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sunny y
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby sunny y » 15 Dec 2009 16:19

sumshyam wrote:Ok...guyz here is a typical link....!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwpWRty6AVg

I am sorry to be off the topic...I could not resist posting it...!


That's really good video. I think he is one of the few people who actually beleives in asking genuine questions.

The stuff that he said about Israel's support to terrorists :evil:
I mean if it's true (which of course it is according to ATS chargesheet) it's very serious. What the hell the govt. is doing ?? We are infact rewarding them with contracts after contracts.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby Masaru » 15 Dec 2009 16:37

sunny y wrote:
That's really good video. I think he is one of the few people who actually 'beleives' in asking genuine questions.

The stuff that he said about Israel's support to terrorists :evil:
I mean if it's true (which of course it is according to ATS chargesheet) it's very serious. What the hell the govt. is doing ?? We are infact rewarding them with contracts after contracts.


Thoroughly OT but this is typical of the misinformation campaign that is hall mark of the group he belongs to. Has anybody verified what he claims is actually on the charge sheet (notwithstanding political motivation behind the whole affair) or whatever every 2bit politician mouths has to be taken as gospel truth?

Who is prompting/funding him to raise these 'genuine questions' ? KSA/Pak/Iran? Why no questions about KSA/Gulf funding
to sundry underworld and terror groups which have killed and destroyed properties orders of magnitude higher than the said incident? Perhaps that will be too uncomfortable for an ex-Nizam/Razakar to bear. Should A R Antulay's musings about 26/11 be also entertained as valid/genuine questions and 9/11 treated as YYY conspiracy as is claimed by many?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby RayC » 23 Dec 2009 11:54

brihaspati wrote:
Isn't that the primary reason that is being "pontificated upon" from certain quarters on the forum - that we must be ve-ry careful becaue we may hurt the feelings of those cute ickle non-extremist members from that "one religion" when we accuse them blanketly of being "extremists"? Even if the context or analysis is merely trying to find out the motivations for extremism that seem to be inherent, and not being given up, and being followed faithfully as required in the core texts of that religion - even now! Even if there are apparent connections to the attacks or targeting of India - to the theology itself?


Brihaspati ji. I stated an opinion on that thread and my opinion will not change subject to discussion, rhetoric or semantics and I do not expect to change your views. I will therefore not continue this pointless (to me) discussion even if you reply to this.

You make what is (to me) an interesting connection. You are saying (in effect) that because Indians are required to be sensitive to Indian minority sentiment on BRF, we must also show similar sentiment regarding minorities in Pakistan.

Sir you are a mature, erudite and knowledgeable man (I am presuming the man part, apologies if you are not one). I am sure you know what you can do with minorities in India or Pakistan. You must have your reasons for holding your views and I respect everyone's right to hold any views although I may clearly state my disagreement which might sometimes be vehement. I do object to it when you ask if I or others on this forum should follow what you might want to do. We are, as I said earlier, going to disagree on this issue.

I am sorry for having responded to a post from you.


Well said.

One wonders why some find it difficult to differentiate the subtlety of the issues and instead give their own interpretation to what is written by others and pass it off as the view held by the forum.

I would indeed be very surprised if any Indian would support Pakistan against Indian interests!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Sanku » 23 Dec 2009 19:10

shiv wrote:
B wrote:Isn't that the primary reason that is being "pontificated upon" from certain quarters on the forum - that we must be ve-ry careful becaue we may hurt the feelings of those cute ickle non-extremist members from that "one religion" when we accuse them blanketly of being "extremists"? Even if the context or analysis is merely trying to find out the motivations for extremism that seem to be inherent, and not being given up, and being followed faithfully as required in the core texts of that religion - even now! Even if there are apparent connections to the attacks or targeting of India - to the theology itself?


Brihaspati ji. I stated an opinion on that thread and my opinion will not change subject to discussion, rhetoric or semantics and I do not expect to change your views. I will therefore not continue this pointless (to me) discussion even if you reply to this.

.


Since I too agree that it is poster's prerogative to make a statement on topic while shirking from a discussion, as clearly mentioned at the outset of Shiv's reply post, I too wish to make some statement on the discussion under similar disclaimers

1) The main issue in the post, of equally applicable logical steps as elucidated below
B wrote:Logic should be applied clearly, equally and impartially. The absurd bias in applying logic only on one side and denying that very same logic in other cases which are parallel - is what I tried to draw attention to.


Was completely skipped in the response to the issue. I found that most disappointing coming from some one like Shiv who himself at one point of time been the illustrator of the concept of concepts of "selective application of logic -- cognitive dissonance" on the forum while dealing with issues directly highlighted in the above post.

2) I also found that original post even based on a cursory reading does not in anyway can be taken to mean what Shiv has interpreted it to mean in order to reply to it.

The issue was clearly in case of generalizations which are allowed and which are valid.

