J & K news and discussion

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Sep 2010 13:16

letter in current economist from an irish gentleman lays out the myth of kashmiri azadi and the infeasibility of any viable azad solution whilst pakistan is in its current form. basically saying - forget about it, stay with india

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 13 Sep 2010 13:36

So the worthies burned down a missionary school today to protest the Quran (non) burning in the US!!

Police fired, wounded many, critically injured one. Two things to note

1. The carefully crafted "Secular inclusive Cashmeeriyat" comes unraveling from time to time
2. Today's protests were not about Azadi but about the Quran burning. People still showed up in force. This is nothing but muscle flexing by the worthies (you know who) to demonstrate that they can bring people out on the streets whenever they want, for whatever issue they want.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 13 Sep 2010 14:37

In Kashmir, India should go for the fist. Some options:

Kids pelting stones or raising anti-India slogans: Any kid under 16 who is found to be pelting stones, should be taken into state custody. His parents should be charged with negligence of responsibility for proper upbringing, which includes education and public decency. The kid should be shifted to a reeducation camp in Bihar, renamed Madan Mohan and brain-washed with ABC of Indian patriotism. Should the kid ever return home, he should be the first to kick the local Pakistan-friendly mullah on his teeth and to spit on his parents for their Indian animosity.
Hurry-Rats, Pakistan sympathizers and Islamists: Break their hold on some people by exposing the money they received from Pakistan, or properties they have purchased not commensurate with their stated earnings. The best thing to do is to set up a tanzeem of purportedly anti-Indian KMs, and let them go and bust up these Hurry-Rats for being too friendly with India, and willing to cut deals with India. If the other Hurry-Rats protest too much, that these are all Indian militias doing that, it doesn't matter. In fact this way, everybody would be confused, and wouldn't know, whether to be pro-India and get killed or be anti-India and get killed by Tanzeems claiming Islamic Radicalism as their ideology. Any notes and messages the Tanzeems write should be in chaste Urdu as spoken and written in Pakistan.
Protesters and Demonstrators: All protests and demonstrations need to be filmed. Those who are too eager to participate, should have their properties confiscated and handed over to pro-Indian KMs. This will bring about a division in their ranks. Any Kashmiri family who profits from such transfer of property, would become beholden to the system, to India, for otherwise they could lose the property again or would lose security support from Indian forces, which would make them susceptible to those KMs who were pushed out. Secondly the greed of getting a new house could drive many KMs to show themselves as pro-Indian. Just giving money and jobs to KMs does not help. If they have to work for money, they consider it their own due and are not grateful to government. If one gives them money handouts, they feel emboldened to continue their anti-Indian behavior, in the hope of getting even more money. Playing musical chairs in Srinagar property market could be a different ball-game. If there are too few KMs willing to play along, get people from outside Kashmir Valley to start housing in the houses of anti-Indian Kashmiris. One could also consider using some of the new crowd control technologies.
Social Networks: It is important for the state to map out all the social networks in Kashmir Valley. Using network mapping software to map families, friends, religious guidance providers, co-workers, neighbors, etc. It would help deal with any insurgents more easily. The state would be able to apply far finer-tuned system of pressures and incentives on KMs in general.
Other Ethnicities: KMs have had too much prominence and influence in the life of the State. Other ethnicities and people need to get that prominence - the Gujjars, the Jammu Muslims, the Shia, etc. The Kashmiri Muslims should be deligitimized. Also the money flowing into the State should go to pro-Indian Muslims of J&K (I am deliberately not bringing Hindus and Buddhists in here). Instead of other Muslims feeling part and parcel of the Kashmir Muslim populace, the identities of these Muslims on the edges of the Kashmiri Muslims should be demarcated better and these populations should be weaned away from their path. Within the Kashmiri Muslim population itself, more divisions on the basis of caste etc. should be created and exploited. So if there is a protest next time, India can say that it is just the racist Kashmiri Sayyids who are protesting against India.
Militants: Sufficient pressure should be brought to bear on all who decide to pick up arms against the Indian state, through their families. Eviction from house, should be considered. Forced Marriage of their daughters to some Bihari Muslims can also be on the table. Withholding and offering medical treatment to parents can also be used as a lever. Some time in jail for a relative could also prove to be an incentive.
Ulema: All the Mullahs in the valley should be forced to undergo strict monitoring both by recognized state agents as well as by undercover agents. Any Mullah who preaches Jihad and violence against the Indian State or other religious groups should have all his property confiscated and his mosque should be turned over to some other more moderate Mullah. Any Jihadist Mullah should be taken down without remorse or hesitation. Any protests from Kashmiris on the issue should be dealt with accordingly. In fact, he can be taken down by some more 'pious' group for not being hard-line enough or for pedophilia.

