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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby member_20317 » 04 Jun 2012 20:47

In November 1992, prime minister Rao ordered Dhar to arrange a discreet meeting with the supremo of the RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh), the fountainhead of Hindutva. The wily Congressman actually had “old linkages with the Sangh as a student”. (p 466)


- Extract from Intelligence and National security thread. Book 'Open Secrets' by Maloy Krishna Dhar.

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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby Altair » 04 Jun 2012 21:06

Mod ji
I swear I would not rant and post my emotions of anger if people here desist posting provocations by referring to a politician's wisdom and integrity.
No politics or politicians. I will uphold the integrity of this thread if others oblige with the rule of not bringing politics.
Altair

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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby Suraj » 04 Jun 2012 21:34

Altair: "he started it" is not really an explanation. If you have an issue with a post, please report it and move along. I'm sure you're capable of posting useful content on this thread and elsewhere, but the emotion gets in your way.

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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby Altair » 04 Jun 2012 21:50

I reported the post. It is a blatant provocation and I will not sit on my hands.

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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Postby Suraj » 04 Jun 2012 23:13

Altair wrote:I reported the post. It is a blatant provocation and I will not sit on my hands.

Far from it. It's your post in response to Katare that's provocative. Opining about performance in a mature manner is neither provocative nor against forum rules. If you disagree, an equally mature response with your POV would have been the best approach; trolling and cheap shots will get you warned next time for thread disruption. I'll let another mod address your post report itself. No further discussion on the topic in this thread please; use the forum feedback thread.

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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Postby shiv » 06 Aug 2012 09:52

Victor wrote:
shiv wrote:Exactly where is the US going?

We don't know and there's nothing we can do about it even if we did. Whining about America is not a productive use of our time. BTW, didn't you say you were going to spare us your sanctimony here?

I didn't say that. Put me on your ignore list Uncle Tom if reading my posts is a waste of your time.

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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Postby Arjun » 06 Aug 2012 09:57

Victor wrote:BTW, didn't you say you were going to spare us your sanctimony here?

When the US starts to spare us its sanctimony on 'religious freedom', we can maybe have Shiv ji reciprocate. Until that point is reached, your suggestion is quite idiotic.

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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Postby Victor » 06 Aug 2012 10:07

shiv wrote:Put me on your ignore list Uncle Tom if reading my posts is a waste of your time.

I will try harder and please return the favour. I was going to respond to point out how moronic and pathetic you are beginning to sound but you are doing a good job yourself.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_23370 » 12 Mar 2013 21:38

LoL Chinese sure don't know how to handle eing caught with their pants down after lying through there teeth about pindeginous capability.


"What you feel or hope don't matter a bit in the real world". Exactly china may see itself as a superpower but it real world it doesn't matter at all since it is not even close to medium power.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ashi » 13 Mar 2013 06:15

Sagar G wrote:
ashi wrote:Sure. Whatever you say, don't bother me a bit.


Oh don't flatter yourself I don't give a hoot for any of your country's copy pasted/stolen weapons you can keep jumping in joy each and every time your country manages to copy/steal something, take your sorry ass and your claims of "indigenization" to some place else.

ashi wrote:We have a lot to look forward to, J-20, J-31, Y-20, J-10B, J-15, the list goes on. :-)


Yeah whatever :rotfl:

ashi wrote:There is nothing to be ashamed of, at least we don't need to import rifles from foreign countries.


We make our own attack choppers, you can shove your "indigenous" rifle up your's oh no wait the PLA already does that :lol:


Likewise, you can shovel your import rifle up your, haha, I bet it feels better than a insas.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_23370 » 13 Mar 2013 06:19

You can shove the entire Joke series up your ass since no one except desperate pakis is stupid enough to buy it.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ashi » 13 Mar 2013 07:33

Bheeshma wrote:You can shove the entire Joke series up your ass since no one except desperate pakis is stupid enough to buy it.


And you can shove the entire Arjun tank up your ass since even your own armed force doesn't want it.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_23370 » 13 Mar 2013 10:58

And you can stuff the useless yuan, song up your moms butt hole since the plan is now running after amur 1650. Shows the quality of the c grade chinese made stuff. :rotfl: Even chinese with no access to any quality products won't touch them or blunder 17. :mrgreen: .