It would have been nice if Shiv would have been able to robustly explain the issue of apparent contradiction here instead of a op-ed post on a unrelated issue. I however do think that a pointed debate on the topic may go into no-go areas for a mil forum, in which case it would be best to state the real point (debate being outside forum ambit) and leave it at that.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 23 Dec 2009 23:22

Shiv ji and RayC,
although Shiv ji has drawn a curtain on this exchange, I think I should repeat and reclarify my position in the context of that feedback debate. And there I will rest my case and not bring it up unless revived again.

My position is that if stereotyping is allowed by some mindset, where a whole nation is attributed qualities of atrocious behaviour based on the foundational claims/theory/texts and similar behaviour/uttering/actions by a minuscule proportion of that very same nation - then why is the same mindset objecting when others stereotype a whole ideology/community by its theological claims/theory/texts and atrocious behaviour/uttering/actions by a minuscule protion of that very same community?

To this, the primary reasoning for justifying such logical inversion was primarily given as - that the second stereotyping was not relevant for the basic thrust of forum. But time and again, I have tried to show and brought up texts/quotes/observations from a wide variety of sources that the atrocious behaviour from the "suspect" nation was solidly connected to the theology. Moreover, the continued aggression on India could actually be motivated/maintained/justified using the very same theology. In that context, it does become a security issue and any insight into the theology/mindset of theologians/ and continued observation/analysis of the same remains very relevant for the forum.

It was not one individuals posting on the issue that was being interpreted by me as the general viewpoint of the forum. This was firmly connected to the intent expressed by one individual that he would see to it that the second type of stereotyping would be cleared from the forum - which means that it becomes the forum view.

Personally, I do not think I have ever generalized abuse or stereotyping of nations or communities, including that of "Pakis". I have found that the attacks on India sourced from TSP or organizations/groups supported by TSP within India, can very well be linked to the foundational theology of TSP. And I felt that continued exploration of the theological context of "Pakiness" is important for the future. This is why I have always clearly differentiated the target for elimination to be the theology and its theologians, and never a blanket destruction of the common followers of the religion. I look forward to a situation where the lands and people currently under occupation by GOTSP, can be integrated back into Bharat. I do think of them as wayward kin and family, who may need to be thrashed and subjected to tough love for the good of the world as well as for the family. We cannot blame someone for simply being born into Pakistan.

It is tactically wrong to force all of the supposed enemy into one single identity. We should distinguish "divisions" of class, property and social origins - even regions and subcommunities -and of leaders and followers - to isolate the semi-feudal elite rulers and their instrument of ideological control - the theologians, and their theologiacl networks of mosques/madrassahs/charitable organizations. Even a starting point could be the promise of land reforms and redistribution of land from the elite and semi-feudal lords to the landless and the marginal farmers.

Shiv ji, in particular my objection was to allowing of virulent stereotyping in one case, while using exactly the opposite argument to erase an important potential connection of theology/theologians relevant for India's security in the future - claiming that such blanket stereotyping was unacceptable on the forum. I have no personal quarrel with you.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 24 Dec 2009 04:03

Stan_Savljevic wisely wrote

brihaspati innocently wrote:
My position is that if stereotyping is allowed by some mindset, where a whole nation is attributed qualities of atrocious behaviour based on the foundational claims/theory/texts and similar behaviour/uttering/actions by a minuscule proportion of that very same nation - then why is the same mindset objecting when others stereotype a whole ideology/community by its theological claims/theory/texts and atrocious behaviour/uttering/actions by a minuscule protion of that very same community?


The people of the ideology that is being blamed form a good 13% of our population, not all are like the stereotypical jehadi even if many are, and it is not funny to create enemies out of the silent among the 13% of our population [just because they do not stand up and cuss the more violent among their lot] by just treating their religion as an excuse in contrast with their actions or proposed actions. And on one day it will be one ideology and on the next, it will be something else. So who is going to bell the cat that brands certain ideologies and religions as causes of harm in the world? By limiting it to pakistan, the problem is pin-pointed precisely more or less, but by expanding it to Islam, you are spreading it to a point where you can not only not unite "the rest" but also you are making a fundamental mistake of punishing a community for the crime of a few, an anathema in a democrazy where democrazy is really practiced instead of touted as a god-given gift. Very hard to figure out, I am perfectly sure.


Yes, very hard to figure out why the same logic of not uniting all "Pakistanis" behind their Jihadi "minority" by bashing them all by their nationality - is not acceptable! Why create enemies among their "silent" who do not stand up and cuss the more violent among their lot?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby BijuShet » 24 Dec 2009 04:33

brihaspati wrote:...
Yes, very hard to figure out why the same logic of not uniting all "Pakistanis" behind their Jihadi "minority" by bashing them all by their nationality - is not acceptable! Why create enemies among their "silent" who do not stand up and cuss the more violent among their lot?

I am sticking my neck here but I request a shot at this. In most countries, ideas and propoganda of fringe elements/groups are either ignored or mocked at by the majority. When it comes to Pakistan that is simply not true. The vernacular and english media puts forth enough material to convince all the nay sayers that almost all Pakis have an us versus Kufr worldview.

