J & K news and discussion

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nkumar
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby nkumar » 01 Sep 2008 09:54

armenon wrote:
As solution formula, Soz is also understood to have favoured inclusion in the Amarnath Shrine Board of a member of the Muslim (Malik) family that had discovered the holy cave shrine about 160 years ago.

This, he feels, would preserve the secular credentials of the Amarnath pilgrimage.

Please enlighten us poor souls about how the hindu piligrimage was a "secular" one before Mr Soz ? :roll:

Soz uvacha


How about including some Hindus (whose paid-taxes are used for Haj subsidies) in the 'Haj Commitees' to make them "secular"?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rupesh » 01 Sep 2008 16:01

Nice article from Jerry Rao

India won’t, can’t give up
Jaithirth RaoPosted online: Monday, September 01, 2008 at 2340 hrs
lKashmir is not special. This multi-lingual, multi-ethnic, multi-religious country is



The text of a speech the prime minister should give on Jammu and Kashmir, addressing the people of the state.

My sisters and brothers from the state of Jammu and Kashmir:

I speak to you today with the utmost candour and simplicity. Being candid implies being honest in an emphatic, even brutal manner. People use complicated expressions when they want to obfuscate. I intend to leave no opportunity for anyone to interpret or misinterpret my words as the case may be.

I want to make the following seven points:

1. India is not going to give up Kashmir. If you have been hearing that several so-called intellectuals have advocated this, then please do not over-estimate their influence. They can be concerned about abstractions like the arithmetic or the algebra of justice. That is irrelevant and inconsequential. The Republic of India is not going to confer Azadi on part or all of Kashmir. Nor are we going to let you join Pakistan :mrgreen: . Please do not be misled by anyone who tells you anything to the contrary.

2. If the current unrest continues in the state, many people, mostly young people will be affected by violence. That is avoidable. Because there is not a hope in hell that all of this violence will persuade any government in India to let you secede. :D

3. People may be misleading you that if you indulge in public slogan-mongering, throwing stones or more lethal objects at the police in front of TV cameras of the international media, the chances of my government or any other government operating in its place agreeing to let you secede is high. They are dead wrong. We have violence and public demonstrations in dozens of places in our country every day. To some extent, we have become immune and these acts have limited impact.

4. Some may have given you the impression that Kashmir is a unique case on account of its history, geography or religious make-up. Please do not believe them. As far as the government of India is concerned, all secessionist movements, Naga or Ahom or Kashmiri, will meet the same response. They cannot be allowed to succeed. The fact that we frequently have “talks” with secessionists or quasi-secessionists should not lead you to infer that there is any weakness on the government’s part as far as fundamental issues are concerned. The “talks” are part of a strategy of combining firmness with dialogue in order to get people and their leaders to give UP their secessionist demands. By no stretch of imagination should this create the impression that we will give IN to these demands.

5. Our position is not based on issues that seem of great importance to you — whether non-Kashmiris can buy land in Kashmir or whether some shrine is run this way or that. Such issues are not the most important for us, even though out of democratic respect for your feelings we are willing to talk about them. The plain and simple fact is that

India is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-lingual country. We are not a nation-state based on one race, language or church. In this we resemble the empires of old. Consider the Austro-Hungarian Empire where Czechs from Bohemia, Jews from Vienna, Magyars from Hungary and German-speaking Catholics from the Tyrol all lived together peacefully and, more importantly, talented individuals from all of these groups were able to blossom, thrive and prosper. That is the

Indian model with the added accoutrements of a democratic republic. We know what happens when great empires break up. For decades after that, the ensuing violence and anarchy turn the lives of millions of ordinary individuals and families into a living hell. In recent times as the Soviet Union and

Yugoslavia have broken up we have again witnessed this tragic phenomenon. If India were to agree to one or other constituent part seceding, let me assure you that the likely ensuing violence will make the violence in the former Soviet Union or Yugoslavia look like a mild tea party. No government in India, of India will countenance this. No prime minister will put himself in a position where history will hold that he or she was responsible for such a monumental tragedy.

6. You may also ask whether we have the stomach to put up with mounting casualties in the police and the army. My answer is an unequivocal “yes”. We are a nation of 1.2 billion people. We don’t want to sacrifice young men and women. But we are perfectly willing to do so to preserve our way of life. We recollect with awe that many continents away, a century and a half ago, the kindly President Lincoln had sinews of steel when faced with longer and longer casualty lists of the cream of American youth. But he prevented secession. He preserved the union. That is precisely what we will do. The misplaced secessionist attempts of some Naga leaders pre-date similar attempts by some of your leaders. We have not yielded. In the ’80s, my home state of the Punjab was troubled greatly by foolish insurrectionists. That too has passed. We are confident that the Indian state will prevail.

7. Let me close by appealing to each of you as individuals. My appeal is particularly directed to young people. Instead of spending time in agitations, demonstrations, attacking the police, etc I suggest that you learn skills such as computer programming, financial analysis and so on. Seek meaningful jobs anywhere in the vast integrated and fast-growing Indian marketplace. Get ahead in life as individuals. Fulfil your individual dreams. If you are stuck to a small state and do not see a large country and indeed the world as your canvas you as an individual will be the loser. The collective identity of being Kashmiri or Moslem or a Hindoo or a Buddhist is a seductive trap. You are individuals and you deserve a better life than screaming unrealistic and impossible slogans.

The writer divides his time between Mumbai, Lonavla and Bangalore jerry.rao@expressinda.com

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/355662._.html

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 01 Sep 2008 19:42

Secular commie Noorani's opinion on Amarnath settlement
He is really an inverse watermelon, red on outside, green on inside

http://www.kashmirwatch.com/showheadlin ... value0news

Jammu Agreement worse than May cabinet order: Noorani



Srinagar, September 1: Legal luminary A. G. Noorani's opinion about the agreement reached between Jammu and Kashmir Government and Amarnath Sangarsh Samiti of Jammu in response to a query.

1. The order is worst than the Cabinet order issued in May. That order was issued by a Cabinet, which at least had a representative character with members both from Kashmir as well as Jammu.

2. The latest order was made by the Governor who is a civil servant. He has only interacted with Jammu parties although the land is in Kashmir and affects people there.

3. There is no reference to Kashmir in this agreement.

4. Moreover, the Cabinet order of May was explicit on return of land after the yatra period. There is no mention of return of land in this agreement.

5. The Cabinet order also didn't give any exclusive rights. Even during the period of yatra one was allowed to trespass or go through the land and use for grazing or other purposes without affecting the pilgrimage.

6. Now the land will be shut for anybody for the period of yatra. It violates Article 19 (d) of Indian Constitution which gives right to move freely throughout the territory of India.

7. 'The phrase used in the Section C of the Agreement that aforesaid land shall be used according to the Board's requirements, from time to time, is most confusing.

8. While not mentioning the period of yatra, the phrase "time to time" makes one believe the land can be used anytime. This only vindicates former chief executive of the Board Arun Kumar, asserting that land will not be returned.

