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shiv
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Jan 2012 08:03

wanderer wrote:I am a lot of things my friend, not a coward. 8)

I can see that this is what you believe. You did say others were cowards and I indicated that you believed you were not one. Thank you for validating that
wanderer wrote: I hope you are not a sample of general ignorance on this board. We already have that with our leaders. No wonder our nation is in strategic tatters. We have olus like you who are busy critiquing people who attempt to have a discussion.


I can empathise with that. I also hope that I am not a sample of the general ignorance on this board. If you recall - I did credit you with an astounding ability to recognise cowardice and unsmart-ness in everyone but yourself. Welcome to BRF.

I can see that you are a patriotic Indian of whom there are many on this board. They are all able to see cowardice and lack of spine among other Indians and all imagine that other Indians have not read Sun Tzu or figured out the Chinese mindset. They all think they are the first to point this out on here as if it is the latest information about Indians to be posted to edify everyone on the China Military Watch thread.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_22277 » 07 Jan 2012 08:49

shiv wrote:
wanderer wrote:I am a lot of things my friend, not a coward. 8)

I can see that this is what you believe. You did say others were cowards and I indicated that you believed you were not one. Thank you for validating that
wanderer wrote: I hope you are not a sample of general ignorance on this board. We already have that with our leaders. No wonder our nation is in strategic tatters. We have olus like you who are busy critiquing people who attempt to have a discussion.


I can empathise with that. I also hope that I am not a sample of the general ignorance on this board. If you recall - I did credit you with an astounding ability to recognise cowardice and unsmart-ness in everyone but yourself. Welcome to BRF.

I can see that you are a patriotic Indian of whom there are many on this board. They are all able to see cowardice and lack of spine among other Indians and all imagine that other Indians have not read Sun Tzu or figured out the Chinese mindset. They all think they are the first to point this out on here as if it is the latest information about Indians to be posted to edify everyone on the China Military Watch thread.



you sir are an idiot. Actually a buffoon. I never claimed to be a visionary, scholar or historian. Merely someone who is relatively well read. I never stated I was the only one to read the chinese mindset (though I may be uniquely qualified to offer an opinion as I have spent some time in the orient and north america). I simply stated what is obvious. What I was hoping that someone on this board may be able to offer insight as to why our government/leadership follows this particular course, and not the obvious course. I am sure there is a reasonable explanation :shock:
One that obviosuly escapes me hence why i choose to post my question.

Its a message board. I am able to offer an opinion. You my friend definitely fall in the category of desis who talk out of their "asses" and try to act smug under the curtains of the cyber world. Let em guess you have a strong inferiority complex and actling like a "smug jackass" in the cyber-realm makes you feel superior? :eek:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_22277 » 07 Jan 2012 08:51

Prithwiraj wrote:
wanderer wrote:your a regular cartoon are'nt you? Do you know who I am, what I do or anything about me? Yet you choose to judge me because I voiced a comment. A well known comment about indians' lack of a backbone. Tu aadmi hai ya pajama?

I am a lot of things my friend, not a coward.

You displayed another typical "bharati" trait of assuming the other person to have the same weaknesses oneself posesses.

And since we are discussing the indian mindset. Not always did we have such a mindset. It is a pity our schools do not teach the youth the history of Chandargupta maurya or the statecraft of Chankaya. This present attitude is a more recent phenomena of the gandhi mentality of turning the other cheekh. Unfortunately the congress government has adopted this mindset in abundance to suit their short-sightedness.

I came on this board to have an intelligent discussion. I hope you are not a sample of general ignorance on this board. We already have that with our leaders. No wonder our nation is in strategic tatters. We have olus like you who are busy critiquing people who attempt to have a discussion.


Your frustration is not uncommon.. sadly BRF is not what it used to be and has become extremely polarizing with limited individuals having abundance respect and apparent influence and rest of the junta are matter of laugh, joke and bullying... but this is not the right thread to discuss that


thank you prithviraj for a normal response.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Ramesh » 07 Jan 2012 09:00

Dear wanderer ji,
The same Sun Tzu says,
appear to be weak if strong;
& appear to be strong if weak.
So, my dear friend china tries to appear strong & we appear to be weak. What does that mean?
Or is it that we are weak yet want to be considered strong so going by sun tzu -- appear to be weak.
Its all maya.
And for all those who say that we don't have a strong foreign policy:-
Sometimes not to have a policy is also a policy. It allows freedom to act & doesnot bind you to a set of response.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Jan 2012 09:05

wanderer wrote:

you sir are an idiot. Actually a buffoon. I never claimed to be a visionary, scholar or historian. Merely someone who is relatively well read. I never stated I was the only one to read the chinese mindset (though I may be uniquely qualified to offer an opinion as I have spent some time in the orient and north america).


