J & K news and discussion

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brihaspati
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby brihaspati » 29 Sep 2009 01:36

RayC wrote

I hope you are aware of the Siachen issue and demilitarisation suggested after the Cuba NAM.
Has it happened? If not, why not? There was MMS and his political will.
Politically mandated? BJP will accept? Let us not overreach!
Let us be frank. The world has changed. The Army is a part of that world. They would be rather aggrieved to believe that they were used as pawns to die in vain! Strong feelings I would say in a very PC way!

An example where the Army puts it foot down. Chidambaram wanted the Army to take on the Maoists. The Army put its foot down. Would not have happened in what you all revile, the BritIndian ethos! We have graduated!


I wrote
But are we assuming that they can protest and overrule politically mandated and legislatively supported decisions from the GOI? Now thats a minefield!


What MMS or PC asks the Army to do, without taking the legislatire into confidence, is technically speaking a "government" decision and indirectly a "legislative decision" because MMS and PC derive their power from the legislature. But suppose, the GOI uses its majority in the Parliament to support future proposals that include withdrawal of the Army/giving up territory/sharing power with TSP in which the Army's role is reduced - etc., and a formal decision/bill is passed in the Parliament. BJP does not have majority. It can only shout.

If it is being implied that the army can overrule and overturn such formal decisions by the Parliament then it means a formal challenge by the Army to the Legislature. This was what I meant as a "minefield". The consequencesa dn implications of such a challenge should be obvious.




French secularism is no example to superimpose on should I say, Vedic and Indic secularism. We are more tolerant, but also sharp! We did not compare the French secularism, you did!


I wrote
"Secularism" per-se is not the issue. We compared the French version and said that it would have been suicidal in that version of "secularism". Let us not try to generalize what passes for secularism in India as the only characterization of "secularism".


Nowhere did I state that the "French version" or example should be "superimposed". I simply stated, that in the French version certain actions would be suicidal, but not in the version that passes for secularism in India.

"Vedic secularism" is something I have not come across. The Vedas, especially the RigVeda does not seem to be aware of any religion or belief system other than its own. It is not aware of the Abrahamic faiths and does not give any arguments to tolerate a faith whose core injunctions include jihad, ghazwa, and "right hand possessions". If you are aware of such Vedic injunctions for tolerance of faith that naturally includes such stuff, I would be most interested to know.

It does pain that you find it incorrect for the Army brass to protest to the PM of incorrect military decisions for political brownies. Is the lives of the military that cheap and expendable for short time political gains?


Nowhere was this stated by me. If the reply is going to be - "You write in a complicated and obscure way. Because it is not clear I interpreted it the way I wanted. And therefore I took the liberty of reading your mind and constructed the statement you never stated but which I imputed to you." - then a request, no need to repeat it again in a post.
Last edited by brihaspati on 29 Sep 2009 01:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Mahendra » 29 Sep 2009 01:37


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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby ramana » 29 Sep 2009 02:13

Aditya G wrote:
Once the terrorists location has been determined, they are asked to come out. If they don't, then explosives are laid to demolish the building.


Dear Ray,

Why must explosives be 'laid' to destroy a house? Cant a 84 mm rocket be used?



You want to bring it down right and not blow it up?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Surya » 29 Sep 2009 04:24

unfortunately with wooden houses the 84 mm tends to go right through.

It is used at times

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RayC » 29 Sep 2009 05:43

Aditya G wrote:
Once the terrorists location has been determined, they are asked to come out. If they don't, then explosives are laid to demolish the building.


Dear Ray,

Why must explosives be 'laid' to destroy a house? Cant a 84 mm rocket be used?


Good question.

There is no doubt one has to understand the practical use of weapons to understand the effects that the said weapon can achieve.

A Direct firing weapon will only blow a hole. One could achieve the same by kicking open the door and then going in. Therefore, the bottom line is - going in.

Do we want to go in?

What do we want to do if not go in since that is not too safe a method?

We want to do a WTC to that house so that all terrorists inside perish, even those holed in in secret cavities of the building.

How do you do it?

With explosives.

Thus, explosives have to be laid.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 29 Sep 2009 05:56


hope there's enough security in the village. she is sure to be targeted.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RayC » 29 Sep 2009 06:40

Without going into the technical terms of the mode of democratic governance, suffice it to say that the politicians who rule our country are equipped to understand what they are doing. Therefore, it would hardly be in order to believe that they would commit political suicide, more so since they are not versed in the field of military, even if they are well read and are aware of military history and the like. They have learnt it well given that even a towering personality like JLN, who considered himself well versed in every department of governance, including military manoeuvres, met his Waterloo when he imperious ordered the Indian Army to throw the Chinese out, little realising that his OFB, under the orders of his worthy Defence Minister, were making coffee machines and not arms!!

