Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 27 Mar 2009 21:54

ramana wrote:In another 20 years the number of Indians who speak and understand English will be the largets in the world and English will become another Indian language just as Urdu is.

With due respect, I find little pride in filling the rank and file of a foreign language. A language eptomizes a society and a country and a civilization: we seem have abondoned ours and borrowed someone else's.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2009 22:05

Language is a tool for communication. When one has mastery and monopoly over the tool its not useful to relegate it to the toobox.
Otherwise it can be misused to promote chauvinism.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 27 Mar 2009 22:09

Thanks ramanaji. Post moved to nukkad thread to preserve the sanctity of the thread which is painstakingly built by the gurus.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2009 22:13

JM, While your post is knowledgable its not for this thread. Now a dozen chauvinists will jump in and add to the tax on bandwidth.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 27 Mar 2009 22:24

Has there been a peeling of the dhimmi in us, really?

Our dear chacha, Nehru, had the right idea...here is what he apparently said (quoting google):

“Are we to allow Pakistan to continue to train new armies for invasion and to allow its
territory to be used as a base for these attacks? The obvious course of action is to strike
at these concentrations and lines of communications in Pakistan territory. From a military
point of view this would be the most effective step. We have refrained from taking it
because of political considerations. We shall have to reconsider this position because a
continuation of the present situation is intolerable. If Pakistan is not prepared to help in
putting an end to this war or even to try to withdraw these invaders then we should help
ourselves, even by crossing some part of Pakistan territory and hitting at their
concentrations. This involves a risk of war with Pakistan. We wish to avoid war, but it is
merely deluding ourselves to imagine that we are avoiding war so long as the present
operations are continuing on either side.”

That was 1947. Today, we don't even bother saying that.

Look through the news archives. You'll see the same darn story repeat at least since 1920. I am amazed we rehash the same debate over and over again. If Britain is in this, I find that hardly surprising. For a country that has been in the thick of it for centuries here and there has been no explicit denunciation of anything empire-ish or imperial, would it not be natural to stay involved and "spring back?" We'd do the same, if we were the so-called "spent force" (in someone else's mind).

The game is ongoing. There was a time, when if British troops moved to Kashmir to quell yet another riot that was initiated by the majority community to protest the minority king's administering, Russia would get peeved and move troops closer. Today, Russia's got a partner trying to cash in on the act. With so much historical evidence, we twidled when Tibet ceased to be a buffer? I find that amazing.

What is important now is to change this game, not continue to look for a more comfortable spot. There will be no comfortable spot, we've never been accepted as much more than a pawn in the great game and its continuation. We've never proven ourselves except in a game that nobody has been playing in recent memory, and one we fight among ourselves to reconstruct...

Our best bet is to change the game, change goals that would be more attractive to all whether in conflict or cooperation. Doing so will be a great future scenario for us and will need us to draw from the very depths of our Bharatiyata, so to speak.

JMT.
S
PS: I personally would like to write in Sanskrit.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Mar 2009 04:28

Just to clarify, I have written here before that English should be made compulsory as a second language to be learnt by all Indians, since it is most likely to be acceptable over and above other regional languages for any given regional linguistic group. Also as Ramanaji points out, and I have said this also like many others, that world domination of the language, coupled with the potentially overwhelming number of Indian English speakers, can be a very effective projection tool for India. But that still does not prevent me from having this nagging and painful internal fight - that I have to express myself for most practical reasons, in the language of a culture that still thinks of us as "subhuman beings". Long had this dream of someone establishing a "simplified Sanskrit" as the lingua-Indica (but can we have due representation in it for the "South"?).

But we should take English as a strategic weapon, console ourselves that it is basically an adaptation of the Old Germanic, a branch of the Indo-European languages and therefore a distant cousin of the Indic. Hopefully here stops the language debate which started out of an inadvertent oversight of mine.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Mar 2009 04:41

Game change is needed definitely. This change starts with India forming an axis with Iran and Russia and trying to spoil the charm that PRC has for these two. Draw the engagement point with PRC out towards SE Asia, as discussed in my previous posts. Plan and excute operations to incorporate most of TSP into India, push Indian borders to Afghanistan. Outflank PLA on Tibet through the northern and eastern flanks of PRC occupation and aggression after promotion of a Tibetan guerrila insurrection.

TSP is the means through which UK or US will continue play its game. By occupying and absorbing TSP, and surrounding AFG in collaboration with Iran effectively seals off UK+US geostrategy. PRC should be harassed, forced to overspend on defence, and drawn out further down through the SE, so that it gets busy to protect its own soft southern underbelly.