To illustrate let me recount a personal incident. I was in Europe in october 2001 i.e. immediately after Sep 11. A paki team mate employed in the european office (very white collar with an engg degree from a rated Paki Tech Institute and working for one of the Big three consulting firm) was trying to explain to me that the Taliban in Afghanistan was a misunderstood group. In his view they were being wrongly blamed for the ills of Afghan society and that they were reformers who were trying to bring order in a chaotic situation. He also did the customary highlighting of Kashmiri plight being the thorn in the bed of roses otherwise known as Indo-Pak relations. He wanted the big brothers sacrifice from India. I had been a BRFite for a long time and thus recognize Pakiness when presented with a specimen. I chose to avoid him and his views for the rest of my short time there. I did not want to fight him as it would have been a disaster for my team, my firm and the client who were innocent parties in this small indo-pak mushaira. The point of my story is that here was a guy who had a decent middle class upbringing (He was not a Rape and surely did not smell like one as that was one reason all fellow team-mates from 5 other countries avoided him like the swine flu.) This seemingly normal guy with an upbringing/education/career similar to mine could not understand the ills of jehadi terrorism and that too a month after sep 11 convinced me that Pakis are a special breed.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Prem » 24 Dec 2009 05:13

Jarita wrote:Patels view on big brother nonsense. Not exactly the same situation or pple buuuut

http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=fd ... tid=0.1&zw

It is relevant to quote Sardar Patel (28-8-1948), in reply to a similar demand by Mr. Naziruddin Ahmed, a member of the Constituent Assembly.


"New nation of India will not tolerate disruptive tendencies in any form…..Mr. Naziruddin Ahmed has said: 'We will lose the affection of the younger brother if we do not accept his amendment requiring reservations for the Muslims in India . I am prepared to lose it (the affection of the younger brother), because otherwise it will prove to be the death of the elder brother.….I appeal to you to forget the past. You have got what you wanted ( Pakistan ). And remember you are the people who are responsible for Pakistan and not those who live in Pakistan . You led the agitation. What is it you want now? We do not want the country to be divided again."

Nehru proved Patel otherwise and Nehruvians still eating up Indian roots .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 24 Dec 2009 09:23

BijuShet wrote
I am sticking my neck here but I request a shot at this. In most countries, ideas and propoganda of fringe elements/groups are either ignored or mocked at by the majority. When it comes to Pakistan that is simply not true. The vernacular and english media puts forth enough material to convince all the nay sayers that almost all Pakis have an us versus Kufr worldview.

To illustrate let me recount a personal incident. I was in Europe in october 2001 i.e. immediately after Sep 11. A paki team mate employed in the european office (very white collar with an engg degree from a rated Paki Tech Institute and working for one of the Big three consulting firm) was trying to explain to me that the Taliban in Afghanistan was a misunderstood group. In his view they were being wrongly blamed for the ills of Afghan society and that they were reformers who were trying to bring order in a chaotic situation. He also did the customary highlighting of Kashmiri plight being the thorn in the bed of roses otherwise known as Indo-Pak relations. He wanted the big brothers sacrifice from India. I had been a BRFite for a long time and thus recognize Pakiness when presented with a specimen. I chose to avoid him and his views for the rest of my short time there. I did not want to fight him as it would have been a disaster for my team, my firm and the client who were innocent parties in this small indo-pak mushaira. The point of my story is that here was a guy who had a decent middle class upbringing (He was not a Rape and surely did not smell like one as that was one reason all fellow team-mates from 5 other countries avoided him like the swine flu.) This seemingly normal guy with an upbringing/education/career similar to mine could not understand the ills of jehadi terrorism and that too a month after sep 11 convinced me that Pakis are a special breed.


I am still playing devils advocate partly.

So this is just one "Paki" who has been met by an Indian, and who manages to convince the Indian about the "Pakiness" of all "Pakis". Now is not that a very very small sample? I have met a significant number of Indian Muslims, and Ulema, who openly confessed to their dream of establishing Sharia in India, and who blame non-Muslims for the loss of "legitimate" power and glory of Muslims over all of the subcontinent. They had also defended openly the right to hold Jihad if it becomes necessary to "protect" Islam. In India, whenever the Ulemaic leadership growl about "Sharia" being compromised, there is no general outpouring of protests from the IM about the illogicality/illiberality of the demands of the Ulema.

Why so? Compared to TSP, there is not going to be any state-sponsored and protected backlash against such protests? Why is it we see however strong public mobilizations when its a case of chasing out Tasleema Nasreen or burning the book of Salman Rushdie?

So if I now start claiming based on the limited sample of IM that I have personally experienced, that the minuscule proportion of Muslims I have seen in India allows me to generalize their mindset to all IM in India - would I be wrong?

As for "similar liberal educational/economic" background, yet producing a virulent anti-India, pro-Taleban world-view - is nothing surprising. The educated elite of any nation, who has found reasonable socio-economic success and status - will reflect, in general, the world-view of the nations dominant elite and their imposed rashtryia philosophy. Take a representative sample of Indians with higher education and coming from liberal-upward-economic origins - the dominant trend will be that of the "centre-left" and p-sec.

