and Kashmir and give them a presence in the sub-continent to monitor, Pakistan, India, Iran and most importantly China - especially create opportunities in Uighur (Xinjiang) and Tibet.

3. A base in Kashmir or access to bases in kashmir can provide US with a launch pad to central asia and keep a watch on Russia as well
Hm.. interesting points I would say for the open minded above points definitely need to be taken into consideration when discussing US intervention in Kashmir.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

Guys:

Can Omar Abdullah be trusted? Wonder what the TSP game plan is now? Are they going to ask their LeT piglets to resume attacks and confuse the situation once again? I read somewhere that there is deafening silence in TSP media towards the elction results.
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Post by CRamS »

With all due respect to Raja ram and his 'modesty', the fact that US is after an independent Kashmir so they can install their militray toys under plaint valley Muslim RAPE leadership is well known. Now, the question is that with elections throwing up pro-India govt (although I might add that Omar Abdullah was not particularly emphatic on TimesNow when asked if his party was pro-India), what will US strategy be to prop up the Harried rats?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Bhima »

CRamS wrote:Guys:

Can Omar Abdullah be trusted? Wonder what the TSP game plan is now? Are they going to ask their LeT piglets to resume attacks and confuse the situation once again? I read somewhere that there is deafening silence in TSP media towards the elction results.
Surely a matter of time before terrorists begin work again. Seeing how these politicians are walking freely among the public perhaps an assassination attempt?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by jamwal »

Mopalla jee

Even during the peak of Amarnath agitation, nobody except a few sadhus in some meetings used the word Hindutva anywahere. AFAIK, no BJP leader used "Hindutva" explicitly during polls either.
I agree with what you said but playing religion card isn't going to work everytime. Gandhi Nagar seat was a BJP stonghold before 1992. But congress won 2 times because it's candidate is much more hard working and accessible to people. Previous BJP MLA didn't spent even 1% of his allotted funds. A lot of people switched to BJP this time but many stayed back with the Congress candidate who made their lives easier with better civic ameneties.BJP MLAs need to perform well in their respective constituencies to represent nationalist Jammu more forcefully.

Raja Ram ji, Great article, except for one point.
How can US expect to use Kashmir as it's base when most of Kashmiri Muslims despise US and it's policies? India hasn't been able to stop terrorists from launching attacks almost at will for so long..how will US manage to persuade/force local population as well as Islamic terrorists from making Kashmir another Iraq? Gilanis and Lones don't have that much power over locals as many people think.

Omar Abdullah is a B&*** . Don't you guys remeber this moron's statement in Parliament regarding Amarnath land issue? Abdullahs are better than Muftis but I don't trust any of them.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by negi »

jamwal wrote: How can US expect to use Kashmir as it's base when most of Kashmiri Muslims despise US and it's policies? India hasn't been able to stop terrorists from launching attacks almost at will for so long..how will US manage to persuade/force local population as well as Islamic terrorists from making Kashmir another Iraq? Gilanis and Lones don't have that much power over locals as many people think.
Simple onlee.. like today Pakistan is an ally in GWOT (even if the common man in Pakistan may not like it), same is the case in IRAQ and Afghanistan. As I have said time and again for US ; terrorism , social justice etc are a non issue unless they start posing threats to American lives or interests. US can easily talk the secessionists into providing a NATO protective umbrella for hypothetical advances from India or Pakistan.

Case in point while BBC,NYTIMES, CNN and Co blabber about human rights and social justice, in J&K in past 60 years I have not come across an angry Kashmiri pelting a stone or even a shoe at an Indian Babu leave alone the head of the state . Compare this to the recent incident involving IRAQi reporter and Bush . So much for the US forces trying to bring stability in IRAQ.
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Post by Rudradev »

CRamS wrote:Now, the question is that with elections throwing up pro-India govt (although I might add that Omar Abdullah was not particularly emphatic on TimesNow when asked if his party was pro-India), what will US strategy be to prop up the Harried rats?
Why do the Americans need the Harried Rats when they can now patronize the secessionist PDP which has a tried-and-tested vote bank? Harried Rats have never proved their worth in any election. What we have to recognize is that the US will ditch one set of condoms for another whenever it sees fit... the Americans' objective is to remove Kashmir from the Indian Union and they will use whatever tools present themselves at any given point.

For that matter, do we think that the PDP deliberately scuttled the anti-terror intelligence apparatus in J&K because they were stupid Islamists, as Raja Ram implies? I don't believe so... to have enervated the states' intelligence gathering apparatus just out of Islamist sympathy could have ended up costing the Muftis their own lives, and nobody is that stupid.

I believe the PDP were paid by the Americans, to scuttle the anti-terror apparatus in J&K during the period of their misrule... and that the Americans also guaranteed the personal security of the Muftis during the process.