But this necessarily means a reprogramming of the Indian state. That perhaps is going to be a much more daunting strategic game change task.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 28 Mar 2009 04:46

How do we incorporate TSP into India, I am stuck there. The collapse needs to be total.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Mar 2009 05:04

Incorporation not as TSP, but its pieces as new provinces of India. Has to be perhaps of necessity militarily at an opportune point of time. My strategy for this I have mentioned here towards the beginning. There could be alternate scenarios for practical implementation, but the objective remains the same.

Thought many times, but finally gave almost all my reasons why any other alternative to direct occupation and incorporation under Indian control is likely to unravel all gains of the initiative. Only under multigenerational firm control, purge, carrot-stick, liquidation of the theologian networks, re-education, can we at all hope to solve the cancer problem of TSP. Just implosion without Indian supervision and incorporation will leave it open for manipulation by the West, Rus and PRC. All our agonies will simply be regenrated. Enticing the Talebs to attack after proper preparation would serve all diplomatic, political and military requirements.

Sealing off the southern sea-board in collaboration with Iran partly falls in line with your concept of making the "border" impervious to "undesirable" foreign "elements", and thereby desertify the focal point of US, UK targets in CAR and ambitions for the surrounding regions including Rus and India.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 28 Mar 2009 05:30

Take over of TSP might be of selective category: definitely take over Lahore & Nankana Sahib and hand it to the Sikhs, it will keep them eternally happy (and grateful). Balochistan should become a free state, which means no more nuclear tests for TSP. Northern Areas and Gilgit etc. should naturally fall to India. Help Sindhis be independent. Then rest of the Pakjabis & the NWFP can stay together (which would be TSP proper). That buffer is necessary. It will also be unable to do anything worthwhile. This arrangements will make sure that PRC, West cannot get what they want.

One thing is certain: If India wants to rise, liquidation of TSP is a must ... not just desirable, it is the absolutely must thing. India needs to be freed from the "tyranny of the neighborhood". Without this there is *absolutely* no hope. There is no road for India's greatness which does pass through the dismantling of TSP option.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Mar 2009 06:14

Surinderji,
have to keep in mind the demographics. Sind still has a chance of saving its non-Muslims, although by all news accounts things are rapidly changing there - same goes for Punjab. The Talebjabis are probably preparing in preparation for their eventual move on India or expect assault from India. Therefore they are carrying out their typical tribal reaction - ethnic cleansing. Just letting these places be independent without destroying the feudal-theologian nexus would be self-defeating. Given independence they will quickly recuperate and just serve as even more virulent centres of aggression against India. Being independent, they will be fully supported from behind with resources by Unkil and Uk.

My support for continued occupation and incorporation is to strike at the base of TSP power. This is the flourishing theologian network which are helped through the state, and its backers in the west or in the east. Moreover independent entities will have to be allowed to maintain their military, which even if without native resources will still be suppllied by the Saudis or other friends of erstwhile TSP. Unless we remove the basis for TSP concept, its religion based two-nation theory, it will continue to bite us, and it will have full covert or overt backing by the enemies of India.

I have already suggested that Punjab should be unified under Indian control and our Sikh brothers can help in the "reconstruction/repairing" of social and economic damages (they have the historical right and duty to do this, as well as perhaps being the best qualified). Sind has to be incorporated to protect the only substantial surving non-Muslim population on current TSP soil. Moreover, Sind as part of India blocks the sea-route from Indian Ocean up to the north. Unified Punjab blocks NWFP push downwards, and makes it more manageable in case of what I consider to be inevitable - an ultimate showdown between India and the Talebjabis now waiting to push east into India from their central heartland for the neo-caliphate. This also helps secure unified Kashmir.

Leaving these areas out of India, will inevitably lead them to continue to be source of pain and blood letting of innocent Indians.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Mar 2009 07:04

Surinder, Bulk of thePuke army comes from few districts in Pakjab. Destroy, liquidate these districts and occupy Lahore plus Nanakana Sahib, rest of the Bakwasistan will disintegarte automatically and Sindhi, Balochi, Pathans will go their own way. Better if we can integrate them economically with India .

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Mar 2009 08:07

Prem wrote:Surinder, Bulk of thePuke army comes from few districts in Pakjab. Destroy, liquidate these districts and occupy Lahore plus Nanakana Sahib, rest of the Bakwasistan will disintegarte automatically and Sindhi, Balochi, Pathans will go their own way. Better if we can integrate them economically with India .

