J & K news and discussion

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Philip
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Philip » 03 Aug 2010 11:27

While there can be no compromise when faced with the most violent attacks that threaten the lives of the para-military forces dealing wiht the disturbances,there is an acute need for employing the latest crowd control non-lethal measures in J&K.If such collossal amounts could be spent on the Chor Wealth Games,several hundreds of crores spent in getting innovative eqpt. to deal with the protestors/rioters wuld make a huge difference. Until the govt. takes firmer steps to deal with the revolt,for that is what it is,the Pakis will seize the opportunity for which they've plotted and planned for years to achieve,a general uprising in the Valley allowing them to seize the moment.The GOI should flood the state with troops and paramilitary forces and if violent demos continue take the most severe measures against them.There can be nothing less than a shoot-to-kill policy for the most extreme incidents of violence,but these orders should be given after all else has failed.A stiff dose of President's Rule might be neccessary while keeping the govt. in suspended animation until the dust settles.Under no circumstances should the GOI allow the tail to wag-the-dog.

The GOI should also build a series of permanent well-fortified forts across the state,strategically located that can be easily linked by road and helo.These should be designed to be "terror-proof",from the usual kinds of vehicle and suicide bomber attacks.The fortresses should contain both military and para-military forces able to deal with any upsurge of internal violence,ablke to cut the state into smaller pieces and prevent any disturbance from spreading.This also reuires a far larger presence of paras and regular forces to deal with such incidents.The use of helos to bomb demonstrators with foul-smelling chem-repellants should be used.

Faced with an acute problem of dealing with anti-Paki rebel elements at home who oppose the Paki military's strategy of performing "tricks" for sugar-uncle Sam ,and trying to orchestrate the Af.Taliban's resistance to US/NATO forces while pretending to actually fight them,the Pakis would wish nothing better than a crisis in J&K to re-deploy their troops on our borders as an excuse and get their proxies in Afghanistan off the hook.Given Gen,Kill-Any's machiavellian mindset,we must be exceptionally watchful for him resorting to orchestrating further terror attacks or even another Kargil kind of misadventure that Gen.Bandicoot tried.Kill-Any is a far cannier customer and events in the Valley are proving this correct.faced with massive criticism and the expose of the Wikleaks about Pak's chicanery and duplicity,there time tried method iof diverting attentionat home and abroad has always been to wage war with India! We should batten all hatches and keep our powder dry for the inevitable future spat .

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Sachin » 03 Aug 2010 11:45

Just completed a book on the Mopillah Rebellion by KN Panikkar a historian from the "Marxist School" of thought. He gives a twist to the whole thing by saying that it was a peasent revolt. Too hard taxation policies are treated as the main reason, and naturally the next line are the Indians who benefited from this taxation. But when it comes to the main riot 1921 he too is forced to admit the amount religious chauvanism present. Khilafat etc. are used as an excuse, but from what I could make out KN Panikkar does admit that cruelty was committed in the name of religion.

What caught my interest was how the British dealt with the situation. For one thing the British always had an eye on the Moppilahs because their urge to run riot was documented by the previous British administrative officials. The opinion of some of the British officers regarding RoPers are there in the book. Next was the clear setting of threshold after which the then District Collector decided that things were going out of hand. The main reason was an incident when a Police Inspector and party had to go for a compromise formula after they went to arrest a Mopillah leader. The Inspector had reported about a large number of people gathering, and huge dreams (Nakaraas) from the mosques which was an indication for the people to muster. The arrest plan was abandoned.

It goes to the credit that the district administration clearly recognized the threat, and sought Army help. And it was provided in true Army fashion. In meticulous fashion troops were organised and sent forward by train. And every attempt for "show of strength" was utilised to the core. With this the administration proved that it meant business. And as soon as this was clear, neutral people started helping out the Army with information. The Moppilah leaders were rounded up one by one, and in some cases these heroes :roll: were also okay to rat on their fellow companions. All hope for these rioters were lost when they found that one after the other the top leaders were getting executed. The lesser minions surrendered in truck loads and handed over any offensive weapon they had. The remaining trouble makers tried for a gureilla war fare from the hilly regions. Units from Gorkhal rifles and Kachin regiment were brought in and this closed the Moppilah Rebellion for ever (at least for the remaining British rule in India).

These information in the book is not some "rocket science" and I am sure every agency in India would be aware of all this. If Mopillah Rebellion can be quelled, Kashmir also should be possible, provided that there is the correct political will.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Carl_T » 03 Aug 2010 12:17

Sachin wrote:
These information in the book is not some "rocket science" and I am sure every agency in India would be aware of all this. If Mopillah Rebellion can be quelled, Kashmir also should be possible, provided that there is the correct political will.


Hasn't Kashmir already been "quelled" though? I think as far as insurgency goes, India has been successful in shutting down the domestic side of the insurgency and eliminating most of its capabilities to inflict violence. Other than sporadic acts and stone throwing/protests, do Indian JK based militant groups have the ability to inflict any kind of large scale violence? JMT.

IMO I don't think we can do any better unless we go next door.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Sachin » 03 Aug 2010 12:46

Carl_T wrote:Other than sporadic acts and stone throwing/protests, do Indian JK based militant groups have the ability to inflict any kind of large scale violence?

In the recent spate of attacks if I am not mistaken at least 20 chaps (civilians) have been killed. God knows how many policemen (I heard it is 200+) who are injured in the last 10-15 days. It may not be an insurgency, but clearly a riot organised on communal lines (can be compared with the Khilafat gimmick employed in 1921). So it needs some resolute action to prove that stone throwing and harming security officers is not going to do any good to any one. I hope with Video recordings, and better surveillance facilities the master-minds are getting identified and noted for future reference ;).

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 03 Aug 2010 13:16

From MEA's website

Gratuitous Remarks on J&K attributed to UNSG


03/08/2010

Ministry have seen media reports on certain remarks attributed to the UN Secretary General on the security situation in the State of Jammu & Kashmir and revival of composite dialogue with Pakistan. The Government had sought a clarification from the office of the UN Secretary General through our Permanent Mission to the UN in New York. The office of the UN Secretary General has clarified that no such question was raised at the press conference nor was any such comment made by the UN Secretary General.