1962 is a lesson for not only the politicians but also military men.

The Army cannot overrule the Govt, but the Indian bureaucracy has a powerful weapon at their disposal – the Whitehall system! One notesheet with a Part Case for the personal attention of the Raksha Mantri and the Pradhan Mantri giving out the misgiving of the Army along with the pros and cons, would give cold feet even to the most powerful!! And Chiefs cannot be dismissed so easily as would a peon be dismissed! An example – before the 1971 War, the Defence Ministry bureaucrats were dragging their feet over the buying of certain equipment. The notesheets went up and down. Sam Manekshaw in red ink (and I have seen the note) just wrote – you leave my army naked and marked it to Defence Minster! The equipment was bought! Therefore, to believe that the Ministers can get away with murder is another false notion that people have!

Therefore, the notesheet, call it shout, if you will, is an important instrument that can tone down the most imperious!

If the GOI, with its Parliamentary majority proposes withdrawal of the Army/giving up territory/ sharing power with TSP in which the Army's role is reduced, what makes one believe that there will be no ruckus in the media and the public? Who does the govt in power depend on? The public. Will any Opposition Party allow J&K to be bartered? Indeed, if it was feasible, then how come Siachen became a total non starter even though the PM wanted it to be ‘demilitarised’! It would have been a sell out to Musharraf, who tried to capture some parts of it when he was a Bde Cdr there and failed. Musharaff’s lifetime ambition would have been achieved without firing a shot and his shame wiped out! The PM also proposed reduction of troops in J&K. I am not aware of the figures, but could you or anyone else tell me that the figures have reduced?

There is theoretical power and there is practical power of the Govt.

As far as French secularism, you raised it. What has it to do with the Indian context? We are nowhere near that type of secularism nor have we shown any inclination towards it. And most of us are aware of French secularism, which anyway has drawn flak from many quarters.

Vedic secularism, for the want of a better expression, meant that India embraces all views and assimilates them and uses such an amalgam for its own good and destiny. Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion or so I learn from here. I presume that this tolerance to all views is but the sum and substance of the evolution in history to what is today, India!

Nowhere was this stated by me. If the reply is going to be - "You write in a complicated and obscure way. Because it is not clear I interpreted it the way I wanted. And therefore I took the liberty of reading your mind and constructed the statement you never stated but which I imputed to you." - then a request, no need to repeat it again in a post.


You have lost me!

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Pranav » 29 Sep 2009 06:45

Gagan wrote:Cross Posted
Seek peaceful solution to Kashmir issue: China tells India, Pak
BEIJING: China on Monday asked India and Pakistan to seek a solution to the Kashmir issue through peaceful and friendly consultations and offered to play a "constructive role" in resolving the "bilateral issue".

As a friendly country, China would also be happy to see progress in the peace process between India and Pakistan, said Hu Zhengyue, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs, in charge of the Asian region.

"Kashmir is an issue that has been longstanding left from history. This issue touches the bilateral relations between the relevant countries," he told a group of visiting foreign journalists here.

As China is a friendly neighbour of both countries, it hopes to see that the two sides "will seek a solution through peaceful and friendly consultations", Hu said when asked by a Pakistani journalist if China was prepared to play some role in the resolution of the issue.

While he stressed that Kashmir was a bilateral issue, he stopped short of ruling out the possibility of mediation.

"As a friend China will be happy to see such progress (in the peace process) and we will be happy if we can play a constructive role in the resolving of the issue (Kashmir), but after all it is a bilateral issue," he said.

He said that China hoped the peace process between India and Pakistan "will continue to go smoothly".
:roll:


This does open up some possibilities - China should be told that access to Indian market for Chinese goods depends on Pakistan agreeing to give up all claims to Indian side of LoC.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Gagan » 29 Sep 2009 07:21

That is not going to happen. International diplomacy doesn't work that way.
1. India screens what chinese goods enter India very carefully. Outside of India, cheap chinese goods have flooded the houses of people. India is not about to allow increased access to chinese goods into India anytime soon.

