J & K news and discussion

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 18 Feb 2009 06:47

So much hate and so little maturity.. Would it kill just to give a normal response without the emoticons and exclamation points? No wonder no one takes these views seriously.

I don't want to you think that I'm inherently against whatever you think but you have to remember that outward appearances count. If you can't act civil, no matter how smart your idea is, people won't listen. It matters how you sell it to them.

Jamwal wrote:Can you explain if J & K residents can buy property, do business all over India, then why rest of Indians not allowed there? Why 4 lakh Kashmiri Hindus are living as refugees in their own country ?

I did not equate Article 370 and Kashmiri Pundits to human rights violations. You did that. So, please explain to me why all these things happen, because I didn't say anything about the legality of said issues. And for the record, I believe we should allow Kashmiri Pundits to return home and live without oppression. I also believe that the government should not be able to stop anyone from buying or settling in Kashmir.

RajeshA wrote:Have you ever thought, that your idealism, fair play, due process, by the book, psychology, etc. doesn't impress the militant at all, but only binds your hands in dealing with him.

Of course I have. And the conclusion I came to is that India is in the state it is today because too many people have thought that bending the rules a little bit here and there doesn't hurt anyone. But if everyone does it, we hurt ourselves. And that's what happens. You cannot be loose with the law, especially in this age of information.

Read this, from a Pakistani blogger:

It was Ayn Rand who said that when opposite principles are clearly and openly defined, it works to the advantage of the rational side; when they are not clearly defined, but are hidden or evaded, it works to the advantage of the irrational side. If the same logic is applied to the conflict between the secularists and fundos (or have we given up already) in Pakistan, then the irrational side will triumph. So basically, we are in a race for becoming more irrational and obnoxious, I think we all know who is gonna win.

viv wrote:What is this 'core' ?

Brihaspati introduced something called the "core-periphery theory" where in any given nation, there are a core people who possess some culture which is either prevalent or held to be a symbol of that nation.

The periphery, those underepresented people may look down on them, but in general, the core and periphery are isolated and do not see each other as one.

India is that nation, with some core history and culture that binds the pieces together but ultimately with little feeling of nationhood or togetherness. The incentives I talked about would be the way to make Kashmiris (the Muslim ones, anyway) feel Indian.

If I missed anyone, please tell me.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Feb 2009 07:13

the basic premise of your idea is correct, that kashmiris should be more integrated with the rest of India, but the ideas you suggest overlooks that the govt has already done more than its share.

your US example doesn't compare, not by a long way. that's because immigrants have to go to the same schools and colleges as any other american.
they need to fit in at some level if they want to move up in life.

in kashmir OTOH, GoI has made sure that kashmiri muslims have no incentive whatsoever to integrate with the rest of India, GoI spends an obscene amount of money to keep them happy where they can simply reinforce their islamic identity, ably bolstered by the fiery neighbourhood maulvi shouting at the top of his voice twice a day.

about police brutalities etc, yes they happen, law enforcement is in a bad shape but that does not mean kashmiris are discriminated against. it's the same story elsewhere in India too.
FYI, police brutalities in west bengal in 70's against the naxalites was as much or even more brutal than that in kashmir.
Compared to those days, kashmiris are treated with kid-gloves.

to achieve the integration that you are advocating,some of the few steps would be
a) ensure a secular education system for all i.e one not giving in to whims of the local bigoted politician
b) revoke art 370
c) take all necessary administrative and legal steps to intimidate and prevent bigoted people from working

the steps you highlighted has already been taken for a looooooong time now and it has run its course. it can't bring about any more integration than it already has.

p.s. I believe you are making the mistake of overlooking the religious factor.
development and trade etc works only when there is no overarching alienating philosophy like islam, that reaches a critical mass whenever the population of muslims crosses a certain threshold.
for example, it works and is working to some extent in the NE but just that won't work in kashmir.

JMT.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 18 Feb 2009 07:24

Rahul M wrote:in kashmir OTOH, GoI has made sure that kashmiri muslims have no incentive whatsoever to integrate with the rest of India, GoI spends an obscene amount of money to keep them happy where they can simply reinforce their islamic identity, ably bolstered by the fiery neighbourhood maulvi shouting at the top of his voice twice a day.

Your absolutely right. I am not opposed to government intervention in Kashmir but we have to give them incentives to give up some parts of their Islamic lifestyle if it impedes with becoming productive citizens.

In the same way that globalization has led to the Westernization of Indians in certain parts of India, Kashmiris will too become Indianized when there little bubble pops.

p.s. I believe you are making the mistake of overlooking the religious factor. development and trade etc works only when there is no overarching alienating philosophy like islam, that reaches a critical mass whenever the population of muslims crosses a certain threshold.

I haven't talked about it because I consider it a given. Religion is certainly a problem in that area, but I just assumed you would have considered that.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 18 Feb 2009 11:30

Keshav wrote:
I did not equate Article 370 and Kashmiri Pundits to human rights violations. You did that. So, please explain to me why all these things happen, because I didn't say anything about the legality of said issues. And for the record, I believe we should allow Kashmiri Pundits to return home and live without oppression. I also believe that the government should not be able to stop anyone from buying or settling in Kashmir.