If, those who have the choice of having a liberal education (IM children have legal rights to demand place in a Government run school instead of enlisting in a Madrassah), who have the choice of protesting the outlandish demands of the Ulema or fanatical Islamist preachers demanding someone's head because of his creations, without any fear of the rashtra stifling such protests - still choose to remain silent, why expect "liberal" outlook from those who are denied any alternative education/opinion building/exposure to alternative philosophies?

Each and every argument used to suppress and deny the role of the Islamist theology and its theologians in shaping the behaviour of Islamic communities, can be equally applied to suppress and deny the role of a nationhood which is hypothesized to be devoid and completely disconnected from Islamist theology but yet carries out each and every atrocity supported and called fro by that theology against "non-believers". Every criticism to trash such arguments in one case is also applicable to trash such arguments in the other.

If one case is ridiculous or dumb or asinine as argument, then the other is ridiculous or dumb or asinine as well.

By the way, the word "kufr" should perhaps be avoided to describe the target of hatred of a Paki! Because that word solidly equates the Paki with Islamic. I gained the impression that we have to toe the line that "Pakiness" has no connection with Islam.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2009 09:48

brihaspati wrote:By the way, the word "kufr" should perhaps be avoided to describe the target of hatred of a Paki! Because that word solidly equates the Paki with Islamic. I gained the impression that we have to toe the line that "Pakiness" has no connection with Islam.


You have gained a particular impression and therefore you suggest that everyone else must avoid using the word "kufr" (because of the impression you have gained). That is a self serving argument. Sir.


What was that again about ridiculous, dumb and asinine arguments?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 24 Dec 2009 10:00

Ah Shivji,
I did not say, "I am going to see to it that no one uses the word Kufr as antonym for Paki-Pakiness on this forum". I merely speculated that "perhaps" "it should be avoided". Logically, if "Pakiness" has nothing to do with "Islam", then the significant Islamic jargon of "Qufr" cannot be used to denote non-Pakiness.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Hari Seldon » 24 Dec 2009 10:03

IMO, nothing wrong with using 'kufr'. The word is used only because the phackees use it and it reflects and represents their worldview.

Also, serves to paint part of the theologically toxic stuff in all major religions ( :D ) with guilt by paki ass-ociation only.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby archan » 24 Dec 2009 10:07

boy, we yindians LOVE to be argumentative, don't we..
nothing like a good long debate on some words and some way of writing..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 24 Dec 2009 10:11

BijuShet ji,
apologies for inadvertently using your post to play "devil's advocate". I hope you understand that it was just "polemics" and nothing against your personal views. I merely tried to expose the parallels between two lines of thinking - where, however, one is indulged in freely and the other sought to be erased. Withdrawing now, so as not to derail the thread.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby disha » 24 Dec 2009 10:50

brihaspati wrote:
So this is just one "Paki" who has been met by an Indian, and who manages to convince the Indian about the "Pakiness" of all "Pakis". Now is not that a very very small sample?


Not to worry, I have met a big enough sample size to know a paki exhibiting pakiness from several feet away. Some of them do not and if you dig deeper more often then not they are not a pakjabi. It remains to see that those minority have really seen the "light" truly or not.

I have met a significant number of Indian Muslims, and Ulema, who openly confessed to their dream of establishing Sharia in India, and who blame non-Muslims for the loss of "legitimate" power and glory of Muslims over all of the subcontinent.


Ah and for each of those you will also see APJ Kalam or say Abdul Hamid (PVC) or Md. Usman (MVC) or to not look so high up, and just look a little ahead into our own Bollywood with all the Khanettes and Bimbettes spouting everything other than Sharia, it gives a pause. Of course you will always find the fringe elements everywhere, the issue here is that the mainstream in TSP is similar to fringe element here.


If one case is ridiculous or dumb or asinine as argument, then the other is ridiculous or dumb or asinine as well.


The above is now a cliche. We can argue around it till hell freezes over.

By the way, the word "kufr" should perhaps be avoided to describe the target of hatred of a Paki! Because that word solidly equates the Paki with Islamic. I gained the impression that we have to toe the line that "Pakiness" has no connection with Islam.


"Pakiness" has as much connection to Islam in that Islam is subverted to a narrow goal by the Pakis and that is a major indication of Pakiness. Pakis need to be exposed what they are - religious demagogues.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 24 Dec 2009 11:15

disha wrote
Not to worry, I have met a big enough sample size to know a paki exhibiting pakiness from several feet away. Some of them do not and if you dig deeper more often then not they are not a pakjabi. It remains to see that those minority have really seen the "light" truly or not.


We can trade info about sample sizes. And yes, in spite of our samples sizes, there will still be a vast number who we will never sample. Since it is claimed that "silence" towards "violent" is not any indication of their real intent and we must give them the benefit of doubt - why does it not extend to "Pakis"?