New Delhi
August 03, 2010


sum
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby sum » 03 Aug 2010 19:28

How long before we have the trial balloon articles in the DDM stating that maybe the K-valley people deserve to get their "Aazadi"?

IIRC, the communal Kashmiris are only axing themselves in the foot as such nonsense protests will only lead to a return of the plainclothes hit teams of JKP, SoG etc which will brutally go about their job. It also erodes whatever little sympathy most aam aadmi might have for them...

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby krisna » 03 Aug 2010 19:31

Muppalla wrote:UN chief K-talk has India worried

Okay - This is as per the script. JK has to come to forefront as discussed earler. what that means is stonethrowing has the highest level approval.


http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/aug/ ... remark.htm

The role of the Pakistani-origin spokesperson of United Nations secretary General Ban Ki-Moon has come under scanner with the denial of the UN chief's controversial remarks on Kashmir by his office. Spokesperson Farhan Haq e-mailed a statement to journalists at the UN headquarters in New York last week stating that Ban "is concerned over the prevailing security situation" in "Indian-administered Kashmir".


Paki is a paki is a paki.
May be Indian gov should force UN chief Ban Ki Moon should ban pakis in any official position. :twisted: :evil:

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby sum » 03 Aug 2010 19:32

As if on cue, one such article:
'If we were Lashkar, would it be difficult for us to murder troops?'

"There never was calm in the valley; it merely was a lull."

"When you station two securitymen outside every home in Kashmir [ Images ], censor their mobile phones, enforce a curfew that in all practical sense is a bandh for days, then you get calm. But then you also get a state full of people who have been denied their basic rights," says Zahid Rafiq, a Kashmiri journalist working in the national capital.

Kashmir has erupted once again. Kids, who look like they can barely carry their schoolbags, stand defiantly against men in uniform.

Frantic meetings between the state and central governments have only resulted in one option -- impose a curfew.

That, however, is the one thing the state is failing to enforce as scores of demonstrators take to the streets.

The last four days have seen several deaths in the valley after about two-and-a-half weeks of calm. Over 30 protestors have died in the last two months.

"You are telling me about two-and-a-half weeks of calm. Let me tell you, Kashmir has been in a state of bandh for the past 41 days. New Delhi was crippled in the one-day bandh observed recently. Imagine 41 such days, only more severe!" exclaims Sohail Mir, a Kashmiri student at Delhi University.

"There have been many dead, but there are also people injured in the violence who live to tell the tale. Others, seeing an injured man bleeding, are no longer scared. That is what is alarming. People are not afraid of the State. Curfew only works when the State can inculcate fear in people's minds," feels Samir Shahi, a Kashmiri artist.

Many Kashmiris are shocked by the state and central governments's attempt at labelling the protests as sponsored by the Lashkar-e-Tayiba [ Images ].

"New Delhi is lying to the Kashmiris and the rest of India [ Images ] when it says that our protests are sponsored by external forces. Our protests and our anger have been going on for the past 22 years. The state government tried to suppress it by forcing our men inside, by raping our women and by killing our children. But Kashmiris kept erupting. Whenever they got the chance, people took to the streets," says journalist Jehangir Ali, who is in Kashmir at the moment.

"If our protests were Lashkar sponsored, don't you think we would be using sophisticated weapons against the forces? How come only civilian deaths have been reported in the last two months and no security fatalities? If we were indeed Lashkar, would it be very difficult for us to murder the troops?" asks Zahid.

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah [ Images ], after a meeting with the prime minister and other senior Union ministers on Monday, said he has sought additional paramilitary forces, especially the Rapid Action Force, to deal with street protesters.

"This what the government does not understand," says Samir Shahi. "When the atrocities began, we dealt it with patience, then with tolerance and now that it is not stopping, we are revolting. We are not afraid anymore."

"Look at the situation," he adds. "Earlier, people from select areas used to protest; the security forces knew areas like Downtown, Sopore etc were sensitive. Now, people are protesting everywhere. You can't impose curfew on the state's entire population and kill them all."...


Nice comment on this ( echoes BRF thinking) :

What a joke
by SaneIndian (View MyPage) on Aug 03, 2010 07:48 PM | Hide replies

All these stone pelting and burning stuff is clearly orchestrated.

Nice job by ISI and other militant groups in brainwashing young people into throwing stones.

The funniest part is, Pakis cannot control their own country, but want land from others.

To all Kashmiris who want separate land - "Please go to POK, if you cannot live in India. Do us a favour".

Kashmiris will not even get an inch of any land from India. You can whine for 10000 years. But you are just wasting time. Just get educated and get a good job and live happily like the rest of Indians. Bobody is stopping you from getting educated and finding jobs.

Every Indian has to struggle. The same for Kashmiris too. No more Freebies.


Kashmir is a headache
by milind gade (View MyPage) on Aug 03, 2010 07:35 PM | Hide replies

The Indian government has been very considerate to the Kashmiri people and spoiled them since independence. The subsequent policies of article 370 has further alienated Kashmiris from rest of the Indian subcontinent and helped cause of Pakistan. To cure the Kashmiris the worst of the criminals in the Indian jails should be trained to fight terrorists and given free land in Kashmir. Fight fire with fire ....lets not waste precious army commandos and jawans as cannon fodder against these low life kasmiris.

Lakhs of Kashmiri hindus were driven out and systematic genocide was committed by pro-pakistani and azaadi elements but no human right organizations worth their salt took up the issues.

The only language the kashmiri understand is of military boots on their spoilt butts.

As for pakis they are dogs living on the scraps of foods thrown by the US....one day US will stop feeding these rabid animals and shoot them instead

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby sum » 03 Aug 2010 19:34

A good article on the K- problem :
7 steps that can make a difference in Kashmir

Twenty years and counting, that is the time one has been involved in the 'Kashmir issue', and there is a sinking feeling that like Alice in Wonderland, 'it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place.' The phrase 'the more things change, the more they seem to remain same', applies to the Kashmir situation, specially the valley.