Kashmir is leeching on resources collected from rest of India.
Any Kashmiri with enough money never lets his kids study in Kashmir. I've seen 100s of KMs studying in schools and colleges outside the valley and opting for jobs everywhere but Kashmir unless of course they get govt. jobs .
OTOH, Indians (non - Kashmiris) can never study or work in valley safely.
They don't even have the constitutional right to live and work in a part of their own country. Is it due to Indian Army/Govt or xenophobic and illogical attitude of Kashmiris ?
These people burn Indian flag, chant Hum hain Pakistani, Hindustan ragda kind of slogans, yet when it comes to money they come begging for INDIAN money. Is it ever denied? I don't know of any such incident.

Read something about how lakhs of Hindus forced to leave their homes. How mullahs from mosques called upon "phreedom phighterz" to kill anyone supporting India, warning pamphlets against Hindus were pasted everywhere and dozens of unarmed people dragged out of their homes and shot dead in front of their families just to set an example.
I suppose such incidents are not HR violations because Hindus are at receiving end here. After all, ba***** should suffer for Babri Masjid, Palestine, Iraq and million other crimes.
This happened before army was deployed there.

If KMs are being oppressed by India, how come India is not doing what Pakisatan did in PoK and Israel is doing in Gaza and other occupied territories? Unlike Pak and Israel, India wouldn't have to bring outsiders. Just ensure that Indian citizens get back their homes and properties and live there securely. Who is opposing this?

Read this, from a Pakistani blogger:
If the same logic is applied to the conflict between the secularists and fundos (or have we given up already) in Pakistan, then the irrational side will triumph. So basically, we are in a race for becoming more irrational and obnoxious, I think we all know who is gonna win.

[/quote]

Seriously, are you aware of difference between Indian and Pakisatani policies regarding terrorism and treatment of minorities among other things?
Do you think Indian army/govt is supporting Hindu extremists ?

Finally let me summarize:

1) KMs oppose deployment of Indian Army.
Army was called back, CRPF deployed and presence of even CRPF is being scaled down to make way for J&K police (staffed by locals)
BTW, KMs were never prohibited from joining army or any other force.

2) They want money.
They get it by truckloads. Just study state budget

3) They want autonomy
Already have it more than any other state. Article 370 among others

4) Religious Freedom
Indian constitution has too much of it already. They were not satisfied..so kicked out 99.9% of Hindus. Got bored of that, raked up controversy over Amarnath land issue. (You can read older posts in this or older J&K thread for more info). Dmanded Nizam-e-mustafa.(Islamic rule)

5) Opening of state borders with Pakisatan
Done too. It's other matter that trade links started with much fanfare cooled down within weeks due to fraud by their brothers across the border.

6) Almost free Haj. Srinagar airport made international (which was never needed)

7) More power
Most of state govt jobs are filled by Kashmiris only. Only one Non-Kashmiri CM (for 2 and a half years term )in 60+ years

What else do you demand for poor souls? There are limited holes for even multiple GUBO sessions

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 18 Feb 2009 12:10

Possibly the GoI has thrown a lot of money but in the wrong direction sometimes with regards to Kashmir , I went to Srinagar for the airport inauguration but could not help but notice that Downtown Srinagar is absolutely run down - compared to the city the airport looks absolutely world class and it's possibly the first taste a Kashmiri has had of Indian Development after the section 1 rail was started.

Article 370 is a nuisance and has done more than TSP to isolate Kashmir from the rest of India , more soft measures regarding infrastructure is desperately needed , we cannot just plant Kashmiri pundits back to the valley now , the life of Avg. kashmiri has to be improved .

I seriously don't know where the money is lost in Kashmir because Power , Water , roads , education is still a massive problem.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 18 Feb 2009 13:07

Nihat wrote:
I seriously don't know where the money is lost in Kashmir because Power , Water , roads , education is still a massive problem.

J&K isn't 2nd most corrupt state in India for nothing. It still has highest per capita income.
Regarding power and water, nobody ever cares to pay bills. Electricity meters were installed all over J&K without any incident except Kashmiri homes. There were protests against authorities when such work was being done and govt as usual bent over. Ask any Kashmiri about taxes and bill payments he has made in last 2-3 decades.

This b******t going around was one big reason behind months long protests in Jammu last year.

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 18 Feb 2009 13:45

jamwal wrote:Regarding power and water, nobody ever cares to pay bills.

The above is true. And as per this October 04 report,

Wherever meters had been installed, there were allegations that the field staff had been trying to persuade the consumers to pay half of the metered tariff and get the meter reading reversed. There is always a lot of political pressure for posting of meter readers and line staff in the urban areas, particularly in the cites of Jammu, Srinagar and the district towns.

Corruption has touched a new high in the PDD and a number of meter readers and subordinate staff are living a life of luxury. Things are equally bad at the higher level where no action was taken against the corrupt officials.