2. India will like to settle the border issue with china and use any leverage it can to that end. China supporting pakistan is a given, and it is only pakistan's behaviour that will temper chinese support to that country. The more stronger India grows, the more china will lean on Pakistan to irritate India. And the more Pakistan goes down in the dumps, the more it will irritate china by fanning islamic terrorism in china and constantly begging for more money, economic support and free defense goods.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby vera_k » 29 Sep 2009 09:29

UPA disastrous JK policy

At the recent Working Group on Centre State Relations on Jammu & Kashmir, Mr Habibullah proposed having mountain and plains area hill councils; a de facto division of Jammu into Muslim and Hindu areas. In April 2005, he had suggested Regional Assemblies for the State on communal lines.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Nihat » 29 Sep 2009 11:48

Rather than looking at more autonomy which is more of a separatist demand than a peoples demand , GoI would do much better to improve other developmental aspects of J&K. The first signs of which re the new Airport , this ought to be backed by speedy work on the Railway connecting Remote parts to rest of India , the proposal for 2 central universities of is also very important as it gives the natives a chance to pursue quality education without leaving the comfort of the home state. Many young school grads are terrfied of the thought of studying elsewhere in India for fear of being targeted as terror suspects later on.

Autonomy will take Kashmir further away from India than it already is and it may feed the separatists for an year or so after which they will be out with their "talks" demand again.

In the words of PC only , now that we have successfully managed to reduce violence and bloodshed in J&K , it's time to follow it up with rapid development.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby CRamS » 29 Sep 2009 19:35

Nihat:

The time for your proposal has not yet arrived. Remember, the amount of doe India has already poured in. Has that brought about any change in the stance of KMs? The APHC separatists derive their strenght from KMs. And the KMs are still determined, along with TSP that as long as this war of attrition continues, and the west is on their side, India will blink. Only when India kicks them sufficiently hard on their b@alls, and when they have no choice, then such magnanimous gestures by India will win hearts and minds.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Gagan » 29 Sep 2009 20:02

Time is the greatest healer.

India just has to bide the time, as the proverb says in hindi "Haathi nikal gaya hai, bus poonch hi baaki hai".

The real battle if for the hearts and minds of the people of kashmir, India's economic development and Pakistan's slide and forked tongue has sealed the fate of Pakistan's kashmir ambitions.

Successive Indian governments need to indulge in chai-biskoot and the armed forces have to keep up the good work at pest-e-shaheedizing the terrorists.

I have high hopes.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Atri » 29 Sep 2009 20:31


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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Manmeet » 29 Sep 2009 21:48

Gagan wrote:On Dashami, Jammu housewife kills jihadi with axe
JAMMU: As the country bid farewell to goddess Durga, the demon-slayer, on Dashami and witnessed the evil king Ravana being vanquished on Dussehra, a humble Muslim woman in a remote Jammu village slew a dreaded Lashkar terrorist single-handedly.

Exhibiting astonishing, raw courage, Rashida Begum took on the two terrorists who had barged into her home late Sunday night in Thana Mandi village in Rajouri district. The woman, in her early forties, grabbed an axe and swung it wildly, killing one of the armed terrorists and injuring the other. Seeing his partner meet a bloody end, the other terrorist fled in sheer dread.

A Rajouri-based police officer said the two terrorists of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Pakistan-based group that carried out the 26/11 Mumbai attacks, had entered Noor Ahmad's home around 9pm with the intention of holding the family hostage.
...


According to BBC she is only 18 years of age.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/hindi/india/2009/09/090929_rukhsana_story_mb.shtml
She should be recommended for President's medal and be given free education in a good institution either in Jammu or Delhi..... :)

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby shravan » 29 Sep 2009 23:40


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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby ManuJ » 30 Sep 2009 01:46

RayC wrote:....
There is theoretical power and there is practical power of the Govt.

Good explanation of how the Indian system really works. Thanks!

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby brihaspati » 30 Sep 2009 03:59

RayC wrote
The Army cannot overrule the Govt, but the Indian bureaucracy has a powerful weapon at their disposal – the Whitehall system! One notesheet with a Part Case for the personal attention of the Raksha Mantri and the Pradhan Mantri giving out the misgiving of the Army along with the pros and cons, would give cold feet even to the most powerful!! And Chiefs cannot be dismissed so easily as would a peon be dismissed! An example – before the 1971 War, the Defence Ministry bureaucrats were dragging their feet over the buying of certain equipment. The notesheets went up and down. Sam Manekshaw in red ink (and I have seen the note) just wrote – you leave my army naked and marked it to Defence Minster! The equipment was bought! Therefore, to believe that the Ministers can get away with murder is another false notion that people have!