It is the Harried Rats who will now be competing even more fiercely for the flow of secession-supporting dollars from Washington, which they have seen being diverted towards the PDP. There is a whole industry of Kashmiri Muslim political leaders who have made the "secessionist movement" a source of great profit, mainly financed by American dollars and Indian taxpayers' money, over the past two decades.

Even Omar Abdullah wants to keep his options open to garner some of those dollars for himself... the reason he was so lukewarm about adopting a publicly pro-India stance is because he wants to keep his secessionist credentials polished for the Americans' benefit.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krithivas »

We need to back away from the self-imposed image of an omni-potent USA lurking in the background influencing our destiny in more ways that we (as in India) can.

The USA of 1900's is not the USA of 2000's - There are stresses in its super structure that is coming home to roost. And chaos elsewhere in the world will lead to its potential collapse.

The question is IF can India can play up the multi-polarity-politics well, and ruthlessly discredit and eliminate as appropriate the duality of the Roys and Rats, India has a strong place in this universe.

R. Krithivas
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Post by Rudradev »

krithivas wrote:We need to back away from the self-imposed image of an omni-potent USA lurking in the background influencing our destiny in more ways that we (as in India) can.

The USA of 1900's is not the USA of 2000's - There are stresses in its super structure that is coming home to roost. And chaos elsewhere in the world will lead to its potential collapse.

The question is IF can India can play up the multi-polarity-politics well, and ruthlessly discredit and eliminate as appropriate the duality of the Roys and Rats, India has a strong place in this universe.

R. Krithivas
"Omnipotent" USA? Who said they were omnipotent? They are, indeed, trying to sever Kashmir away from the Indian Union... but they hardly need to be omnipotent to do that. The Pakis have been trying the same thing for 6 decades, does that make the Pakis "ominpotent" too?

It is not a question of USA influencing our destiny in more ways than we ourselves can. After all, despite Washington's best efforts J&K remains a part of India and vibrantly committed to our democracy for the most part. So it appears that we have been influencing our own destiny more profoundly than the Americans, at least so far.

My point is that, just because the US-Pakistan relationship is on the rocks, or just because Pakistan seems on the verge of collapse, we should not assume for one moment that these developments will bring relief to us in J&K. The separation of J&K from India is not Pakistan's agenda alone, it is America's agenda as well. We think that the J&K issue will be solved permanently if the Pakistan problem goes away... it will not, because the America problem will remain.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Raja Ram »

Gentle Readers,
The American angle comments of mine were in response to ramana's observations. Nothing beyond that. The GOI, in my view, is not bothered about what USG wants. However, it does recognise that American position with regard to Kashmir is only partly linked to their relationship with Pakistan. Independent of that the US has an interest in getting involved in kashmir and that was the central point I was making - rather agreeing with ramana on his observation that we cannot look at kashmir from paki prism alone. It is not for anything that over the years several successive USG have tried to get a role for themselves in kashmir. Let us not forget the father of former secretary of state albright's "objective" report.

Leaving that aside, let me respond to some of the other observations made:

CRamS : I didn't exactly get you. As mentioned above, I do not see the US as a positive player, or a neutral player but a very interested player who have their own agenda. Your remark seem to indicate that I think otherwise. Thought I would clarify.

jamwal: It is not necessary for the population of kashmir to be pro-US. If US supports azadi, they will tolerate US and take their support. And the other point is that the US generally has two types of allies - allies like the UK and other western democracies, where they have civilizational links, common world view and multi level links between countries and then they have tactical allies like KSA or Pakistan - they have links with the regime and not share any civilizational links, common world view or multi level links. As long as the regime is stable and does what they want they will support otherwise they will dump or even punish them - Saddam, Suharto, Marcos, Noreiga.... the list endless. Kashmir can be in the second cateogory.

On Omar: Let us not be under any illusions. Omar is like his grand dad Shiek Abdullah and not like his dad. Shiek Abdullah supported acceding to India as he had no choice. Stupid pakis had forced his hand by then and the barbarians were lliterally at the gates of Srinagar. He knew Jinnah and more importantly he knew Liaquat. He dispised Jinnah, but could have done business with him as Jinnah would have been willing to have kashmir as a switzerland. Liaquat was very clear what he wanted Islam to be paramount and kashmir islamized like punjab was. Shiek's preferred option was a country for himself. He was no less an egotist than Jinnah. In fact he lamented after 71, "if one shiek (Mujib) can have a country why not one more."

He felt that he could get out of Nehru something like a dominion status for J&K and was perhaps promised that by him. Events took a different route and beyond the infamous Articel 370, the dominion status for J&K never took off. Thanks to UN intervention and Pakistani insistence on holding on to occupied POK.

Omar has gone on record to state that NC lost ground because it moved away from its "legacy". He has apologised to his constituents time and again on the dalliance with NDA. Farooq wanted to continue in the NDA but not Omar. One thing for sure, none of the Abdullahs have any love lost for pakistan. They would prefer to be in India any day rather than support integration with Pakistan. Their most preferred choice would be an independent kashmir or at least a dominion status.