Not only the ordinary consumers, but also the government departments are on the defaulters list of the PDD. Arrears amounting to more than Rs 500 crore are standing against at least 70 departments, including various units of the PDD.

While consumption of electricity is higher in the Kashmir valley, realisation of tariff is less there than in the Jammu division.

While a sum of Rs 118.22 crore was recovered from consumers in the Kashmir valley for 3441.13 million units of electricity supplied last year, the recovery was Rs 204.88 crore in Jammu for 2839.24 million units.

Successive governments have failed to install tamper proof electricity meters. The Mufti government had assigned the work to the National Thermal Power Corporation, but the work was progressing at a snail's speed as the local staff was not cooperating.

The previous government had to abandon the drive to install meters as the line staff allegedly provoked the consumers in certain areas to launch an agitation against the move.

At Rs.118 cr for 344 crore units, Kashmiris paid less than 50 paise per unit . A 'fixed charge' supply is almost like an unlimited power supply line.

Meanwhile, Functioning of Govt offices totally stalled. On day 2 of employees’ strike, no immediate solution in sight

JAMMU, Feb 17: The functioning of Government offices was stalled completely with the ongoing strike of over five lakh State Government and Public Sector Undertakings employees on the second consecutive day today while no immediate resolution of the issue was insight as no further dialogue could be resumed between the representatives of the employees and the Government.

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Feb 2009 15:49

The $#%@^ want to have a administration devoid of any Indian hold/influence but want GoI pay scales and strike for it?

Truly Greedy and opportunistic....

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 18 Feb 2009 17:25

Jamwal saar,

I do notice that your views are reports from on location in J&K, are backed by external sources in the free media and look at th larger picture in context.

But there's still something missing.....'maturity'.

No wonder *no one* can take your views seriously. Sorry, dude....no can do only....

/Jus' kiddin'... take it easy.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 18 Feb 2009 20:36

jamwal wrote: OTOH, Indians (non - Kashmiris) can never study or work in valley safely.
They don't even have the constitutional right to live and work in a part of their own country. Is it due to Indian Army/Govt or xenophobic and illogical attitude of Kashmiris ?

Probably due to both.

These people burn Indian flag, chant Hum hain Pakistani, Hindustan ragda kind of slogans, yet when it comes to money they come begging for INDIAN money. Is it ever denied? I don't know of any such incident.

Now that elections have gone smoothly and Hurriyat lost quite a few seats, what should India financially via Kashmir? Do the election results matter?

Read something about how lakhs of Hindus forced to leave their homes. How mullahs from mosques called upon "phreedom phighterz" to kill anyone supporting India, warning pamphlets against Hindus were pasted everywhere and dozens of unarmed people dragged out of their homes and shot dead in front of their families just to set an example.
I suppose such incidents are not HR violations because Hindus are at receiving end here. After all, ba***** should suffer for Babri Masjid, Palestine, Iraq and million other crimes.
This happened before army was deployed there.

I know damn well what happened to Hindus in Kashmir. Don't tell me I don't care about my own people. But what are you supposed to do now? Just set the army there to kill a few people here or there and hope everything works out for the best?

If KMs are being oppressed by India, how come India is not doing what Pakisatan did in PoK and Israel is doing in Gaza and other occupied territories? Unlike Pak and Israel, India wouldn't have to bring outsiders. Just ensure that Indian citizens get back their homes and properties and live there securely. Who is opposing this?

I don't disagree with you. I'm sure the Kashmiri Muslims have a lot to stall their integration with the rest of India.

Seriously, are you aware of difference between Indian and Pakisatani policies regarding terrorism and treatment of minorities among other things?
Do you think Indian army/govt is supporting Hindu extremists ?

I'm sorry if you read that comment the wrong way. I didn't provide much context so I suppose its my fault, so let me explain it. The only thing you were supposed to take away from that comment was the quote by Ayn Rand, not the subsequent commentary from the author. Essentially, that once the people talk about the ideas rather than forming cliques and gleefully confirming each others opinions, the rational ideas will come forth.

What else do you demand for poor souls? There are limited holes for even multiple GUBO sessions

I didn't know the Army had been scaled back already. Do you know what the troop strengths are and what the composition of troops are (i.e. Kashmiri vs. Non-Kashmiri)?

You obviously know more about the situation there than me, so let me just say this.

I never said anything about the budget, religious freedom, or Article 370 in my original post. My only comment was that India could possibly use the withdrawal of troops to better integrate Kashmiri Muslims with the rest of the country.

I agree that Article 370 and spending in Kashmir are stupid and wasteful. I agree that there certainly is a degree of religious bigotry in the name of Islam and a pension to glorify Pakistan.

You don't think I get angry thinking about what happened/ing to Hindus in Kashmir?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Feb 2009 21:13

Just set the army there to kill a few people here or there and hope everything works out for the best?

what tosh is this about "sending army to kill a few people here or there" ??

FYI, look at the state from a tactical perspective with china and pak on both sides, both with better infrastructure than us(mostly).
in case of a conventional war we can well have the state cut off from rest of India for a few days (if TSP successfully attacks the chicken's neck) when forces there would be on their own.

given that both TSP and PRC can amass huge forces at a moment's notice on LOC AND LAC, go through the deployments and tell me if they are excessive ??

