Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

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SwamyG
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by SwamyG »

Image

Here is the necklace that I would like India to wear. I have colored the countries in orange that India should actively engage in keeping them friendly to very-very-friendly. Apart from government to government contacts, the image of India needs to be improved in the minds of the aam admi in these countries.

I have taken the liberty to color parts of Pakistan (Balochistan) and China (Tibet). But a few of them, we have lot of historical connections with almost all the countries. We have been a soft power and it is time to establish stronger relationships with these countries. The countries have to be informed of the benefit they will acquire in establishing long term friendly relationships.
himadri
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by himadri »

^^^^ you kept POK out of the frame, like what bbc does.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

^^ If I may, I think the map was intended to represent "friends" to be "cultivated", not occupiers of one's own house who have turned rowdy and behave like non-family. These latter are usually brought into line by "loshtroushudhi".
Pranav
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

brihaspati wrote: It is not sufficient to endlessly posture about Chinese occupied territory, but establish Independent Tibbet, and recover Indian territories in the process.
Brihaspati ji, I don't think India needs to deliberately perpetuate the adversarial relationship with the Chinese.

IMHO Chinese Confucian/Buddhist civilization can be quite compatible with Bharatiya Civilization. As far as China is concerned, I think the way forward is to encourage them to re-establish their true civilization, become democratic, give space to Tibetans so that they feel reassured about not being overwhelmed by Han people, and cut off all aid to TSP (else suffer consequences like trade sanctions in the Indian market, or defense ties between India and the Vietnamese or Taiwanese).

At the same time defense preparedness has to be kept at the highest level to discourage any adventurousness.

People may have noticed that the jingoistic/aggressive tone in the Chinese press in the wake of 26/11 has become somewhat more mellow as TSP has gone into tailspin/meltdown.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by SwamyG »

Both of you are right.

I apologize that I could not find, quickly, a map with J&K adorning the top of our country. Several maps I saw with the full Indian Ocean countries had J&K as disputed territory. I thought this was better than showing the state disputed. My sincere apologies for hurting sentiments.

If trends are to be believed Indian Ocean is going to be a key region in the next few decades. And we need as many friends as possible in the region. In an ideal case, there should be more than one think-tanks focused on each of these countries; and providing inputs to GoI and business. I think we have to go back to things that worked in the past - "trade". Indian business houses can benefit from such friendly countries and create a "goodwill" in the hearts of those countries citizens. GoI becomes the facilitator and regulator but should never be what Britain was for East India Company. We do not want to occupy those countries and rob them. Indians and India should respect those countries for what they are. We want a healthy and mutually benefiting relationship. We can have cooperation in the field of Military/Security, health, trade & education. The end goal is these countries will be on our side in times of peace and war.

Nature gave us the benefit of making it our backyard, and we have to ensure it will remain our yard.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

Pranavji,

Have we ever wondered about the very practical question of how the Talebs get supplied with up to date weapons and more importantly spares and ammunition?

We should not fall for PRC pretensions. PRC stepped up its Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai chorus before it moved in on India in 1962. This is part of typical Tsun-Zuism of the Chinese communists. Civilizational basis of "Buddhism" etc in the common Chinese is one aspect - but the Sinified Marxism practised by the CCP and its regime in state power is a completely different aspect.

China wants to secure eneregy resources and markets centred around the Indian Ocean, and it sees India as the major obstacle in this project. As long as India wants to assert its own interests, CCP will try to destroy it. In a future China where CCP has been overthrown and some form of democracy takes root, India can try to restore historical good relations, but time for that is not yet come.

PRC is simply shifting its direct support from the TSP state and army to the "Taleb" portion of the PA. This quietening of "jingoism" is due to the change of perspective and recognition of new priorities and PA segments as allies. The Talebs are moving East, South and North very much with PRC support. It is urgent for the PRC to secure the Northern Kashmir under formal PA and underhand PLA control. In the southern plains, USA may intervene. So the Taleb human and weapons resources will have to be secured and as I have predicted before - there will be formal "clashes" and moves by the PA that drives the Talebs back "north". This time however part of them will simply move up the POK valley. Most probably to protect the nuke installations of the Chinese from possible US attacks, nukes which TSP passes of as its own, likely to be placed in occupied "North Kashmir".

PRC has a great strategic disadvantage in its "bulging" western frontier. They can be made to run around in thinning circles using Islamic extermists in the NE, legitimate Tibetan moves in the west, and Indian shrewd projections in SE Asia. We should make PRC expend ever more on defence, and keep it scattered around in its geographic disadvantage.

Let us cultivate being ruthless in taking Bharat's interests forward. We can be magnanimous from overhwleming positions of strength. Let us first achieve that strength.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by ramana »

Shirish wrote:Ramanaji, Shivji,
Was my last post deleted inadvertently? :oops:
I think you posted in the Strategic Leadership thread and were looking for it here. 8)
Shirish wrote:If Bharat really gets the weakest government since 1947 that would be turned and twisted by the west, I wouldn't be surprised if the resulting events shocked us to the core...things like...

-1. India should rush to the assistance of the Pak Govt.
> 2. Give them support by reducing tensions on the LoC by
> backing off troop strengths and lowering levels of
> retribution on the fence.
> 3. This would help create a Kashmir like situation in
> western Pak
> 4. The longer we enable them to fight the Taliban, the more
> they bleed- which should actually be fun for us.
> 5. The Pak-Punjab state would then be our buffer from the
> 6. Taliban reaching the Indian Borders and they start spreading
> their tentacles into J&K.

What a story this would make..... maybe some should write this...
Dank You
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Keshav »

ramana wrote:
> 2. Give them support by reducing tensions on the LoC by
> backing off troop strengths and lowering levels of
> retribution on the fence.
I had suggested early on that removing troops from Kashmir might be a good idea to reduce tensions, but as others pointed out India needs to keep a certain troop strength there.

And the other obvious point is that mullahs are driven by a certain worldview that is irreconcilable with logic. They will create the bogeyman of India regardless of what we do. The current voices of Pakistan from articles that have been posted on BRF concerning the Taliban are ample proof that there is a dizzying and insanely comical degree of ignorance that Pakistanis are steeped in.
> 6. Taliban reaching the Indian Borders and they start spreading
> their tentacles into J&K.
Didn't this start when Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda joined forces with the Taliban. That merger moved the Taliban away from Afghani-Islamic nationalism to the global jihad of which Kashmir was one part.