The present bout of violence is almost a repeat of the Amarnath controversy that took place two years ago almost to the exact date. Elections were then in the offing and the two young Turks of Kashmiri politics indulged in a competition to whip up xenophobia.

Grant of permission to erect temporary structures for pilgrims was painted as an attempt at demographic change or worse, as if the thousands of pilgrims who visit the Amarnath cave would stay permanently on the barren icy slopes of the Himalayas!

But such is the level of self-delusion in the valley that this was widely believed. But then, much to the grief of the mainstream parties, the separatists and Pakistan's supporters hijacked the issue. There was a reaction in Jammu, counter-reaction in the valley; it seemed as if Kashmir was back to the bad old days of the 1990s.

Come this July, despite peaceful elections and with a National Conference government well in the saddle, we are in the midst of what can only be called a stone-pelting crisis. Even to a seasoned observer like this one, the origins of this are obscure.

What one knows is that in Srinagar it had become a Friday ritual to pelt stones at the police. Some allege that the stone-pelters were paid wages and supplies were arranged. This is not very unlikely as in the early 1990s, it is now well known that ammunition and arms for the separatist Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front were transported in government vehicles.

While all this was happening, the harangue from mosques and tours of separatists to whip up anti-national feelings continue unabated. Like in the case of the Amarnath crisis two years ago, the honourable governor was missing in action.

Incidentally, do we still have a governor there?

Stone-pelting then led to action by the local police and Central Reserve Police Force in self defence that caused casualties. The funeral of the dead is then turned into another occasion for mass demonstrations, more stone pelting, use of force by police, more casualties, more funerals and so on and on.

On a long visit there in September 2008, I travelled the length and breadth of the valley. One striking thing was the relative prosperity and absence of the kind of poverty one sees elsewhere in India.

The national economic survey this year has confirmed that along with Nagaland (another state where there is an anti-Indian agitation going on), Jammu and Kashmir has just six per cent of its population below the poverty line. The picture one saw in the Rajouri-Poonch area was even rosier. Places like Rajouri that barely had a college or two, has now a full-fledged university.

Today 62 goodwill schools and countless community centres are functioning in the state, established by the army. One felt proud to see the girls's school in Kamalkote village (devastated during the 2006 earthquake) rebuilt by my battalion and equipped with computers et al.

It was amusing to read a statement by an august woman member of the Planning Commission who had a simple solution to the Kashmir crisis: 'Give them computer keyboards instead of stones,' said the great lady. Does she know that this is a reality already even in the remote corners of the state?

Unfortunately, there are enough people in the valley who use these very computers and mobiles to co-ordinate the Friday stone-throwing rituals..
..



Without too much of debate, one can propose seven steps that can make or mar peace in that area.

Stop giving undue importance to the valley Jammu and Kashmir is not just a few cities in the valley but also consists of Jammu, Kargil, Rajouri-Poonch and Ladakh. Please disabuse the gulli mohalla leaders of their notions.

Identify people who spread disaffection and incite violence and send them to jails outside the state, preferably Jodhpur.

Do not ban Pakistan television. Let the average Kashmiri see what awaits him on the other side of the border.

Take on the separatists on an ideological ground Kashmiri separatism is bogus and a creation of post-independence politics. Kashmir was very much a part of India in ancient times, the middle ages and the modern era.

How was it different from 400-odd princely states? Except that it had a Muslim majority, but do we in India discriminate on the basis of religion?

If not, what is the rationale for the so-called 'uniqueness' of Kashmir? This ideological battle is far more important than all other measures like economic goodies et al.

Let us face it: It is not Kashmiri separatism but Islamic separatism that we face in the valley.

Establish a dialogue with non-politicised religious leaders. Urge them to work for peace. The church in the North-East played this role and helped bring peace. Point out to them the travails of the people of Pakistan. Do they want Kashmiri Muslims to suffer the same fate?

Ask internal supporters as to whether the 20 per cent Shia, 40 per cent Hindus and 5 per cent Buddhists of the state have any future in a Sharia-based entity?

Establish institutional mechanisms. Like an independent commission for police oversight and an armed forces independent office of civil complaints to make sure that the security forces operate within the law and citizens have a forum to redress their grievances. The model in Northern Ireland is worth looking at.

Along with this, post a governor with defence or intelligence background who is proactive. (The incumbent, with his pure bureaucratic background, is an unmitigated disaster, though he claims a military background having been in the military academy for some time).

Such a governor must play a role as a liaison between the government and security forces.

Establish institutions of local self-government While there is constant talk of more autonomy from the Centre, there is virtually no devolution of power to the local levels.

Much of the grievances are essentially of a local nature and this measure will go a long way in Kashmir enjoying the fruits of democracy.

On the one hand there is realisation that unemployment is the cause of unrest, yet on the other xenophobia rules the roost when it comes to investment from other parts of the country If Kashmiris want to stew in their own juice, let them do so but why must the Jammu division or Ladakh or Kargil suffer from this due to Article 370 and the valley people's allergy to anything Indian?

Establish district councils and permit them to invite investments in tourism and other sectors.

These simple steps, if taken, will not solve the Kashmir issue. But they will certainly deal with the present crisis and forestall its repetition.

For a long-term solution to the whole Kashmir problem, there is no substitute to opening a mass debate with the participation of representatives of all regions of the state and not just the valley.

The dialogue must be open and public. Experience teaches us that all the 'quiet' talks behind closed doors generally come to naught when dealing with deep-rooted conflicts. Any agreement arrived at through this is quickly denounced as a sellout and another extremist faction takes birth.

This has been the experience the world over and there is no substitute for a widely-based open dialogue for ushering in durable peace.

Read it all..

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby shravan » 03 Aug 2010 20:04


RamaY
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RamaY » 03 Aug 2010 20:34

Muppalla wrote:Indian media has proved itself utterly disgraceful. All the headers consist of 8 Killed or 5 killed in JK and hide the 200 CRPF injuries somewhere inside the article. Why can't they write "Stone Pelting in JK - 200 CRPF casualties, 8 dead"


Muppalla garu

Why blaming DDM? Look at the posts in this thread itself. It is Govt of JK's own doing. They are not going hard on the instigators of these activists. Just bump few of the business/politician/mullahs and send some of these kids to boarding schools elsewhere in the country.