India needs to get more creative in dealing with these Kashmiris.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 13 Sep 2010 15:57

Those of us who have been following the K issue would notice that, this time the situation is very different from all previous protests. I think the whole thing is very intelligently managed and no Pakis are incapable of such a feat.

The separatists are now trying to show that Indian State itself even after so called democratic election is incapable of administrating the valley. The anger towards a novice CM is now milked to generate a separatist movement. Omar is now completely alienated. If the President's rule is introduced, the whole election theory will be reduced to a gimmick.

GOI needs to be careful. I see an opportunity where in Huriyat could be forced to join the mainstream. This requires some BIG time statesmanship and political maneuvering.

My 2 cents.

May be NC government could be sacrificed, democratically. Somehow lose majority in Assembly and a fresh poll is announced. Reduce Omar to a caretaker. Announce polls 1 year from now. Ask Hurryat to contest, call the bluff.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Sep 2010 16:01

shouldnt the CM be helped to govern the state? why undermine the elected representative?

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 13 Sep 2010 16:19

Lalmohan wrote:shouldnt the CM be helped to govern the state? why undermine the elected representative?

Sir, CM has lost his credibility completely and right now he is the biggest liability. Omar is seen to be a very hands off CM who spent most of the time in Delhi. Even his party members didn't have access to him. He may be an elected representative but if he loses majority in Assembly, he would be no longer the chosen one. Let him fight another election.

Congress has to bite the bullet. I think this is better option then president's rule.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 13 Sep 2010 17:44

13 primates have so far been dispatched to meet their 72...

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 13 Sep 2010 18:47

The time to get tough with these barbaric animals is NOW. GOI should get all media out of the state, switch of mobile towers, phones and internet and start shooting anyone that engages in violence. If enough of these animals are sent to their 72, the rest will behave.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 13 Sep 2010 18:51

I think the protest in Kashmir cannot be put off unless India takes the army to Pakistan Border. It is essential that India considers taking over Pakistan Occupied Kashimir by force in order to drive out Chinese threat from that part. India needs to consider freeing Kashmir for her own interest from Pakistan and grant her an autonomy protected by her own constitution similar what India did to Bangladesh but this time it will be autonomy.

Questions for such attempts will be:

1. What if Pakistan threatens with a war including using nuclear arsenal? Yes this is a real threat but provoking Kashmirites against India in a vilolent way is already a proxy war Pakistan carry out against India.

2. Second why India cannot grant full freedom to Kashmir? Once it is granted the Hindu Pandits will be driven out. Then we have 130 millions Muslims in India will come under pressure from majority to move out of India. This is unthinkable. This is one of hte reasons for dialogue and possible step moving forward

3. What about dividing Pakistan into many pieces? If this is not possible India has to start a proxy war within Pakistan to divide it into many nations. Because Pakistan has failed to control terrorism against her own people and promoting terror across the world. Now for the fear of the West they are keeping quiet and waiting for their chances. Once they get a reason such as buring of a Koran or anything they will again do it. I am sure that ISI was involved in the Sept 11 incident of the twin towers either they were aware of it or they must have helped these guys to get access to something.

4. I also think that the government of India can seriously consider providing an autnomous status to the Kashmir government in a sense that they will have a bit more share of power within the system of administration they have got including a semi parliament like. India needs a radical thinking forward. THe old status quo is not going to help anyone in this regard.

5. Unless the India gets a more technologically advanced airpower, Indian army is going to suffer a lot casualities at the ground. In the case of any attack it will take a bit of time tocounter it. India is not aware of the fact that some times Pakistan can surprise India in many ways in the case of attacks. I do not think india is prepare for it and i hope air superiority is essential. Only with the help of US And other countries India will be able to counter both Chinese and Pakistanis in this regard.

The best way forward in Kashmir is to hold a dialogue with people while keeping a threat to Pakistan that India takes things seriously including taking over the remaining part of Kashmir. Also considering granting an autonomy means to attract the rest of occupied Kashmir into Indian Kashmir and thus turn the table against Pakistan. Unless there is a clear superior power to counter China and Pakistan this kind of proxy war will continue.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Sep 2010 18:54

^^^ i disagree with Suppiah, that is the outcome the handlers are looking for. they want blood and martyrdom - not for itself, but for the benefit of television. the youth of sunni-kashmir are the cannon fodder of the next phase of the ISI's unrelenting tide of venom. western media has already lost interest, so the stakes have to be raised, the tension ratcheted up... very cynical. its a slow motion 26/11 drama, but the actors out behind stage left remain the same. war, repression, retalliation - these are exactly the things that the TSPA jarnails want