Who else would the terrorists in Kashmir be?
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

brihaspati wrote:Pranavji,
Have we ever wondered about the very practical question of how the Talebs get supplied with up to date weapons and more importantly spares and ammunition?
As per frothing-at-the-mouth Pakis, the TTP faction is an Amreeki conspiracy.
Let us cultivate being ruthless in taking Bharat's interests forward. We can be magnanimous from overhwleming positions of strength. Let us first achieve that strength.
Absolutely. Way too much somnolence on the part of our governments. The NDA government was almost equally culpable.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by SwamyG »

Abhi_G wrote:Shiv, can you read what is written by looking at the script?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uttama_coin.png

It is a coin from the Chola empire (900 C.E). The word "Uttam Chol" is written in Nagari script and it is the current Bangla script. How come Bangla script appears in the Chola empire? It is till unknown why that particular Chola emperor used nagari script. It may be a personal fascination of that ruler but it also points to the fact that signs, scripts and languages intermingled and the sense of *separateness* was not very acute, even if it would have been existent to a certain degree. To be fair, a certain degree of local consciousness will always be there.
It is just not that particular emperor, but in South there was a trend where inscriptions became bilingual - tamil and sanskrit. Pallavas, Cholas, Cheras and Pandayas Kingdoms actively used them. Chitra Madhavan has written couple of books on the history of Tamil Nadu based on Sanskrit wordings from these bilingual inscriptions. Grantham was used a lot to write Sanskrit in Tamil Nadu.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Aditya_V »

SwamyG Abhi_G wrote:
Shiv, can you read what is written by looking at the script?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uttama_coin.png

It is a coin from the Chola empire (900 C.E). The word "Uttam Chol" is written in Nagari script and it is the current Bangla script. How come Bangla script appears in the Chola empire? It is till unknown why that particular Chola emperor used nagari script. It may be a personal fascination of that ruler but it also points to the fact that signs, scripts and languages intermingled and the sense of *separateness* was not very acute, even if it would have been existent to a certain degree. To be fair, a certain degree of local consciousness will always be there.


It is just not that particular emperor, but in South there was a trend where inscriptions became bilingual - tamil and sanskrit. Pallavas, Cholas, Cheras and Pandayas Kingdoms actively used them. Chitra Madhavan has written couple of books on the history of Tamil Nadu based on Sanskrit wordings from these bilingual inscriptions. Grantham was used a lot to write Sanskrit in Tamil Nadu.
SwamyG how can you write such blasphemous stuff, it totally goes against the grain of AIT, Sankrit is the language of murderous Northy Brahminists and Tamils is the language of sdre Dravidians Bhindians, the two will never have mixed, such information will poison the minds of kids learning pure Maculyte history in Indian schools. Please continue to state the sun rises in the West
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by SwamyG »

Aditya: LoL. I get your point. Irrespective or AIT or not, Hinduism (as we know it), Buddhism & Jainism did flow from the North to the South. And they carried Sanskrit with them to a large extent. The inscriptions for the most part were from the nobility.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by ramana »

A request please dont mix sarcasm with comments in this thread to avoid flame wars. Or post an emoticon to clarify. This will ensure that newbies or those rushed for time dont take it incorrectly. Lessens admin workload in soothing troubled waters. 8)

Thanks, ramana
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

Keshav wrote
Who else would the terrorists in Kashmir be?
At the moment, those inside J&K are desperately trying to create the illusion that they are separate, "indigenous groups". They are trying so hard, that it seems more likely that TalebPA is really working big-time to safeguard their core military strength from possible attacks by Unkil, by going in further into the North East from their current positions.

Where PA is "chasing" the Talebs into will be significant. They will plan it so that the Talebs are protected by a ring of PA from probes by Unkil. There will some good flashes for the sake of the media. PA will chase them "north". At one stroke, both assets of PA - regulars and irregulars are taken away further from the centres of retaliation by US. Queitly, very quietly will the Talebs as irregulars of the PA move north and part of them will "retreat" into the valley.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

The level of high-decibel and high-octane ranting in the media against anything "BJP" and "saffron" is worrying. It means that the Cong+3rd front+4th front are all worried that the BJP could be in aposition to stake a claim to GOI seat.

The level of antipathy all across the political spectrum indicates a significant consolidation of forces against the BJP. If this consolidation crosses a certain threshold of panic and paranoia it can lead to a situation similar to what happened on the "night of long knives" in Germany. In India, there are many "third parties" available to do the deed. Those operating under the banner of "Naxals", "Jihadis", "ethnic self-determinists" with overlaps of EJ and other affiliations are all pliable tools.

But there are stronger forces whose affiliations we are not sure about. If the political forces decide to liquidate "saffron" physically, with tacit support from external forces, which side will the "security services" take? Increasingly I get the feel that the command structure of the forces have been put in place to ensure that no intervention takes place against such moves, with the ideological affiliations of command carefully filtered to ensure loyalty to the "secular cause", and may be even an underlying hatred of the "saffron". Pure speculation perhaps, but just getting persistent inadvertent signals from posts in threads that supposedly are coming from command background.

The "Hindutva" forces are too idealistic as yet. I do not assess their capability to survive a "night of long knives" as very high. It is possible that further evidence of growing support for the "saffron" will push the trigger for plans of "liquidation". The deed can be carried out first by "third parties" or blamed on them, and then the third parties themselves liquidated.

Can an increasingly jittery Cong take this route?
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

brihaspati wrote:
But there are stronger forces whose affiliations we are not sure about. If the political forces decide to liquidate "saffron" physically, with tacit support from external forces, which side will the "security services" take? Increasingly I get the feel that the command structure of the forces have been put in place to ensure that no intervention takes place against such moves, with the ideological affiliations of command carefully filtered to ensure loyalty to the "secular cause", and may be even an underlying hatred of the "saffron". Pure speculation perhaps, but just getting persistent inadvertent signals from posts in threads that supposedly are coming from command background.

Can an increasingly jittery Cong take this route?
Can you identify those posts in those threads which are coming from command background.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

Perhaps better not to go too far into this. Very early there were quite a bit of invectives and complains about "that Hindutva chap". This was quite strange for me and seemed disproportionate reaction. Qucikly recovering and becoming cautious, but the negative attitude still comes through. Here is a persistent hostility and distrust of anything that appears remotely connected to the "Hindu" and an unquestioning acceptance or apparent unawareness of negative sides of other faiths - that gets me worried. Not open to gestures of discussion and understanding. As if a certain inner position against the "Hindu" has already been arrived at. End.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

brihaspati wrote:Perhaps better not to go too far into this. Very early there were quite a bit of invectives and complains about "that Hindutva chap". This was quite strange for me and seemed disproportionate reaction. Qucikly recovering and becoming cautious, but the negative attitude still comes through. Here is a persistent hostility and distrust of anything that appears remotely connected to the "Hindu" and an unquestioning acceptance or apparent unawareness of negative sides of other faiths - that gets me worried. Not open to gestures of discussion and understanding. As if a certain inner position against the "Hindu" has already been arrived at. End.
Most of the people have been identified here who dont like Hindutva. There are others who hide their feelings.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

Possible withdrawal of TSPA troops from the East can be a precursor of several different flavours. Withdrawal from Indian border could actually mean that TSPA needs to commit sufficient forces to stabilize the situation with semi-rogue Talebjabis barely under overt ISI control. But it can also be part of a wider strategy to move the Talebjabis from southern Swat towards POK, and allow them "hassle free" passage. The TSPA can then form an arc in the south around the Talebs in the north and to a certain extent provide a ring of shock absorber from US forays. They can later on swing north claiming "hot pursuit" of the Talebs to the POK border and basically return to their old positions against India. The Talebs will then performs a more organized forward assault irregular team like the Chitralis of 1948.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

A good article, on the role of the Church in the SL conflict.