Ah and for each of those you will also see APJ Kalam or say Abdul Hamid (PVC) or Md. Usman (MVC) or to not look so high up, and just look a little ahead into our own Bollywood with all the Khanettes and Bimbettes spouting everything other than Sharia, it gives a pause. Of course you will always find the fringe elements everywhere, the issue here is that the mainstream in TSP is similar to fringe element here.


That gives 3+ lets say around a dozen from Bollywood? I can almost immediately start counting in my head towards more than a hundred key ones, and faces I still remember around them, and that too coming from a wide cross section of that community. Moreover the real point of debate was about denying any role of theology in the atrocious behaviour and transfering all of that to a certain "nationhood".


The above is now a cliche. We can argue around it till hell freezes over.

You mean the qualifiers I used or the parallels between the two cases! If its a cliche, then they must already be well-established.


"Pakiness" has as much connection to Islam in that Islam is subverted to a narrow goal by the Pakis and that is a major indication of Pakiness. Pakis need to be exposed what they are - religious demagogues.


This actually is interesting. In order to subvert an ideology, you have to basically replace bits and pieces of that ideology in such a way that the result is an opposite of the original. Can you please point out which of the wider "goals" of the theology the Pakis have "subverted" to a narrow "goal"? You are convinced and be able to prove where exactly and how the "Pakis" have deviated from the "true" doctrine of the theology?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Masaru » 24 Dec 2009 11:42

disha wrote:Ah and for each of those you will also see APJ Kalam or say Abdul Hamid (PVC) or Md. Usman (MVC) or to not look so high up, and just look a little ahead into our own Bollywood with all the Khanettes and Bimbettes spouting everything other than Sharia, it gives a pause. Of course you will always find the fringe elements everywhere, the issue here is that the mainstream in TSP is similar to fringe element here.


Really! I would request you to peruse the interviews that the 'Khanettes' gave after 26/11. One example is here, and lot more floating around. No out right condemnation, but deception and misinformation. Not to mention the whole issue of underworld, nexus with D-company and sundry gulf financiers of questionable antecedent. Unless one is wearing ideological blinkers the subliminal advertisements that b-wood puts out regularly betrays the sympathy of the 'kahnettes' and 'bimbettes' and lately is rearing its ugly head in the Rahul Bhatt connections. There are regular productions based on the imagined victim hood complex (the latest one probably running now to packed houses) and the glory of the Mughal/Afghan rulers but none at all which remotely portray the negative aspects and how the rest of the populace suffered as a result of it. In light of all this trying to sell the 'Khanettes' and B-wood brigade as model citizens is propoganda straight out of the p-sec book.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby rkirankr » 24 Dec 2009 11:56

^ The Khanets and bimbetes are bad examples. In fact taking up the example of any bollywood as a representative of some entity in society is a very bad example except a few exceptions. With connections to Dawood etc, I would never trust them. Money and fame is what drives them. Nothing else.
Most probably would not understand a national issue. Some bollywood babe asked why election cannot be postponed to make way for IPL when the security cover of IPL during election 2009 was an issue. I do not know who it is :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby nithish » 24 Dec 2009 18:41

archan wrote:
nithish wrote:posted in full

Question is, why?


i thought the article summarised the situation in Pak well, esp w.r.t to why they beg for composite dialogue and all but of course, it was a long article - my apologies..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Rudradev » 24 Dec 2009 20:10

Prem wrote:
Jarita wrote:Patels view on big brother nonsense. Not exactly the same situation or pple buuuut

http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=fd ... tid=0.1&zw

It is relevant to quote Sardar Patel (28-8-1948), in reply to a similar demand by Mr. Naziruddin Ahmed, a member of the Constituent Assembly.


"New nation of India will not tolerate disruptive tendencies in any form…..Mr. Naziruddin Ahmed has said: 'We will lose the affection of the younger brother if we do not accept his amendment requiring reservations for the Muslims in India . I am prepared to lose it (the affection of the younger brother), because otherwise it will prove to be the death of the elder brother.….I appeal to you to forget the past. You have got what you wanted ( Pakistan ). And remember you are the people who are responsible for Pakistan and not those who live in Pakistan . You led the agitation. What is it you want now? We do not want the country to be divided again."

Nehru proved Patel otherwise and Nehruvians still eating up Indian roots .


Oh, its much worse than "eating up Indian roots". The poison seeds of Islamic appeasement sowed by Nehru, have grown to such monstrous proportions that the good Dr. Manmohan Singh would like to turn India herself into an Islamic Supremacist state where Muslims are privileged above all others.

Remember this?

http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullst ... wsid=77972

'Muslims must have first claim on resources'

Press Trust of India
Posted online: Saturday, December 09, 2006 at 1139 hours IST
Updated: Saturday, December 09, 2006 at 1608 hours IST

New Delhi, December 9: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said plans for minorities, particularly Muslims, must have the ‘first claim’ on resources so that benefits of development reach them equitably


Because the Italian National Congress definition of "equitable" means that all Indians are equal, but Muslims are more equal than others.