It is Indian land and we are under no obligation whatsoever to remove army from a province that shares borders with not one but two hostile neighbours.
remove troops from J&K and keep them where ? pondicherry ?
why exactly ?

FWIW, a large proportion of the forces deployed are local, like the J&K police and SOG.
FYI there is also a J&K LI which gave a robust account of themselves during kargil.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -jakli.htm

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 18 Feb 2009 21:19

Keshav wrote:
Your absolutely right. I am not opposed to government intervention in Kashmir but we have to give them incentives to give up some parts of their Islamic lifestyle if it impedes with becoming productive citizens.

Keshav, could you elaborate what special incentive should be given so that Islamic fundamentalism does not enchant the Kashmiris. I have been seeing your posts on materialism and religion and it seems that you think that poverty is one of the reasons that propels fundamentalist Islam. I do not agree with your assertion, because once again there are millions and millions of poor Hindus who do not exactly behave in the way in which fundamentalist Islam works. Still it will be interesting to hear your opinion. Why the extreme necessity to become other, why the extreme urge for separatism? And what incentive finally?

And regarding the army deployment. The deployments in 1948 were after barbaric excesses committed on the native populations in 1948. Does the rape of Baramulla remind something? If that state is captured by Pak army and the PRC, well the planes are open for further invasions.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Feb 2009 21:29

Let us ask simple questions

Keshav,
Have been to J&K and stayed there for some time.
Have you visited other states close to J&K

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Feb 2009 21:36

These people burn Indian flag, chant Hum hain Pakistani, Hindustan ragda kind of slogans, yet when it comes to money they come begging for INDIAN money. Is it ever denied? I don't know of any such incident.

TV news reporting that many thousands of kashmiri have lined up for recruitment into the Indian Army in the current recruitment drive, surprising both the Army recruiters as well as the separatists.

Go figure.

They want to have your cake and eat their's too.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 19 Feb 2009 02:10

Keshav wrote:
jamwal wrote: OTOH, Indians (non - Kashmiris) can never study or work in valley safely.
They don't even have the constitutional right to live and work in a part of their own country. Is it due to Indian Army/Govt or xenophobic and illogical attitude of Kashmiris ?
Probably due to both.

So it's equal-equal! The Indian Army is somehow partially to blame for depriving non-Kashmiri Indians of their constitutional right to live and work anywhere in India? I'd never have guessed.

How many times have we seen "equal-equal" (self-serving equivocation) being peddled under the guise of even-handed detachment and intellectual maturity of analysis? Don’t miss the object lesson here.

These people burn Indian flag, chant Hum hain Pakistani, Hindustan ragda kind of slogans, yet when it comes to money they come begging for INDIAN money. Is it ever denied? I don't know of any such incident.
Now that elections have gone smoothly and Hurriyat lost quite a few seats, what should India financially via Kashmir? Do the election results matter?

Hurriyat lost quite a few seats? Hurriyat? When did the All Parties Hurriyat Conference last contest a J&K State Election, that they had any seats to lose?

Do you read at all? Do you bother to inform yourself of even the most basic facts about J&K at all, before allowing your omniscience to erupt here? Or do you simply bend over BRF as if we were a toilet bowl, open your mouth and hurl?

I know damn well what happened to Hindus in Kashmir. Don't tell me I don't care about my own people. But what are you supposed to do now? Just set the army there to kill a few people here or there and hope everything works out for the best?

That scintillating assessment of India's counter-insurgency operations and administrative policies in Kashmir, no doubt comes from the same Pakistani blogger who quotes Ayn Rand.

If KMs are being oppressed by India, how come India is not doing what Pakisatan did in PoK and Israel is doing in Gaza and other occupied territories? Unlike Pak and Israel, India wouldn't have to bring outsiders. Just ensure that Indian citizens get back their homes and properties and live there securely. Who is opposing this?
I don't disagree with you. I'm sure the Kashmiri Muslims have a lot to stall their integration with the rest of India.

"A lot to stall their integration"... what an impressive concession to reality we see here. "A lot", but apparently not too much... so that appeasement by withdrawing the Indian Army from a border state with two hostile neighbours remains a proposal worthy of serious consideration.

Seriously, are you aware of difference between Indian and Pakisatani policies regarding terrorism and treatment of minorities among other things?
Do you think Indian army/govt is supporting Hindu extremists ?
I'm sorry if you read that comment the wrong way. I didn't provide much context so I suppose its my fault, so let me explain it. The only thing you were supposed to take away from that comment was the quote by Ayn Rand, not the subsequent commentary from the author. Essentially, that once the people talk about the ideas rather than forming cliques and gleefully confirming each others opinions, the rational ideas will come forth.

Ok, this is great. First, let's examine the "Ayn Rand" quote itself:

It was Ayn Rand who said that when opposite principles are clearly and openly defined, it works to the advantage of the rational side; when they are not clearly defined, but are hidden or evaded, it works to the advantage of the irrational side.