On one side a few thousand people are taking the entire valley (and nation) hostage and people want peaceful response.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Kanson » 03 Aug 2010 21:03

Is Omar a capable administrator? He proved so many times as a demagouge. There are certain things which are negotiable with separatists. The moment he allowed not to hoist National Flag in sopore he gave away the weakness of this administration. He criticised his own police and insisted on reducing the IA powers. So far he followed the appeasement policy. If he is fast learner it is the right time to show his change of policy.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby sunnyP » 03 Aug 2010 21:07

Pakis speak: :roll:


Islamabad: Needling India over the violence in Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan on Tuesday asked it to "exercise restraint" while expressing "unequivocal solidarity" with the Kashmiris.

In a statement that may raise hackles in New Delhi, Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi spoke about "escalation of violence against Kashmiri people".

"Pakistan is seriously concerned at the escalation of violence against Kashmiri people that has resulted in the loss of innocent lives. There is a need for the government of India to exercise restraint," he said.

The minister raked up the issue of "self-determination", saying Islamabad will extend political, moral and diplomatic support to the Kashmiri people.

"Pakistan expresses its unequivocal solidarity with the people of Jammu and Kashmir and shall continue to extend its political, moral and diplomatic support to the just cause of the people of Jammu and Kashmir for their right to self-determination," he said.

Qureshi said the statement by UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon expressing "concern at the prevailing security situation" and the "deep concern and disappointment" expressed recently by the Organisation of the Islamic Conference reflected the "collective concern of the international community at the human rights violations" in Jammu and Kashmir.

His comments came despite the Indian government saying Ban's office has clarified that no question about Kashmir was raised at any press conference "nor was any such comment made by the UN Secretary General.



http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-must-e ... ml?from=tn

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby vera_k » 03 Aug 2010 21:17

BJP asks Congress to withdraw support for Omar-led govt

"Congress was responsible for not trusting Maharaja Hari Singh and placing confidence in Sheikh. The mistake was rectified in 1953 when Sheikh was arrested for instigating people for right of self determination," Arora said.

"The same blunder is again being repeated by Congress as the party has given conditional support to Omar Abdullah..," he said.


So is the violence stage managed by the CM?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby chetak » 03 Aug 2010 21:26

Kanson wrote:Is Omar a capable administrator? He proved so many times as a demagouge. There are certain things which are negotiable with separatists. The moment he allowed not to hoist National Flag in sopore he gave away the weakness of this administration. He criticised his own police and insisted on reducing the IA powers. So far he followed the appeasement policy. If he is fast learner it is the right time to show his change of policy.


Omar is a useless son of a useless father. Money can be inherited not administrative capabilities.

He is just a pretty boy whose feet are now being held to the fire by his own father who will later step in to the CM gaddi at an opportune moment.

The abdullahs have always had a hidden agenda to make the kashmir a caliphate. This started out with the grandfather.

omar is part of a fashionable ruling class with all authority and zero responsibility.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Raghavendra » 03 Aug 2010 21:26

sunnyP wrote:Pakis speak: :roll:
Islamabad: Needling India over the violence in Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan on Tuesday asked it to "exercise restraint" while expressing "unequivocal solidarity" with the Kashmiris.

Pakis should exercise restraint, they killed 47 sindhis in pakistan in one day
47 killed,123 injured in violence in Karachi http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 549466.ece
Sindhis also need self-determination and a plebiscite, New Delhi should extend political, moral and diplomatic support to sindhis and shia people, Jiye Jiye Sindh :lol:

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby chetak » 03 Aug 2010 21:32

vera_k wrote:BJP asks Congress to withdraw support for Omar-led govt

"Congress was responsible for not trusting Maharaja Hari Singh and placing confidence in Sheikh. The mistake was rectified in 1953 when Sheikh was arrested for instigating people for right of self determination," Arora said.

"The same blunder is again being repeated by Congress as the party has given conditional support to Omar Abdullah..," he said.


So is the violence stage managed by the CM?


omar now states that the violence is not paki sponsored. Utter crap!!!

The fall guy police have stopped to listen to their political masters and are now reacting correctly.

So omar and father will now blame GOI for lack of support.

Violence escalates every time the situation with the pakis get bad. This is the fallout after the the Indians refused to back down from not talking if terrorism is not stopped.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2010 21:41

if one boy cannot rule a small state, can another rule a nation?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby joshvajohn » 03 Aug 2010 21:51

India attacks UN call for Kashmir calm
By Amy Kazmin in New Delhi
Published: August 3 2010 16:38 | Last updated: August 3 2010 16:38
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cf46f938-9f00 ... abdc0.html

Some within Indian government are playing at the right time in favour of Pakistan by killing more in Kashmir. This is the right time for GOI to show restraint and talk of peace with the people and leaders in Kashmir. It is wrong to use power against people if there is a strong democratically elected government. Because there is a good elected government in Kashmir it is essential to show restraint while get these radicals into prisons.

I would strongly suggest a special police force (like CRPF) mainly Muslims to deal with Kasmir situation. They will deal with these stone throwing folks in their own ways. But without relating to the local folks via such Mulsim connections it would not be working. If they throw stones we have to show to the folks that One Muslim is throwing stone on another Muslim and so these radicals either be calmed or be in their right places such as prisons.

Having said this GOvernment of India needs to take it forward what is exactly the immediate request of the stone throwers. Are they merely fighting for independence or are they asking for a withdrwals of army or police. Such immediate issues should be seriously addressed. Also long term issue of giving them more power and possibly a Parliament like Scotland would be a better idea for them within the consitution of India. I think in this era such thinking is possible.