At the hands of the Sekoolarists India will make Pakistan redundant! Hindus, as usual, will be paying the price. This time it will be in what they thought was their own country.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Manny » 24 Dec 2009 20:37

*** post deleted, user warned ***

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby negi » 24 Dec 2009 21:09

***edited***

What is the basis for such a conclusion ? from where do we manage to churn up such theories ? :-?
Last edited by archan on 24 Dec 2009 21:20, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: deleted offensive quote

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Hari Seldon » 24 Dec 2009 21:21

[quote="negi"]***deleted ***

I agree. Such a line of argument is a self-goal in the classic sense.

To the extent that my fellow Yindians are willing to believe that people are eligible to enter heaven based on their good character and good works (i.e. good karma) and not expressly because of toto belief in and adherence to a particular book, gawd or sect, there is zero reason to believe we cannot all live in peace.

The Pakis among us are those who do not believe in the above. IMHO. Dunno how they can be counted though.
Last edited by archan on 24 Dec 2009 22:03, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: there.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Manny » 24 Dec 2009 22:07

archan,

I apologize if my post came out the way it did. I meant to say "Some" not "most". Thge point I was trying to make seems to have been lost in that detail "good portion". But never the less I agree with you that anyone who says most Indian Muslims are disloyal is not only untrue, it should be unacceptable here.

Manny

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby BijuShet » 24 Dec 2009 22:34

brihaspati wrote:BijuShet ji,
apologies for inadvertently using your post to play "devil's advocate". I hope you understand that it was just "polemics" and nothing against your personal views. I merely tried to expose the parallels between two lines of thinking - where, however, one is indulged in freely and the other sought to be erased. Withdrawing now, so as not to derail the thread.


OT Post alert !!!
Brihaspatiji please check my response in Nukkad page 54 to this post.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby abhijitm » 24 Dec 2009 23:27

BijuShet wrote:
brihaspati wrote:...
Yes, very hard to figure out why the same logic of not uniting all "Pakistanis" behind their Jihadi "minority" by bashing them all by their nationality - is not acceptable! Why create enemies among their "silent" who do not stand up and cuss the more violent among their lot?

I was in Europe in october 2001 i.e. immediately after Sep 11. A paki team mate employed in the european office (very white collar with an engg degree from a rated Paki Tech Institute and working for one of the Big three consulting firm) was trying to explain to me that the Taliban in Afghanistan was a misunderstood group. In his view they were being wrongly blamed for the ills of Afghan society and that they were reformers who were trying to bring order in a chaotic situation.


This reminds me something worrying. Not very long ago I knew an indian white collar muslim colleague who had the exact same view about the Taliban! He also used to work for some charitable muslim organization and he was completely brain-washed. He even tried to convince me that it is not pakistan who is employing militancy in Kashmir!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby RamaY » 25 Dec 2009 00:34

abhijitm wrote:This reminds me something worrying. Not very long ago I knew an indian white collar muslim colleague who had the exact same view about the Taliban! He also used to work for some charitable muslim organization and he was completely brain-washed. He even tried to convince me that it is not pakistan who is employing militancy in Kashmir!


I used to have a IM team member whose life ambition was to live in taliban-afghanistan. I used to control the remaining 40 person team to make sure that they are not insensitive towards his beliefs.

One fineday he wanted to convert me, as it was his obligation to lead the ignorant me into the true path. I tried to reason with him, saying that one can believe in whatever works for him/her. But he pushed me to the corner and I told him that my religion teaches me that "I am God" (Aham Brahmasmi) and he should consider doing ...

I came across another IM family who are well settled across the globe. They justified the racial profiling against one of their family members by Arab-sheks in KSA, yet :(( :(( :(( against the immoral trends in Massaland. I said what I felt like saying and let them contemplate on my words.

At the end of the day, the weak minded get influenced by this nonsense, and strong (or too narrow to have any gray-matter :mrgreen: ) minded will be labelled yindoo-talibannies. Hey, after all said and done, life is not fair :P

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby harbans » 25 Dec 2009 04:09

I agree with Archan ji, that it's not appropriate to dish any persons or faith itself. However no core doctrine must be above introspection, analysis and criticism. The moment we do that (make doctrine non subject to criticism), we become totalitarian or Dhimmi to a totalitarian thought in a major sense and way. All Nazi's were not bad. Oscar Schindler a Nazi saved many lives, many members of the Nazi party in the German Army plotted against Nazi leadership. Germany survived and grew because the doctrine of facism was criticized and fought hard against. Pakistan is representative of a doctrine that is divisive, hateful, scheming, devious, cunning. How one refers to that doctrine certainly needs refining. Pakistan, AQ, Taliban swear by a particular doctrine rooted in it's hatred for the Kufr. Without any critical analysis of that doctrine, everything is meaningless. India itself is defined by a core doctrine, enshrined in the constitution. The constitution itself or the doctrine itself is amended according to the collective conscience and will expressed by the majority that comes about as a result of criticism and debate. If we considered the constitution so sacrosanct as not worthy of debate or criticism we would live in unnatural circumstances and so would the major democracies. Just food for thought...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Dec 2009 04:12

RamaY wrote:One fineday he wanted to convert me, as it was his obligation to lead the ignorant me into the true path. I tried to reason with him, saying that one can believe in whatever works for him/her. But he pushed me to the corner and I told him that my religion teaches me that "I am God" (Aham Brahmasmi) and he should consider doing ...