One caveat is that the Church itself is possibly only a tool - Christianity as propagated by these Churches is not an end in itself, but rather a means for global domination. Religion itself is a motivating factor, and if you add to that a narrative of real or imagined persecution, then it can become a powerful instrument for global forces. The devout natives and the lower rungs of the Church hierarchy need not even be aware of this "higher purpose". The same global forces are perfectly capable of using other instruments too (e.g. Maoism or even wayward factions of Hindutva).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Missionary position -on Indian TV!
http://www.dailypioneer.com/173315/Miss ... n-TV!.html

The Other Voice | B Haran

Is the Church fanning the flames of Tamil nationalism in pre-election Tamil Nadu ? A probe of Father J Gasper Raj’s background may provide some valuable answers

The Christian Church has an old tendency to infiltrate non-white and non-Semitic civilisations and then influence people with propaganda aimed at undermining their faith in their own ancient culture. The objective is to eventually Christianise these countries entirely.

The Sinhala-Tamil divide is a result of that strategy. Just as the Church divided Tamil Nadu society through its bogus 'Aryan' (Brahmin) - 'Dravidian' (Non-Brahmin) theory to alienate non-Brahmins from the 'Hindu' fold along linguistic lines (Aryan: Sanskrit; Dravidian: Tamil), so too did they divide the Sri Lankan people capitalising on their language (Sinhala-Tamil) divide. On the one hand, it backed the LTTE fully against the government, and on the other, it successfully infiltrated the Sri Lankan establishment and influenced the government through the Sinhala Christian leadership.

The first Sri Lankan Tamil leader to raise the demand for separatism was a Christian - Samuel James Velupillai Chelvanayakam. He called for a "Greater Dravida Nadu" on both sides of the Palk Straits. It could be said that the LTTE followed his footsteps, backed by the Church and missionaries. Ever since ethnic riots took place in 1983, Anton Balasingham, a Roman Catholic, assumed the mantle of LTTE's political leadership and was second only to Velupillai Prabhakaran, also a Christian.

Ironically, the 85 per cent Hindu majority of Sri Lankan Tamils came totally under the control of a Christian minority leadership, thanks to the Machiavellian machinations of the Church. It is difficult to swallow this bitter truth, especially when recalling the glorious past of Sri Lankan Tamil Hindus under the leadership of great Shaivite scholars like Arumuga Navalar, Ponnambalam Ramanathan and Ponnambalam Arunachalam, and intellectuals like the Coomaraswamys. The Buddhists of Sri Lanka also had deep respect for these savants. Ponnambalam Ramanathan was the one who pushed for "Wesak" or "Buddha Purnima" to be a public holiday in colonial Sri Lanka.

Cut to 2003, the year Buddhist and Hindu leaders of Sri Lanka joined hands to draft a legislation at the request of the Hindu Affairs Minister, T. Maheswaran, to legally stop conversion activities by the Church. Despite the pressure applied by this joint committee which worked for six months to draft the new Act, the Church-influenced the government to freeze it.

The Church probably foresaw that unity between the majority (Buddhists) and the largest minority (Tamil Hindus) - could lead to permanent peace in the war-struck island and make the missionaries irrelevant. So, it sabotaged the process of legislation by favouring the creation of an 'inter-religious council' to hammer out a solution. This so-called 'inter-religious council' is a typical Christian strategy (much like the Church-backed inter-faith 'dialogues' in non-Christian countries) to thwart all attempts to ban conversions by an Act of Parliament.

Though organisations like the All Ceylon Hindu Congress (though pro-LTTE), Hindu Council of Sri Lanka and National Council of Buddhist Clergy are dead against conversion activities, the Church has been able to influence the political leadership across the spectrum to sabotage the legislation of the anti-conversion Law.

The former Hindu Affairs Minister in Ranil Wickramasinge's cabinet T. Maheswaran was assassinated on January 1, 2008 while worshipping in a Shiva Temple. Till date, the government has not completed investigations into the murder, though it was blamed for allegedly reducing his security level and for continuing with minister Douglas Devananda, who is widely alleged to have been involved in the murder of Wickramasinge. BBC Sinhala.com reported: "The DNA samples taken from the murder suspect of a Tamil legislator matched with the blood samples taken from the gun used for the killing, Sri Lankan judiciary said. The legislator's security guard managed to shoot the suspect, identified as Johnson Collin Wasanthan Valentine.

As early as June 1998, 'Tamilnet' reported that an international conference on Hinduism condemned the attacks on Hindus and the destruction of Hindu places of worship by the Sri Lankan security forces. Though this seems like a Buddhist-Hindu conflict, it must be understood that the security forces are controlled by a political leadership owing allegiance to the Church. The centuries-old cultural relationship and largely peaceful existence of both the Sinhala Buddhists and Tamil Hindus may be ascertained from two facts.

First, their coming together to draft a legislation against conversion activities of the Church and missionaries, and second, the statement from the Hindu Council of Sri Lanka that the long-standing cordial relationship between the two religious communities in the Island Nation would go a long way in solving the present crisis and creating peace and harmony.

At present, all parties in Tamil Nadu are using the Eelam issue as an election talking point. Each party is trying to whip up emotions to bring about a cease fire in Lanka and thereby save Prabhakaran and the LTTE.

When the powerful combine comprising the controversial missionary, Father Jagat Gasper Raj and DMK supreme Karunanidhi's daughter, Kanimozhi, floated the "Chennai Sangamam" cultural extravaganza in 2007, Jaya TV went to town with investigative reports on the LTTE's connections of Father Gasper Raj. AIADMK leader J Jayalalithaa wasted no time condemning the government's association with the project. But, last year, both Jayalalithaa and her own TV channel, Jaya TV, maintained strategic silence during the Chennai Sangamam festival.

Over the past few days, Father Gasper Raj has been promoted several times by the national TV channels as a ‘representative’ of Sri Lankan Tamils. Participating in TV debates, he blatantly supports the LTTE as a ‘human rights activist’. He criticised the Indian government, and in one debate he had the audacity to call Dr Subramanian Swamy a "paid agent of Rajapakse". Yet, it is unclear if he is a Sri Lankan refugee or an Indian citizen. His antecedents and present activities in Tamil Nadu need thorough investigation.

-- The writer has given his consent to excerpt this from an earlier piece he had contributed to the website vijayvaani.com
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

An important point raised. As far as I am aware of, the previous Pope had come down heavily on the "radicial Christian" movement in Latin America. Several leading lights of the "revolutionary" theologian movement were excommunicated. This was mainly because the Pope found them leaning too heavily on to the "commie" side.

The connection/relations of the Catholic Church to Communists is quite complicated. Officially, and historically, there is of course plenty of animosity between the top-levels of the two. But it is not impossible that similar motivations that propel "educated/enlightened" youth of a "repressed society" to move towards Leftist extremism also moves a section to "Christianity" as a means of mobilization towards "social justice/political power".

Is it entirely impossible that such movements are not secretly and deliberately allowed to "prosper" to a certain extent by the top Church leadership as a means of obtaining leverage points for negotiations with political authorities for concessions - that are ultimately solely for the consolidation of hierarchical power base of the top leadership of the Church? Having observed the process by which this is handled in the Leftists, even "dissidence" and "radicalism/extremism" is deftly and subtly managed to stregthen party top hierarchies - a similar process could be working in all of the "organized" "faiths" - Islam, Christianity and Communism.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

It is curious to see that in all of the peripheral countries of India, the military establishment is strongly resistant to accommodating "irregulars" directly. This is expected, but when such irregulars represent a strong component of social aspirations then it becomes a problem. In India, there were two occasions when such a question could have risen - one the case of INA and the Naval uprising, and the other during the Kahlistan movement. However, the strength of these "irregulars" was far too less compared to the alliance and bond between the major political elite and the official "army". Or more correctly, the political leadership's interests coincided with the attitudes of the "regular" army.