At present it is essential to restrain our forces not to over react to the outsiders instigated violence in Valley. It means not to kill people in Valley which is very much needed for GOI at present.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby krithivas » 03 Aug 2010 22:04

^^^^^^^^^^^^
The UN General Secretary has denied making any statement. His spokesperson is a Pakisatani. Yet another Tactically brilliant, Strategically Stupid move.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Avinash R » 03 Aug 2010 22:13

joshvajohn wrote:India attacks UN call for Kashmir calm

fake story

joshvajohn wrote:Some within Indian government are playing at the right time in favour of Pakistan by killing more in Kashmir. This is the right time for GOI to show restraint and talk of peace with the people and leaders in Kashmir.

Nobody is playing games,stop believing in such BS. Rioters are being tackled with least minumum force, security forces have suffered many times over, have concern for them too and dont be partial to rioters.


joshvajohn wrote: It is wrong to use power against people if there is a strong democratically elected government. Because there is a good elected government in Kashmir it is essential to show restraint while get these radicals into prisons.


Even in democratically elected govts rioters are dealt with strongly for trying to murder, pillage and loot. Nothing wrong in implementing the law of the land strictly, and for god's sake stop chanting this restraint chant, have replied to your earlier chant here viewtopic.php?p=915408#p915408 which you choose to ignore and have gone again chanting this utterly stupid restraint chant. If rioters attack then they should also expect to suffer.



joshvajohn wrote:I would strongly suggest a special police force (like CRPF) mainly Muslims to deal with Kasmir situation.

Stop thinking communally, religion is not the criteria for recruitment in security organisations and should never be.


joshvajohn wrote:Having said this GOvernment of India needs to take it forward what is exactly the immediate request of the stone throwers.

So govt should talk to rioters, how about i land at your house and start stoning it, throwing petrol bombs and trying to kill your family, will you agree to my demands or call the police?


joshvajohn wrote:At present it is essential to restrain our forces not to over react to the outsiders instigated violence in Valley. It means not to kill people in Valley which is very much needed for GOI at present.

Again a meaningless call to show restraint. Stop being a mouthpiece for hooligans.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby D Roy » 03 Aug 2010 22:19

Sachin,

You are right about the British, they did know how to deal with "restive" populations in India...

Which is why that man gandhi and his silly long drawn political programs based on mystic and new age principles bamboozled them...


For a long time I was wondering when Kashmiri abduls will start their own "Gandhi" approach...

Just observe the rhetoric being spouted by that journalist about "not being lashkars".

He knows damn well that the "lashkar approach" has already failed against the might of our hardened troops, but nevertheless he will show his admiration for their capability to "murder troops" even while disavowing any emulation...

Of course behind the "non-violent" hide lashkars who take a shot or two just so that the CRPF retaliates ..

This is classic Abdul non-violent protest strategy employed all over the RoP world ...


Some Abduls actually think stone throwing is a form of "ahimsa"...

So its less Gandhi and more Gaza...

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby joshvajohn » 03 Aug 2010 22:25

Angst in Kashmir is 'different' this time, say Kashmiris
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Angst-in- ... 81806.aspx

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RamaY » 03 Aug 2010 22:32

Singha wrote:if one boy cannot rule a small state, can another rule a nation?


Gurudev,

You are asking the right question and of all the people you must know that it is not fair to ask right questions.

Omar fails to understand that he is on a slippery slope of lose-lose situation. He cannot win jihadi constituency by being soft on these street-rowdies, as that constituency is already claimed and controlled by APHC and PDP. His panacea is showing his nationalistic will by brutally suppressing anti-Indian tendencies and cultivate a new constituency.

Does he have the heart, vision, courage and political support to do that? I don't think so.

He can completely turn the tables by declaring that -

1. Shoot-at-sight orders on stone pelters irrespective of their age (a 10-15 yr old is not supposed to come to a political procession and throw stones at police to start with. They must remain in school or home during such processions)

2. Call out the names of secessionist supports and book them under POTA like law

3. Support Armed Forces' special powers act.

4. Call for extended Amarnatha Yatra

5. Seek political support from Jammu/Ladakh MLAs

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 04 Aug 2010 02:21

India dismisses ‘gratuitous' U.N. remarks on Kashmir

http://www.hindu.com/2010/08/04/stories/2010080454611000.htm

While the Ministry says the U.N. Secretary-General made no comments about the ongoing unrest in Kashmir, Mr. Ban ki-Moon's office maintained that such an observation was indeed made.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby joshvajohn » 04 Aug 2010 02:49

Kashmir Calls for Prudent Policy
by ArthurBase August 02, 2010
http://www.groundreport.com/Business/Ka ... cy/2926649


Sonia asks PDP to act in a mature manner
http://topnews.com.sg/content/23814-son ... ure-manner


Fire power not the answer'
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Fire-powe ... 81902.aspx


Kashmir issue: National Conference plays autonomy card to restore credibility
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ka ... ty_1413356
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/oth ... 528777.ece

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Prem » 04 Aug 2010 03:33

How much of this J&K tamasha is becuase of upcoming CWG in Delhi?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby sunnyP » 04 Aug 2010 03:47

Leaderless State


As violence in the Kashmir valley continues to escalate with eight more deaths on Monday taking the toll in the current spate of violence to 37 it is fast becoming clear that Srinagar is in the grip of a serious leadership crisis. The state government has been shown up by administrative as well as communication failures, worsening the law and order situation manifold. Chief minister Omar Abdullah, far from delivering on the promises of hope and a fresh approach, has displayed an unfortunate lack of leadership skills. His inability to effectively strike a chord not just with the people of his state but also members of his own ruling coalition has meant a damaging loss of credibility.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 252789.cms

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 04 Aug 2010 05:10

OK, do something useful if you are in AmirKhana:

HAF E-Press | Press Release | header top left
Tuesday August 3, 2010
header bottom gradient
HAF E-Press | Press Release | header right

TELL YOUR CONGRESSMAN TO SUPPORT H. RES 1701-
CONDEMNING VIOLATIONS AGAINST KASHMIRI PANDITS



Namaste HAF Supporters -


Less than one minute of your time can make a difference! Click here to send a pre-written letter to your Representative urging him or her to support H. Res 1601, an important bill that recognizes and condemns the human rights violations suffered by the Kashmiri Pandits for over two decades. Congressman Frank Pallone (D-NJ) just recently introduced H. Res 1601 to the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, and it needs 25 co-sponsors to be sent to the full House for a vote. So act now to urge your Congressman to support H. Res 1601!