I wondered how this was supposed to be germane to the thread. All of India's principles in J&K are clearly defined. The Instrument of Accession is clearly defined. The Indian Constitution, and the J&K Constitution of 1956, are clearly defined. Article 370 is clearly defined, as are both sides of the debate surrounding it. There is nothing about the Indian position that isn't rational, or hasn't been articulated many times over (if one bothers to do a little reading).

Well now, with the poster's brilliantly self-serving "interpretation" of that quote, we find out how it was supposed to be relevant!

Essentially, that once the people talk about the ideas rather than forming cliques and gleefully confirming each others opinions, the rational ideas will come forth

Because you see, the accumulated wisdom of this thread is a mass of unsubstantiated "opinions"; those who have read and researched the J&K issue and contributed their views and information are a "clique"; and we of the "clique" circumscribe the lines of thought on this thread by "gleefully confirming each others opinions".

Our doing this is somehow advantageous to the "irrational side", and ensures victory for the "fundoos" as the poster's much-admired Pakistani blogger will testify.

So it's time for us to be "rational" and welcome instead the poster's brilliant ideas, such as

that India could possibly use the withdrawal of troops to better integrate Kashmiri Muslims with the rest of the country.

Because, even though they come from a place of numbing ignorance, with no grounding in reality whatsoever, this poster has made it clear that he holds a monopoly on the “rational”.

I didn't know the Army had been scaled back already. Do you know what the troop strengths are and what the composition of troops are (i.e. Kashmiri vs. Non-Kashmiri)?

I suppose the “rational” idea begged by this inane question is that “non-Kashmiri” troops defending Indian territory should be cut back, since their presence intolerably offends the tender sensibilities of Kashmir’s Islamic Supremacists. What a brilliant prescription to extend the exclusivism of Article 370 into the organization of the Indian Army as a whole.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 19 Feb 2009 03:07

Rudradev ji,

incisive as always!

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 19 Feb 2009 04:02

RD,

The SDRE Ibex were sought to be pointed in a 'mature' direction, right off the cliff.... but thankfully that grandiose design, mercifully, failed grandiosely.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 19 Feb 2009 07:33

Rudradev wrote: How many times have we seen "equal-equal" (self-serving equivocation) being peddled under the guise of even-handed detachment and intellectual maturity of analysis? Don’t miss the object lesson here.

The thing is, we also have to assume the KM hate of the Indian Army, however unjustified, exists. How do you remove that hate?

It has to be a joint solution of efficiently using the troops that India has while manipulating public opinion. How do you get the Kashmiris to agree with Indian policy? If we can do it without removing the Indian Army, I'm all for it, but I honestly don't have any answers, which is why I said we should consider the possibility. I didn't say I was 100% sure it would work.

Isn't that what a forum is for? Talking about different ideas even if you disagree with them?

That scintillating assessment of India's counter-insurgency operations and administrative policies in Kashmir, no doubt comes from the same Pakistani blogger who quotes Ayn Rand.

Jesus man, I just overexaggerated a little bit. My point was that force is not going to solve all of our problems. Positive reinforcement is more powerful than negative reinforcement.

"A lot to stall their integration"... what an impressive concession to reality we see here.

That was a typo on my part. I meant to say:
"I'm sure the Kashmiri Muslims have done a lot to stall their integration with the rest of India."

I wondered how this was supposed to be germane to the thread. All of India's principles in J&K are clearly defined. The Instrument of Accession is clearly defined. The Indian Constitution, and the J&K Constitution of 1956, are clearly defined. Article 370 is clearly defined, as are both sides of the debate surrounding it. There is nothing about the Indian position that isn't rational, or hasn't been articulated many times over (if one bothers to do a little reading).

We need to let the people know. The people of Kashmir are mired in ignorace about the situation and their own superstition.

We need to find Kashmiris who are willing to tow the Indian line and convince the others to embrace India rather than shun it.

That was the point of the Ayn Rand quote. Those in power in Kashmir have a vested interest in obscuring the facts about their political situation. India has to assert the rational reality of it and practice will follow in time.

Our doing this is somehow advantageous to the "irrational side", and ensures victory for the "fundoos" as the poster's much-admired Pakistani blogger will testify.

You just confirmed my suspicion about the cliques. I may not necessarily disagree with you or maybe I do, but I offered a point that didn't jive with you and you attacked. That is clique thinking. You want someone to confirm your ideas not challenge them. How can that be good for strategic thinking?

Because, even though they come from a place of numbing ignorance, with no grounding in reality whatsoever, this poster has made it clear that he holds a monopoly on the “rational”.

I said its possible. That means that the idea is up for discussion not that it is inherently more right. Maybe there's just a communication gap between us as I (probably) grew up in a different country than you and the nuances of the English language might differ depending on where we learned it.

I suppose the “rational” idea begged by this inane question is that “non-Kashmiri” troops defending Indian territory should be cut back, since their presence intolerably offends the tender sensibilities of Kashmir’s Islamic Supremacists. What a brilliant prescription to extend the exclusivism of Article 370 into the organization of the Indian Army as a whole.