Orient and North America? My that should give you a lot of insight. Of course I am from India and I don't know if that is orient or what the orientation of India is. But a lot of people come to this board to say Indian leaders are spineless and that the Chinese follow Sun Tzu. That I have read before despite being an idiot and a buffoon.


wanderer wrote: I simply stated what is obvious.


What is obvious?



wanderer wrote:What I was hoping that someone on this board may be able to offer insight as to why our government/leadership follows this particular course, and not the obvious course. I am sure there is a reasonable explanation :shock:
One that obviosuly escapes me hence why i choose to post my question.


I disagree with your contention of the spinelessness of Indians.

wanderer wrote:Its a message board. I am able to offer an opinion. You my friend definitely fall in the category of desis who talk out of their "asses" and try to act smug under the curtains of the cyber world. Let em guess you have a strong inferiority complex and actling like a "smug jackass" in the cyber-realm makes you feel superior? :eek:

Hey maybe I do have an inferiority complex. But you seem to have the amazing ability to diagnose inferiority in others. You have figured out that Indian are spineless. You have figured out that I have an inferiority complex. That is what makes you so smart and superior, apart from you knowledge of North America and orient. Why should you feel upset if I point that out?
Last edited by shiv on 07 Jan 2012 09:09, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_22277 » 07 Jan 2012 09:23

shiv wrote:
wanderer wrote:

you sir are an idiot. Actually a buffoon. I never claimed to be a visionary, scholar or historian. Merely someone who is relatively well read. I never stated I was the only one to read the chinese mindset (though I may be uniquely qualified to offer an opinion as I have spent some time in the orient and north america).


Orient and North America? My that should give you a lot of insight. Of course I am from India and I don't know if that is orient or what the orientation of India is. But a lot of people come to this board to say Indian leaders are spineless and that the Chinese follow Sun Tzu. That I have read before despite being an idiot and a buffoon.


wanderer wrote: I simply stated what is obvious.


What is obvious?



wanderer wrote:What I was hoping that someone on this board may be able to offer insight as to why our government/leadership follows this particular course, and not the obvious course. I am sure there is a reasonable explanation :shock:
One that obviosuly escapes me hence why i choose to post my question.


I disagree with your contention of the spinelessness of Indians.

wanderer wrote:Its a message board. I am able to offer an opinion. You my friend definitely fall in the category of desis who talk out of their "asses" and try to act smug under the curtains of the cyber world. Let em guess you have a strong inferiority complex and actling like a "smug jackass" in the cyber-realm makes you feel superior? :eek:

Hey maybe I do have an inferiority complex. But you seem to have the amazing ability to diagnose inferiority in others. You have figured out that Indian are spineless. You have figured out that I have an inferiority complex. That is what makes you so smart and superior, apart from you knowledge of North America and orient. Why should you feel upset if I point that out?


My friend. I am an indian, incase you are mistaken. And the "spinelieness" of indians politically is a well known fact. Our dealings with china is a prime example or even pakistan is a prime example. As an indian, I have the right to question my own people or our government's percieved inability.
I never called my self superior, as I stated some very obvious facts and was hoping someone on this board with far more insider-knowledge of the indian decision making then myself could offer some insight.
So when I was complaining about the spineliness of indians, I was refering to our political circle. Parlimentary bombings, 26/11, China dictating that our ministers not meet the dalai lama etc etc are prime examples of a perceieved "indian" weekness. Go far back as 1962 when the chinese overran our territories. We had a far superior airforce yet we choose not to utilize out of fear of chinese retaliation and limited the scope of war. Is that cowardliness, lack of strategic foresight? I shall leave upto you.

I called you a idiot and buffoon out of your rather condenscending initial response. Since unlike you, not only have i been brought up India but spent some time abroad, allow me to educate you on how we indians are unfortunately percieved. You conveniently cry foul after initially crying wolf.
I am sure there are explanations to many of my questions and I love a good debate. Lets have a friendly and intellectual debate

Hence why I am on this board to debate and expland my knowledge and get alternative views/perspectives.
You want to take things personal and act hostile, then I shall respond in kind. Unlike our present leadership or yourself, I have a backbone that is not limited to the cyber world.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_22277 » 07 Jan 2012 09:29

Ramesh wrote:Dear wanderer ji,
The same Sun Tzu says,
appear to be weak if strong;
& appear to be strong if weak.
So, my dear friend china tries to appear strong & we appear to be weak. What does that mean?
Or is it that we are weak yet want to be considered strong so going by sun tzu -- appear to be weak.
Its all maya.
And for all those who say that we don't have a strong foreign policy:-
Sometimes not to have a policy is also a policy. It allows freedom to act & doesnot bind you to a set of response.