In BD, the same problem arose when the question of merging the "irregular" "Mukti-vahini" with the army proper. In the subsequent coups, mostly those with "irregular" origins were liquidated. Here the BD army core acted as a tool of minority elite in power to suppress the aspirations of a large portion of BD society for change and reform.

In Pakistan, the case is clearer. The Army was always the centre of gravity of the state. And there is a strange dichotomy in which the irregulars created by the army itself are still perhaps slightly disliked and distrusted and looked down upon. But what if these irregulars prove to represent popular will or majority wish? In the absence of a strong minority elite like in India or BD, whose interests coincide with that of the "army", there is no political mediator in Pakistan who can manipulate the political sphere in favour of the army. This is the reason, the Talebanization will expand in the army.

In SL, the bond between the army and the ruling elite was never in question. All popular movements producing "irregulars" were therefore doomed to failure, unless the overhwleming majority took up the cause of the "irregulars".

In BD, TSP, SL the solid alliance and mutually beneficial relationship between minority elite rulers and the army prevented popular will and dissatisfaction to crystallize into success of the "irregulars" so far. Because the TSP army has almost successfully liquidated the political elite, it will not have much option in going down under "irregulars" as and when the irregulars manage to enlist popular support. All the voices of protest against Talebanization that we hear emanating from TSP are coming from an insignificant portion of the TSP upper and middle classes, who represent little of the reality of Islamization carried out under successive military regimes.

Nepal will be an interesting case. Here the society is obviously split in a peculiar way. It is both "communist" and "Hindu" in the popular representation. Are these two categoreis completely incompatible? In India, most communists have been "Hindu". But the society at large usually resolves this coincidence in favour of the pre-existing cultural one. It will be left to China now to bolster up the communist regime. Which will be a sure way to lead Nepal down the Myanmar boulevard. And not perhaps a bad outcome either for the future. For its eventual fall will wipe both communism and and PRC influence here for the good.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

brihaspati wrote:An important point raised. As far as I am aware of, the previous Pope had come down heavily on the "radicial Christian" movement in Latin America. Several leading lights of the "revolutionary" theologian movement were excommunicated. This was mainly because the Pope found them leaning too heavily on to the "commie" side.
Brihaspati ji, I would suggest that there are only four power centers in the world of any significance, of which two are independent, and two are semi-independent.

First, let us understand what it takes to be an independent power center. What is needed is control - by "control" I mean control of the military-industrial complex, monetary policy, the media, the "commanding heights" of the economy, electronic voting machines, school curriculum, intelligence agencies etc. The intelligence agencies should have the ability to snoop on all electronic communication, access any computer connected to the internet (see for example www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/windows.nsa.02/), and also have the ability to remotely sabotage or hijack all defense electronics (such as fighter aircraft, radars etc) via built-in hardware or software "backdoors".

The biggest power center by far is the plutocratic elite that control North America, Europe, Australia, NZ. Countries like Japan and South Korea are also very much dependent on this power center.

The second power center is the Communist Party of China.

The third and fourth power centers are Russia and India respectively. These are only semi-independent because the Russian nationalists and the Bharatiya nationalists are not fully in control of Russia and India respectively.

It is probably true that Russia is more independent that India, and that India is at present the weakest of these four centers.

Any other power is either dependent on one of these power centers, or is trying to perform a balancing act, or does not have the technological and economic strength to be significant on a global scale. The Islamic countries fall into this category. The Pakis have been successful in their criminal activities only because of support received from power centers 1 and 2.

As far as the Church is concerned, I would suggest that it is very much a part of the first power center. The Pope is only a servant, carrying out the commands of higher powers.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

Pranav wrote:
Brihaspati ji, I would suggest that there are only four power centers in the world of any significance, of which two are independent, and two are semi-independent.
I need to reply to this since it is a big subject. Give me your email
The three religious systems and their claims to unique privilege of the knowledge of and access to God and "his prophet", became the basis for the major battles, struggles and upheavals since time. The scale of the slaughter of populations and the destruction of civilization and sub-cultures, not only across Europe but all over the world, for the past 2000 years is staggering and incomprehensible. Not only have they waged the most violent wars against each other, but all three were unanimous in their aim of destroying the pagans - the only fight being over who had the right to convert.

While you will spend time studying each of these wars in more detail, for now here is a brief list of the conflicts in the recent past. The authors believe that in all of these conflicts, the three ideologies provided the key motivating factor. We shall leave it to our reader to verify or disprove this claim.

1. Inquisition-Roman Greek (3-7 AD): Forcible conversion of Pagans (a novel term created by Christians to refer to non-Christians primarily worshippers of various gods and goddesses) and Jews. Slaughter of of both Jews and Pagans of Europe and the Middle East.

2. Islamic Jihad (630 AD-today): Against Pagans of Mecca and Medina, Jews and Christians of middle east. Arab invasions of North Africa, Persia and subsequently onwards to India, resulting in the slaughter of over 450 million Pagans in India alone.

3. Crusades (starting in 1095 AD, with pope Urban II): Christians (Roman, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Greek) versus the muslims. The population of Southern Spain, which had been earlier converted to islam, was reconverted to Christianity. It is interesting that Jews of Europe fought along side Christians against the muslims to purge the latter from Jerusalem, their holy land, although in early stages, the German crusaders decided to first "kill the infidels among us" and slaughtered thousands of German Jews on the way to the Holy Land. The same thing happened to Jews in Prague, massacred by Christian crusaders.

4. The Medieval Inquisition (1231 AD): Mandated by popes Innocent III and Gregory IX in response to heretics (non-believers). Massacres of Catharists (very close to Indian ascetics) in France, their complete annihilation being completed in the Albegenian Crusade. When the papal representative was asked how to distinguish the heretics from the true Christians, he answered: "Kill them all. God will know His own."

5. The Spanish Inquisition (1481-1834 AD): Mandated by pope Sixtus IV in 1478 AD. It is popularly known as the "purge of Jews from Europe". Following the Christian re-conquest of Spain, it mandated Catholicising of the country. Slaughter and forcible conversion of Jews (and Moors) all over Europe, confiscation of their properties. Although perpetrated primarily by the Spanish kings in Spain, the purge of Jews took place in Portugal, Holland and France as well. At least 200,000 Jews left Spain and 323,362 people were burned (according to official records). Many European Jews moved eastwards into the Balkans and Russia. Encouraged by every pope with religious fervor, it ended at the close of the nineteenth century when it was (mistakenly) thought that Europe was cleansed of Jews.

6. The Roman Inquisition (1542 AD): Mandated by pope John Paul III, primarily in response to spread of Protestantism in Italy. Responsible, amongst several other atrocities, for the arrest and death of Galileo Galilee.