Between 1989 and 1991, almost 400,000 Kashmiri Hindus were systematically and brutally driven from their homes through a campaign of murder, rape and intimidation. Over two decades later these Kashmiri Pandits, with many continuing to live in poverty-stricken refugee camps in India, have little to no hope of returning to Kashmir. The refugee camps are overcrowded, lack basic necessities such as drinking water and medicine and do not have adequate facilities for sanitation. Additionally, education and employment opportunities are severely lacking. As a result of these dire conditions, the Kashmiri Pandit refugee population faces serious health issues including a high incidence of disease, depression, stress-related problems and high death-rate. The situation in Kashmir itself is no better, and just this week, unrest reared its ugly head. Shops and educational institutions have been shut down and transport is off the roads due to a separatist sponsored shutdown.

H. Res 1601 resolves that the House of Representatives:

1. condemns the extremist violence, lack of religious freedom, and human rights violations committed against Kashmiri Pandits, which they have endured for more than two decades; and
2. insists that terrorist infrastructure in the region must be dismantled and terrorists should be held accountable for their actions.

All you have to do is click here, enter your name, email and complete address and press the red Sign button. The pre-written letter will automatically be sent to your district’s Congressman. It’s that easy. Do your part, and help us reach our goal of 1000 letters by signing on today!

Respectfully,
The HAF Team

Text of Letter Automatically Sent through Change.org:

Dear Representative,

I write today to urge you to join Representative Frank Pallone (D-NJ) in supporting H. Res 1601, an important bill recognizing and condemning the religious persecution and human rights violations of Kashmiri Pandits that have been going on since 1989.

Over the past two decades, approximately 400,000 Kashmiri Hindu Pandits have been forcibly evicted from their homes and many continue to live in poverty-stricken refugee camps throughout India, with no hope of returning to the Kashmir valley. As the United States is a leading defender of human rights, it is vital that elected members of the U.S. House of Representatives take a strong stance in 1) condemning the extremist violence, lack of religious freedom, and human rights violations committed against Kashmiri Pandits; and 2) insisting that terrorist infrastructure in the region be dismantled, and terrorists be held accountable for their actions.

Many international human rights organizations, including the Hindu American Foundation (HAF) and Indo-American Kashmir Forum (IAKF), two organizations which I support, have noted the campaign of intimidation and violence directed by foreign militants and foreign terrorist organizations against Kashmiri Pandits. Moreover, many of the groups that have claimed responsibility for these attacks have been designated as foreign terrorist organizations by the US State Department. It is now time for Congress to recognize the serious human rights violations inflicted upon the Kashmiri Pandits for well over twenty years.

H. Res 1601 is currently in the Committee of Foreign Affairs and needs your support to bringing it to a full House for a vote. As a resident of your district and a supporter of human rights, I urge you to sponsor H. Res 1601 and thank you in advance for your support.

The Hindu American Foundation is a 501(c)(3), non-profit, non-partisan organization promoting the Hindu and American ideals of understanding, tolerance and pluralism.

Contact HAF at office@hafsite.org

Designed by Teajuice Studios, LLC | http://teajuicestudios.com

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 04 Aug 2010 05:14

For the reading-challenged, here is the quick link to the Petition itself
urge_congress_to_support_h_res_1601_-_condemn_human_rights_violations_against_kashmiri_pandits

http://www.change.org/hafsite/petitions ... ri_pandits

and here is House Resolution 1601:

http://thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.RES.1601
H.RES.1601 -- Recognizing that the religious freedom and human rights violations of Kashmiri Pandits has been ongoing since 1989. (Introduced in House - IH)

HRES 1601 IH

111th CONGRESS

2d Session

H. RES. 1601

Recognizing that the religious freedom and human rights violations of Kashmiri Pandits has been ongoing since 1989.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

July 30, 2010

Mr. PALLONE submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs

RESOLUTION

Recognizing that the religious freedom and human rights violations of Kashmiri Pandits has been ongoing since 1989.

Whereas Jammu and Kashmir has an ancient culture of religious tolerance and pluralism, where Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, and Christians practiced their faith freely in an atmosphere of mutual respect and peace until 1989;

Whereas Kashmiri Pandits are the original inhabitants of Kashmir, tracing their heritage and culture back several millennia;

Whereas Kashmiri Pandits have been the victims of documented human rights violations resulting in the severe curtailment of their religious freedom for more than two decades;

Whereas the Kashmiri Pandit population has declined from 400,000 in 1989 to a current level of less than 4,000 in the Kashmir valley and many Pandits continue to live in refugee camps;

Whereas international human rights organizations have noted the campaign of intimidation and violence directed by foreign militants and foreign terrorist organizations against Kashmiri Pandits;

Whereas thousands of Kashmiri Pandits, elected officials, and military personnel have been killed in terrorist attacks; and

Whereas numerous groups that have claimed responsibility for these attacks have been designated as foreign terrorist organizations by the United States Department of State: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) condemns the extremist violence, lack of religious freedom, and human rights violations committed against Kashmiri Pandits, which they have endured for more than two decades; and

(2) insists that terrorist infrastructure in the region must be dismantled and terrorists should be held accountable for their actions.


Very unlikely that you will see even this much care from the "Parliament" in Dera Sonia Begum where "Human Rights" means appeasing the drug-crazed Stoned Stone-Throwers and the other terrorist rats, for a few votes and many crores of rupees more.


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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 04 Aug 2010 06:34


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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby anmol » 04 Aug 2010 07:53

Dispatch: the politics of policing Kashmir : Foreign Policy.

By Jeffrey Stern, August 3, 2010 Tuesday, August 3, 2010


Last summer, I sat by a pool at an old hotel in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir. Mock stucco and wood paneling vaguely recalled the architecture of the Tudor era; this building looked like one of the characteristic Kashmiri houseboats had sprouted roots and grown widthwise as well, except that the houseboats float on Kashmir's glass-still Dal Lake; the Broadway Hotel is moored to the earth, while Kashmir moves on around it.