Therefore, the notesheet, call it shout, if you will, is an important instrument that can tone down the most imperious!


The "shout" in my post was clearly attributed to political parties in opposition in the Parliament, in this case in the context of BJP.

I am not sure that we are not mixing and comparing situations that are not miscible or comparable. It is possible as you say, for the Army showing its dissatisfaction to the way the military is put in trouble in the discharge of its duty, and shove it right into the face of senior cabinet ministers who are officially connected in capacity with defence. But can you give me any outline of a possible military reason that the COS can send as a note to the GOI that argues against the political decision to devolve greater power to a semi-independent J&K? If that political decision is made as a part of an international agreement mediated by current "global" powers, who also get involved directly or indirectly as "guarantors" of "good behaviour" from Jihadis in the newly independent state? Especially "good behaviour" as long as India "behaves"?

I am trying to draw attention to the fact that international pressures to "soft" governments can make overruling such political decisions a most difficult task for the army. At some stage, the army will have to cross a dangerously thin line, if it wants to continue to oppose such political decisions.

The "babus" in the admin side can help the army by facilitating such note-pushing, or they may oppose and sabotage. But the top "eyes and ears" for whom the note is meant, could find no way of resisting the pressures that have built up around from both internal and external factors. I am sure we have not forgotten that the most common excuses for the Partition given by the GOI and its leaders, was that "it was unavoidable" - "the situation was such that we could not do anything else but accept".

If the GOI, with its Parliamentary majority proposes withdrawal of the Army/giving up territory/ sharing power with TSP in which the Army's role is reduced, what makes one believe that there will be no ruckus in the media and the public? Who does the govt in power depend on? The public. Will any Opposition Party allow J&K to be bartered? Indeed, if it was feasible, then how come Siachen became a total non starter even though the PM wanted it to be ‘demilitarised’! It would have been a sell out to Musharraf, who tried to capture some parts of it when he was a Bde Cdr there and failed. Musharaff’s lifetime ambition would have been achieved without firing a shot and his shame wiped out! The PM also proposed reduction of troops in J&K. I am not aware of the figures, but could you or anyone else tell me that the figures have reduced?

There is theoretical power and there is practical power of the Govt.


Demilitarizing was a proposal that was not part of a comprehensive autonomy package that gave semi-independent status to a new entity of "J&K". It was a one-way offer and gesture that was given perhaps out of romanticism or hard calculation - we have no reasons to know for sure. If however an entirely comprehensive "semi-independence" package is proposed, where the IA has limited responsibility to defend the new "Indian borders" only, with a new security force raised locally and trained under joint as well as international supervision to guard the "Kashmir" borders - IA can protest. But will it be able to carry it in the face of such coordinated national and international pressure?

As far as French secularism, you raised it. What has it to do with the Indian context? We are nowhere near that type of secularism nor have we shown any inclination towards it. And most of us are aware of French secularism, which anyway has drawn flak from many quarters.


I would have much preferred the French version of equal intolerance, and the assertion of the rights of the state over claims of suprahuman authority spoken through "messengers" than tolerance for anything and everything because otherwise it might hurt sentiments of determined minorities who can then hold the entire society to ransom. Drawing flak from appropriate quarters might actually establish its merit.


Vedic secularism, for the want of a better expression, meant that India embraces all views and assimilates them and uses such an amalgam for its own good and destiny. Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion or so I learn from here. I presume that this tolerance to all views is but the sum and substance of the evolution in history to what is today, India!


The word India does not occur in the Vedas. Hinduism is neither a "religion" in the sense the word is used from the Abrahamic theology, nor is it just a "way of life". A "way of life" is whatever is practised by living human beings. By that token the Abrahamic is even more a "way of life", for they take great pains to ensure that only certain "ways of life" are practised forever into time. Do the Vedas go into a great detail as to how exactly people should live in their day to day life? Not really. We get a glimpse of certain "ways of life" but they are not claimed to be imposable forever into the future.

More importantly, tolerance of all possible views cannot be deduced from the "Vedas". As far as my reading goes, formal injunctions of "enjoying captured women even if they are married", violent jihad or ghazwa to loot and murder or rape, declaration of a never-ending struggle to fight militarily until all humanity submits to the theology, do not occur in the Vedas. Because such injunctions do not occur in the Vedas, does it mean that the Vedas teach us to tolerate "religions" that claim such injunctions as being divine revelation and therefore to be imposed on all humanity? Vedas, and the Upanishads hold many viewpoints that contradict the basic biological greed and violence expressed in the core texts of the earliest and the latest of the Abrahamic.