Bernard Lewis translation from Arabic, in Vol II of Islam - from the Prophet Muhammad to the Capture of Constantinople:

Humor
Some Anecdotes (9th century)

A man of the Qadari School was traveling in the company of a Magian. The Qadari asked him, "Why don't you become a Muslim, you Magian?" "When God wills it," replied the Magian. "God has already willed it," said the Qadari, "but the devil won't let you." "I am with the stronger, " said the Magian.


PS: the point being that maybe this can be defused with humor.

and this one I must always quote:

From a Thirteenth Century Persian Joke Book

Sultan Mahmud (of Ghazni) was attending a sermon in the Mosque. Talhak went there after him. When he arrived, the preacher stood up and said that if anyone had committed pederasty, then on the Day of Judgment the youth whom he had abused would be placed on his neck, and he would have to carry him across the Bridge of Doom. Sultan Mahmud wept. Talhak said, "O Sultan, do not weep but be of good cheer. On that day you won't have to go on foot either."

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby hasmukh » 25 Dec 2009 07:57

What about freedom of expression , Banning opinion or person should not be the solution. I hope that day doesn't comes when everyone has to sign declaration mentioning that person loves Islam, Jihad , zakat etc in order to join with you guys and hope the name remains bharat rakshak and not ISLAM RAKSHAK, and about most vs minor loyalty issues I hope everyone remembers that Pakistan was created by the nuisance minority and with the population of porkistan tripling in next 50 years , Bharat does not needs dreamy rakshaks. Hindus have lost more land , more people than any other religion in last 150 years and history will kick in if reality is avoided.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Jarita » 25 Dec 2009 08:14

^^^ Back to pussyfooting around real issue

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby BijuShet » 25 Dec 2009 08:16

Jarita wrote:^^^ Back to pussyfooting around real issue

Not sure if this one was addressed to me. will respond when you clarify.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby shiv » 25 Dec 2009 08:20

hasmukh wrote:Hindus have lost more land , more people than any other religion in last 150 years and history will kick in if reality is avoided.


Hindus could be losers no? Actually if you look at the statements that are made by non Hindu religious fundamentalists they are perfectly correct. Their religions clearly state that beliefs like Hinduism are wrong and that their God will defeat unbelievers. It is only Hindu cognitive dissonance that makes us deny this truth. And you have stated the truth yourself no? I quote:

Hindus have lost more land , more people than any other religion in last 150 years


Better to join the winners no? I know which side of my bread is buttered. In fact this post and others will be deleted which will prove that you are 400% right. Hindus are losing ground on this forum also. But Hindus are incapable of creating a forum and holding control - they gradually allow dhimmis and secularists to take control and then history kicks in. No?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Jarita » 25 Dec 2009 08:44

BijuShet wrote:
Jarita wrote:^^^ Back to pussyfooting around real issue

Not sure if this one was addressed to me. will respond when you clarify.



Not you but folks in general.
I think the India media, education system and intellectuals have put the fear of the words Hindu Fundamentalist into our psyche. Any mention of certain truths will automatically lead to association with these words and automatic blacklisting.
It is extremely tiresome to have Abdul Kalams name thrown around everytime someone mentions the truth of Islamic Jihad in India and potential/further vivisection of the country. Abdul Kalam is who he is because he has incorporated Hindu stream of thought in his psyche. This is an indiv who was educated by very religious Tamil Iyers and is inspired by them. He reads Gita everyday, plays sitar, has read and practices vedas, is a vegetarian and understands vedas and upanishads. Had he not been of such high stature, there would be a dozen fatwas on him. Plenty of Indian Muslims believe that he is not a muslim at all.

Coming from a family that is victim of multiple partitions and with relations from Kashmir, I have a mortal fear and realization that this will happen again and again unless we wake up and stop pussyfooting around the issue.
We are unable to distinguish between individuals and ideology. Of course people can be fantastic but a poisonous ideology can change anything.
The building I was in while growing up has 40% pple of a particular ideology. Have a lot of friends. Yet, friday evenings were not fun times. There have been too many aggressive attempts as Da'wah esp with Zakir Naik on the scene. I have seen many many glimpses of dangerous stuff that will boil over if higher majority is reached in that region (why would someone kill a goat every year on the floor of a decent middle class building - this is just an example). Many discussions are often grievances and criticisms of Indian government. Women have started wearing Arabic style Hijab. And yes, we do hear firecrackers if Pakistan wins. Many have spouses from Pakistan. They don't abandon their beliefs when they come over.
On that note, I went to a catholic school. For all the attempts at conversion, I never felt threatened. Have also lived in Punjab during the insurgency (never felth threatened).
I am using these personal examples to illustrate a point. Why is the only Muslim majority state in India on the verge of seccession and where an ethnic genocide has taken place. No one wants to address the 800 pound gorilla in the room and we will really suffer for it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby hasmukh » 25 Dec 2009 08:49