This is the kind of place where British bluebloods and the privileged Indian castes came on holiday to socialize amidst the Himalayas, but the life of the freelance journalist is a more solitary enterprise, an exercise in incidental contacts and friends of sort-of-friends, depended on for life and livelihood. And so I sat in a relic of the Raj years, kept company by 22 ounces of lager and a pad of neatly scripted names, belonging mostly to separatist leaders.

Distance and liquor make for easy acquaintance and I soon found myself talking with the two afternoon patrons with whom I shared an otherwise empty poolside bar; these two, travelers as well, sort of -- Indian soldiers in plainclothes, both speaking of Kashmir as if it were a foreign detachment, though it's a place India calls India. They were both officers, but came off as accomplices in their own satire, the colonel wearing a beard and a khaki baseball cap, offering that he was Sikh by faith, but observant only enough for an exemption to the military's shaving rule. Still smiling, he explained that they had the day off because they were supposed to be appraising market prices, though by the end of the afternoon, they hadn't appraised much more than the going rate for oversized bottles of Kingfisher beer.

And so there they were, and there was I, granting the opening argument in my own little adjudication of the Kashmir conflict to the Indian government. The two advocates: an, immensely likeable colonel with a casual air, attentively refreshing our rounds, and his sidekick, a squirrelly little major, quiet but choleric, dark-browed and brooding.

"We did learn one thing from Uncle Sam," the small one says, defensive almost instantly. "Indians learned not to break down doors. From you in Vietnam. And what about Iraq?" (A year later, when I reached an Indian army public relations officer on the phone, he said before we even exchanged introductions, "What is there to ask? We don't use helicopter gunships like you guys do." Such is the pressure on the Indian soldier in Kashmir that he often defaults to defensive, as if a question about the Indian military is necessarily an indictment of it.)

The colonel elaborated: "If we know a militant is hiding out in a house, maybe now we will let him go. What do we get from killing two people with AK-47s? It's better to lose one or two militants than to go into a house and maybe make four or five more." This soldier saw a cycle of violence in which an army helps its enemy grow--militants bait them, civilians suffer when the state shoots back, and resentment is felt more profoundly for those who open fire than it is for those who draw it. It is historical motif that body counts tend to favor the resistance, which means violence does too, and it's why, perhaps, there are so many Indian troops in Kashmir: violence doesn't need to be suppressed if it's effectively discouraged.


But the Indian military is an animal calibrated for fighting Pakistan; policing Kashmir is a contortion of sorts. You dispatch a soldier to his own country, give him a gun but tell him not to fire it, send him out to control a crowd as though he were a municipal cop assigned to parade detail. The United States has put its soldiers in a similar position -- trained them how to shoot and then tried to train them how not to, because a country's military doctrine evolves faster than its soldier does. But American soldiers at least have whatever absolution is afforded by being someplace else. In Kashmir, when a frightened soldier reacts, he is firing on his own countrymen.

***

For this reason and others, "The army is leaving the law and order work to the [Jammu & Kashmir] police," my colonel friend said, because it's hard to make a soldier and a man he chaperones feel they're sharing a mother country. Still, Indian soldiers are ubiquitous in Kashmir, and as this summer's seasonal violence ebbs into its second month, there remains the inescapable fact that it was, in typical fashion, catalyzed by Indian security forces' lethal use of non-lethal force. Already, 30 people have been killed this summer. So as people take to the streets to make spectacle of their resentment for India, they ask more ardently: why is the military here? Why are they in the capital? Are there terrorists here?

Few would dispute that India has suffered dearly from terrorists who have some association with the region of Kashmir, whether raised or having trained there, most notably the attacks on the Indian Parliament in 2001 and the siege on the city of Mumbai in 2008. In the latter incident, the attackers trained in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, the scenario that distresses India the most: militants trained in Pakistan and pushed across the Line of Control into India. It's the recurring nightmare, and variants of it are cited as justification for the hundreds of thousands of Indian troops keeping an eye on Kashmir. As we talked that afternoon, the colonel shared his own adaptation. Speaking like a profiler might, he described ‘the enemy' as "someone who leaves his home where he's nothing and comes here, gets paid more, he's a living martyr." The colonel's demeanor changed: "You know, it's very hard for us. We have a hard time protecting our sources. The militants, they will maybe kill or torture someone they know is talking to us." He draws from his mug, ashes a cigarette. "How do we make them feel safe? It's harder and harder to get information."

His description portraits an enemy that the Indian soldier carries with him like part of his equipment, to help him feel he's on the right side of things; that he is not stationed in Kashmir to control Kashmiris, but to insulate them from violent-minded intruders here to poison the population. It's a description however, that is wrong. Or at best, it's unproductive. Because right now, the troublemakers in Kashmir are not trained militants with guns and bombs torturing people to keep them quiet. They're kids throwing stones.

***

When New Delhi sent 3,000 more troops to Kashmir on July 7 to quell the violence, journalists reported that even within the military there was resentment of the decision. Writing as a guest columnist for a Kashmiri publication, Seema Mustafa, who served as editor of Asian Age newspaper and Covert Magazine, said that "reluctant generals had no choice but to obey the political directive, although they privately fumed against the decision, describing it as dangerous and short sighted." Though her sources weren't revealed, her article suggested the generals seem to understand something politicians seemed not to: that the more Indian troops there are in Kashmir, the easier it is for kids to believe the least sympathetic appraisals of India -- that India doesn't care about Kashmiris, doesn't trust them, doesn't believe they're deserving of the rights the rest of Indians enjoy. It almost doesn't matter whether these things are true: for those inclined to believe that they are, every Indian soldier serves as proof. "The troops rolled into the state capital," Mustafa wrote, "sealing the anger and the hostility in the Valley." And here is one of the punch lines in the tragicomedy of Kashmir: by deploying hundreds of thousands of troops to prevent the radicalization of Kashmir, India may be expediting it.