9. The agreement further talks about compensation to agitators in Jammu. Here also it has overlooked Kashmir. It seems they are being rewarded for agitation. No mention of any punishment for those who engaged in blockades.

10. Also in the first Cabinet order ecological concerns had been taken care off and there was an amount of punishment also mentioned in case of tampering with the ecology and environment. It has been deleted all the way. Section C clause (IX) of the agreement asks the Board to undertake "measures relating to soil conservation, land protection and preservation of ecology." But, does not specify the punishment or penalty in case of violation.

11. Section 2 of Jammu and Kashmir Forest Conservation Act 1997 clearly stipulates that for any diversion of forest land a resolution has to be adopted at the council of ministers after recommendation from forest advisory committee. Though powers of the state are vested with Governor in Jammu and Kashmir, but the Act is so clear about the power of Council of Minister in this case that it is necessary to follow the process. National Forest (Conservation) Act of 1980 also calls for advice from a committee to grant an approval under Section 2. It also stipulates punishment for those violating Section 2 of the Act.

12. Council of Ministers also cannot divert the forest land arbitrarily. They have to refer to Supreme Court judgements.

[Rising Kashmir]

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Neshant » 02 Sep 2008 10:29

expect terrorism in the days ahead

-------------

Ultras infiltrate into Indian territory near Jammu
Tuesday August 26 2008 11:07 IST
PTI

Get a 30% discount on Calls to India.

JAMMU: Security forces have launched a massive operation to track down a group of armed militants who they claim infiltrated into the Indian territory here from across the border under the garb of firing from the Pakistani side early this morning. "A group of three to four militants have infiltrated into the state through Kanachak border after cutting the fence and under the cover of firing from Pakistan side around 0145 hours.

"A massive operation is on to track down the militants in as BSF, army and police have cordoned off the entire belt and tracker dogs have been pressed into operation," Deputy Inspector General, BSF, S Sagwan told PTI.

He alleged that under the cover of firing, "Pakistan pushed in militants into this side of the border", adding that firing exchanges continued for over an hour till 0145 hours.

Giving details, the DIG said a group of 20 to 30 unidentified ultras took position on positions close to the International Border (IB) on Pakistan side and opened indiscriminate firing on border patrol parties in Kanachak border area of Jammu district around 12.30 AM.

The BSF troops guarding the borderline retaliated, he said adding there was no casualty on this side in the firing.

Asked whether Pakistan troops were involved in the firing, he said that their involvement cannot be ruled out and they are responsible for the security for the entire belt.

BSF has swung into action and launched a massive cordon and search operation in Kanachak border belt and adjoining areas just 15 kms from the Jammu city.

ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 02 Sep 2008 19:54

Op-Ed in Pioneer, 2 Sept., 2008

Call the bluff of Kashmiriyat
Sandhya Jain

Ignited Hindu men, women and children, who sustained a 61-day agitation for the restoration of land allotted to create temporary facilities for pilgrims to Sri Amarnath shrine, and the very thought of a blockade-that-never-was had Jammu & Kashmir's majority population in visible sweat. Fear showed in the eyes and voices of 'ordinary' traders fearing for the remuneration from their annual fruit harvest, and the hysterical pitch of politicians trying to consolidate votes in anticipation of an Assembly election unlikely to be held in the near future, hardly improved matters.

For Muslims, that is. Hindus from neighbouring States rushed to support the cause of the pilgrims; three persons sacrificed their lives to the cause, even as the so-called 'popular' Kashmiri leaders agitated against the land transfer from the safety of Delhi's television studios. The Centre should call their bluff by telling them to ask their own benign community to take care of their security needs; this will introduce a dose of realism into the public discourse.

The unexpected murder of Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati on Janmashtami in Orissa brought Hindu rage to the fore in several districts of the State, and showed effete politicians everywhere that Hindus can no longer be expected to remain mute in the face of grim provocation. And if Jammu was no small irritant to the hitherto patient Hindu community, then Kandhmal was pure aggravation. The subsequent trade union style bandh by Christian organisations in Delhi, the unwarranted interference of the Vatican and the Italian Government, only underscored the organised nature of Christian offensive against Hindu dharma. For let there no be misunderstanding -- a monotheistic religion can expand only by annihilating native faiths everywhere.

In these circumstances, the Centre would do well to allot the 99 acres of forest land at Baltal to Hindu pilgrims in perpetuity, and not only for two months during the annual yatra. The land must be given free, not leased at the exorbitant Rs 2.5 crore initially mooted, not because Hindus are unwilling to pay, but because Kashmir is the abode of Rishi Kashyap, protector of gods and people, and Shiv, the special god of the Himalayan range.

Sri Amarnath Shrine Board can be asked to erect permanent pilgrim facilities at the site, to be used when pilgrims come. For the rest of the year, the place is uninhabitable, but there is little sense in making huge investments every year. More pertinently, while the yatra may be seasonal, Hindus are not a nomadic (banjara) community whose tents and poles will be uprooted every season.

As for the Muslim-dominated Valley, it is time to call the bluff of Kashmiriyat and end the mindless appeasement. If a minimal demand for pilgrim facilities can trigger 'passions' in the Valley, this means Kashmiriyat was only the total banishment of Hindu culture from the public arena. There was never a composite culture -- the so-called Sufi Nund Rishi was always backed by Muslim political power, and Hindus sought reconciliation at whatever price it could be achieved. That era of 'apat-dharma' (dharma in times of distress) is now being brought to a close by self-motivated men and women in vast swathes of the nation.

Threats of a backlash in the Valley must be treated with the contempt they deserve. The shameless advocacy of separatism by some rootless writers has not cut any ice anywhere. If at all, the sight of Jinnah's posters and the Pakistani flag being waved with impunity by the azadi-walas, while suffering Hindus raised the Tiranga in Jammu, has inflamed Hindu sentiment nation-wide. Reports of the Indian Army refusing to confront Tricolour-waving crowds in Jammu suggest deep unhappiness with the way politicians have conducted themselves on the issue.

The mysterious murder of Sheikh Abdul Aziz of the All-Party Hurriyat Conference while leading a mob towards Muzaffarabad in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir suggests all is not well in the separatist camp and that it is time to stand firm. National Security Adviser MK Narayanan has said the death was not caused by police firing (Aziz was shot in the back), and is possibly due to rivalries in the separatist camp.

Muslim politicians, including Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Omar Abdullah, Sajjad Lone and Mehbooba Mufti, are vying for the status of the 'most fundamentalist' leader. Geelani openly advocates merger with Pakistan, while the so-called 'moderates' speak of 'independence'. The moribund UN Military Observers Group has been revived, and its attitude shows that India needs to urgently talk to Russia and China about curtailing the Western colonial agenda pursued through the United Nations.

The Congress is clueless where to go. Its fairly decent Chief Minister made mistakes after being betrayed by Mehbooba Mufti, one of the most venomous public figures in the country, and lost both his Government and control over the issue. In the violence that followed, the party's former Deputy Chief Minister Mangat Ram Sharma nearly lost his life, though his vehicle was torched. The Congress's leaders, as also Hindu workers of the National Conference and the People's Democratic Party, in Jammu joined hands with the Sangharsh Samiti, a fact whose significance cannot have been lost on the parties concerned.