7. Catholic-Protestant Wars-Result of Classical Renaissance, the birth of Protestantism resulted in an internecine warfare between Protestant Kingdoms (under Germany) and Catholic nations (under the Vatican). It is interesting to note that in these battles the Jews of Europe sided with the Protestant kings and fought against Catholics. We mention in particular, the Thirty Years war (1618-1648 AD): House of Austria (Hapsburg Holy Roman Emperors Ferdinand II and Ferdinand III together with his Spanish cousin Philip IV on the catholic side) versus opponents (Danish, Dutch and, above all, France and Sweden, Germany, on the Protestant/Lutheran/Calvinist). Thousands of Protestants fled France to avoid persecution and some of them ended up in what is now St. Augustine, Florida. In 1565 AD Catholic Spaniards discovered one such colony and killed almost every single person there, proclaiming that people had been killed "not as Frenchmen but as Lutherans." On 24 August 1572, in France, the Catholics murdered thousands of Protestants in a single day (St. Bartholomew Day massacre). We also mention the fight in the 17th century where the Church of England tried to eliminate the Puritans, led by Oliver Cromwell, leading to a violent civil war.

8. The Spanish Inquisition-Americas ( 1492-1605 AD) – Mandated by popes Innocent VIII, Alexander VI, Julius II, Leo X, Pious V, Gregory XIII and Clement VIII. Spanish catholics slaughtered around 200 million native Americans for their refusal to convert to Christianity.

9. The Portuguese Inquisition ( 1494-1878 AD): Slaughters in Africa, India, Japan, Madagascar, Sri Lanka, Far East and Japan. Mandated by popes Pius VI to Pius IX. Perpetrated by Portuguese conquistadors headed by St. Francis Xavier, their spiritual leader. In Portugal itself nearly all Jews were forcibly converted. This inquisition is responsible for the forcible conversion of Jews in Brazil, butchery of Brahmins, conversions of Hindus in Goa, amongst other genocides.

10. The European Inquisition in Africa (1400-1945 AD): Slaughter of Africans perpetuated by all European nations and by both Christians and Jews, for the plunder of Africa, and conversion to Christianity.

11. East India Companies (1600-1924 AD): Involved the colonization of India, China, Asia, Africa. Primarily driven by the ADAE (ANGLO DUTCH ARISTOCRATIC ELITE) exploitation of colored colonies for aggrandizement of their wealth. Slaughters in India, China and Africa.

12. French Revolution (1787-1799 AD): Rise of French Catholic Power as a revolt against the destruction of France by the ADAE. French Catholics, under Napoleon, fought British-Protestants and ADAE, with ADAE in control.

13. American Civil War(1750-1789 AD): American Protestants and Baptists and others, fighting British Protestants and the ADAE.

14. Spanish Civil War (1936-1939 AD): Spanish Catholics, under General Franco, put up a brave resistance with the help of Germans (Protestants and Catholics), French Catholics and Italian Catholics under Mussolini, against numerous terrorist outfits trained by British Intelligence and ADAE.

15. Italian Revolution (1830-1871 AD ): Catholics versus ADAE.

16. Russian Revolution (1905-1918 AD ): ADAE, Catholics and Protestants versus Russian Orthodox.

17. World War I (1914-1918 AD): German and Austrians Catholics and Protestants, Turk and Arab muslims, on one side; British-French-Russian-Protestants, Russian Orthodox Christians, and ADAE in control on the other. Japan was minimally involved on the side of the ADAE.

18. World War II (1939-1945): This should be more precisely viewed as two wars in separate theaters. The first is European War -2 German Catholics and Protestants headed by Adolf Hitler (a catholic), Italian catholics, Arab muslims; British Protestants, American Protestants, Russia and ADAE in control on the other. The second is the Pacific War, where Japan was pitted against the American Baptists and the ADAE.

This process of mutual annihilation, which has been going on for the past two thousand years, has in the recent past, evolved in to a perfect science of sophisticated deception. It often uses the euphemism of "saving humanity, civilization and culture".
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

We start below with a brief outline of the major players in Geo-politics for the past 200 years.

1. The Anglo-Dutch Aristocratic Elite (ADAE), most of them of Jewish background centered around USA, Britain and Israel.
A powerful, dynamic, ruthless and decisive group, centered in the old city of London (simply called "The City"). Started around 1600 AD this center is responsible, amongst other things, financing of major European wars, successive re-partitioning of Europe, financing of American tycoons, occupation of India and China and the exploitation of South Africa, the destruction of Russia and for the creation of Israel. Currently they have major stakes in Insurance, Banking, Gold and Diamond Markets, Oil and Natural Gas, Shipping, and major real estate ventures in England, and have vast agrarian pastures in Africa. They control a vast segment of the world's media houses. This house claims to be a partnership and declares neither profits nor assets. This makes it impossible to estimate their financial value and power. They shun publicity and are the uncrowned leaders of World Judaea, perhaps providing the main strategy of the ADAE.

Next to the British Jews, the Jews of America are a major power in the world. They have been major political and economic players in the United States for the last two hundred years, starting their first major venture with the oil industry in 1835 AD. They own a significant share in every sector of the American Economy from almost all major banks, investment houses, major oil corporations, major media outlets, publishing giants, 1300-odd minor radio stations, major communication giants, power industries etc. They remain more or less invisible, masked under gigantic trusts and charities. The media assists this by never mentioning them in any news brief, focusing attention on relative small timers instead. Using this tremendous financial muscle, they can bring rulers and countries to their knees almost at a whim. They fund a host of non-profit organizations, think tanks, study groups, university chairs and academic projects to support their aims.

The Jews of France played a major role in events during 1600-1900 AD, and they continue to have a token presence in France. Most of them re-located to New York, the bastion of American Jewry. The Dutch Jews still control most of Holland, its monarchy and resources. The strategic power of the Jews derives primarily from Holland and England. Thus the popular name "Anglo-Dutch Aristocratic Elite". Though the Jews wielded great power and influence in Germany, Austria and Italy, between 1600-1900 AD, they were virtually hunted down by Mussolini and Hitler, and by 1935 AD almost all of them had re-located to other European centers of power and New York. The Russian Jews lived in disguise as free citizens, till their Jewish identity was discovered and a slaughter started and many fled to China. However, by 1800 AD they were able to regroup and collaborate with the ADAE to change the fate of Russia. In the chapter on the Russian Revolution, we will examine the very potent role they played in the unfolding of events and the tight grip in which they held Russia till the recent recuperation of the Orthodox church. Many of the Russian Jews ended up in Israel, moving along with the Red Army (sometimes called the Third Exodus). Another very potent force is that of the state of Israel. We shall defer this till the body of the book, and we will also have opportunity to discuss the Jews of China, India, Latin America and Kenya at a later stage.