Unfortunately ramesh, the discussions i have had with people i know within the diplomatic circles make me believe otherwise. But I hope they are wrong. Prime example of our lack of long-term planning is the fact that the indian army has not inducted new artillery since the 1980's.

what is your opinion of india retaliating by following a similar course with Tibet? Start issuing or denying visas and calling it a disputed territory? Or is this too bold a course for our present timid leadership to follow?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20067 » 07 Jan 2012 13:20

wanderer wrote:
Ramesh wrote:Dear wanderer ji,
The same Sun Tzu says,
appear to be weak if strong;
& appear to be strong if weak.
So, my dear friend china tries to appear strong & we appear to be weak. What does that mean?
Or is it that we are weak yet want to be considered strong so going by sun tzu -- appear to be weak.
Its all maya.
And for all those who say that we don't have a strong foreign policy:-
Sometimes not to have a policy is also a policy. It allows freedom to act & doesnot bind you to a set of response.


Unfortunately ramesh, the discussions i have had with people i know within the diplomatic circles make me believe otherwise. But I hope they are wrong. Prime example of our lack of long-term planning is the fact that the indian army has not inducted new artillery since the 1980's.

what is your opinion of india retaliating by following a similar course with Tibet? Start issuing or denying visas and calling it a disputed territory? Or is this too bold a course for our present timid leadership to follow?


Chinese leadership has the luxury of not being bothered by domestic politics .. so they have a relatively focused international agenda.. hamare.. leadership ko.. Anna Hazare... .. Mamta Banerjee ... in sab se fuskara mile tab na...

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20067 » 07 Jan 2012 13:40

rajrang wrote:
wanderer wrote:
what is your opinion of india retaliating by following a similar course with Tibet? Start issuing or denying visas and calling it a disputed territory? Or is this too bold a course for our present timid leadership to follow?


Other bold actions that comes to mind would include selling a wide range of military equipment including Agni missiles and nuclear weapons technology to Vietnam, Phillipines, Taiwan etc. I wonder if things would have been different if we had a tough leader like Mrs. Gandhi.

By the way your initial comment " Show them (China) some spine and they will take a step back" did not work during 1962. Nehru tried to show some spine but got worsted. India's military relative weakness was probably one reason for that. However, your suggestion worked in 1967 during the confrontation with China in Sikkim. Mrs. Gandhi was the PM then!



neither country has any reason to go for a full blown war for obvious reasons like derailing the economic boom and growth. Its like playing into the hand of west... killing two birds with no bullet... our media project China as a competitor as they are perennially into a quasi cricket mode.. trying to find the next Pakistan... we as a country has lost the leverage if any at all of conducting retaliatory military strike against Pakistan due to nuclear threat.. as far as China's aggression is concerned.. current govt. is ok with cancelling trips and pushing the news to media.. ... they follow the philosophy of "if it ain't broke.. don't fix it..."

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Jan 2012 14:52

wanderer wrote:China dictating that our ministers not meet the dalai lama etc etc are prime examples of a perceieved "indian" weekness. Go far back as 1962 when the chinese overran our territories. We had a far superior airforce yet we choose not to utilize out of fear of chinese retaliation and limited the scope of war. Is that cowardliness, lack of strategic foresight? I shall leave upto you.

I called you a idiot and buffoon out of your rather condenscending initial response. Since unlike you, not only have i been brought up India but spent some time abroad, allow me to educate you on how we indians are unfortunately percieved.


Ah thanks for making that clear. You are saying that India is perceived as weak. Other people look at Indians and say "Indians are weak". So you immediately and unquestioningly agree with people who tell you that and feel that Indian politicians are responsible.

So you feel that if Indians showed some spine they would be perceived as strong. Have I got that right?

If that is right, may I ask, why do you think Indians need to be perceived as strong by others? Why does it bother you that others feel Indians are weak? This is something that I have not understood.

So what if others say Indians are weak? You are not weak. You said so yourself. They should be able to look at you and understand that Indians are not weak. Why do you say that you are yourself not a coward, but that Indians show cowardliness? You are Indian no? How can Indians be cowards if you are bold?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20067 » 07 Jan 2012 15:01

shiv wrote:
wanderer wrote:China dictating that our ministers not meet the dalai lama etc etc are prime examples of a perceieved "indian" weekness. Go far back as 1962 when the chinese overran our territories. We had a far superior airforce yet we choose not to utilize out of fear of chinese retaliation and limited the scope of war. Is that cowardliness, lack of strategic foresight? I shall leave upto you.

I called you a idiot and buffoon out of your rather condenscending initial response. Since unlike you, not only have i been brought up India but spent some time abroad, allow me to educate you on how we indians are unfortunately percieved.