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 13 Sep 2010 19:00

doesn't anyone feel fed up and tired about this Kashmir violence every now and then?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 13 Sep 2010 19:25

RajeshA wrote:In Kashmir, India should go for the fist. Some options:

Kids pelting stones or raising anti-India slogans: Any kid under 16 who is found to be pelting stones, should be taken into state custody. His parents should be charged with negligence of responsibility for proper upbringing, which includes education and public decency. The kid should be shifted to a reeducation camp in Bihar, renamed Madan Mohan and brain-washed with ABC of Indian patriotism.

...

India needs to get more creative in dealing with these Kashmiris.

Nice list.

If wishes were horses ....

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Sep 2010 19:41

Sri wrote:Those of us who have been following the K issue would notice that, this time the situation is very different from all previous protests. I think the whole thing is very intelligently managed and no Pakis are incapable of such a feat.

The separatists are now trying to show that Indian State itself even after so called democratic election is incapable of administrating the valley. The anger towards a novice CM is now milked to generate a separatist movement. Omar is now completely alienated. If the President's rule is introduced, the whole election theory will be reduced to a gimmick.

GOI needs to be careful. I see an opportunity where in Huriyat could be forced to join the mainstream. This requires some BIG time statesmanship and political maneuvering.

My 2 cents.

May be NC government could be sacrificed, democratically. Somehow lose majority in Assembly and a fresh poll is announced. Reduce Omar to a caretaker. Announce polls 1 year from now. Ask Hurryat to contest, call the bluff.

This is the dilemma for the congress.

The father farook campaigned in the last elections and projected himself as the CM candidate and managed to win a lot of votes.

Thereafter yuvraj interfered and nominated the son omar as the CM against the will of the father.

In a sulk, farook dashed off to south africa for the IPL.

He was manaoed and rehabilitated in the central cabinet.

Who in the congress is going to tell the yuvraj that he got it very wrong and go to president's rule?? or any other scenario??

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Sep 2010 19:54

The ones who actually make the decisions are imo the root cause of this issue, in fact I do not blame the Kashmiri locals for this, had I been one of them I would have done exactly the same. I mean seriously if I were a KM what/whom do I look upto ? Terrorists like Yaseen Mallik and Geelani are local heroes, terrorists who killed innocents and KPs were allowed to return back to normal life all to garner some cheap votes ('Kashmiriyat' is an ostensible reason; in this case GoI is no different from GoP ). And this maha MC Mirwaiz Moulvi Muhammad Umar Farooq had the gall to call on the KPs and say “We invite them to join the ongoing freedom struggle as our struggle is not area specific. We are seeking freedom for all parts of Jammu and Kashmir and its people irrespective of their religion, creed and cast.” . The SOB was featured on TIME magazine as well. As a local teen/kid if I see above mentioned people leading a cozy life all by killing innocents and holding the GoI at ransom why shouldn't I emulate them ? What incentive does GoI provide to a law abiding Kashmiri ? I am pretty sure the Kashmiriyat spouting lynch mob would drag the neutral/agnostic KMs and over a period time the latter will too join the party.
Had GoI made an example of terrorists in JKLF and Huriyat back in 90s when Paki terrorists were being killed left-right and center we wouldn't have faced this situation today. This habit of sitting over problems and letting them grow big and then claim that nothing can be done but 'compromise' is a disease which has been passed from one bozo to another in 10 janpath . I have no grudges against those in Kashmir for they are as evil as GoI allows them to be. Even today look at what chootiyas in Dilli are upto they are discussing AFSPA , who the fck are they trying to fool here ? IS AFSPA even remotely related to the mess in the valley ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Sep 2010 20:20

Btw Kashmiriyat has already manifested itself into Pakistaniyat, usual suspects burnt down public property and a school (ToI says run by 'minority' ) all in the name of protests against someone burning Quran in USA. Wow just wow.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 13 Sep 2010 20:28

Can you imagine if such a movement happened in any other state of India, will the Central govt. sit and watch.
Remove Omar, he is instigating all this in background. Without his support, it wouldnt have crossed the threshold. He and his father aspires to become a PM of J&K now. Better to put them on the rest and let the Army take over. Within 6 months things will be normal and then integrate J&K better with India, and Pls. remove foolish Article 370.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Sep 2010 20:29

so, what you have in effect is that the srinagar valley is the frontline between free peoples and the global islamo-fascist onslaught - dressed up in the cloak of apparent intifadas - since the handlers know that its media friendly and fools the gullible. the people of india have to make a strategic choice - another somnath or no more ever again?