The PDP on the other hand is a poison spawned out from the congress. They look moderate, they talk more for independence but there is a more islamic tinge to their vision for kashmir. That is why they are more amenable to islamist pressure. With their emergence, the US is looking at a more credible and willing horse to back than the moderate faction of the Harried Rats led by the Mirwaiz. The US may make the mistake of trying to get the moderates under the PDP umbrella. But my own view is that the PDP will sing more to the tunes of Pakistan and Islam then any "moderate, enlightened, peace park switzderland" view of independent kashmir that the US prefers.

Lastly, a word about the damage done to the intelligence network. I have based this on some interactions with the people who have served there. The common refrain is that it takes years to build an intelligence network and informants network. More so given the level of distrust in the local population to collaborate with the security forces. The forces take it upon themselves to protect these sources even with their lives to earn the credibility. The Mufti led administration went about disbanding these networks and decommisioning the SOG structure where many locals were employed and worse started compensating the "victims" i.e. families of slain mijahideen. Yes, they used state money. Some of the volunteers and informants lost their lives when their lives were compromised.

The network was extremely successful in eliminating a lot of local terror modules and decreased the life span of the launched terrorists from across the border significantly. Remember Operation Sarp Vinash etc. They were due in no small measure to the effective intelligence grid set up. This is what was undone by the PDP regime. Azad tried to bring back sanity during his stint but was hamstrung by opposition from PDP.

This is why I listed this as one of the priority items for the new NC_Congress combination. Omar will be reluctant at first but he may well see the benefits of its revival. His biggest threat is not the BJP or the PDP, it is the jehadis and paki generals who are desperate to get back into kashmir and would be keen to start a terror wave their to discredit the local government. Hope this was stressed and pointed out to Omar when he met with PC recently.

JEM,
On afghanistan deployment. Good psyops move, but more on it on that thread soon.

As usual a ramble, take it for what it is worth.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

Just a thought to the gentle reader and the not so gentle ones.

Hypothetically speaking, if Kashmir does secede to Pakistan, would the Kashmiri leaders including the Hurriyat ones have the 'importance' that they have in secular India, where they can blackmail their way through and enjoy the fishes and loaves of office/ RAW and ISI funding (Hurriyat) which they use more for their own luxuries?

Obviously not.

Therefore, they will huff and puff, but will do nothing too much that upsets their own pristine position and funding.

As far as the Kashmiri population is concerned, will they be treated as first class citizens if Kashmir is in Pakistan. They are aware of what is the status that POK citizens have.

Amanullah Khan, Chairman JKLF had stated - Azad Kashmir was not really azad since the people in POK did not enjoy political or ideological freedom. He amplified that during the 2001 elections, Pakistan rejected the nomination of those did not endorse the accession of Kashmir to Pakistan, and instead demanded reunification and independence. 300 JKLF members were arrested for protesting this two facedness. (Hindu 29 Nov 2001).

The love for the Kashmiris by other Moslems is best brought out by the Persian couplet -

Agar kuht-ul-riajl uftad
azesham uns kam geeri Eke Afghan, doum Kumboh seum bazjat Kashmiri


(Translated:
Should Fate decree a dearth of men,
Then friend of mine, beware ye
Of Afghan, Kumbo, scoundrel too
But worst of all, do thou eschew
That ill bred knave Kashmiri
Prem Nath Bazaz Kashmir in Crucible Page 4)
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by jamwal »

Raja Ram jee

What about domestic support? How many American voters will support such misadventure? Haven't they learnt enough from Iraq and Afghanistan?
If US can make Kashmir it's colony with the methods that you mentioned, what's stopping India from doing the same in Kashmir, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka and Myanmar?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Airavat »

RayC wrote:The love for the Kashmiris by other Moslems is best brought out by the Persian couplet -

Agar kuht-ul-riajl uftad
azesham uns kam geeri Eke Afghan, doum Kumboh seum bazjat Kashmiri


(Translated:
Should Fate decree a dearth of men,
Then friend of mine, beware ye
Of Afghan, Kumbo, scoundrel too
But worst of all, do thou eschew
That ill bred knave Kashmiri
Prem Nath Bazaz Kashmir in Crucible Page 4)
"bazjat" is actually "badzaat" a common Persian/Urdu term; another version of the last line in that couplet is "Awwal Afghan, doyum Kamboh, soyum badzaat Kashmiri".

Historically the Muslims of foreign origin in India despised the Kashmiri Muslims and also called them: zulm parast, which means "lovers of tyranny". Another word they used for Kashmiris was "loley", regarded as an insulting term but I'm not sure what it means?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Prem »

Lola or lole are Fuddus i.e mixture of egoistic, demented , retarded,mischevious and air headed idiots. i use to hear this term by elders long time ago. :wink:
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