Ah thanks for making that clear. You are saying that India is perceived as weak. Other people look at Indians and say "Indians are weak". So you immediately and unquestioningly agree with people who tell you that and feel that Indian politicians are responsible.

So you feel that if Indians showed some spine they would be perceived as strong. Have I got that right?

If that is right, may I ask, why do you think Indians need to be perceived as strong by others? Why does it bother you that others feel Indians are weak? This is something that I have not understood.

So what if others say Indians are weak? You are not weak. You said so yourself. They should be able to look at you and understand that Indians are not weak. Why do you say that you are yourself not a coward, but that Indians show cowardliness? You are Indian no? How can Indians be cowards if you are bold?


if someone comes to your house and give a slap to your kids and you remain silent... your kids won't give a damn if neighbor says your dad is weak..
what kind of convoluted logic is that..

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Jan 2012 15:04

Prithwiraj wrote:if someone comes to your house and give a slap to your kids and you remain silent... your kids won't give a damn if neighbor says your dad is weak..
what kind of convoluted logic is that..


What would the kids do? What does your non convoluted logic say? Father is weak no? Kids may be weaker. Why is it so difficult to accept that India may be a weak country?
Last edited by shiv on 07 Jan 2012 15:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20067 » 07 Jan 2012 15:05

shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:if someone comes to your house and give a slap to your kids and you remain silent... your kids won't give a damn if neighbor says your dad is weak..
what kind of convoluted logic is that..


What would the kids do? What does your non convoluted logic say?


should raise a voice against dad.. what would you do? put up with it?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Jan 2012 15:11

Prithwiraj wrote:
shiv wrote:
What would the kids do? What does your non convoluted logic say?


should raise a voice against dad.. what would you do? put up with it?


Please excuse me for not answering this one because I will end up arguing against your analogy. Arguing against analogies is a mistake because we are going off the topic.

My question was "India is perceived as weak". So what? So what if India is perceived as weak. Just because some moron says India is weak why should India react? Pakistanis are saying all the time that India weak. Does someone have to react every time? Did you ever consider punching the person who called India as weak? If not, are you not weak yourself? Why cry on here? Maybe Mr wanderer needs to answer that one seeing as he says he's not a coward but knows about the reputation that Indians have abroad. Why not punch the people who say that there and then. Why blame Indian politicians for being cowards but claim "I am brave"

:D

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20067 » 07 Jan 2012 15:14

shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:if someone comes to your house and give a slap to your kids and you remain silent... your kids won't give a damn if neighbor says your dad is weak..
what kind of convoluted logic is that..


What would the kids do? What does your non convoluted logic say? Father is weak no? Kids may be weaker. Why is it so difficult to accept that India may be a weak country?


What exactly your point..? citizen of India are not allowed voiced opinion against any soft stand by the govt. of the country...? do you know that Air India changed an equipment from A 319 to A-320 so that Praful Patel's daughter and his son in law can travel in business class..?..I wont accept the fact that India is acting as a weak country? You have to live with it.. I am so sorry

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Jan 2012 15:18

Prithwiraj wrote:
What exactly your point..? citizen of India are not allowed voiced opinion against any soft stand by the govt. of the country...? do you know that Air India changed an equipment from A 319 to A-320 so that Praful Patel's daughter and his son in law can travel in business class..?..I wont accept the fact that India is acting as a weak country? You have to live with it.. I am so sorry

No one is stopping you from expressing your opinion. But there is no point in getting angry with a person who does not agree with you. This thread is supposed to be about China's Military. What we were discussing courtesy mr wanderer was his great angst that Indians are perceived as weak. Now you are talking about Praful Patel's daughter. Are you running away from the topic? You are stopping yourself. Don't blame me.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20067 » 07 Jan 2012 15:21

shiv wrote:

Please excuse me for not answering this one because I will end up arguing against your analogy. Arguing against analogies is a mistake because we are going off the topic.

My question was "India is perceived as weak". So what? So what if India is perceived as weak. Just because some moron says India is weak why should India react? Pakistanis are saying all the time that India weak. Does someone have to react every time? Did you ever consider punching the person who called India as weak? If not, are you not weak yourself? Why cry on here? Maybe Mr wanderer needs to answer that one seeing as he says he's not a coward but knows about the reputation that Indians have abroad. Why not punch the people who say that there and then. Why blame Indian politicians for being cowards but claim "I am brave"

:D

its not my neighbor.. I personally feel as a citizen of India that it is a weak country with respect to responding to hostility... .. there is a proverb in bengali.. "porer katha te jhal kheo na"...I am not capable of translating that in english ..but it somehow means don't feel bitter by outsiders words.. which you make a gross assumption as the reason any Indian being frustrated by lack of action by its govt. .. You simply ignore the consciousness and conclusion of an educated Indian citizen...your view of summarily treating everyone voicing a frustration is pretty amusing and incredible to an extent

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 07 Jan 2012 15:26

Prithwiraj wrote:its not my neighbor.. I personally feel as a citizen of India that it is a weak country with respect to responding to hostility... ..