If the Indic viewpoint is to be tolerant of all possible viewpoints, should it then also tolerate the logic of Hitler and Himmler for extermination of "Jews" and what others they considered "non-human"? If the Indic viewpoint is so tolerant, then why cannot it tolerate the views of those who destroyed the so-called Babri mosque? Or those derided for their "Hindutva"? Surely tolerance of all viewpoints includes them? Or is it a selective "tolerance"? In that case can it be truly all-encompassing?

Tolerance has its limits. And this claim of "tolerance for everything and anything" has been shoved down the "Indic" mouth to emasculate any protests that can be problematic for the Abrahamic or colonial and western powers. It is not deducible from the core texts of Bharatyia philosophy. The Geeta itself is a very loud proponent of "intolerance" for what it considers "adharma", and sweeps away any hesitation on consideration of sympathies for the "adharmic", even "blood-relation".

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RayC » 30 Sep 2009 10:14

brihaspati


I am aware that you had alluded to indicate the impotence of the Opposition as merely restricted to a ‘shout’ to GOI decision making with Parliamentary consensus since the Coalition running the GOI would have the majority. However, for emotive issues like any decision to barter J&K, the media, Opposition et al are capable of galvanising the nation from a ‘shout’ to a ‘roar’ reaching a deafening crescendo! Weapon deals, which are off the common man’s radar, became a ‘national’ issue (Bofors) that even haunts today, even after so many years have lapsed, all because of the Opposition and the media clamour.

The hapless Shivaji Patil in spite of high level patronage was hounded out of office finally because of Opposition and media clamour. Mayawati, her elephants and her setting herself in marble has been stopped in the tracks because of the Opposition and media decibel levels, notwithstanding her using the best ploy in town of ‘caste’ discrimination! Less serious issues like poor Krishna and Tharoor were hunted out of the hotel because of a prying journalist! And to imagine a Minister, Tharoor, being admonished by Congress flunkeys! Therefore, the Opposition’s ‘shout’ along with the media blitz, can change the mood, even within the governing party itself!! Compare these minor issues that had cataclysmic effect on the high and mighty and the idea of bartering J&K on a ‘peace at all cost’ decision which has catastrophic effect on national and strategic well being of the Nation!!

I used 'shout' in context with the Army since you ascribe the same impotence to the Army.

If J&K can be semi independent (whatever that means), then there will be uproar for similar treatment in Nagaland, Manipur and elsewhere etc. Where will it leave the GOI?

The Army cannot refuse to implement the decision of the Govt. Yet, to believe that it will not indicate the pros and cons of a decision on file, would be not be a truism. I cannot indicate, even as a ‘if’ scenario on what the Army could put on file if the GOI agreed to ‘semi independent’ J&K because the parameters have not been stated by you as to what is ‘semi independent’. The idea is too nebulously presented. However, if ‘semi independent’ means withdrawal and allow leeway to the Pakistani Army to take over areas which cannot be recovered, if the need arises, then surely the Army will spell out the pros and cons to assist the GOI. Siachen Glacier is a case in point, where a political decision was taken that the Defence Secretaries of both the countries would meet and organise demilitarisation. It fizzled out. I am sure the GOI did not have a change of heart on its own in the period of transit from Cuba to India! As I have mentioned earlier, politicians as a class are not totally beyond seeing reason. They do have the interest of the Nation in mind and if experts present the reality, they grasp it and take necessary decisions that are politically prudent and at the same time not bartering away the Nation’s interest!

No international agreement guaranteeing borders have ever worked out and therefore one would be sceptical, even if the current global powers should be the guarantors!

The very statement of yours – “If that political decision is made as a part of an international agreement mediated by current "global" powers, who also get involved directly or indirectly as "guarantors" of "good behaviour" from Jihadis in the newly independent state? Especially "good behaviour" as long as India "behaves"? ’’ - is the recipe for a non starter.

First of all, when the current global powers have been unable to control jihadis against themselves and their troops, what guarantee can they give India? Secondly, ‘as long as India behaves’ – ambiguous; in other words, they will stand in judgement of what is ‘behaviour’! Thus, the cat will jump as per their decision and that will be another leverage to bring India to vassalage!

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Airavat » 30 Sep 2009 10:51

Several industrial houses of Mumbai have agreed to make investments worth Rs 8500 crore in Jammu and Kashmir to give a substantial boost to economic activities and general employment opportunities in the State. A number of top industrialists met Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, Omar Abdullah here today and committed to invest Rs 8500 crore in the sectors of power, road connectivity, tourism, heavy engineering, agro industries and financial services etc.