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ashi » 13 Mar 2013 11:46

Bheeshma wrote:And you can stuff the useless yuan, song up your moms butt hole since the plan is now running after amur 1650. Shows the quality of the c grade chinese made stuff. :rotfl: Even chinese with no access to any quality products won't touch them or blunder 17. :mrgreen: .


And you can shove Arjun and LCA up to your mom's ass since that's where they will end up.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ashi » 13 Mar 2013 11:52

Marten wrote:Bheeshma, ashi: Please stop treating this like a Paqui or Sino website. I won't miss either of you for this cheap flaming.


I am just responding in kind. A cheap shot deserves a cheap shot in return.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_23858 » 13 Mar 2013 12:40

ashi wrote:I am just responding in kind. A cheap shot deserves a cheap shot in return.

Ofcourse, you win....Chinese are well known for cheap quality only..... :rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby ashi » 13 Mar 2013 13:02

martinbaker wrote:Ofcourse, you win....Chinese are well known for cheap quality only..... :rotfl:


Yet we sale a lot in your market. So what does that tell you?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Jaeger » 13 Mar 2013 13:27

^Seriously? This is the quality of BR now? Mods please shut this shit fest down.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_22539 » 13 Mar 2013 13:32

^Everyone likes cheap sh!t?

But seriously, if you want to avoid such flame wars, it should be nipped in the bud, not after some days to weeks later.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 13 Mar 2013 17:25


NRao
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 13 Mar 2013 17:27

There is a more complete article in the WSJ (print?), but here is another angle:

Xi Jinping’s Chinese Dream

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Sagar G » 13 Mar 2013 18:05

ashi wrote:Likewise, you can shovel your import rifle up your, haha, I bet it feels better than a insas.


The imported ones are also going up your's, just don't worry about that and I promise it will feel better than your "indigenous" ones haha.

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Re: Flying On A Wing And A Prayer

Postby fanne » 05 Jul 2013 18:14

Wow!! sorry to sound a different tune, but a separate thread on Uttrakhand tragedy was not allowed, where more than 10,000 people may have died, but a personal I flew and I am glorious thread thrives. Cry Mother India, for we have become so Dhimmis that we even do not recognize it.
rgds,
fanne

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Re: Flying On A Wing And A Prayer

Postby Vishnu » 05 Jul 2013 18:51

Fanne ... Your comment about this being a `personal I flew and I am glorious' article is singularly misplaced. I was at a certain place at a certain time. I saw stuff which is relevant. And I posted here because this is a defence forum.

Saik ... I am on BR everyday .. like so many on this forum but I don't comment on themes or issues I am not familiar with. If I cannot make a contribution to a thread, its better for me to shut up and read what others say. Hence the low post-count.

Thanks

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Re: Flying On A Wing And A Prayer

Postby fanne » 05 Jul 2013 18:59

I don't see how a separate thread on the tragedy itself be denied (wait for next tire burst in some western country in which there is exactly 1.1 causality, and see a separate thread, with all the worthies commenting with lots of RIPs). Our Dhimmitude has reached proportions that is mind blowing.
Well let me give a quiz to the BR folks, two unfortunate event happened along the same time - Blast in Bangaluru and Blast in Bostn, the causality was more on the Indian side, but boy people were falling over each other in the other thread for comments, picture, even people from Bengaluru!!
And we have 10,000 Indian dead, but repeated attempt to open a thread was discouraged, a response to that tragedy, has a thread. I think we have our prioritize right perhaps, I need to learn something.
rgds,
fanne

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Re: Flying On A Wing And A Prayer

Postby Manish_Sharma » 05 Jul 2013 19:01

fanne wrote:Wow!! sorry to sound a different tune, but a separate thread on Uttrakhand tragedy was not allowed, where more than 10,000 people may have died, but a personal I flew and I am glorious thread thrives. Cry Mother India, for we have become so Dhimmis that we even do not recognize it.
rgds,
fanne


Agreed Fanne ji. No you are not 'just different tune' but voice of truth right now. Sad very very sad.