Why do you feel India is weak?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20067 » 07 Jan 2012 15:31

shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:
What exactly your point..? citizen of India are not allowed voiced opinion against any soft stand by the govt. of the country...? do you know that Air India changed an equipment from A 319 to A-320 so that Praful Patel's daughter and his son in law can travel in business class..?..I wont accept the fact that India is acting as a weak country? You have to live with it.. I am so sorry

No one is stopping you from expressing your opinion. But there is no point in getting angry with a person who does not agree with you. This thread is supposed to be about China's Military. What we were discussing courtesy mr wanderer was his great angst that Indians are perceived as weak. Now you are talking about Praful Patel's daughter. Are you running away from the topic? You are stopping yourself. Don't blame me.


anyway...either you somehow miss the big picture, deliberately refuse to acknowledge that or just living in denial... a reaction to a certain news item is not insulated from additional news items which tempts to further corroborate a certain belief that someone is trying to build.....rampant corruption .. treating state property .. as your own vehicle to please your son in law... coming from a govt. which has no spine to be proactive...against a hostile act on its citizen... ... and someone raising a voice and you think .these are inspired by neighbor's talk

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby peter » 29 May 2012 17:22

ShauryaT wrote:
peter wrote:
Ok same question to you. What line of the border would you defend in the north , north west and west?

If that gets contested in the future what do we do?

I am quite confident you have not owned a piece of land (agricultural land). If you did you would realise that once the boundary is allowed to be changed by a neighbor it will keep moving!


I hope you do know the history of the land in question


Do you know medieveal Indian history much? If you did, since I am convinced you don't know, you would realise that muslim states cannot be trusted. Find me one example where a muslim state did not betray the Hindus.

So what gives now? Why should India trust them? Have they changed that they would not be back-stabbers?


ShauryaT wrote:In terms of contentions, if we are not able to enforce our view of our claims on the contestant in due course, accommodation becomes necessary, especially if the opponent controls your access.

Pathetic. We have attack after attack on India and the perpetrators walk free in broad daylight in Pakistan and you think this is a cause for accomodation? Ineptitude of GOI in enforcing its view just speaks volumes of the quality of the men and women we elect. If you were elected then you would behave similarly. I have no doubt. But you would still be wrong.

Buddy if a man with balls becomes Indian PM we would hunt them in their backyard as Bin Laden was hunted.

ShauryaT wrote:Peter: You could have asked the same question, without making it personal - not about to lay down my personal assets to prove something :mrgreen: . My thinking is, it is my solemn duty to expand this land that I own, use or benefit from, in that order.

Nah. This was a loaded question and your answer shows me that you have no idea how boundaries work.

BTW there is a character in our history known as Durga Das from Jodhpur. Read up on him.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby member_22906 » 29 May 2012 23:19

^^

Err... Peter, some basic GK 101. All Muslim >< Paki and all Paki >< All Muslim

Pls check your history, there were enough Hindu and Muslim troops together on either side of battlefield in medieval times for you not to oversimplify things

And yes, it does hurt my sensitivities when you arrogantly and or ignorantly make all Muslims look like backstabbers...!!

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 29 May 2012 23:46

Ajay Sharma wrote:^^

Err... Peter, some basic GK 101. All Muslim >< Paki and all Paki >< All Muslim

Pls check your history, there were enough Hindu and Muslim troops together on either side of battlefield in medieval times for you not to oversimplify things

And yes, it does hurt my sensitivities when you arrogantly and or ignorantly make all Muslims look like backstabbers...!!

+1
A lot of troops who fight for us in J&K (including Siachen) are muslims. This includes Lt Gen Hasnain and most of the jawans of JAKLI and J&K Rifles. You insult them greatly by unnecessarily bringing religion angle to this debate.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby skganji » 30 May 2012 01:06