India has more muslim citizens than pakistan because "hum panch , hamarey pachees" concept and read my post again I have said minor nuisance minority is more than enough to get whatever it wants, and with case of Islam , you can go and do simple experiment, go to any chaiwalla in muslim mohalla and talk about yehudi, sept 11, modi,yumerica with people around or read muslim press and you can get bit of enlightment or else "read babarvani phir gayee" by shri guru nank dev ji and tell me how it is different from description of attacks on mumbai or give a visit to kashi vishwanath mandir or else keep reciting secular mantra like parrot trained by maino "durbari" servants.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby shiv » 25 Dec 2009 09:35

hasmukh wrote:India has more muslim citizens than pakistan because "hum panch , hamarey pachees" concept and read my post again I have said minor nuisance minority is more than enough to get whatever it wants,


You seem to be against Pakistan. But Pakistan eliminated its minorities. Hindus are not doing that no? They are allowing hum paanch hamarey pachees to occur no? Pakistan has done better. In other words Pakistanis are correct in saying that they are better. If Pakistanis are correct in getting rid of their minorities and in saying that they are better it means that they are telling the plain and simple truth when they say that Islam is a superior religion and Muslims are superior people. You are just jealous that is all. Unless India becomes like Pakistan, Hindus cannot regain what is theirs. But since Pakistan is better, they will win in the end.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby derkonig » 25 Dec 2009 11:08

^^^^
I believe its time. How much longer will BR try to brush the feelings of the posters under the carpet, the feelings that are evident in the posts above? It hurts when people cannot speak the truth. It is time BR lives up to its name. Stand up & be counted as a defender of Bharat and not be counted as an apologist for evil. It is bad enough to have sekoolaarism shoved in our faces everyday, but it really hurts people when they cannot speak the truth especially at a forum with a name like BR.

The posts above are not rants or whines, these are enlightened opinions and its a crime to diss such opinions. I dare say these posters have seen the truth and that in itself is no mean achievement for any Indian given that every attempt is made to teach them lies & distorted reality right from the cradle to the pyre. Therefore, I humbly request the powers that be to not stifle the opinions of the kind being expressed above.
Last edited by derkonig on 25 Dec 2009 11:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby sum » 25 Dec 2009 17:49

Pretending that all is merry & bright with the IM community will not help at all. There has been a rapid radicalization of the IM in the last decade & visible signs of their desire to link up with the global Ummah. Right after 26/11, you only had to go to Delhi's Jama Masjid area to catch numerous public meetings that had community 'leaders' making Jahil Hamid inspired speeches which would easily make it to the 'Hall of Fame' of the benis threads.

Sorry OT but 1 post on this:
Absolutely. It doesn't even require a PhD type study to see this.

Any casual visit to any IM "ghetto" in any city, reading the posters there, talking with a few random folks there and better still visiting "educated" IM areas like costal Karnataka and North Kerala will change any non-IM's viewpoint.

Conclusion: Things on IM front are not as hunky dory as BR would want to have

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby shiv » 25 Dec 2009 19:14

sum wrote:Conclusion: Things on IM front are not as hunky dory as BR would want to have


Correct. But things are not as hunky dory on the rest of India front either. One needs to live in India along with these traitorous Pakistani-brain Muslims living among us in India to see that these Muslim traitors and us nationalist bhoomi putra patriots are all getting screwed by the same bunch of people and things in India.

You spend some years living continuously in India without moving off to western wonderland and realise that even Islam is not going to get you a good life, and certainly not belonging to any other religion. But if you have the right birth and the right connections your life is made.

This fact seems to escape many people who live part time or full time in wonderland instead of the shit pit that India actually is for 80% of Indians. Hence the sekoolarism of BR, because shit is fully secular. But cognitive dissonance does not want us RAPE equivalent Indians to admit that India is actually a shit pit in terms of life for 80% of Indians. Don't let NDTV, Zee and Star fool you into thinking that India is wonderland. Just like RAPE we insist that all is hunky dory in India and that these bloody Mohammad worshipping Mooslims are the biggest threat. That is cloud cuckoo land.

Indian Muslims may be a problem community but the threat they represent is hardly the biggest or the most severe. Allah may try his best to be the biggest threat but he just can't compete with what India throws back at him and at everyone else. It's just one more problem - one more fracture in a body full of crushed bones. No water No food. No money. No health. No justice. No education. No opportunity. No nothing for 600 to 700 million Indians - of whom 300 million are children and suddenly Allah is worshipped here as the biggest threat. Allah is a pipsqueak as problems go.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Dipanker » 25 Dec 2009 20:05

ADMINS:

Could you move all the IM related OT posts to a seperate thread (including this one!) ? IMO they don't belong in this thread. Thanks!


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