Finally, a word is in order about the role of women in the current agitation. In Jammu, young and old Hindu women came out in support -- the Reuters photograph of an ethereal eight-year-old clasping a naked sword is certainly the movement's most enduring image.

The presence of women on the battlefield is a very Hindu phenomenon. Centuries ago, Alexander's historians noted with astonishment the presence of Hindu women grabbing the shields or feet of Greek soldiers to frustrate their movements. Centuries later, the British were amazed to see tribal women standing beside Birsa Munda's men and loading rifles for the men to fire.

This was not the case in traditional Islam. Hence the presence of Muslim women in Srinagar, covered head to toe, shouting "Raghda! Raghda!" (Crush! Crush!) and stamping the ground beneath their feet to indicate the trampling of Mother India, cannot be condoned. Muslims who want to live as orthodox Muslims must keep their women out of the war zone. As for the Government of India, it cannot project pusillanimity as chivalry -- the women should have been rounded up and released miles away -- a long walk home would have sobered them all.


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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 03 Sep 2008 02:01

RamaY wrote:
Link

NEW DELHI: India will press Pakistan to expedite the opening of the Line of Control (LoC) for trade as part of a closely-guarded deal intended to defuse the communally-charged shrine-land agitation in Jammu and Kashmir.

....


The soundbite we hear from these new articles are very disturbing...

Why is GOI doing a equal-equal between vally and jammu populations? The first precondition to cross-border trade should be to punish the pakistani-nationals within indian valley.

Why is BJP so quite in such an important policy decision??? are they in bed with this so-called secular responses to valley "aspirations"???

really saddened with the level of disrespect for the majority-hindu sentiments in its own country...



The road opening is important regardless of the Jammu protests. The road opening will give lie to the TSP claim of takleef and also will verify if there is any scope for trade. Right now the problem other than infrastructure for last few miles is the TSP reluctance to open up the road.

And more importatnly any opening should be under GOI initiative and not agitators.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Paul » 03 Sep 2008 02:13

It was primarily due to BJP pressure on implementing the high court verdict that end result is favorable to nationalist forces.




BJP savours twin ‘errors’
SANJAY K. JHA

Jaitley
New Delhi, Sept. 1: The BJP is delighted not just because the Amarnath shrine board has got the land it wanted but because it believes the resolution of the dispute has sent out a larger message.

Namely, that Congress-led governments had bungled on the issue both at the Centre and in the state while the main Opposition party had correctly gauged the public mood.

The BJP now plans to aggressively press the charge that the UPA has little regard for majority sentiments. As evidence, it will club the Amarnath row with the Sethusamudram ship canal controversy where the Centre had questioned the existence of Ram.

BJP leaders have an explanation for these goofs: they claim ally pressure has put the Congress’s centrist politics under strain. Behind this theory lies a bigger political design.

Historically, the Congress’s chief strength has been its capacity to feel the public pulse and take a centrist, middle path on issues, minimising bitterness among competing lobbies. This quality has often led to the party being described as the most authoritative spokesperson for national consensus.

The rightist BJP is now looking to wrest that centrist political space which, Arun Jaitley freely admitted today, is “much larger” than the BJP’s core support base.

Jaitley said: “By making these mistakes, it (the Congress) is vacating the centrist space and we become the natural claimants of that space.”

Jaitley argued that had the Congress stuck to its traditional political style, and not yielded to ally pressure, it would not have bungled so badly on Amarnath and the Ram setu. While the ship canal fiasco allegedly came under DMK pressure, the People’s Democratic Party was behind the Amarnath flip-flop.

The BJP also claims it read the public mood correctly in both the religion-tinged controversies while the Congress was forced to backtrack on both issues.

The Congress-led Ghulam Nabi Azad government had first allotted Kashmir forestland to the shrine board before revoking the order under instructions from Delhi, which gave in to pressure from the Valley. Yesterday’s peace formula handed the land to the board, although with strict conditions absent in the original order.

In the Sethusamudram row, the Centre has stepped back from a gung-ho position about destroying the Ram setu, a chain of lime shoals, to build a ship canal and is considering alternative alignments.



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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Prem » 03 Sep 2008 03:05

ramana wrote:Op-Ed in Pioneer, 2 Sept., 2008

Call the bluff of Kashmiriyat
Sandhya Jain

. As for the Government of India, it cannot project pusillanimity as chivalry -- the women should have been rounded up and released miles away -- a long walk home would have sobered them all.


Aha,
Sandhya Behan is just recommending softer version of my method for women Jihadis what i have been peddling for last few days to deal with Kashmiri Jihadi Muslims. Pick Jihadis from valley , strip them naked and drop them in South or Central India. Let them make their own way back to Valley. And dont forget to inform the local public about their identity and deeds. :twisted: This is guarranted , most humane and democratic way to solve this problem .

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby RamaY » 03 Sep 2008 03:40

Any idea on this Kuldeep Nayar guy? How did he become Indian high commissionar to britain???

This guys is proposing a UN membership for Kashmir aka Ukrain during Soviet Union times... what a Ba$tard... :evil:

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby RamaY » 03 Sep 2008 03:54

The road opening is important regardless of the Jammu protests. The road opening will give lie to the TSP claim of takleef and also will verify if there is any scope for trade. Right now the problem other than infrastructure for last few miles is the TSP reluctance to open up the road.
And more importatnly any opening should be under GOI initiative and not agitators.


Historically, the Congress’s chief strength has been its capacity to feel the public pulse and take a centrist, middle path on issues, minimising bitterness among competing lobbies. This quality has often led to the party being described as the most authoritative spokesperson for national consensus.

The rightist BJP is now looking to wrest that centrist political space which, Arun Jaitley freely admitted today, is “much larger” than the BJP’s core support base.


I really do hope that you guys are correct. My suspicious mind is getting worried with the current trends:

• BJP is not able to mobilize the public mode from the rest of India against the Jammu atrocities and Valley charade… unless it is their strategy not to make it a Hindu issue

• Unless DMK losses the next election and BJP wins the center, it will be difficult to stop the Setusamudram project with the kind of apathy present in the Hindu majority. They stopped responding to any issue, as long as the economy is growing. They don’t even mind India giving up NE and JK to China and Pakistan as long as Indian economy is growing.

• Look at Orissa. Here we have a BJP supported state Govt and still we see such blatant attacks on Hindu interests.

Unless Ramana-saar is prophetic, I don’t see a coherent strategy from BJP, yet…. betting on UPA's weaknesses will take BJP only to certain level...

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 03 Sep 2008 04:02

Boss, I am not party specific. This was always the case. You need to look at it from Indian interests view point and things will be alwasy clear.
Doe the x decision increase Indian interests in political, economical, national security and cultural? Yes to all is the best if not tradeoffs are required.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Satya_anveshi » 03 Sep 2008 07:34

It is unbelievable that after so much $hit happening in Pakistan, Jihadi's getting fired by Paki Soldiers, years of sukun in Valley, the muck can be raked in no time and to a level it starts to hit the fan.