IB4TL

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Postby chandrabhan » 11 Jun 2014 15:36

Prabhu Chawla's son, Ankur Chawla is a rising star in the 'Lutyens Delhi' Fixing game. Recently top lawyer (Salve) gifted him a BMW 7 series for a very imp job and i went on a joy ride in his car. He even invited me to watch a game in Dubai along with Ladies man from Kerala (Ex Min) from Stephens. This is post election & before the results, I politely declined to watch it with the ex min.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 18 Nov 2014 09:30

At some point it is good to look in the mirror, or still better to ask someone what they see. Let's be grounded here folks:

Single vendor situation - For 5th Gen aircraft we can get one today from US, Russia will deliver 15 years from today. Only other player with anything flying is China. Russia and China will both take 10 plus years to master Engine tech - no easy feat to super cruise without emptying the tank is my guess. Do we want to sport a 5th Gen plane today or 15 years from today ?

IAF will test - Yes of course. We should think highly about ourselves but honestly IAF or anyone else cannot come even close to US operational experience+tactics of using 5th Gen aircraft (for 10 plus years now). IAF will actually learn 10x more from F-35 versus Rafale or XYZ plane.

By 2025, a whole lot of countries will be flying a mature 5th Gen aircraft and will laugh their a** off when we show up with our 200 million 4.5 gen end of evolution Rafale. Japan, South Korea will be sporting F-35 and domestic stealth planes as well. To Buy Rafale because we played MMRCA for 10 years is seriously ludicrous.

It still pains that we will be paying 10 billion for these while we should have concentrated on AMCA. But someone did elect UPA in to power, so now have to pay the penalty. Just like US netizens elected Bush who ceremoniously emptied the bank - literally.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vishvak » 18 Nov 2014 15:37

I would suggest a separate thread for benefits/drawbacks of short sightedness in purchasing USA weapons just so that few other threads are not affected by it.

The topics that can be discussed there could be:
(1) How improper it is to answer one US leash (scheming with pakis) with another US leash (buying US weapons).
(2) How USA was supporting UPA (nuke deal for example) that penalized Indian projects and now USA is offering US weaponry as an answer to the Chinese threat.
(3) Why is USA not discontinuing support to Pakis, when we can otherwise uproot one of the enemies in scenario of 2-front war against Pak/Chinese; and what is need of American weapons even in smashing paki mujahids.
(4) How FGFA/PAK-FA will score in long term goals to have independent defense industry that is not enamored with US tech.
(5) Experience with USA in terms of intrusive inspection clauses

And so on and so forth.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Will » 18 Nov 2014 15:56

The US game plan is to play India against China and Pakistan against India so that all three are bogged down and neither China or India can challenge the US in future.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vinod » 18 Nov 2014 17:29

Will wrote:The US game plan is to play India against China and Pakistan against India so that all three are bogged down and neither China or India can challenge the US in future.


That is obvious to every one. But what is the counter measure against that?

Add to that, China will fight till the last Pakistani.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vishvak » 18 Nov 2014 20:33

What is the advantage of killing off competition when only Americans (and then the Chinese) will benefit.

Russians have been on our side over decades, while Americans have been against us. Heck pakis are the taliban of fourfathers, with a state & nukes and legitimacy given by UN, loans given by banks and so on. Killing off any competition to USA is going to make it worse only against India and not China and rabid hounds pakis.

There is no strategic advantage in not going ahead with FGFA. In fact, we should inquire why the French didn't go ahead for 5 Gen fighter jet, in spite of developing Rafale and ancillary industry for support/weapons systems - just so we can avoid pitfalls.

Presuming that Americans will be a 'good friend' - just because Russians have been our strategic partners for decades - is as laughable as the idea of fantasy movie Interstellar wherein people from 'Future' (actually Americans since only Americans survive in the fantasy movie) come in to teach foren unknown tech for survival.
Last edited by vishvak on 18 Nov 2014 21:13, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 18 Nov 2014 23:58

vishvak wrote:What is the advantage of killing off competition when only Americans (and then the Chinese) will benefit.

What sort of competition are we running vis a vis the FGFA? How do you suppose we should negotiate a fair price deal for it?

Russians have been on our side over decades, while Americans have been against us.

Except in 1962 and 1965. And over the decades we've been on the Russian side and against the Americans.

Heck pakis are the taliban of fourfathers, with a state & nukes and legitimacy given by UN, loans given by banks and so on. Killing off any competition to USA is going to make it worse only against India and not China and rabid hounds pakis.

China provided Pakistan with assistance with its nuclear program. Guess who assisted the Chinese with their nuclear program.