2. The Roman Catholic infrastructure, centered around the Vatican, is the extreme right of Christianity. The Petrine doctrine, that the pope is the head of all humanity and is above law, is perhaps a critical foundation. Currently faced with bankruptcy after millennia of warfare, this church is being bailed out by the powerful Catholic establishments in France, Italy and the USA. Although Spain and Portugal were once the two arms of the Vatican, they have since been weakened, primarily in the Protestant-Catholic wars. Nevertheless, there are vast populations of pure Spaniards and Portuguese in faraway lands, such as South America which are rich in natural resources, and the Vatican puts this to good use. They have also served as conduits for shipping large numbers of Nazis to safety. Further, the European catholics cross-bred with the Native Americans, to give a second group of Catholics in South America who are the backbone of the narcotic trade in the region. Catholics from all the above countries form about 40% of America and control vast natural and financial resources. Most of the conservative fora, militias and the Republican party are Catholic. The Catholic movement has two primary tentacles in the Asian theater. One coordinated from Phillipinies, aiming at the evangelization of Vietnam, Korea, China, Japan etc. The other, of relevance to India, is based in Australia and New Zealand. Here, with active collaboration from the Protestants, they stage and coordinate the evangelization of Indonesia (involving in the separation of East Timor, and the slaughter of Indians in Fiji, amongst other things). Much of the evangelical movement in India (e.g. the missionary schools), are directed by the Catholic establishment in New Zealand. Australia provides a good cover for this, and it has the advantage of not being penetrated by Arab Intelligence, who primarily shadow the ADAE rather than the church.

3. The Greek Orthodox church, centered around Greece. This church is relatively low on evangelization. Nevertheless, they are very radical in the sense that they do not recognize any other form of Christianity. Most of the current Christian and islamic philosophical basis, moral dogmas and social injustices (women being inferior, allowing slavery, encouraging rape, plunder etc.) originate, around 3-5 AD, from thinkers of this group. Greek Orthodoxy influences Russian Orthodoxy. They see their sphere of influence in the Southern Mediterranean belt spanning Italy to Russia. Greek Orthodoxy is the odd man out, refusing to unite on the Christian coalition of Catholics and Protestants. They cooperate with the Arabs and the Irish and the Russian Orthodoxy, giving rise to a formidable combination. They do not cooperate with any player who refuses to denounce the claim to infallible authority of the pope.

4. The Russian Orthodox church, centered around Moscow. Czar Vladimir's conversion to Orthodox Christianity a thousand years ago, was followed a conversion of Pagan Russia to Orthodox Christianity, bringing with it the hatred of the Jews. This resulted in purges of Jews from Russia. A later chapter of this book will discuss the Jewish retaliation and its taking control of Russia. With the fading of Bolshevism in the late sixties, Russia once again became a spring board of a massive Orthodox Christian Revival. This latter movement has had consequences across the world, for it involved the use of islamic and other fundamentalisms to attack non-communist democracies like India. Although having a animosity towards the Catholic church, and to a lesser extent with the Protestant church, they do not hesitate to collaborate with them when fighting against Jews and Pagans (Indians). It today forms a formidable threat to the ADAE.

5. The German (Aryan) Protestant Christians. They were rejected by all other Christian churches, including the Catholic, Greek and Russian Orthodox churches, as barbarians and nomads. Rallying initially around the crown of Charlemagne of Austria, they subsequently destroyed the Catholic establishments of Spain and Portugal. Today, the German-Austrian-Hungarian-Croatian combine forms a formidable military and intelligence power hub in Europe. With a supply chain stretching from the South American countries of Argentina, Paraguay, Bolivia, Chile, Bolivia, and a host of African countries, their might in international politics ought not to be underestimated. However, in the Asian theater, they were outsmarted by the ADAE in World War II. They are today, the foundation of the European Union.

6. Baptist and Methodist Christian organizations, centered around Britain and USA. These are extremely racist and right wing and violently oppose Catholicism and Orthodoxy. British kings (starting with King James' rewriting the Bible) quickly adapted the Protestant religion formed in Germany. This manifests as the British Methodist form of Christianity, called the Anglican church. So highly anti-Catholic is this powerful group of the Anglican Church that it would rather join hands with the Jews, whom King James had constitutionally banned in the sixteenth century, than collaborate with Catholics. This animosity was used by various Jewish groups to bring Britain under their control by the end of seventeenth century. From this point on Britain virtually became the United Kingdom of Judea. Though Anglicans rule England as monarchs and the House of Commons still elects Christian representatives, the real power of Britain lies with the British Jews, centered in the Banks of England.

The American adaptation of the Protestant religion resulted in the Baptist church. One section of the Baptist Church takes the line of the Jews that islam is intrinsically terrorist and rejects any muslim claim over Jerusalem. Another section rejects the claims of both Jews and muslims over Jerusalem. The Southern Baptists hail from the southern part of the US and they had wanted slavery to continue into the modern era; this was one of the causes of the war with states of Northern America during Lincoln's presidency. These groups sit on territory with vast, untapped oil reserves, that is agrarian, and supports a vast industrial base. They fund billions of dollars towards conversion efforts (even of catholics, which has sometimes led to violent clashes in many parts of North and South America). They are among those with branches in Australia and New Zealand who operate in India. A significant amount of general military and social intelligence gathering in India is done by various Baptist missions. They are a very powerful group in terms of organization, motivation and resources.

7. Followers of islam, the Arabs: The word "Arabs" is today conventionally used to designate people from Morocco to Iraq. However, these can be split into three power groups. The first of these are the Arabs proper. These are the oil-rich Gulf nations of Saudi, Syria, Iraq, UAE etc. The second group is the African-White arabs: spanning Morocco to Egypt. The third group is the African-Arabs, spanning Somalia to Kenya. Although the ADAE had succeeded in submitting them to the policy of divide and rule, they were quick to see the game and succeeded in re-uniting under the banner of Pan-arabism, with two main centers of power: one at Egypt and the other at the Iraq-Syria combine, with Saudi-Arabia providing the main finance. The ADAE has however been able to divide them to a good extent. Nevertheless, with Iraq providing mediation between various groups, the Pan Arab lobby was able to deliver the powerful blow on 11 September 2001. This player overlooks a host of Western capitals and is backed with a powerful banking industry. They have been able to orchestrate collaboration with several other lobbies, including for example the IRA and (via a Papal declaration in 1990) with some European Catholic countries.

8. Followers of islam guided by Iran, and mediated by the Southern Russian islamic republics.
Iran, following the shia version of islam, is considered an apostate by the rest of the sunni islamic world. It thus became a rallying ground for the for non-arab, islamic movements. In the post World War scenario, Iran has been used by the ADAE to counter the resurgence of Pan-Arabism. This lobby has been quick in penetrating almost all newly formed republics of the erstwhile Soviet Union, and has converted them to bend to its brand of islam. It has thus become a major player in preventing the ADAE from getting lucrative oil contracts. We mention that at the same time the Arabs, whose morale has been boosted by the events of 11 September 2001, are denying extension of leases to the ADAE oil interests. This has resulted in an economic crisis requiring a fresh source of supply of oil and natural gas. The ADAE now needs to turn elsewhere to survive this financial crisis. Why not turn to India?