I am amazed at Unkils capacity to start the mess at his whim and equally amazed at incompetence of our administrators in conflict management. It would have been such a good time when Pakis were marching in Waziristan, some of our jihadi leaders could have died in sleep too. But ney...

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rahul M » 04 Sep 2008 13:43

Admiral Arun Prakash: Who cries for India?

Admiral Arun Prakash, former Chief of Naval Staff, was born in Anantnag, J&K, in 1944, and lived his early life in the now troubled state.
Kashmir: the Bitter Harvest

Kashmir is the bitter fruit this nation is harvesting for the myopia, mendacity and incompetence of its political classes. I would like to add a few comments on Kashmir, but before I do so, I would like to offer a small explanation lest the reader wonders how 40 years of service in the Navy qualify me for this.

Two days after my third birthday, on the 30th of October 1947, my mother, two teen-aged brothers and I were huddled under some bushes, as .303 bullets fired by Pakistani raiders ricocheted off the tin roof of our home in Badgam, about 20 km from Srinagar. Badgam lay on the Pakistani raiders’ route from Baramulla to Srinagar airport; a key objective they desperately sought, in order to cut off Kashmir from India.

Earlier that evening, fearful of the timber house catching fire, my father had hustled the family out into the garden, while he went to parley with Major Somnath Sharma, commanding “D” Company of 4 Kumaon deployed in Badgam, to halt the raiders’ advance. As the local revenue officer, my father was responsible for the government records and treasury, and he sought Major Sharma’s help in safe-guarding them. Anticipating a fierce fire-fight, the gallant Major, who was just hours away from earning a PVC and immortality, advised him to leave the battle-zone at the earliest.

After a tense night under the bushes, we piled into the family tonga, and were driven to Srinagar airport where my father bundled us, with just the clothes on our backs, into one of the IAF DC-3 Dakotas that were shuttling between Srinagar and Delhi. That night he watched helplessly, in Badgam, as the raiders set our house and all our possessions aflame.

We returned to J&K after about six months of nomadic existence, and I spent the next decade or so, in different parts of the state; Jammu, Srinagar, Baramulla, Sopore, Anantnag, Doda, and finally Leh (in Ladakh) from where I took my high school examination in 1959, and left for college and later join the Navy.

Growing up in the Valley in the 1950s and 60s, my neighbours and playmates were all Kashmiris; of Muslim, Hindu and Sikh faith. Our parents were friends, we ate in each others’ homes, and celebrated all festivals together. But even as children, we clearly understood that Kashmir was not India, and that the average Kashmiri’s attitude towards India was at best ambivalent, while he definitely had an empathy for Pakistan.

Food in Kashmir was heavily subsidized, education was free, right through college, and India provided huge financial assistance to the state. The Kashmiris took all that was offered, but every evening tuned in to Radio Pakistan to listen to a programme called “Kashmir ki Awaz” which spouted propaganda about Indian army atrocities and heaped scorn on the Bharati occupation of Kashmir. One often heard strains of the Pakistani Qaumi Tarana which announced the end of the programme.

By 1953 Pakistan had become a SEATO ally of the US and it was rumoured that the Americans had offered to make Sheikh Abdullah the king of an independent Kashmir. The tallest Kashmiri figure, and a staunch secularist, the Sher-e-Kashmir was arrested as he was on the verge of crossing the border, allegedly, to collect his crown. Kashmir erupted in protest, and with a sense of déjà vu I recall, as a 9 year old, seeing Baramulla go up in flames as agitators waved Pakistani flags and shouted pro-Pakistan slogans. The army opened fire and many were killed before the Valley relapsed into sullen silence.

Ironically, the crores that India blindly poured into Kashmir, were the biggest cause for resentment against it amongst the populace. The reason was simple; the state was a nest of corruption and nepotism, and possibly up to 95% of Indian funds went to line the pockets of the ruling politicians. The average Kashmiri farmer lived in abject poverty, and come winter, it was common to see an exodus of Kashmiri labourers all over North India; trying to eke out a livelihood carrying head-loads.

The corrupt politicians and the incompetent administrators of Kashmir were perceived as Indian stooges and exploiters, and this impression gradually gained strength as successive elections were seen to be blatantly rigged. By simply throwing money at the problem, and backing the wrong people to rule Kashmir, India steadily alienated its people. Thus, instead of crafting a national strategy for winning over Kashmir, we created the fertile ground in which the ISI repeatedly sowed the seeds of discord, dissension and sedition, till young Kashmiris started picking up Kalashnikovs.
How to Lose Friends

The recurring successes of the ISI in J&K were due, as much to its own strategic acumen and planning skills, as to the short-sighted and blinkered vision of our political leadership. Just as India finished fighting one fire, another would break out; the theft of Prophet Mohammad’s sacred relic, kidnapping of Rubayia Sayeed, seizure of Hazaratbal Shrine, capture and burning down of Charar-e-Sharif, persecution and exodus of Kashmiri Pundits from the Valley, hijacking of IC-814; all followed each other in a depressing sequence. They clearly pointed to the ineptness of our intelligence agencies, a lack of civil-military coordination and the complete absence of a cogent Kashmir strategy in New Delhi.

This is not meant to be a history of Kashmir’s travails, but merely a reminder to those who profess shock and horror at the recent happenings in the Valley, that since 1947 we have not been entirely successful in convincing the Kashmiri that he was an Indian. The struggle for Kashmiri hearts and minds was at best, “work in progress”, while they sat firmly on the fence.

Common sense should inform us that while you do not need to appease people to win them over; but you have to be good and kind to influence them. Events like the demolition of Babri Masjid, the Gujarat pogrom and periodic communal riots certainly could not have won over any Kashmiris. The recent economic blockade, if there was one, must have only confirmed the worst fears of Kashmiris.

Let Us Talk About Kashmir

As the recent crisis shows: our political classes have learnt nothing from history, and given their ineptitude, the Kashmir imbroglio could carry on forever. The Kashmiri leadership, on their part have displayed insensitivity and opportunism of the worst kind. We need to acknowledge that Kashmir has indeed suffered due to the games that the politicians have been playing since 1947, but the Kashmiris cannot deny that much Indian blood has been spilt on their soil, and the nation has lavished huge resources on the State for the betterment of its people.

In the din of political rhetoric, we will never come to know whether or not, “azadi” is what the ordinary Kashmiri wants; and if he does, what exactly he means by it. Meanwhile, the so called Kashmiri leadership can use this slogan to whip up passions in the Valley and thus provide fodder for the Sangh Parivar to do likewise in Jammu.

Perhaps as soon as things calm down in J&K, and Pakistan knows which way it is going, the first thing on everyone’s agenda should be to sit around a table and talk about the options available for finding a just and honourable resolution to this problem which has dragged on for far too long.