Presuming that Americans will be a 'good friend' - just because Russians have been our strategic partners for decades - is as laughable as the idea of fantasy movie Interstellar wherein people from 'Future' (actually Americans since only Americans survive in the fantasy movie) come in to teach foren unknown tech for survival.

The polite thing to do is to yell 'Spoiler Alert' before giving away plots to movies that are still running in theatre. (Just as an FYI.)

With regard to other 'strategic partners for decades' argument, when did we start buying from the Americans, and when the Russian start selling to the Chinese? Which event happened first?

(^Just so we're clear about how much value Russia ascribes to our 'strategic partnership'.)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vishvak » 19 Nov 2014 00:28

Viv S, please read mail from mody. It is in this context that I typed killing off competition. What is the benefit of killing off competition when long term the nation without competition will form selective cartels and mono/duo/oligo(group)-polies. Negotiating fair-price deal is what matters more, how is the details part after all.

What was in 1965 that Russians were not in our side? Fact is, it doesn't compare to how USA behaved in 1972 - directly giving cover to genocidal paki jihadi army on one hand and passing repeated resolutions against Indian Army in UNSC that Russians vetoed repeatedly. Not to mention 7th fleet in the bay of Bengal, not to attack genociders but to threaten the Indian Army who crushed the genociders! Frankly, neither the strategic partnership of Russia is comparable to USA help nor USA behavior to help genociders is comparable to anything else. We are doing a great disservice if we fall to this level of mis-comparison - also giving USA no penalty alongwith when it is we Indians who will spend our monies.

Guess who assisted the Chinese with their nuclear program.

Really? Pakis have 4 fathers and all of them provided some or other assistance, including the Americans. The watchdogs are all western and the watchdogs have been silent - which also points to complicity/wink-&-nod of their masters.

With regard to other 'strategic partners for decades' argument, when did we start buying from the Americans, and when the Russian start selling to the Chinese? Which event happened first?

Why don't you tell me? Defensive machinery or offensive platforms? By the way, Americans/Europeans have sold the pakis tanks, guns, fighter jets, ships, submarines that have been directly used by pakis against Indians in various wars already.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 19 Nov 2014 01:12

^ We are not going to get anywhere if we keep looking back in history instead of what lies in the future. History is useful to understand how countries pursue what is of interest to them. Friendship are driven by needs which keep moving.

From Indian perspective
#1 threat - China
#1 hassle - Pakistan

#1 threat cannot be handled with our home grown tech-budgetary capability. #1 hassle can be slapped 'n' times over with home grown goodies.

Focussing back on #1 threat - Our dear Russian friends have more often than not taken China's side or been neutral in any Indo-Chini conflict. Correct me if i am mistaken, and as of now they are bending backwards to please China, so lets not fool ourselves in to friendship and ties -it's $$$.

>Buying in to PAKFA is basically routing technology to China, almost in real time
>Buying in to Rafale will fund French 5th Gen research which will be in China's pocket in less than a decade.

Why - because we will not be able to afford a 300 million $ 5th gen French aircraft and moment the money stops flowing, the French jump to the next willing partner. Pakis learnt if from Agosta experience and India will learn from Rafale experience if this ludicrous deal goes through.

Summary:
Le't not keep donating money and funding our enemies. F-35 will be the 'value' oriented deal over Rafale in my opinion - a 5th gen over 4.5 gen with lower lifetime costs.

We are off better using the $$$ savings to fund AMCA - like South Korea and Japan are doing, instead of chasing wild gooses - PAKFA AND RAFALE

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 19 Nov 2014 01:19

vishvak wrote:Viv S, please read mail from mody. It is in this context that I typed killing off competition. What is the benefit of killing off competition when long term the nation without competition will form selective cartels and mono/duo/oligo(group)-polies. Negotiating fair-price deal is what matters more, how is the details part after all.

How does ordering the PAK FA prevent us from getting stuck in that same monopolistic relationship?

What was in 1965 that Russians were not in our side?

The Russians adopted a neutralist approach. The Americans also declared neutrality but imposed an arms embargo that hit the Pakistani side hard.

Fact is, it doesn't compare to how USA behaved in 1972 - directly giving cover to genocidal paki jihadi army on one hand and passing repeated resolutions against Indian Army in UNSC that Russians vetoed repeatedly. Not to mention 7th fleet in the bay of Bengal, not to attack genociders but to threaten the Indian Army who crushed the genociders!