The same day the troops marched into Srinagar, the government made another self-defeating move, canceling "curfew passes" for Kashmiri journalists. It restored them two days later, but during the blackout, while journalists complained that they were being gagged and the presses fell silent, the people did not. Without newspapers rumors rule, sometimes inspired by political and religious leaders but rarely restrained by them, and the protests grew more violent. When legitimate reporting stops, an illegitimate kind begins, which for India is far worse. Omar Abdullah, Kashmir's chief minister, caught on to the phenomenon quickly but his solution was to try and prevent this kind of reporting too, by blocking text messages. Even more than before people talked, stories flourished and formed the disparate fictions observers compile when trying to decide who's right.

Whenever Kashmiris become especially agitated, Delhi looks west, assigning responsibility for the violence to Pakistan or militants hosted there, because it's easier to blame a foreign and specific interest than it is to implicate an entire population. Accordingly, when violence swelled this summer, India released audio recordings of a conversation it said proved Pakistani militants had a hand in the violence. Few found the tapes convincing, and right now, Pakistan's role should be almost a secondary concern. Pakistani influence or not, pretty much everyone in Kashmir seems angry, most feel humiliated by the troops, and every day, it gets harder to control the young men. India's Kashmir crisis is revealing itself to be less a political problem than a demographic one: if there are indeed militants in Kashmir, the ones coming from outside should be of far less concern to India than the ones coming of age.

***

While Indian soldiers do their best to discharge their duties, the rest of India has other things to worry about most of the time. A friend in Delhi pointed to "intellectual fatigue" as a factor (Here in the U.S., the public is weary of the Afghan conflict, long, by Americans standards, at not-quite nine years. India has had trouble in Kashmir since partition in 1947-in other words, India has been struggling with Kashmir for as long as India has been). Separatists, conversely, are energetic and eager to speak; they respond quickly to interview requests, they send information to journalists before journalists even know to ask for it, they form committees with impressive-sounding members and list-serves populated by anyone who will listen. They recognize the press as a weapon, so it follows that the military sometimes treats questions as hostile fire. And anyway, the military has protocols and restrictions, wherein certain people are authorized to speak and others aren't, and information needs to be verified, at least approved, before it's released. It's not a phenomenon unique to India, nor one for which India bares special responsibility. A state will always appear to have less time for you than the people resisting it.

That afternoon at the Broadway, both soldiers understood this phenomenon even before I did. As a foreign journalist, they were certain, I would soon go out and hear horrible things about their comrades in the army. Likely, that's why I was there; to report on gang rapes and mass graves, all the illustrative trespasses Kashmiri separatists cite on their long list of grievances with the Indian military. The young major resented me for it before I even began reporting, instilled, as he was, with all the vigor of a young man told he's fighting for a righteous cause on behalf of an ungracious people. He was an Indian military man, after all, and I a journalist. Regardless of what I felt or feel, to him, my presence in Kashmir was my disapproval of his.

Jeffrey Stern is the international engagement manager at the National Constitution Center and a journalist who has traveled extensively through South Asia. His writing has appeared on Esquire.com, Newsweek.com, Time.com, Slate Magazine, the Philadelphia Inquirer, and British Esquire.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby D Roy » 04 Aug 2010 08:08

So Gora is doing his "humanitarian" bit, in a very subtle way...

I wonder why these guys never talk about 370 and the subsidies extended to the KM population..

and the fact that they became really restive only 22 years ago.. but then that would mean pointing fingers 'westward" which a gora journalist would obviously be loathe to do...


And Gora media talks about neutrality and press freedom...

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 04 Aug 2010 09:18

They're kids throwing stones.


Wrong. They are STONED junkies throwing stones. The IE had an article describing how the "stone throwers" are doing that to pay for the drugs that their instigators promise them.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Anindya » 04 Aug 2010 10:06

Yet another exodus....

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/death-on-the-rise-as-nonkashmiris-flee-valley/128135-3.html?from=tn


Srinagar/Jammu As violence continues unabated in the Kashmir Valley, people from outside the state working with central government organisations, particularly the railways, banks and insurance companies, have started fleeing the area, while travellers are wary about visiting the state.

The threat perception among the non-Kashmiris, who were working in different parts of the Valley, has increased after a series of attacks on the railway stations in Sopore and Budgam. More than 100 employees of railways working in the Valley have come to Jammu as they were "scared" to stay there.

"There was stone throwing and the crowds would move menacingly. It was becoming difficult for us to survive there," said an employee of the railways working in Sopore railway station that was torched by a mob. He requested that his name should not be revealed.

These employees have sought transfers from the Valley, where they believed "nothing is safe". Sources also confirmed that employees of nationalised banks who hail from outside Jammu and Kashmir, too have shifted out. "We face a threat to our lives. There is no security for us," said an employee of a nationalised bank.

....

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby sum » 04 Aug 2010 10:46

Colossal failure of our intel setup there...

Can understand situation catching us off-guard in 89 where we didn't have a intel network in J&K and were stretched in SL, Punjab etc but how did we miss the situation this time around ( with a supposedly super duper intel backbone in the valley)??

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Anindya » 04 Aug 2010 11:05

From http://sify.com/news/railways-suspend-operations-in-kashmir-news-default-kiekEcaiedb.html

Jammu: The Indian Railways suspended its operations in the Kashmir Valley for an indefinite period after violent mobs burnt railway stations and targeted tracks in some towns, officials said on Wednesday.

The decision was taken after mobs burnt stations in Sopore and Budgam, besides harassing non-local employees, an official in the Northern Railways said.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby chetak » 04 Aug 2010 11:27

Anindya wrote:From http://sify.com/news/railways-suspend-operations-in-kashmir-news-default-kiekEcaiedb.html

Jammu: The Indian Railways suspended its operations in the Kashmir Valley for an indefinite period after violent mobs burnt railway stations and targeted tracks in some towns, officials said on Wednesday.

The decision was taken after mobs burnt stations in Sopore and Budgam, besides harassing non-local employees, an official in the Northern Railways said.



This is sheer pakistani jealousy, plain and simple.

Targeted destructions.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Carl_T » 04 Aug 2010 11:33

A ploy to move attention away from TSP's support of Taliban after being exposed for all by WikiLeaks?


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