Conclusion: How Many More Kashmirs?

But there is a larger issue before us: how do we know that there are not many more Kashmirs in store for India? We have inflicted on ourselves, and we will bequeath to succeeding generations, a political system which makes effective governance virtually impossible. With un-governed areas in the country expanding, it now appears that the integrity and cohesion of the nation may also be in peril.

It is the elected representatives of the people, the law-makers of the land, who should bring about necessary reforms in the system. It is tragic that they will not raise a finger to make the slightest change that will rock the happy boat that they are riding in, at the peoples’ expense.

One wonders if there may, perhaps, be a small ray of hope for the country in the interregnum between the dissolution of the 14th Lok Sabha and the convening of the 15th . Is there a window of opportunity to formulate some reforms, vital to the proper functioning of democracy? Like:

· Reasonable qualifications to be drawn up for a candidate who wishes to stand for elections as a representative of the people, including education, a clean police record and financial probity.

· A stringent code of conduct to be laid down for the elected representatives of the people, including the right to recall, for misconduct, defection or non-performance. There should be no immunity for misdemeanours inside or outside parliament.

· Rules for attendance, participation and conduct of business in the houses of Parliament by MPs to be laid down, and penalties for violating the dignity and decorum of the legislature be stipulated. The “no work no pay” rule be invoked for our representatives.

· Use of religion and caste, as well as violent demonstrations for political ends, and destruction of public property be designated as serious anti-national crimes, inviting heavy penalties.

· Implementation of police reforms, outsourcing of VIP security and according of immunity to the police, from political intimidation and interference.

Perhaps the President of India should think about convening a committee of constitutional experts to give their attention to these issues, and then consult the Prime Minister about the possibility of issuing a Presidential Ordnance after declaration of the election schedule.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Avinash R » 04 Sep 2008 14:09

RamaY wrote:I really do hope that you guys are correct. My suspicious mind is getting worried with the current trends:
• BJP is not able to mobilize the public mode from the rest of India against the Jammu atrocities and Valley charade… unless it is their strategy not to make it a Hindu issue

ramay, sad to repeat myself but there have been protests all over the country and even riots broke over this in indore.

RamaY wrote:• Unless DMK losses the next election and BJP wins the center, it will be difficult to stop the Setusamudram project with the kind of apathy present in the Hindu majority. They stopped responding to any issue, as long as the economy is growing. They don’t even mind India giving up NE and JK to China and Pakistan as long as Indian economy is growing.

The alignment of the channel is the problem not the sethusamudram project. the case is in the Supreme court. once all the factors have been weighed in i'm sure either alignment will be changed or the project will be shelved. moreover even if the commies and their friend karuna get their way there is always divine help that we can pray. check this.
First, the dredging vessel Duck6sank. It was replaced by the Dredging Corporation of India’s biggest dredging vessel, but its spud broke. Another ship was then sent to retrieve the spud, but its crane snapped and crashed into the sea.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 04 Sep 2008 17:10

RamaY wrote:Any idea on this Kuldeep Nayar guy? How did he become Indian high commissionar to britain???

This guys is proposing a UN membership for Kashmir aka Ukrain during Soviet Union times... what a Ba$tard... :evil:



Kuldip Nayar is a WKK
He got ethnic cleansed from sialkot in 1947

A lot of hindus and sikhs who got ethnic cleased in 1947 are WKK
Kushwant Singh, Kuldip Nayar, Sachar, Gujral, kanwal Rekhi, the entire CPI-M politburo
( most of them from east bengal )

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sum » 04 Sep 2008 17:28

But,Why should the people who actually bore the brunt of the Paki anger actually turn WKKs??Any idea?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rahul M » 04 Sep 2008 17:44

dhimmitude.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Sep 2008 18:34

sum wrote:But,Why should the people who actually bore the brunt of the Paki anger actually turn WKKs??Any idea?


i don't think that EC is the 1:1 correlating factor, there are others like ideological orientation, sympathy for 'humanist agendas' etc., etc., there is also the pak refugee equal equal factor as well

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby AjayKK » 04 Sep 2008 18:43

G Subramaniam wrote:

A lot of hindus and sikhs who got ethnic cleased in 1947 are WKK
Kushwant Singh, Kuldip Nayar, Sachar, Gujral, kanwal Rekhi, the entire CPI-M politburo
( most of them from east bengal )


Ahem, this_is_generalisation!
But few can dispute the last line :)

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Nitesh » 04 Sep 2008 19:45

http://timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=15093

Terrorist caught on 'thermal' radar

9/3/2008 7:46:04 AM

It is perhaps the most powerful proof yet of terrorist build up on the International border. TIMES NOW has accessed security footage that shows terrorists camping along the International Border in Jammu and waiting for the opportune moment to strike. As reported time and again, it is Pakistani troops who are aiding this exercise.

At the Border Security Force (BSF) control room in RS Pura sector, footage showing black spots on the TV screen, each representing a militant moving surreptitiously along the International border, has been accessed.

The build up, monitored constantly with Intelligence inputs revealed that aleast 500 terrorists are hiding along the border plotting to strike. For the first time TIMES NOW has managed to access thermal images of the militant build up, which provides more proof of Pakistan's constant provocation.

ML Garg, CO, RS Pura sector said, "Movement of rangers with men in civies has been spotted in these areas."

Not just cover firing, Pakstan rangers even help the militants spot transit points. Des Raj, DIG BSF Frontier said, "Rangers have installed gadgetry on their posts to detect points for crossing over to this side.''

Following the child hostage crisis that ended in a bloody encounter between security forces and terrorists in this house in Jammu, ample proof of Pakistan backing the terror agenda to create more panic in the already troubled state of Jammu and Kashmir has surfaced.

(By Pradeep Dutta)

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Sep 2008 20:30

AjayKK wrote:
G Subramaniam wrote:

A lot of hindus and sikhs who got ethnic cleased in 1947 are WKK
Kushwant Singh, Kuldip Nayar, Sachar, Gujral, kanwal Rekhi, the entire CPI-M politburo
( most of them from east bengal )


Ahem, this_is_generalisation!
But few can dispute the last line :)


you need to meet more people of East Bengali origin :)

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ashish raval » 04 Sep 2008 20:40

Nitesh wrote:http://timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=15093

Terrorist caught on 'thermal' radar



Why cant they be bombed ? by any means ?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2008 01:36

Can someone tell me more about the road opening in Kashmir to Muzaffarabad? Where does that road lead to? What kind of traffic can it take? Is there a plan to access the rest of the Northern Areas? Just M'bad is not enough.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 05 Sep 2008 07:45

ramana wrote:Can someone tell me more about the road opening in Kashmir to Muzaffarabad? Where does that road lead to? What kind of traffic can it take? Is there a plan to access the rest of the Northern Areas? Just M'bad is not enough.