Well, that would be wrong regardless. The recent Army recruitment drives seem to have done exceptionally well even among Kashmiri Muslims.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 19 Feb 2009 07:36

Abhi_G wrote: Keshav, could you elaborate what special incentive should be given so that Islamic fundamentalism does not enchant the Kashmiris. I have been seeing your posts on materialism and religion and it seems that you think that poverty is one of the reasons that propels fundamentalist Islam

Poverty is certainly responsible for part of it because poverty cannot raise the intelligence of a person. We see this in places like Iraq where thousands of potential jihadis have been bought off by the Americans.

But I absolutely agree with you that the barbarity with which Hindus were slaughtered in 1948 (and throughout history) is definitely derived from pure unadulterated religious bigotry.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Feb 2009 09:01

Well, that would be wrong regardless. The recent Army recruitment drives seem to have done exceptionally well even among Kashmiri Muslims.

AFAIK, army recruitment drives have always done well among KMs, local ups and downs notwithstanding.

may be Ray Sir can throw more light on this.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 19 Feb 2009 09:30

Keshav wrote:

viv wrote:What is this 'core' ?
Brihaspati introduced something called the "core-periphery theory" where in any given nation, there are a core people who possess some culture which is either prevalent or held to be a symbol of that nation.

The periphery, those underepresented people may look down on them, but in general, the core and periphery are isolated and do not see each other as one.

India is that nation, with some core history and culture that binds the pieces together but ultimately with little feeling of nationhood or togetherness. The incentives I talked about would be the way to make Kashmiris (the Muslim ones, anyway) feel Indian.
.

You are making a lot of assumptions - after discussing elections you imply that the people of Kashmir are under-represented. All Sadar-e-riyasat (equiv to prime minister) have been from Kashmir; none from Jammu, Ladakh; none from among the Gujjars or Bakarwals. At the same time these under-represented from J&K are not the ones with the gun. There has to be a different reason than Kashmiris being unrepresented.
( "the Muslim ones" is a generalization. Also, would you consider any other country giving special rights to a particular religion as correct?)

Another question I had asked was - What are the incentives you mention ? Certainly, the Government and people of India have enabled Kashmiris complete access to the rest of the country, equal (more than equal) right in the Constitution and the Parliament.

A concrete suggestion of incentives will help one understand your argument better. As of now it appears that you see a conflict, see some grievances articulated, and are suggesting that something be done. However, what are the incentives you are suggesting?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Feb 2009 09:38

The JAK Militia was composed of Kashmiri Muslims except 8 JAK Militia which was of Dogras. Their deployment was only in J&K.

The JAK Militia got converted to JAK LI. This allowed the Kashmiri Muslims to get deployed on an all India basis. It allowed better integration of the Kashmiri Muslim as they got a chance to see the environment beyond Kashmir.

It is also a fact that Kashmiri Muslims are not only in JAK LI, but also in other Regiments and Services. I had two such boys in my own unit, which was an all India mix and they did well.

Therefore, there was always Kashmiri Muslims in the Army and recruitment was always there.

The Army has always been the defacto administrative agency of Kashmir, since the civil administration is highly corrupt. Road and track building, mosque building, helping them with rations etc etc. Therefore, one should not go by what happens in the politically sensitive area happenings and the media hype. In the remote areas and areas away from these politically sensitive towns or Srinagar, the Army is not really disliked since it is their lifeline.

The Army's Sadbhavna project has been an immense success. Children have been taken on tours of India right down to the South and East. They have been exposed to what is India. The Sadbhavna scheme established Schools, medical clinics, recreation centres, sports facilities and training, veterinary assistance etc all manned and funded by the Army has made an effect on the mindset.

These children who have been taken on tours and given an exposure to the Army and India naturally must have been impressed and these children who are now adults want to have the 'real' thing and so they are the ones who have come to the forefront to be recruited!

Further, the mood of the population is changing for the better.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Feb 2009 10:45

vsudhir wrote:Jamwal saar,

But there's still something missing.....'maturity'.

No wonder *no one* can take your views seriously. Sorry, dude....no can do only....

/Jus' kiddin'... take it easy.

yeah..old age has made me senile

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Feb 2009 13:48

in kashmir OTOH, GoI has made sure that kashmiri muslims have no incentive whatsoever to integrate with the rest of India, GoI spends an obscene amount of money to keep them happy where they can simply reinforce their islamic identity, ably bolstered by the fiery neighbourhood maulvi shouting at the top of his voice twice a day.

An interesting point.

It is Yes and No.

It is an interesting situation in Kashmir. The "integration'' (as applicable to all other States) depends upon the mentality of the people of the State. The Kashmiris, unlike the others, are laid back in psyche. One should go through their history. Their history is mainly being ruled by conquerors and hence they abhor authority and are very insular. They are happy with their lot and don't strive for anything ambitious or challenging.

Even all this terrorism, the JKLF has taken the backseat and instead the non Kashmiri terrorist organisations are ruling the roost! They are a very pacifist race, whatever be their religion. They are basically good people interested in only their immediate existence.