9. Followers of islam manipulated by all of the above (from 1 to 8), centered around Pakistan and the rest of Asia.

We shall put these into two broad categories: ADAE-controlled and Arab-controlled. Since Jinnah's turning to the British for assistance in the creation of Pakistan, Pakistan has always been under the control of the ADAE lobby. They mediate various islamic movements via the ISI and the intelligence apparatus of communist China. Together they are responsible for the secessionist terrorism in Kashmir, and the maoist movements all over India, the LTTE, and for the battering of the underbelly of Russia. Financial sponsorship comes from sources of the British and American intelligence, the Vatican and the ADAE. The money is generated via various humanitarian charities, narcotics sale, prostitution rings, and from the plunder of resources in minor countries. The funding is routed through various mosques and churches, by a host of organizations such as the ISI, Chinese intelligence, missionary movements, islamic charities, LTTE, the mushrooming maoist terrorist outfits, and more insidiously via organizations of benign appearance. This makes it difficult for the untrained eye to locate the source of the funds. It is indeed ironic that the prime control and funding of terrorism aimed at the destabilization of India emanates from precisely within the two countries which overtly condemn acts of terrorism against India: Britain and the US.

The second category is islamic movements as controlled by the Arab lobby. These Wahabi-islamic movements based in China and breakaway republics of the former Soviet Union, counter the ADAE-controlled and Pakistan-based narcotics and arms trade in the region. The Malaysian islamic resistance and the Indonesian islamic movements are mediated by local groups and funded via the Bin Laden apparatus. They resist what they see as ADAE imperialism in the area. The Philippines based islamic resistance movements, again supported by Bin Laden, are at least in recent times been a natural reaction to the ruthless evangelization by the majority catholic government funded by the American intelligence.

We mention that the first (Pakistan based) category is of major danger to India, as its primary aim is the destruction of India. The other category views India as an extension of its geopolitical game in Asia. In this regard, it is pertinent to draw the reader's attention to the shift, over the past ten years, in the Indian government's position from being non-aligned to being anti-Arab and pro-ADAE.

Geopolitical calculations should not however overestimate divides in the islamic world such as the shia-sunni divide. An attempt at bridging this divide was successful in the Afghan theater, where shias fought alongside sunnis, to dislodge the Russians. This attempt was engineered by the US, immediately following the Iran-Iraq war. However, perhaps unforeseen by the Americans, it was to have an unintended consequence: the players in the islamic world itself realized that they could overcome their differences and unite. The attempt at unifying shia-sunni operations was then continued through the 1990s by Saddam Hussein following his defeat in the Gulf war, during which Iraqi warplanes took shelter in Iran. More recently, the extent of this coordination is better seen in the extraction of five thousand Arabs, and Bin Laden, out of Afghanistan into Beirut via Herat, Iran and Iraq. Western intelligence and Mossad were unable to sniff such coordination for an entire decade. Another consequence of this is the increased ability of various islamic terrorist outfits to merge seamlessly in their fight against Israel (eg Hezbollah and Hamas) and American interests worldwide; we hope our Indian reader recognizes the implications this has for islamic terrorism in India, which is not only a country of pagans, but also one that is increasingly being viewed as harboring American and ADAE interests.


10. Japan.
Japan entered the geopolitical arena in the late 1800s, as a junior partner of the ADAE, and unwittingly functioned as its tool. It rapidly rose to great power partly by sheer talent and hard work, but also owing to external input which was given so as to make it a counterbalance to both Russia and the US. It subsequently recognized that it was being used, but it was not easy to extricate itself, and it was to be utterly destroyed in World War 2. Since gaining independence in 1952, it has transformed itself into a mighty economic giant. It has helped many Asian countries against European hegemony. It is today a formidable player in its own right and has an anti-ADAE tilt.

11. China
China was initially subjugated, for the same reasons India was. It was however unable to free itself effectively from the colonial hold. This is the situation even today, as it is of India. It plays the role of a junior partner of the ADAE in the Asian theater, acting as its financial backbone primarily through involvement in the narcotic trade.


It will surprise the reader to know that, after September 2001, India played a central role in the calculus of each of these players. This is particularly surprising in view of the fact that for the past 1300 years India has been plundered and pillaged first by the islamic invaders and then by the British, and left with a dried exchequer and impoverished millions.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by RamaY »

Interesting insight Acharya-ji.

Could you pls provide a link for further read...

Thanks
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

Check
Last edited by svinayak on 06 May 2009 01:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by RamaY »

Acharya wrote:Give me your email
ramay.brf at gmail
Pranav
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

Acharya ji, pranav.brf at gmail dot com

Thanks
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shiv »

Cross post from conversions thread:
Rudradev wrote: to Shiv's repeated challenges to "define a Hindu Rashtra" I would say that coming up with a definition (in the sense we can define an Islamic state for example) is itself restrictive and subverts the nature of a Hindu Dharma. You can come up with a snapshot of any aspect of it (legal/social/political/judicial etc.) at a particular point in time, an eigenstate if you will, but to say "this is how the Hindu Rashtra looks and must always look" reduces Hindu Dharm to the level of revealed barbarisms.

This is one of the most beautifully constructed paragraphs I have read that describes what we have.

But when you cannot define a border, you are open to assault and that is exactly what has happened through the last two millennia.

That is why I am insisting that a physical boundary be defined and a set of duties assigned to all people within that physical boundary to to protect that border. That is the first step towards reducing the possibility of external assault over a physical area in which the natural evolution of dharmic people can be fostered.

I do accept brihaspatis earlier reference to being ready to change borders towards an increase in size. But that must be secondary to protecting what is left and ensuring a robust and long lasting system of protection. The physical borders were defined long ago - but they were never protected.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

Shiv wrote
I do accept brihaspatis earlier reference to being ready to change borders towards an increase in size. But that must be secondary to protecting what is left and ensuring a robust and long lasting system of protection. The physical borders were defined long ago - but they were never protected.
I had insisted on keeping the "border" flexible and secondary to the priority of protecting "what is inside". Both expansion and contraction are tactical moves, can only be adopted if aimed at protecting the "core".
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Atri »

Manasvi wrote:^^

After the huns regaining power and invading India, tried to rule this land unsuccessfully, as Bhanugupt other Gupt king other with other feudatories challenged Hun king Torman (Turyaman?) and inflicted a humiliating defeat again throwing them back.

Later, Torman's hinduise son mihirkula was defeated by Yashodharman and after him Narsimhagupta defeated Mihirkul the Hinduised Hun
Hunas were worshippers of Rudra and other Indic deities since later of days of Tormana.. Mihirakula was a fanatic worshipper of Rudra... The cultural assimilation of Hunas preceded their military defeat...
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Keshav »

Acharya -
That article was crazy. Dutch Jews controlling the world?! Was that from Zaid Hamid or Sufi Mohammed, by chance?
Manasvi wrote:3) Later in the time of Raja Bhoj, Ghaznavi was thrown back from India. Ghaznavi fearing the powerful army of bhoja retreated via the desert of sindh to avoid a clash (reported by Turkic author Gardizi as Hindu padishaw parmar dev) with the Hindu king and lost many of his men. bhoja repulsed the ghaznavid Masu'd who lead a huge army into India to attack the rich inner cities which his father had failed to raid. Then bhoja realizing the national threat from Islam, organized a confedration of Hindu kings including the kalachuri lakShmI-karNa, the ChahamAna and other rAjpUts to fight the Ghaznavid Maliq Salar Masud.
This is fallacious. Having a federation of kings does not justify the existence of national borders. Even Rana Sanga created a federation to fight Babur, what does that have to do with anything.