I strongly support opening the trade route to Muzaffarabad ASAP
Reason being, the Kashmiri valley muslims believe POK is heaven

The infrastructure and the buying power is lacking in POK
the POK-Pakistan market maybe 10% of the Indian market

When they realise the lack of market in POK-Pakistan, they may cool down their azadi

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby enqyoob » 05 Sep 2008 07:59

member of the Muslim (Malik) family that had discovered the holy cave shrine about 160 years ago.


There is actually a sound basis for this, per native J&K Pandits whom I know. It is true that the shrine was hidden for hundreds of years (maybe since 12th century) and was revealed with the Muslim shepherd or whoever discovered it. As a result, that family has always been accorded special rights like the right to be guides, sell food etc.

Having them in the Board is an essential idea because their livelihood comes from the pilgrimage.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sum » 05 Sep 2008 08:58

Link
Tape exposes Mirwaiz-Geelani tension; Tehreek approached Hizb

Praveen Swami

Strains among secessionists reaching the breaking point

SRINAGAR: Strains among secessionist leaders in Jammu and Kashmir have reached the breaking point in the wake of a wiretap operation which shows that hardline Islamists have been lobbying terrorists for help to intimidate their more moderate counterparts.

Tehreek-i-Hurriyat leader Masrat Alam Bhat, the August 21 police wiretap shows, complained to the Hizb ul-Mujahideen’s Pakistan-based chief that efforts to accelerate the pace of anti-India mass mobilisation were being sabotaged by a group of spoilers seeking dialogue with the Union government.

Jammu and Kashmir police sources said that a tape of the conversation had been circulated to all top All Parties Hurriyat Conference leaders, including its chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq.

In the tape of the intercepted August 21 conversation, Alam — who was arrested by the Jammu and Kashmir police after a fortnight-long hunt on Thursday — criticises the pro-dialogue group led Mirwaiz Farooq, who he derogatorily refers to as the “bachccha maulvi,” or “baby cleric.”

He also names Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front chief Yasin Malik, identified sarcastically as “Gandhi,” as another key pro-dialogue spoiler.

Some of Alam’s harshest invective is reserved for the APHC’s leading pro-dialogue dove, Abdul Gani Butt. Alam asks the Hizb ul-Mujahideen chief to “take action” against Butt, who he identifies as “tambakoowala.” or “the tobacconist,” in a sardonic reference to his heavy smoking. In the evident belief that Alam is advocating Butt’s assassination, Shah replies that such an action would discredit the Hizb ul-Mujahideen. Alam then clarified that he wanted the Hizb ul-Mujahideen chief to ask Butt’s backers in Pakistan to exert pressure on him.

Alam praises two APHC members — People’s League leader Shabbir Shah and Jammu Kashmir National Front chief Nayeem Ahmad Khan — for supporting Geelani and the Tehreek.

Later in the conversation, Alam claims that three members of the pro-dialogue faction —Mirwaiz Farooq, Sajjad Lone and Malik — met with National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan during his August 19 visit to Srinagar. He also asserts that Lone flew to New Delhi with the NSA.

Neither allegation, highly placed government sources said, was true — but illustrates in stark relief the levels of mistrust between the two secessionist groups. Although the APHC has refused to comment on the contents of the tape, informed sources in the secessionist group said that the Alam-Shah conversation had inflamed its leadership. APHC sources said that at a meeting at Mirwaiz Farooq’s Nigeen home on Wednesday an incensed Butt threatened to issue a public letter accusing Pakistan of harbouring terrorists. Bilal Lone, for his part, demanded that Mirwaiz Farooq review the APHC’s alliance with the Tehreek.
Towards impasse?

While the Mirwaiz appears reluctant to make a public break with Geelani, efforts to shape a unified programme of anti-India agitation appear headed towards an impasse.

On Wednesday, a meeting of a coordination committee responsible for forging unity between the APHC and Tehreek had released a programme of agitation on behalf of both factions.

Secessionist leaders G.M. Hubbi, G.M. Bhat, Fazl-ul-Haq Qureshi, Shakeel Bakshi and Nahida Pervez called on Jammu and Kashmir residents to participate in a one-hour shutdown after congregational prayers on Friday, and follow this up with a strike on Saturday.

Geelani, speaking to journalists on Thursday, rejected the coordination committee’s programme, saying it does not have the hardline group’s consent. He announced that he would offer prayers at the Hazratbal shrine — a long-standing symbolic centre of National Conference authority — on Friday. Tehreek leaders, including Alam, had earlier chosen not to participate in the meeting, saying they feared arrest.

In July, Geelani had given a similar call for a march to Hazratbal.

Both he and Mirwaiz Farooq were detained before the July 4 march, but several second-rung leaders — including Alam, Shah and Khan — had participated in Friday prayers at Hazratbal.

Such public displays of unity have, however, done little to paper over the deep chasm between the two secessionist factions.

Geelani and Mirwaiz Farooq had signed a unity declaration on June 19, soon after protests began against the allocation of land-use rights to the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board. But bitter disputes broke out between the two groups after Geelani proclaimed himself the sole leader of the anti-India movement in Jammu and Kashmir at an August 18 rally in Srinagar.

Still dont understand why does GoI even need to bother about distributing such tapes among the Hurri-rats to break them up?

A bullet or two on a couple of the "leaders" and then spreading disinformation about each other(as to their rival arranging the assassination attempt,acc to GoIs credible sources) should put the fear of god into the rats.....

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 05 Sep 2008 09:13

Why not remove security cover for the Hurriyats and let nature take its course

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby kshirin » 05 Sep 2008 16:58

Do we give security cover? Why on earth?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 05 Sep 2008 17:09

kshirin wrote:Do we give security cover? Why on earth?


The Hurriyats was a creation of Robin Raphael
and they have gotten security cover and AIMS and US medical treatment since then

Yasin Malik and Geelani are alive thanks to kafir medical treatment

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby kshirin » 05 Sep 2008 18:36

Bah!

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby RamaY » 05 Sep 2008 19:32

narayanan wrote:
member of the Muslim (Malik) family that had discovered the holy cave shrine about 160 years ago.


There is actually a sound basis for this, per native J&K Pandits whom I know. It is true that the shrine was hidden for hundreds of years (maybe since 12th century) and was revealed with the Muslim shepherd or whoever discovered it. As a result, that family has always been accorded special rights like the right to be guides, sell food etc.

Having them in the Board is an essential idea because their livelihood comes from the pilgrimage.


Namo' naraayanaaya namaha...

per that logic.. all the mosques in India are once Hindu lands.. can we have Hindus on wokf boards as well.. and it will prove the secular credentials of the religion of peace and tolerance...

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby putnanja » 06 Sep 2008 00:54

Kashmir: is secession the answer?

Kashmir: is secession the answer?

Kanti Bajpai

It would be foolish to argue that the secession of a people is ruled out forever.It would be equally foolish to choose secession without a careful thought of the larger ramifications.

The protests and violence in Jammu and Kashmir have once again raised the issue of the State’s secession from India. While the Amarnath shrine dispute is clearly the trigger for the secessionist calls in the Valley, the agitation there seems to be part of a deeper malaise.