There are definitely some exceptions when it comes to Hindu-Muslim equation. There are many instances in the history of Hyderabad, when Pakistani flags have been waved by the local muslim population when a match between India and Pakistan ended with a win for Pakistan.
However, muslim population in Kashmir is mostly brain washed with Pak Agenda. There is no guarantee that they will change the loyality from Pakistan to India even after India happens to hold Kashmir for another 50 years. Their religious book effects their thinking and Hindus will always be Kaafirs in their eyes. Even during several battles that occurred in Deccan plateau in India ( Battle of Talikota), there are instances when Muslim soldiers shifted their loyality from Hindu rulers to Muslim rulers. A snippet from the description of the battle of Talikota.
"At this point the Sultans signaled to the Moslem officers in the Vijayanagaran army to launch a subversive attack. Suddenly Ramaraya found his rear surprised by the two Moslem divisions in his ranks turning against him".
Again we have the famous example of third battle of Panipat , where the local Muslim rulers allied with Ahmed Shah Durrani to break the back of Maratha empire. There are some exceptions like the Ibrahim Khan Gardi whose loyality to Maratha empire cannot be disputed.
Again there are exceptions and we do have examples of Muslims who are very local to India. But is very small percent . So we need to go by the facts rather than getting emotional and sentimental on this issue.
Last edited by skganji on 30 May 2012 02:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 30 May 2012 01:26

skganji: will you now go against the Sikhs for fighting against the Sepoys in the first-war of Independence? or, Marwaris because some among them signed the deal with Clive? The Jats and Rajputs did not support Bhau during Panipat whereas Ibrahim Gardi and his men fought to the end. There are enough examples from History that will cut one way or the other.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby member_22906 » 30 May 2012 01:34

skganji.... Man, you need to take a cold shower right now and go to rehab to detox yourself from whatever you are consuming.

What you are stating is no less than venom of a religious bigot.

So as per your definition, Punjabis (and in particular Sikhs) are also anti national due to recent history. What about tribals of Chhatisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa...? There are lots of Naxals there...!! What about Tamils, Manipuris, Gorkhas and god knows who else..

Maybe even I am (as per your Lahori logic) since my grandparents came from Pakistan in 1947.

But one humble and simple question to you... What is your contribution to this country that is bigger than all other communities that are identified by people like you for being backstabbers or anti-nationals or god knows whatever tag you attach to them?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 30 May 2012 02:00

skganji wrote:There are definitely some exceptions when it comes to Hindu-Muslim equation. There are only a few handful of Muslims who are extremely loyal to their home country like Abdul Kalaam etc. .....

Exceptions? Handful?
Tell that to the face of "thousands" of muslim troops (and their families) fighting for you "right now" in J&K against an Islamic State's sponsored terrorism.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby skganji » 30 May 2012 02:03

Ajay sharma. Just relax. I am not stating any body back stabbers. I am just presenting the examples from History. The call for Jihad had resulted in death of somany people in the country . Vow what a nice way to address me ( religious bigot) just for presenting the bare facts. If you don't want to accept the facts, then it is your problem. Stop jumping into conclusions and attacking people . The other examples you give ( Naxals, Sikhs) didn't fight against India for almost 1000 years. However, Jihad had fought 1000 years of battles against India in some form or the other.
Regarding my contribution to the country, I may not be contributing directly to the country in the form of joining the Indian army, however, I am contributing the humanity in the form of being a loyal citizen to the country I live, pay taxes, abide by the law ,do some charities, educate people in the community, innovate in technology, etc.
Last edited by skganji on 30 May 2012 02:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby skganji » 30 May 2012 02:07

Gaur wrote:
skganji wrote:There are definitely some exceptions when it comes to Hindu-Muslim equation. There are only a few handful of Muslims who are extremely loyal to their home country like Abdul Kalaam etc. .....

Exceptions? Handful?
Tell that to the face of "thousands" of muslim troops (and their families) fighting for you "right now" in J&K against an Islamic State's sponsored terrorism.


I don't know the exact numbers. I already said there are exceptions. Should I be explict about these numbers ?. I know that large number of Muslim population from Kashmir valley join India Army. I am not questioning that. I am not ignorant of the facts nor am I denying the facts.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby brvarsh » 30 May 2012 03:07

@skganji where is this thread going to? A key of a flourishing democracy is if we keep state ahead of religion and never let any war be shaped into a religious war. We should learn how US carried its war on terror. We know who they target but its not a war against Islam. The reasons of certain events is also a history and a lot depends on their then current circumstances. Today there are many muslim soldiers in the Indian Army and paramilitary and doing an exemplary service. They are not fighting for Islam they are fighting for the state. Sikh, Gorkha and others on and off supported British or French or Portugese at different times of course they can not be termed anti India. Circumstances were different and interests were different. We are not defending an India of 1700's, we are defending today's India and the legacies needed to be protected. Such arguments are like how British discouraged Biharis in armed forces after 1857. At the end all soldiers have signed up for the state's welfare and its honor nothing else nothing less.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby johneeG » 30 May 2012 03:09

skganji.... Man, you need to take a cold shower right now and go to rehab to detox yourself from whatever you are consuming.

What you are stating is no less than venom of a religious bigot.