They have realised that all this terrorism is of no use, even if their mentors (Pakistan) are doing their job for them. That is why the elections were a success as with the Army recruitment rally. If they were really bothered about an independent Kashmir, surely they would not have displayed all this.

One has to visit Kashmir (not Srinagar alone) to realise what is the real Kashmir and how they don't care a damn as to who is ruling or who is not, so long as they can eke their own life in peace and without interference.

The Islamic stuff is engineered by Pakistan money and hype. Money does speak! It speaks the world over!

They are Sufis and they are what the modern youth will call - cool!

sum · Post by **sum** » 22 Feb 2009 19:45

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/jk-ki ... wn/426732/
J-K killings: Murder case against Army, curfew in town

Srinagar: Even as Jammu and Kashmir Government ordered a magisterial enquiry into the firing incident in Sopore town in which two youths were killed and another critically wounded, police registered a murder case against army in this regard.

While locals allege Army personnel moving in a bullet-proof vehicle resorted to firing at a place near a local bus stand without any provocation, the Army said militants in combat dress opened fire to escape from security forces.

Col Sanjeev, Commander of 22 Rashtriya Rifles said, "Our trooper was searching vehicles in the area. Two militants wearing 'pheran' (loose gown worn by Kashmiris during cold) refused to alight from a vehicle. When the trooper asked them to raise their hands they opened fire killing two persons."

Not sure whats going on here and whom to believe?

When was the last time people protested and went on the rampage when a terrorist threw a grenade at a crowd and killed innocent by-standers?

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 22 Feb 2009 20:47

Militant mother stands between son and cricket

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Feb 2009 00:39

India, Pakistan were close to Kashmir accord

The Post reports that under the plan, the Kashmir conflict would have been resolved through the creation of an autonomous region in which local residents could move freely and conduct trade on both sides of the territorial boundary.

Over time, the border would become irrelevant, and declining violence would allow a gradual withdrawal of troops that now face one another across the mountain passes.

"It was huge - I think it would have changed the basic nature of the problem," the New Yorker article quoted a senior Indian official as saying. "You would have then had the freedom to remake Indo-Pakistani relations."

According to Coll's account, the secret negotiations consisted of about two dozen meetings in hotel rooms in various overseas locations.

The sessions revolved around developing a document known as a 'non-paper', diplomatic term for a negotiated text that bears no names or signatures and can "serve as a deniable but detailed basis for a deal," the New Yorker article says.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 23 Feb 2009 01:54

Keshav wrote: I also believe that the government should not be able to stop anyone from buying or settling in Kashmir.

You have the right idea, abolish Article 370, let the rest of the Indians buy property in Kashmir, therin lies the solution of the Kashmir problem!

Abolishing Article 370 is the key.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Feb 2009 02:01

His father Muhammad Qasim Fuktoo, a militant commander who subsequently set up a religious organisation called Muslim Deeni Mahaz (Muslim Religious Front), has been in prison since 1994 and is currently lodged in the Srinagar Central
http://www.kashmirlive.com/story/Milita ... 26612.html

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 23 Feb 2009 17:15

Villagers defend themselves from militants in J-K

arun · Post by **arun** » 23 Feb 2009 22:40

Perhaps Asiya Andarbi would have found it all acceptable if the game consisted of balls that were hand grenade's to be hurled by the Momin while the batsmen were all Kaafirs :

Kashmiri boy loves cricket, separatist mother says no

arun · Post by **arun** » 23 Feb 2009 22:42

A malaise it seems that is not restricted to a section of Muslims within our frontiers but one that is also prevalent in sections of Muslims in Pakistan and Britain.

Extract from Civitas report released of Feb 20th titled “Music, Chess and other Sins: Segregation, Integration, and Muslim Schools in Britain”.

Cricket does seem to be on the Islamisist hit list :

…….. 'When a fatwa bank linked from a school tells a boy that dreaming of playing cricket for Pakistan is forbidden because it is a sacrilegious waste of time, or stipulates that reading Harry Potter books is prohibited; or another argues that pupils must not read 'shameless novels and fiction books', that Ludo, Monopoly, draughts and chess are forbidden because 'the Holy Prophet stated the person who plays chess, is like the one who dips his hands in the blood of a swine (pig)', and condemns 'the evil system of the Western culture'; or when a site run by an educational institution writes an article stating: 'One should abstain from evil audacities such as listening to music'; and when a graduate of the last institution speaks of the 'evils of music', calls the Royal College of Music 'satanic', and claims that music is the way in which Jews spread 'the Satanic web' to corrupt young Muslims-how are we to respond? .............

The Civitas press release giving a brief overview of the report is here :

Think-tank calls for vetting of Muslim schools to eliminate fundamentalists

The Full report is available here :

Music, Chess and other Sins: Segregation, Integration, and Muslim Schools in Britain

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Feb 2009 22:47

Kashmiri boy loves cricket, separatist mother says no

Asiya Andrabi herself wanted to do post-graduate studies but was prevented from doing so by her parents.

manish · Post by **manish** » 24 Feb 2009 19:50

Reuters did an interview with Omar Abdullah

India granted a "lifeline" after Kashmiri elections
Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:37pm IST
By Alistair Scrutton and Matthias Williams

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India has been granted a "lifeline" after most Kashmiris voted in landmark elections but the government must avoid complacency and intransigence if it is to bring peace, Kashmir's new leader said on Tuesday.