Managing Director, Taj Hotel, Krishan Kumar promised that Taj Hotel will set up a hotel management Institute while, a software centre of Tata Consultancy services to develop projects for national and international markets, will also be established in the State.

Daily Excelsior

Let's hope there is equitable treatment for Jammu and Kashmir regions in deciding where these are located; we don't want a repeat of the fracas over the Central University, in the last few months, to be repeated.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Sanku » 30 Sep 2009 13:09

RayC wrote:brihaspati
GoI and its working...


RayC, I have a small clarification here, what Brihspati is alluding to is not a straight play, look at it this way, some folks at the very top of GoI are beholden to powers outside India (for a variety of reasons)

They then take a predecided agenda and then decide to force it down the GoI structure (both political and civil-military) -- what are the real checks and balances offered by the system in this scenario?

If you get right down to it -- its only the parlimentary majority -- and it can always be brought for the isntance needed.

Case in point is nuclear deal, a clearly unpopular deal which was not liked and understood by the majority was pushed though by masquerading it under a no confidence motion on the govt and not a discussion on the deal, the govt was saved by purchasing Amar Singh, later Amar Singh regretted having sold out but it was too late the damage was done.

Combine the above in the casual way Nehru gave away parts of J&K and also gave up chances to link up with Nepal.

Do I believe that the system is weak to subversion at very top and let it get away with it -- yes.

Will GoI resist -- yes -- a la Santhanan now.

Will it do any good? In cases which are really important -- no -- the structure can resist minor issues (Siachen and clauses in 123) but not a directed effort forced down its throat.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RayC » 30 Sep 2009 14:06

Sanku,

Brihaspati has raised pertinent point which any concerned citizen would raise and should raise. I am not contesting that at all. And we can thank our stars that we have people who can raise such questions rather than being the ji huzoor types!

The nuclear deal is too specialised for the common man and the veritable storm that has been recently raised over the success/failure of the last Pokhran test indicates that those who understand nuclear science are equally confused. That leaves our Nation gripped with greater confusion!

But that is not so with land. Every Indian who owns land or a house understands the value of land and a house. It is easier to relate. My relations want me to sell my bungalow to a promoter and live in a flat and also have a nest in the bank to bank on! No chance. I will not lose my liberty to have dogs and a lawn with a house with coconut, guava and other trees and a garden to have the squabble of urban slumming! Likewise, why should India ‘urban slum’ with Pakistan over J&K and give away their much vaunted ideology of secularism?

The premise here is that Indian politicians are fools and they can be bought to sell the Nation and its ideal. While I have no love lost for them, I don’t think they are such a dung heap! They do care for their Nation, more so, when it externally affects them. They are political animals. They have to flaunt patriotism on their sleeve or they are dead meat! The Indian voter maybe very stupid, but we are aware of our patriotism to our country! Anyone who sells us down this drain will never be forgiven. Nehru wasn’t! Who could be a greater leader than him? Even Gandhi, the Father of the Nation was roundly criticised for wanting to give Pakistan more money etc! Holy cows they maybe, but when the nation’s pride is concerned they will tumble down. Sceptre and Crown will tumble down!

Amar Singh is a weather coc.k!




.

jamwal
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby jamwal » 30 Sep 2009 14:13

Airavat wrote:Several industrial houses of Mumbai have agreed to make investments worth Rs 8500 crore in Jammu and Kashmir to give a substantial boost to economic activities and general employment opportunities in the State. A number of top industrialists met Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, Omar Abdullah here today and committed to invest Rs 8500 crore in the sectors of power, road connectivity, tourism, heavy engineering, agro industries and financial services etc.

Managing Director, Taj Hotel, Krishan Kumar promised that Taj Hotel will set up a hotel management Institute while, a software centre of Tata Consultancy services to develop projects for national and international markets, will also be established in the State.

Daily Excelsior

Let's hope there is equitable treatment for Jammu and Kashmir regions in deciding where these are located; we don't want a repeat of the fracas over the Central University, in the last few months, to be repeated.


Should I be happy ? :roll:

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RayC » 30 Sep 2009 14:39

Should I be happy ? :roll:


Should you be?