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 13 Sep 2010 20:31

Jana tha Japan pahunchgaye Cheen

"The CCS lasted 3 hours and in the end they appealed for calm."

This is what i just heard on IBN / NDTV / Times Now.

The thing is, this was a administrative problem which became a political problem and now has manifested into something all together different.

I completely agree with Negi Jee, the problem is the ineptness of guys dealing with the problem.

Kashmiri youth wanted action against some specific officers who were involved in killing of some young people.

Even in heartland India things like this happens every day. SSP is posted / shifted /suspended. Why couldn’t Omar / Dilli do that?

I have said it earlier and I say it again. Omar is a political novice. He can’t manage Puducherry let alone the valley bonfire.
He needs to be ejected …. Democratically and new elections need to be called.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Sep 2010 20:40

^ Omar can't do nothing here the separatists are not asking for a separate state within the republic of India they are asking for an independent 'Country' so it requires the GoI to step in and take action.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Sep 2010 20:47

Army jawan shot dead in south Kashmir

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 13 Sep 2010 20:55

Latest from the stone-pelting KM perverts

The BBC's Altaf Hussain in Srinagar says reports of Koran desecration in the US have stoked anger.

This is puzzling to me. Obviously, such a development would not be in the interest of TSP and Hurriyat traitors. I mean as long as stone pelters whine about us SDREs commiting "human rights" absues and wanting "freedom", white "liberals" in the west will be on full throttle expressing solidarity with the KMs. But once KMs start whining about Koran burning in US and mosque on ground zero, they loose sympathy. So, either the plan went awry like the attack on the Jewish center during 26/11, or me hoping against hope, a brilliant RAA maneuver to spread this line of thought. If this can assume a life of its own, and white media picks up on this, I would say it is a masterly stroke by RAA that even a VVS Laxman staright drive off an Ozzie speedster cannot match

. But at the same time, I won't be surprised that if TSPA/ISI, as they always do in Kashmir, will come up with a master stroke of its own to prevent the perception that the stone pelters are Islamic fascists.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 13 Sep 2010 20:57

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... iltofriend

Describe colour of terrorism in Kashmir valley: Narendra Modi to Chidambaram

"I would like to ask him what would be the colour of terrorism faced by the people of Kashmir. What would be colour of violence faced by thousands of Kashmiri pandits," Modi asked.

"The Congress is leading the country towards disaster with its vote bank politics and policy on terrorism," Modi said, adding those who try to malign the image of progressive Gujarat will get a befitting reply from its people.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 13 Sep 2010 20:59

Sri wrote: Kashmiri youth wanted action against some specific officers who were involved in killing of some young people.

Please take this naive crap to some "South Asia" forum where you will find a receptive audience. "Kashmiri youth", my f%^&ing foot. These are violent Islamo fascists, no other label fits them.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Sep 2010 21:00

Had GoI made an example of terrorists in JKLF and Huriyat back in 90s when Paki terrorists were being killed left-right and center we wouldn't have faced this situation today. This habit of sitting over problems and letting them grow big and then claim that nothing can be done but 'compromise' is a disease which has been passed from one bozo to another in 10 janpath

Good point....

The ex-army chiefs were virtually breathing fire on Times Now and Manish "never stop shouting" Tiwari had to beat a hasty retreat when confronted with facts about the AFSPA...

The show ended with Gen Malik mentioning that the average soldier will only say a silent prayer and thank god that the GoI didn't let them down today ( after CCS meet ended with no result)

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Sep 2010 21:01

Is it possible that every time these KSTs do gathering stunt like this ,let tehre be few large Paki size IED'to open the gates of heaven for these Cashmee-rats. Ek Panth do Kaaj, they get their freedom and we get our peace.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Sep 2010 21:02

CRamS wrote: This is puzzling to me. Obviously, such a development would not be in the interest of TSP and Hurriyat traitors. I mean as long as stone pelters whine about us SDREs commiting "human rights" absues and wanting "freedom", white "liberals" in the west will be on full throttle expressing solidarity with the KMs. But once KMs start whining about Koran burning in US and mosque on ground zero, they loose sympathy.