Recognising this, a body of opinion outside Kashmir argues that it is probably time to let the State go. A sense of fatigue over Kashmir and a feeling of discomfort over compelling people to stay within the Indian Union when they want to leave are evident in these arguments. This is understandable: it has been 20 long years of conflict and pain; and it is discomfiting to think that we are holding a people within a community when they are unhappy.

However, secession is never simply a choice internal to the community seeking it because the consequences may well be felt in the larger community from which it is separating and in the international community which it seeks to join. This does not mean that secession is ruled out forever. There are times when it may well be necessary.

Under what circumstances can (or should) a people secede? Political theorists argue that in the face of genocidal violence, a people has a right to secede. They also suggest that massive discrimination and denial of human rights are grounds for secession. But is Kashmir an instance of genocide, discrimination, and egregious human rights abuses?

Have Indian actions in Kashmir amounted to genocidal violence? There has certainly been violence in the Valley, by both the militants and the agencies of the Indian state. While it is true that there has been provocation from the militants and, on occasion, from protesters, there is no avoiding the conclusion that innocents have been illegally detained, there have been rape and pillage, there has been torture, there are people missing, and there are those who have died in faked encounters. Does this amount, though, to genocide? The roll-call of abuses is a melancholic one, but it is not genocide — either in intent or in practice. The Indian government has not sought the extermination of the Kashmiri people whatever its motives and actions over the past 20 years.

Can the government be accused of massively discriminating against them? It would be hard to show that this is the case. If anything, it is the opposite. Article 370 of the Constitution gives the State special rights and privileges. Kashmir has its own Constitution, the only State to have one. No Central law can apply there without the assent of the State legislature. Indians from other States cannot own property in Kashmir (there are other States in the Union where this is true). The Union government’s responsibilities are restricted to foreign policy, defence, and communications. It is true that New Delhi has fiddled with Article 370 or at least with the spirit of it, but it would be an exaggeration to say this amounts to a case for secession.
Economically better placed

Economically, Kashmir is better placed than most other States. It has amongst the lowest levels of poverty. It gets more per capita transfers from the Central government than virtually any other State. One might argue that it could have done better economically; but so could have many other States. The development problems of Kashmir — poverty, lack of education, bad infrastructure, not enough industrialisation and private investment, poor governance, and rampant corruption — are hardly unique to the State. These cannot be attributed to a policy of government vindictiveness.

Human rights violations might be a ground for secession even if discrimination is not. Indian government agencies have a lot to answer for, as noted above. But are their actions a case for secession though? If the government made no attempt to improve its record and if it is true that the Indian political system is without resources and methods to improve its approach to Kashmir, then the case for secession would be strengthened.

Once again, it would be hard to show that the Indian government has been unwilling to rein in its agencies and make restitution for earlier lapses and mistakes. It has prosecuted some members of the police and armed forces who committed human rights excesses. It has got rid of two draconian laws, TADA and POTA, which gave the authorities the power to detain and hold citizens preventively (although there are special powers in place that have not been dismantled).

New Delhi has also tried to educate the army and para-military forces on human rights conduct. Crucially, despite its earlier electoral record of manipulation, the Indian government has held free and fair elections in the State, and the media continue to report on Kashmir, including the excesses of the government. This is not a brilliant record, but it does suggest that the system can be made more accountable.

Even if the government’s record does not justify the case for secession, we might still support the separation if it is shown that those who claim to lead or might come to lead the independent state are representative and responsible agents who would make life better for Kashmiris.

The All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), which claims to represent Kashmiri opinion and which might lead an independent Kashmir, has never been tested electorally, principally because it has chosen not to contest. While it is a coalition of parties, there are parties which are members of the APHC and which do not necessarily support secession. The militants, who are fighting for secession, are even more unknown; evidently, they are more feared than loved. Finally, whatever support the APHC and the militants enjoy in the Valley, their base in Jammu and Ladakh is much smaller.
How representative?

How confidently can we say the APHC and the militants would be better than the present dispensation in giving Kashmir democracy and good governance? Would there be a constitutional government, elections, an independent judiciary, an active media, and public debate? Would religious and ethnic minorities be protected?

The APHC has been remarkably coy about its political values and preferences, so it is hard to tell how respectful it is of democracy. It is ridden with internal conflicts and has displayed little coherence. Perhaps, as a result, it has failed to articulate a cogent view of politics in an independent Kashmir. As for the militants, they have attacked not only the agencies of the Indian government but also unarmed civilians, Muslim and Hindu, with great regularity. Violence against unarmed people is terrorism pure and simple and is surely not encouraging in terms of the political values of these groups. The rising influence of fundamentalist Islam in the Valley also does not augur well for a democratic, pluralist, and open Kashmir.

Before we countenance secession, let us also ask whether or not the geopolitical setting of an independent state would be conducive to independence. Kashmir would be surrounded by three regional powers, two of which are mega states, India and China, and the third is Pakistan, the eighth biggest country in the world in population terms. All three will have claims to Kashmiri territory and allegiance, and will exert enormous pressures on the state in their own strategic interests. That Kashmir is landlocked will not help. Whatever the rights of landlocked states and upper riparians under the international law, Kashmir will be dependent on the goodwill of India and Pakistan, if not China.

Secession is not simply a choice that a community makes of its own free will. Since the effects of secession may be felt far and wide, the international community has a right to bear on the issue. It has a right to ask if the new government will be stable and well organised and capable of preserving its independence. It must also ask whether the effects of secessionism are, on the whole, positive for those near and far. Secession from India could well have calamitous effects within India and Pakistan and on their mutual relations: the fragility of these states and their relationship makes it almost certain that the independence of Kashmir will lead to massive political convulsions. The effects of Kashmiri secession may not be restricted to South Asia. It may flame Islamic militants all over the world. And it could energise separatists well beyond the region.

Kashmiris in the Valley and Indians outside the Valley must consider these issues before accepting the case for secession. It would be foolish to argue that the secession of a people is ruled out forever. It would be equally foolish to choose secession without a careful thought of the larger ramifications.

(The author writes on foreign policy and security issues.)

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby svinayak » 06 Sep 2008 08:30

http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/06/stories ... 791200.htm
After Kashmir shrine war, a compensation battle
:)
Praveen Swami

Compensation for horticulture and businesses could prove politically fraught
The Kashmir Chamber of Commerce and Industry, for its part, says it is willing to engage the government in dialogue but on terms which appear unlikely to lead to a rapid resolution of its compensation demands.

“India acknowledges that there is a dispute in Jammu and Kashmir,” says KCCI chief Mobin Shah, who participated, “so now it accepts that it is responsible for the losses caused to us by an agitation linked to this larger question. So, it should compensate us for all losses caused by the dispute since 1947.”


Calculating even the losses incurred since July won’t be easy. In the case of the horticulture industry, for example, almost every relevant issue from the scale of income to the size of losses are disputed.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Avinash R » 06 Sep 2008 20:29

Lashkar-e-Toiba commander killed in Kashmir
Srinagar | Sabtu, Sep 6 2008 IST

A top commander of Lashkar-e-Toiba was killed by the security forces in north Kashmir this afternoon.