But the bad timing of an economic slowdown, a general election and the diplomatic aftermath of November's Mumbai attacks mean quick progress in the disputed region will be almost impossible, Omar Abdullah told Reuters in an interview.

He has the following to say about the so called 'Secret Talks' that are said to have taken place between India and TSP over Kashmir last year:

"This non-paper was being circulated. It was autonomy, devolution, self government," he said. "It basically meant that the central unit would have a little less control ... We'd like to see this non-paper revived."

Here's the link to the full article:

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... 24?sp=true

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 25 Feb 2009 05:16

Photo Story :

For 15,000 Kashmiri youth, the Army beckons

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 25 Feb 2009 18:46

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =101087530

Steve Coll's interview on NPR yesterday regarding Kashmir and India/Pakistan Non-Paper on a settlement ... Listen to the whole audio file ...

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 25 Feb 2009 19:04

Eye on polls for Lonely separatist - Hurriyat leader mulls end to ‘political exile’

New Delhi, Feb. 24: People’s Conference leader Sajjad Lone may become the first Kashmiri separatist to break ranks with the Hurriyat and join electoral politics when India goes to the polls this summer.

Hurriyat circles have indicated to The Telegraph that Lone is actively considering “strong advice” from friends, party members and constituents that he should “end his meaningless political exile” and contest the Baramulla Lok Sabha seat.

Lone himself was not available for comment but a close friend and adviser said: “Pressure has been growing on Sajjad to take the plunge particularly because we all know he does not see eye to eye with most Hurriyat leaders and their politics really is headed nowhere. Sajjad is still young and those keen on him contesting believe that Kashmir needs an articulate spokesman like him in Parliament.”

He pointedly underlined, though, that contesting elections would not mean Sajjad was giving up on Kashmiri self-determination. “He has a well-formulated view on Kashmiri sovereignty which he has documented in detail and circulated. If he decides to contest, it will be a step in pursuance of the aims of Kashmiri aspiration,” the source said.

The People’s Conference leader has just returned to Kashmir after nearly two months in Pakistan, where he was visiting family. Lone is married to the daughter of Amanullah Khan of the Pakistani chapter of the JKLF; the couple have twin sons, who have been living with their mother in Rawalpindi for lack of entry visas to India.

More at:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090225/j ... 587518.jsp

Chellaram · Post by **Chellaram** » 25 Feb 2009 22:44

Pranay wrote:http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =101087530

Steve Coll's interview on NPR yesterday regarding Kashmir and India/Pakistan Non-Paper on a settlement ... Listen to the whole audio file ...

here's a link to the article that he wrote.

http://www.newamerica.net/publications/ ... nnel_11191

Mostly a rehash of the same stuff we've read a million times before, including all of the usual historical inaccuracies. and of course, not a single mention of the plight of the Kashmiri Pundits.

excerpts from the article revolving around the deal:

To outsiders, it has long seemed obvious that the Line of Control should be declared the international border between India and Pakistan--it’s been in place for almost forty years, and each country has built its own institutions behind it. Musharraf, however, made it clear from the start that this would be unacceptable; India was equally firm that it would never renegotiate its borders or the Line of Control. The way out of this impasse, Singh has said, was to “make borders irrelevant,” by allowing for the free movement of people and goods within an autonomous Kashmir region. For Pakistan, this formula might work if it included provisions for the protection--and potential enrichment, through free trade--of the people of Kashmir, in whose name Pakistan had carried on the conflict.

The most recent version of the nonpaper, drafted in early 2007, laid out several principles for a settlement, according to people who have seen the draft or have participated in the discussions about it. Kashmiris would be given special rights to move and trade freely on both sides of the Line of Control. Each of the former princely state’s distinct regions would receive a measure of autonomy-- details would be negotiated later. Providing that violence declined, each side would gradually withdraw its troops from the region. At some point, the Line of Control might be acknowledged by both governments as an international border. It is not clear how firm a commitment on a final border the negotiators were prepared to make, or how long it would all take; one person involved suggested a time line of about ten to fifteen years.

One of the most difficult issues involved a plan to establish a joint body, made up of local Kashmiri leaders, Indians, and Pakistanis, to oversee issues that affected populations on both sides of the Line of Control, such as water rights. Pakistan sought something close to shared governance, with the Kashmiris taking a leading role; India, fearing a loss of sovereignty, wanted much less power-sharing. The envoys wrestled intensively over what language to use to describe the scope of this new body; the last draft termed it a “joint mechanism.”

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 25 Feb 2009 22:47

How about CBFC (chai-biskoot-flatulence committee)?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Feb 2009 23:52

The odd thing is the Indian interlocutors felt they can communicate with Western reporters but never felt they have a duty to reprot to the people of India on whose behalf they are negotiating.

always the problem.