And in 1962 the Soviets decided quite firmly not to take sides at one of the darkest moments in our history, while the US shipped in arms and material.

Frankly, neither the strategic partnership of Russia is comparable to USA help nor USA behavior to help genociders is comparable to anything else. We are doing a great disservice if we fall to this level of mis-comparison - also giving USA no penalty alongwith when it is we Indians who will spend our monies.

Frankly, we're deluded if we think that either side gave a damn about India's interests. They were fighting a Cold War and we were quite simply a pawn on the board. It would be more constructive if we were to stop focusing on what happened four decades ago and wake up to what's happening in front of our eyes today vis a vis China and Russia.

Really? Pakis have 4 fathers and all of them provided some or other assistance, including the Americans. The watchdogs are all western and the watchdogs have been silent - which also points to complicity/wink-&-nod of their masters.

And this is not an 'equal=equal', on your part? The US briefly turning a blind eye to the Pakistani program in the late 80s on one hand, and the Russians delivering the entire infrastructure for the Chinese nuclear program and deep technical assistance on the other. The Chinese in turn were more than happy to eventually pass it along to the Pakistanis.

Why don't you tell me? Defensive machinery or offensive platforms? By the way, Americans/Europeans have sold the pakis tanks, guns, fighter jets, ships, submarines that have been directly used by pakis against Indians in various wars already.

Varyag, Kilo class, Sovremenny class, Su-27s, Su-30s, AL-31s, RD-93s, R-27s, R-77s, S-200, S-300, Il-76/78 and so on. And yes, the Europeans and Americans have been quite willing to sell to Pakistan. So lets have a level playing field and make our purchases based on its merits rather than sentimentality based on long past history.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 19 Nov 2014 02:27

By the way, Americans/Europeans have sold the pakis tanks, guns, fighter jets, ships, submarines that have been directly used by pakis against Indians in various wars already.


west has sold to Pakis and Pakis have lost every war (they have a diff story)

Russia has sold to China and

1) China has brought the US and India closer
2) Just out - Australia is about ready to sign up with India (just 5-10 years ago India was considered a threat to the Aussie "Indian Ocean for Peace" effort)
3) Japan has signed up with India and is actually build roads along the LCA in Arunachal P - whcih China asked a clarification for
4) China has leased parts of PoK for 50 years, is training Pakis, building infrastructure in a disputed area, but does not allow India to build up a disputed area!!!
4) China is just about ready to rename IO to SL Ocean - without going to war.

So ................................ As we were saying .......................


Oh, BTW, thsi just in:


Narendra Modi and Tony Abbott reveal new India-Australia military agreement

An Australian paper!!!!!!


The new India-Australia framework dovetails neatly with both countries tightening ties with both Japan and the United States, suggesting the informal resurrection of a "security quad" or "security diamond" of democratic powers that was previously dropped due to Chinese concerns.


Those Chinese "concerns" are no longer a concern, because of Russian items sold to china


#Strategy :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kashi » 19 Nov 2014 05:27

NRao wrote:1) China has brought the US and India closer


Oh yes, brought us closer to

1. Hillary "looking-for-mass-graves" Clinton

2. John Kerrorist

3. "My name is Barack HUSSEIN Obama"

4. Visa ban on an elected leader...

and of course Cavity search of our diplomats...doesn't get any closer than this.

Try harder mate...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 19 Nov 2014 05:32

^^^^^^

I don't have to, Modi just did .......... actually while he was down under talking to his mate:

The new India-Australia framework dovetails neatly with both countries tightening ties with both Japan and the United States, suggesting the informal resurrection of a "security quad" or "security diamond" of democratic powers that was previously dropped due to Chinese concerns.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby brar_w » 19 Nov 2014 05:35

Kashi wrote:
NRao wrote:1) China has brought the US and India closer


Oh yes, brought us closer to

1. Hillary "looking-for-mass-graves" Clinton

2. John Kerrorist

3. "My name is Barack HUSSEIN Obama"

4. Visa ban on an elected leader...

and of course Cavity search of our diplomats...doesn't get any closer than this.

Try harder mate...


Getting close does not mean solving all long standing disputes over diplomatic, economic or other matters. It means that there is a common interest that aligns for both parties and they can build off of that. Thats all that means. A trend can be established given M2M relation over the past decade, the defense acquisition relation over the last decade and the projected growth on both these fronts over the next decade.


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