Nope why would they loose any sympathy , who is the proverbial EVIL here ? The one who burnt the Quran , no ? Actually this was all planned , you see Mirwaiz had sought a permission to take out a peaceful procession from Omar so going violent over the 'azaadi' rhetoric was out of question this 'brun a quran' episode was an ideal excuse to carry on with the scheduled program . There was sympathy for them in the 90s too and it will continue to remain until they start wielding guns and suicide vests but by then it will be too late.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Sep 2010 21:03

CRamS, the problem with a devolved jehad model is that central control over the arms tends to be directional and not specific. if you have stoked up passions using the YYY model, then any of the Y's may cause a ramp-up of fervour in a very independant manner. RAW doesnt have to do anything, the tactically brilliant are doing what they do best, think rage-boy

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Sep 2010 21:03

So, either the plan went awry like the attack on the Jewish center during 26/11, or me hoping against hope, a brilliant RAA maneuver to spread this line of thought. If this can assume a life of its own, and white media picks up on this, I would say it is a masterly stroke by RAA that even a VVS Laxman staright drive off an Ozzie speedster cannot match

CRS-saar,

May be its just the usual strategic brilliance of the Pakis who do not know when to hold back when a small opportunity is noticed.. Doubt that our intel community is in much control on the ground in J&K ( hoping im wrong though)

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Sep 2010 21:06

What did we ukhaad of these people when they killed and displaced KPs ? (compare and contrast riots in dilli or godhara with treatment KPs got both at the hands of terrorists , our GoI and the media) So why is that we fool ourselves with the hope that burning a school in response to burning Quran will change things ?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 13 Sep 2010 21:09

- self-deleted -

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 13 Sep 2010 21:33

CRamS wrote:
Sri wrote: Kashmiri youth wanted action against some specific officers who were involved in killing of some young people.

Please take this naive crap to some "South Asia" forum where you will find a receptive audience. "Kashmiri youth", my f%^&ing foot. These are violent Islamo fascists, no other label fits them.

Over simplification and generalisation Sir.

You can't take away from fact that the whole problem started by ineptness of Omar Government. Of course Miwaiz and others are milking the situation. They were looking for an excuse and they got one. Omar remains a liability. Bachcha in the end is a bachcha.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 13 Sep 2010 21:42

12 killed, 70 injured in fresh violence

Jammu and Kashmir Government, meanwhile, banned an international news channel, Press TV, after it aired the report about alleged desecration of the holy book.
"The transmission of Press TV in Jammu and Kashmir has been banned with immediate effect," State Chief Secretary S S Kapur told reporters here.

He said the move was prompted after reports of the alleged sacrilege act. Also the channel was not registered with the Union Information and Broadcasting Ministry as required by law.

This is an Iranian state-funded channel.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 13 Sep 2010 22:07

Latest is that Amnesty is peddling that "soft focus" video of atrocities by Kashmiri police.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Sep 2010 22:09

Sri wrote:
Over simplification and generalisation Sir.

You can't take away from fact that the whole problem started by ineptness of Omar Government. Of course Miwaiz and others are milking the situation. They were looking for an excuse and they got one. Omar remains a liability. Bachcha in the end is a bachcha.

Even this omar faqer cannot be so inept.

There is a real possibility that the GOI is being setup by father and son.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 13 Sep 2010 22:13

Presence of PLA in PoK can have internal pressure points that can be used by even inside elements, often overlooked in strategy thread discussing such matters like in the PoK thread.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 13 Sep 2010 22:15

Also how much of the escalation we see in Kashmir is in anticipation of the CWG next month to showcase their 'azaadi' needs and oppression by GoI.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Sep 2010 22:16

Bade wrote:Also how much of the escalation we see in Kashmir is in anticipation of the CWG next month to showcase their 'azaadi' needs and oppression by GoI.

And Big O"s visit.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 13 Sep 2010 22:21

We'd better watch our backs. In light of the NWO discussions, this one makes perfect sense

http://indianmilitarynews.wordpress.com ... mir-beans/

Imagine that! Indian Army generals being lectured on human rights by their Israeli counterparts in Jammu and Kashmir

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Sep 2010 22:26

Prem wrote:
Bade wrote:Also how much of the escalation we see in Kashmir is in anticipation of the CWG next month to showcase their 'azaadi' needs and oppression by GoI.
And Big O"s visit.

There will be the usual massacre prior to his visit.

Pity.

anchal · Post by **anchal** » 13 Sep 2010 22:51

Any silver linining that I see out of these orgasimic cries of independence from wannabe Pakis is hardening of public opinion against the hooligans. At least looking at online platforms, Indians across the strata are united - of course you can discount usual Inhuman Rights cabals.

In the end, as MMS is what we have - let us hope the entire episode gives him some sense to come out of "economist" hangover. Rahul Baba is probably partying in outskirt Delhi farmhouse or sleeping on a cot in a Daleet household peacefully. MMS is definitely not able to sleep a la Mohammad Hanif episode