So as per your definition, Punjabis (and in particular Sikhs) are also anti national due to recent history. What about tribals of Chhatisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa...? There are lots of Naxals there...!! What about Tamils, Manipuris, Gorkhas and god knows who else..

Maybe even I am (as per your Lahori logic) since my grandparents came from Pakistan in 1947.

But one humble and simple question to you... What is your contribution to this country that is bigger than all other communities that are identified by people like you for being backstabbers or anti-nationals or god knows whatever tag you attach to them?


Actually, your logic is what seems lahori.

Anyway, are you saying that Muslims and Hindus lived in great 'bhaichara' and never betrayed each other? Or are you saying that such incidents need to be forgotten or ignored? Or are you saying that such incidents are exceptions and not the norm?


Gaur wrote:
skganji wrote:There are definitely some exceptions when it comes to Hindu-Muslim equation. There are only a few handful of Muslims who are extremely loyal to their home country like Abdul Kalaam etc. .....

Exceptions? Handful?
Tell that to the face of "thousands" of muslim troops (and their families) fighting for you "right now" in J&K against an Islamic State's sponsored terrorism.


Percentages...

------
It seems those advocating the Siachen 'De-militarization' are following FUD for their sales pitch. Following are their arguments. And they are designed to cause FUD (Fear, Uncertainity, Doubt) in the Indian minds.

a) If Siachen is not gifted to Pakis(or DE-militarized according to their wishes), Pak will disintegrate and then their will be no control on the jihadis who will attack at their will on India.

b) Brave Indian soldiers are dying in the cold mountains at Siachen. Lets save them from this undue sufferance.

c) Siachen is useless. Not a blade of grass grows there. Why are we wasting money and men for that god forsaken place?

d) Occupying Siachen is not necessary for protecting India.

e) We can always re-occupy it, if necessary.

f) We need to build confidence, so that the 'peace loving silent majority and their civilian representatives' can be strengthened. Gifting away Siachen woulsd be chanakyan move in this direction.

--------
Counter arguments to the above points:
a) Pak's disintegration and/or destabilization is good for India. Long term and short term. Anyway, giving up Siachen is not going to save Pakis from disintegration.

b) The situation is far better now then it was in the past thanks to the improving technology. We can expect much smoother ride in the future. If army vacates now, then they will have to start from square one, if they have to reoccupy it. In the process, many precious lives will be lost.

c & d) Siachen is crucial for the defence of India according to the Indian army. It is precisely for this reason that they have occupied Siachen and braved such harsh climate.

e) Many Indian soldier's lives will be lost in the process of re-taking it after the paki occupation because they will have a great advantage. Moreover, why take the risk in the first place?

f) This is the most crafty point. How can India strengthen the 'civilian pakis'? By gifting away or risking our territories?! Then, no thanks!!
Anyway, it is simply a conjecture that the pakis(civilian or military) want peace with India and that the only thing stopping them is lack of confidence.

----------
The biggest and the most valid argument is: why should India take such huge risk at all, given that there are absolutely no commitments from paki side(not that they honor their commitments)?

=========
Someone, asked a very valid question: What is the definition of treachery and who can be labelled a traitor?
In any other country, supporting a course of action that threatens the territorial security of the country will be seen as treachery...

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby peter » 30 May 2012 03:33

ajay sharma, viv, gaur, brvarsh:
You all did not read my post correctly. I said:
Do you know medieveal Indian history much? If you did, since I am convinced you don't know, you would realise that muslim states cannot be trusted. Find me one example where a muslim state did not betray the Hindus.


Notice the word state? Individuals helping out is not relevant. So gauntlet is thrown show me an example.

Furthermore Sharma writes:
Pls check your history, there were enough Hindu and Muslim troops together on either side of battlefield in medieval times for you not to oversimplify things

Hindus fought for Mughals because they had given their daughters to Mughal kings. They saw with their own eyes destruction of temples in numerous places and did nothing. The presence of Hindus on the side of Mughals is *not* an act of secularism.

Since you *claim* to know history let us put it to test. I would like to see examples where Muslims supported Hindu kings and did not betray them.

Lastly I would like to point out that the myopic thinking that you are showing is what prevades in our ruling elite today and that is why we have nonsense discussions in higher echelons of moving ourselves out of Siachen, be sensitive to Pakis, remove AFSPA etc etc.
Last edited by peter on 30 May 2012 03:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby member_22906 » 30 May 2012 03:39

johneeG, first things first, I am an advocate of not vacating Siachen. Second thing, I come from a family with several generations having served in IA and the princely armies etc. Though never joined the forces, have experienced the stress of carrying the thought of losing one's kith and kin. Thirdly, I don't love or support any concession to Pakland (perhaps enough baggages within the family of experiencing partition)...