A senior police official said police and 22 Rashtriya Rifles launched a joint operation at Dangerpora Sopore this afternoon following a tip-off about the presence of militants.

During the operation, an encounter took place in which a self styled divisional commander of Lashkar-e-Toiba Qari Usman was killed.

One AK 47 rifle, 2 magazines were recovered from the site of encounter.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 06 Sep 2008 21:01

Where is the "division" that goes along with this "divisional commander"?
Or does every horny illiterate Abdul style himself as such?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby vsudhir » 06 Sep 2008 21:25

Gerard wrote:Where is the "division" that goes along with this "divisional commander"?
Or does every horny illiterate Abdul style himself as such?


illiterate?? :eek: :(( :eek:

'Divisional' is pinglish for 'delusional' onlee.
:mrgreen:

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 07 Sep 2008 07:33

A report from 1986

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1 ... 1-08.shtml

The saddle-valleyed Vale is home to the Kashmir! Pandits and has been for centuries. They have lived mostly unharrassed as a tiny community of Hindus among the Vale's 95% majority Muslims. But the past three years have turned the fabled Vale into a nightmare for the Pandits. And Hindus throughout Kashmir (25% total population of state) are feeling the pressures and injuries of religious discrimination.

The marks of unrest are both psychological and physical. Laws are being enacted that are designed to appropriate Hindu owned properties. And Hindu farmers are having a hard time even getting permission to till their land - once they leave it, it becomes eligible for a takeover. There is rampant discrimination against Hindus in advanced professional career colleges and in government jobs. Hindu students complain that they are not allowed to set up personal shrines in their dormitory rooms while public college halls are routinely converted into mosques. They further state they are being taught a Kashmir history sanitized of its Hinduness.

The Hindus in the Vale are personally enduring the whiplash. One swami has been murdered, young daughters have been adbucted and Hindu businesses and homes are stoned, fire-gutted or destroyed by bombs.

Pilgrimaging to Amarnath, the ice Sivalingam cave, used to be an uninterrupted journey into Siva as incredible landscape and omniscient Being. Now, the pilgrim is jarred on route by the sight of small Siva temples having been spoiled and taken over by Muslim authorities. Hindu temples have become favorite targets. Some have been looted, stoned, burned and bombed, others sealed off by Muslim activists during Hindu festivals to prevent the celebration. At least two have had their revenue-generating property disputed.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby G Subramaniam » 07 Sep 2008 07:38

A report from May 1986

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1 ... 5-05.shtml

Fundamentalist Muslims Forcing Hindus Out of Kashmir

Hindus, driven from their homes by Muslim mobs, huddled under rough woolen blankets and lit fires to stay warm. They were grateful for the five inches of snow that had fallen that day, for as they told reporters, it kept away the Moslems who had said they would be back the following day to kill them.

These were victims of anti-Hindu violence which wracked the picturesque Kashmir valley this February and early March. The destruction was said to be sparked by the opening of the disputed shrine in U.P., Ram Janma Bhoomi, claimed by both Hindus and Muslims. The shrine, locked for nearly 40 years, was opened to Hindu worship by court order this January. That set off waves of Moslem protest and violence throughout North India. Moulvi Mohammed Farooq, spiritual leader of Kashmir's Muslems, blamed the trouble on the TV coverage of the opening. Defending the mindless barbarity, he said, "Whenever we see our brothers in trouble, even if it is in Saudi Arabia, we respond to their problems. You cannot ignore 600 years of Islam."

Response to pleas for intervention from the Central Government to protect the minority Hindus - local police have proved negligent - was too little and too late. But it was a great relief when the Shah government was dismissed and the state was put under Governor's rule, VHP reports, and the situation is described as gradually improving. Pro-Pakistan fundamentalist Muslim elements are feared intent on driving the Hindus out.

The peril is so great that Hindus, under the aegis of the Hindu Action Committee, are seriously discussing a massive migration from the Kashmir Valley. Isolated incidents of harassment of community members occur almost daily.

In February and March 20 temples were totally burned and 38 partially destroyed, 15 homes burned and 764 looted, and 23 shops looted, mostly in the Anantnag district. The Hindustan Times report of March 17 noted: "There are still people in both communities who hope that in due course the wounds will heal, but this optimism may turn out to be illusory." Hindu population has dwindled from 300,000 in 1947 to 80,000 today.

Several hundred members of the Kashmir Hindu (Pandit) community took their grievances to the streets of Delhi on February 27 in a silent march to Parliament. Men, women and children carried large placards calling for an "end of genocide" in Kashmir Valley. In contrast with the latter sentiment of retreat, here they vowed to live with honor and dignity in their homeland. Later, a delegation presented a memorandum demanding official inquiry into the recent riots.

In mid-April the H.A.C. began polling the community for their opinion on the possibility of leaving the state in exodus. Meanwhile, discussions continue, a major factor being the Central Government's responsiveness in taking comprehensive measures to protect the Hindus.

Article copyright Himalayan Academy.

sum
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sum » 07 Sep 2008 09:15

“India acknowledges that there is a dispute in Jammu and Kashmir,” says KCCI chief Mobin Shah, who participated, “so now it accepts that it is responsible for the losses caused to us by an agitation linked to this larger question. So, it should compensate us for all losses caused by the dispute since 1947.”

Thsi itself should prove (to all of us) about the kind of retards we are trying to appease....offer a inch and they will demand a mile...

Avinash R
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Avinash R » 07 Sep 2008 10:24

Hat-trick?
Lashkar-e-Toiba commander killed in Kashmir
Srinagar | Sabtu, Sep 6 2008 IST

A top commander of Lashkar-e-Toiba was killed by the security forces in north Kashmir this afternoon.

A senior police official said police and 22 Rashtriya Rifles launched a joint operation at Dangerpora Sopore this afternoon following a tip-off about the presence of militants.

During the operation, an encounter took place in which a self styled divisional commander of Lashkar-e-Toiba Qari Usman was killed.

One AK 47 rifle, 2 magazines were recovered from the site of encounter.

Al-badr commander killed in J&K encounter
Sunday, September 07, 2008, (Srinagar)
A top leader of the Al-badr militant outfit was killed in an encounter early Sunday in Baramulla district, police said.

Acting on a tip off, police assisted by army cordoned off Warpora village, 60 kms from here, on Saturday night and engaged the militants holed up there in a gun battle, a police spokesperson said.

In the ensuing exchange of fire, Al-badr chief commander Haider was killed on Sunday morning, the spokesman added.

Top Jaish commander killed in encounter
Sunday, September 07, 2008, (Sopore)

A top Jaish-e-Mohammad leader, Barqatullah Ansari alias Haider, was killed in the Valley on Sunday.

The Army and Jammu and Kashmir Police conducted a joint operation in the Sopore district wherein the top Jaish commander was killed.

However, three security personnel were also injured in the operation. Ansari had been operating in the Valley for the past 11 years.


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