Remember the HMT, hops, sericulture projects?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby brihaspati » 30 Sep 2009 20:05

RayC,
in a crisis for the nation, you and I will probably take the very same position. (In spite of our fights over a host of terms like "hindutva") And I would not find it difficult at all to accept and act according to your words what concerns your area of expertise. But I will be able to do so and act on it, because I will have almost no "weaknesses" that externals can exploit. Not because I am perfect, but because I have not carried on in politics and been forced to compromise and "be compromised" to survive. There are things within the political party system in India that forces you to get involved and be "stamped" with elemnts that can be used on you for "blackmail".

I think you understand what I mean and what I cannot say more on!

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby jamwal » 01 Oct 2009 00:22

Sericulture is a small cottage industry.
HMT plant is in Srinagar and was not manufacturing anything, what i heard of it last.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RayC » 01 Oct 2009 01:58

jamwal wrote:Sericulture is a small cottage industry.
HMT plant is in Srinagar and was not manufacturing anything, what i heard of it last.



On the Srinagar Baramullah road, there is a huge Sericulture farm.

The hops farm has too closed down.

In fact, apart from traditional industry nothing seems to take off.

HMT factory near Sarifabad was burnt down by the terrorists!

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Pranav » 01 Oct 2009 07:04

3 CRPF men killed in Sopore market, while shopping: http://www.dailypioneer.com/205857/Terr ... opore.html

Was this a violation of normal operating procedures by the CRPF?

IMHO, central security personnel should mostly be in plain clothes as far as possible and blend in with the population.

Also, no explanation yet from the army regarding the Maj Suri incident, why was permission to destroy the house refused?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Dilbu » 01 Oct 2009 19:18

Self-rule can neutralise partition fallout : PDP
Srinagar, Oct 1 (PTI) Claiming that Jammu and Kashmir had suffered on various fronts in the wake of partition, PDP Patron Mufti Mohammad Sayeed today said self-rule could, to a large extent, neutralize its negative fallout.

"While it would effectively remove the sense of siege that gripped the state post 1947, it would also lead to a virtual reunion of the two sides seperated by LoC", Mufti said addressing a one-day workshop on the self-rule formula at the party headquarters here today.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby CRamS » 01 Oct 2009 19:40

What is this self rule BS Mufti Saab? Wanting India out so USA/TSP can come riding their white horses in downtown Srinagar? Some 'freedom' seeking this is.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Oct 2009 22:03

So the post Shopian deaths the riots etc were due to major mis-perception. and complete botch up of post mortems and law and order situation. Why?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby sum » 01 Oct 2009 22:05

ramana wrote:So the post Shopian deaths the riots etc were due to major mis-perception. and complete botch up of post mortems and law and order situation. Why?

IIRC, it was not "mis-perception" but successful propaganda effort by the ISI J&K desk...

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Aditya G » 02 Oct 2009 12:13

We want to do a WTC to that house so that all terrorists inside perish, even those holed in in secret cavities of the building.

How do you do it?

With explosives.

Thus, explosives have to be laid.


I recall reading on India'a acquistion of Shipon rockets from Israel was precisely its ability to destroy a building. I suppose Carl Gustaf rockets are simply too powerful! Wonder how Shipon has fared in the field?

Pranav wrote:Hawk Eye
Who killed Major Suri?
http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... ntid=63655

September 25, 2009

.....

Infantry soldiers and officers are not specialists in clearing houses. National Security Guard (NSG) commandoes receive specialized training for it. Lobbing stun grenades, using tear gas shells, mirrors to look and using specialized moves to enter as a team. This is a task best left to them - or raise special units to do it in J&K. Statistics show house, hut and dhok (kachcha structures in mountains) clearance is one of the biggest reasons of casualty of troops in J&K.


Dear Ray,

I am also curious on this. As you said IA frontline troops have been doing this for decades, but can there be scope for a even more specialised unit to storm the house - once posivitely identified, while rest of the group only establishes cordon and prevents escape of the terrorist.

NSG is a large, specialised and underutilised agency who is supposed to this job. Can they be utilised better by posting NSG teams in J&K at least in urban centres from where they can be called out for such exigencies by the regular units?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RayC » 02 Oct 2009 13:31

Aditya G wrote:
I recall reading on India'a acquistion of Shipon rockets from Israel was precisely its ability to destroy a building. I suppose Carl Gustaf rockets are simply too powerful! Wonder how Shipon has fared in the field?


First of all, it is an incorrect premise that the troops in the CI grid are not trained to wage COIN and only the SF or NSG are equipped to do so, as stated by someone.

If the infantry troops were not so capable to do so, then why are they there and doing so?