What I am asking some self styled historians over here is that whatever conclusions they have come up with, it doesnt mean anything because India is still a secular and pluralistic nation.

When people selectively cull out data to suit their point from history to make sweeping statements that question the patriotism of certain Indians, I would like to know what has been their own contribution which makes them feel superior to those communities...???

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby member_22906 » 30 May 2012 03:42

Peter, there were Hindu Muslim baggages perhaps, but a lot of treachery was not for religion but for self gain... and enough within co-religionists to put up an equally strong argument that opposes your conclusion. So to paint a black vs white picture is not right

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby peter » 30 May 2012 03:47

Ajay Sharma wrote:Peter, there were Hindu Muslim baggages perhaps, but a lot of treachery was not for religion but for self gain... and enough within co-religionists to put up an equally strong argument that opposes your conclusion. So to paint a black vs white picture is not right


Buddy don't handwave because this is what JNU our premier institution is good at. Show me some data.

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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby Katare » 04 Jun 2012 12:07

I think Govt of Dr MMS and its dreamy success in driving record expansion of Indian economy has finally come to an end. I have been a strong supporter of Dr Singh and his govt over last 7 years and still firmly believe in his integrity and wisdom to lead India. He knows what needs to be done better than most but I think after Telecom scandal followed by numerous others that followed it some fictitious and some real, he has lost the command over coalition govt that he runs. Most policy steps that his govt took or tried to take has been reversed or nipped in the bud. His present position and shattered reputation has allowed his rivals, colleges and partners to gain an upper hand. His position is like that of Obama with respect to US congress. In short neither of them can garner support for their policies so a “policy paralysis” will continue until a new leader takes over. Both these otherwise capable leaders have been cornered by their rivals, prevailing situations and fate if you'll. Time to go!

At this point I don't think he can turn it around successfully, an immediate leadership change, even with Yuvraj or Sonia, would bring a sense of hope for change and freshness for remaining 2 years. Elections at this fragile time would/could cause more troubles……

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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby abhischekcc » 04 Jun 2012 18:33

>>I have been a strong supporter of Dr Singh and his govt over last 7 years and still firmly believe in his integrity and wisdom to lead India.

Keep dreaming.

MMS is ther most corrupt PM this country has ever had. Sure, he did not take money. But he did look the other way even as his cabinet members were indulging in corruption of biblical proportions (pun intended). Why? So that he could stay on as PM.

Is that also not corruption? He may not be money corrupt, but he is power corrupt. He is a Gandhian.

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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby gakakkad » 04 Jun 2012 19:57

I am seriously beginning to doubt ,whether 1991 reforms had anything to do with MMS... To me they were pvnrs idea onlee and credit should go to him ..that much is becoming painfully apparent..

A good government would address infrastructural issues , create proper investment environment ,facilitate industry by proper legislations and take proactive steps in development of the backward regions..

The present government does not show any signs of that..

The decent growth that we had from 2005-2009 were a result of sound policy framed during the NDA besides global acceleration.. UPA was at the "right place at the right time" and got credit for that ...

But now they have run out of luck ..coalition politics is a poor excuse... And none of the scams are imaginary... all took place...but poor policy did worse damage than all scams combined..

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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby Theo_Fidel » 04 Jun 2012 20:04

gakakkad wrote:I am seriously beginning to doubt ,whether 1991 reforms had anything to do with MMS... To me they were pvnrs idea onlee and credit should go to him ..that much is becoming painfully apparent.


Yes, Several commentators including TNN have pointed this out. PVNR unfortunately let everyone think MMS was in charge in case it all went South. The real courage was political. MMS has shown an unfortunate tendency to buckle before the strong and powerful and to go after the weak. Willing to crack the skulls of the AH crowd but defends the rights of the 2G crowd.

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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby Altair » 04 Jun 2012 20:21

>>I have been a strong supporter of Dr Singh and his govt over last 7 years and still firmly believe in his integrity and wisdom to lead India.


He is the ONLY reason we are having discussion here in this thread. He is an incompetent and self-serving government clerk. I can find people like MMS in many government departments all over India. They can take orders and implement plans but they dont have the "balls" to make an omlette because you need to break an egg first!
Integrity and wisdom! :rotfl:
Last edited by Altair on 04 Jun 2012 21:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby Supratik » 04 Jun 2012 20:41

Theo_Fidel wrote:Yes, Several commentators including TNN have pointed this out. PVNR unfortunately let everyone think MMS was in charge in case it all went South. The real courage was political. MMS has shown an unfortunate tendency to buckle before the strong and powerful and to go after the weak. Willing to crack the skulls of the AH crowd but defends the rights of the 2G crowd.



No, PVNR was denied credit for his role in RJM_BM issue. Many leftists hate him for that.


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