Plus, you quoted a terribly written Wikipedia article with no sources whatsoever written in poor English with no puncutation or grammar. How are we supposed to take that seriously?

---

On the other hand, the information about the Guptas would be interesting to pursue. It has never been denied that India as a sub-continent on its own tectonic plate has natural borders which for much of its history acted as political borders but we know this was not always true.

Ashoka carved out what today we consider South Asia - that is, the Mauryan empire at its height (minus the South) which comprises Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka.

Do you know of any other good sources on other Gupta rulers? We generally don't talk about the administration of other kings because they were not at the front of any major conflict but its these type of decisions that determine a nation, not simply fighting.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Atri »

Battle of Bahraich

One of my favourite battles... Masood Gazni was defeated violently by Rana Sukhdev and his confederacy and India remained aloof of foreign invasions for 160 years..

I guess, after 3rd battle of Panipat, it is first time that central asian invasive meme is victoriously pouring in Bhaarat from NWFP in form of taliban, isn't it? The 3rd battle of panipat followed by Sikh conquest throughly broke the backs of Afghans for long time. Anglo-Afghan war and later Soviet-afghan war contributed to that as well...
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

Ballavbhai failed in two aspects of politics : he unwittingly, and probably out of regionalism as well as pro-big capitalist leanings (strange - for he had to endure the increasingly socialist Nehru and his ultimate indignity to a "capitalist" of the Soviet style 5 year plans - that again first broached by Bose!) helped liquidate the eastern faction led dy Bose within the Congress. Bose had national stature, with popularity in the South, East and the North West. A politically astute Ballabhbhai would have kept "Bose" alive and kicking to balance out Nehru. By helping remove Bose from the scene, he proved a lesser politician than MKG and MKG's chosen successor -Nehru. He proved this again by agreeing to withdraw from the race for the top-post of post-Independence India at the behest of MKG, even though he had the majority organizational support.

This different scenario, where Nehru was not the sole deciding factor, Ballavbhai could have been better placed to do his "Bismarckism", for Bose, to the last proved a nationalist who could draw in Afghans, Muslims in general, and large swathes of the country - in exact contradiction to Nehru.

Important clues for the future "Ballavbhai"'s and important for the strategic future of India.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Pranav »

Acharya wrote:We start below with a brief outline of the major players in Geo-politics for the past 200 years.
Acharya ji, some comments:

1. It don't think the Roman Catholic Church is independent. It is an instrument of the Western elites, who do not really care about Christianity except as a means of colonization and maintaining control. The Russian and Greek orthodox churches may be independent, but they are relatively powerless. As regards the Baptist and Methodist organizations - some may be independent and some not.

2. The Islamic countries lack technological capacity, and many of the regimes are undemocratic and dependent on Western support. So they cannot be considered an independent power center. But if the Pakis proliferate their nukes like crazy, the Islamic countries may become a significant factor.

3. I agree that the Communist Party of China is independent.

4. As regards Japan, it is totally enmeshed in the Western power structure. But Japan has a lot of potential.

So overall I maintain that there are only four power centers:

* "The West" (meaning the plutocratic elites controlling the West),
* Communist Party of China,
* Russia (semi-independent, not yet free of Bolshevik influence - and the Bolsheviks, as you hint, were agents of Western elites),
* India (has almost lost independence. India has almost become a colony of Western elites again due to stupor, lethargy and ignorance of Indian nationalists). However, potential is immense, as in the case of Japan.
Last edited by Pranav on 07 May 2009 20:22, edited 6 times in total.
Abhi_G
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Abhi_G »

Brihaspati ji, what you said is true. But whatever his political mistakes were, what we have now is due to the long-sightedness of the Sardar. And secondly, Nehru's 5 year soviet style plans started in 1951, IIRC. Patel passed away in December 1950. So I would wonder that there would have been intense debates going on before that. But at the same time, I would believe that Patel was fully engaged in building the Republic whereas JLN was busy with international "affairs". Also please note Patel's support for Babu Rajendra Prasad as the President which was against JLN's wish. So the rift between the two had already begun to widen, during and post Mahatma.
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by surinder »

Manasvi wrote:There still exists today near Baharaich the grave of the commander of the invader - Prince Ghazi Mian Masud. There he is hailed today by the local Muslims as a Ghazi and a Peer. And every year till this day an Urs (Muslim religious assemblage) is held in his memory.
To which many foolish Hindus also go and pray!!!
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by surinder »

brihaspati wrote:for Bose, to the last proved a nationalist who could draw in Afghans, Muslims in general, and large swathes of the country - in exact contradiction to Nehru.
If there is one thing that struck me most about SC Bose was the fact that he was able to make the Hindus, Sikhs & Muslims to demote their religion for national fervor. I read an incident wherein a Sikh went to someplace in SE Asia. He said Sat Sri Akaal to a Sikh shopkeeper, who refused to answer. After that incident repeated many times, he found out that under Bose's inspiration people used to say "Jai Hind", not the religious-based salutations. Same was true of an enormous number of mussalmaans in his army. That is in itself nothing short of a miracle.

Contrast this pull with that of Gandhi & Nehru. That they were so petty that they could not find anything good to say about Bose or stand for him in even a small way is shamefull, and makes our head hang in shame for so called "leaders" and "father" nation.
brihaspati
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

Abhi_Gji,

Here is Friedman's critique, and he indicates the much longer prior gestation period for the 5 year-plans:
http://www.geocities.com/ecocorner/intelarea/mf6.html
I believe that much of Nehru's socialistic talk is simply that, just talk. Nehru has been trying to undermine the Socialist Party by this means and apparently the Congress Party's adoption of a socialistic idea for industry (Ed. Note, viz., Avadi Resolution) has been successful in this respect. One gets the impression, depending on whom one talks with, either that the Government runs business, or that two or three large businesses run the government. All that appears publicly indicates that the first is true, but a case can also be made for the latter interpretation.

9. Favor and harassment are counterparts in the Indian economic scheme. There is no significant impairment of the willingness of Indian capitalists to invest in their industries, except in the specific industries where nationalization has been announced, but they are not always willing to invest and take the risks inherent in the free enterprise system. They want the Government to support their investment and when it refuses they back out and cry "Socialism".
Nehru had long advocated centralized economic planning, and as early as 1931, he moved a resolution passed by Congress calling for the nationalization of key industries. In 1948 Nehru chaired the Economic Program Committee of his party, and in March 1950 he headed the National Planning Commission.

Actually Sardar Patel had ample time to foil with Nehru on this. In 1938, under the presidentship of Bose, a National Planning Committe was setup under the chair of JLN. He convened a meeting of the ministers of industries of both the british ruled provinces and the princely states. This led to the formation of a National Planning Commission. This had its first meeting in December 1938. It had 29 subcommittes, and reports were emerging in 1939 and 40 until arrests etc stopped the work temporarily. Nehru's peculiar -pseudo-socialist-pseudo-capitalist views and the basic justifications given in the 1st 5 year plan was already quite well fixed and known in some of his correspondences - like to K.T.Shah, as early as 1939 (JLN's collected works). See also Shenoy's criticisms.

Th fact remains that the "socialist planning" initiative was retained by JLN right on the nose of Sardar. So it makes me wonder as to the real reasons behind opposing Bose on the so-called economic-policy!
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