With all due regards to those who get enamoured by labels to ascribe supermen qualities to labels that excite, I might add that indeed they have certain skills that are not common and they have weapons that others do not have, but they are as good or bad as any others!

I might add that a dhobi, who would have been ignored as a soldier, also won a VrC and many a soldier has not won one!! Therefore, one cannot stereotype to fulfil one's idea of who can do what.

I am not privy to the facts of the case of Major Suri. However, I would be surprised if he was not given a free hand to do what he thought was best. Media has a tendency to sensationalise. I don't believe them. Take the Aroshi murder case. Till today, it has not been solved, but the parents are in the doghouse because of the media sensationalist reportage ascribing all sorts of blame and IIRC to the parents also!!

If it is proved that there was micromanagement, as reported by the media, especially Gaurav Sawant, in the affair, then it is a sad commentary.

Why is Sawant silent now? The usual TV comment after each show is 'we will be following it closely'. What happened? No one is following closely at all!

The anti-fortification/anti-personnel rocket is designed to penetrate walls, and explode inside building for maximum effect.

So would it be OK that the rocket penetrates and explodes and no one is there to be killed.

Would not bringing down the house like WTC better?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby SSridhar » 02 Oct 2009 15:32

J&K Court sentences terrorist to death
Should be executed swiftly, but unfortunately there are 28 others waiting before him on Mercy Petition, which this terrorist will also surely send after delaying further with appeals to High Court & Supreme Court. I really do not know why the Government should take even longer time than the length of trials themselves in deciding mercy petition.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby Sanku » 02 Oct 2009 16:32

RayC wrote:The Indian voter maybe very stupid, but we are aware of our patriotism to our country! Anyone who sells us down this drain will never be forgiven. Nehru wasn’t!



True but the damage was done nevertheless before people realized that. And for all his fault Nehru was some what honest. What if the people in charge who come to stage now will be reimbursed by some one else?

In any case a lot of them have their progeny outside for some time?

Whats their stake in India if they can be brought a farm in US?

Musharraf, a very patriotic Pakistani (for all his faults) much more than any Indian leader, could be brought a farm and shipped out after he did his bit to algin the interests of Pakistan with those of US?

Why not here?

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby sum » 02 Oct 2009 17:30

NSG is a large, specialised and underutilised agency who is supposed to this job. Can they be utilised better by posting NSG teams in J&K at least in urban centres from where they can be called out for such exigencies by the regular units?

IIRC, this already is happening from many years...

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby asprinzl » 02 Oct 2009 21:53



Every news editor and the others who allowed this brave girl's picture to be made public should be cooked in boiling oil alive. Idiots all of them. Now that her face is public every jihadiot and jihadiot wannabes would be gunning for her life. How could even the govt allow this stupidity?
Avram.

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby RayC » 02 Oct 2009 22:20

asprinzl wrote:


Every news editor and the others who allowed this brave girl's picture to be made public should be cooked in boiling oil alive. Idiots all of them. Now that her face is public every jihadiot and jihadiot wannabes would be gunning for her life. How could even the govt allow this stupidity?
Avram.


The girl and the family would in any case be known to the jihadis.

I agree that the identity should have been kept under cover and it could have been airbrushed even if it had to be used by the TV. But then, there is no dearth of idiots all around!

The saving grace is the statement that they are being relocated. However, again a faux pax. The location has been spelt out. Hopefully, that was a red herring!!

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Re: J & K news and discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Oct 2009 05:24

OIC appoints special envoy on Kashmir

United Nations: The Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC), a grouping of 57 Islamic countries, has appointed a special envoy on Jammu and Kashmir, a move seen as part of Pakistan’s efforts to internationalise the issue.

The OIC made the announcement after a meeting of its Contact Group on Kashmir at the United Nations headquarters.

The appointment of Abdullah Bin Adbul Rahman Al Bakr, a Saudi national, as the special OIC envoy on Jammu and Kashmir was welcomed by Hurriyat chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, who also held a series of meetings with the leaders of the Muslim countries raising the issue of alleged violations of human rights in Kashmir.

The Mirwaiz said the appointment would help resolve the Kashmir issue according to the “aspirations” of the Kashmiri people.

The Contact Group on Kashmir was addressed by Foreign Ministers of Pakistan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Niger.

The Mirwaiz, Pakistan occupied Kashmir Prime Minister Sardar Yaqoob and Ghulam Nabi Fai, head of the Washington-based separatist Kashmir American Council, also addressed the meeting. — PTI


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