On the topic of occupying Pakistan militarily for long periods or even permanently I doubt if it can be done in our lifetimes. But that does not mean some other type of integration is impossible or unlikely.

Military occupation necessarily means subjugation - even ruthless killing of opposition and a massive exodus of refugees. Let alone the cost imposed on the civilians of the area being occupied, there is a high cost in military manpower terms if one is talking of "occupying and controlling" every square centimeter of territory. Furthermore - even if some military does do this type of occupation - it gives a third power an excuse to attack the occupying military with gay abandon using everything they have got. As a result militaries typically have to control small "centers or power" from which they can (at best) radiate out at will and exert hegemony on surrounding areas of population. And those surrounding area will serve as havens for resistance.

This is exactly the pattern that we saw in France in WW2, Vietnam. Bangladesh, Iraq and Afghanistan. In every case the military that tried to control large areas was defeated by another military that came in and played merry hell with the occupying force.

We cannot ask the Indian armed forces to occupy Pakjab for more than a few weeks at most after which a civilian administration needs to be set up in which Pakjabis continue to live in their villages and towns with an ability to get water, food and other essentials. Such a population is most likely to live in peace if they see the Indian army as "saviours" rather than invaders.

My reading of the situation in Pakistan and Pakjab is that they still have not seen enough bloodshed and death to want to be saved by anyone. Pakistan is a big country and needs to see widespread killing and an impossible refugee situation over large parts of the country before the start thinking of being "rescued" by someone. Right now Pakis still think all is well and Allah is winning and since Allah is on their side - Pakistan is winning. Recall that Pakistan has one weapon per every 3 adult males in the population. The bloodshed we have seen so far in Pakistan is far faaar less than those weapons can cause if they really start getting used.

Typically nations that have welcomed "rescue" by an external military have seen miilions of genocide deaths. That needs to start in Pakistan. It may sound horrible for readers to see me stating that genocide "needs to start" in Pakistan. But I have two points to make

a) Unless that genocide starts the "receptivity" of a Pakistani to rescue would remain low
b) We need not do anything for a genocide to start. It may not start - but if it does start we must do nothing to stop it until Pakis beg to be rescued.

I need to see Allah winning some really good victories.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Mar 2009 08:13

Despite our tendency to be critical of India and Indian government - we are basically a law-abiding land. If at all we end up controlling any parts of present day Pakistan, we can perhaps have a temporary arrangement to consider the people there as aliens under occupation or something. But if there is any desire to integrate them into India, they will have to be given equal rights as other Indian citizens.

Imagine what that will do to our brand of vote bank politics?

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 28 Mar 2009 08:26

People have made it clear that Pakistan is the major threat to any rise in Indian power, but I remembe Vadivelu commenting that this thinking was outdated and that it represented vain fantasies (on both sides) to see the other country implode and disintegrate. Essentially, he made the point that terrorism is ultimately (however sick it sounds) not important because only a miniscule number of people will die - not enough to slow the economy or create regional/cast/communal differences. The Indian economy and good governance internally will save India, not the destruction/bifurcation/cutting into pieces of Pakistan.

What are the main reasons why Pakistan is an obstacle to India as a power? And not just geopolitically, but culturally, economically, etc.?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Mar 2009 08:38

Shivji, by continued occupation I did not mean purely military occupation. Occupation in the sense of Indian administration as in federally administered Union territories. Electoral processes at the province level would be risky until the theologians have been reduced, but some degree of local self-government can be carefully experimented with. A military reversal could destroy the base of TSP in more ways than one - at least in one direction it inverts the Islamic/TSP/Jihadi logic that they can get away with violence on the Kafir because Allah wills it, and implies that such a reversal is also Allah's will.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Mar 2009 08:46

Keshav wrote:
What are the main reasons why Pakistan is an obstacle to India as a power? And not just geopolitically, but culturally, economically, etc.?

I have for long suspected that Pakistan is the reason why India is becoming powerful. A nation has to face a threat before it understands the value of a separate identity.

What I want to write is perhaps too long for the time available now - but in brief, I believe that "Hindus" had no sense of nation and oneness until occupying powers came into India. But India's relatively peaceful march to freedom under an unbelievably clever and scheming bania called Gandhi - coming at a time when the entire world was tired of war, left Indians under the impression that cultural and economic strength does not need a matching military strength for survival. While China woke us out of this stupor, it was Pakistan's action, supported by global geopolitics, and Pakistan's ability to stay prominent in the eyes of the Indian, that have led to India pulling ahead as an economic-cultural-military power.

I have said this once before - and let me say it again. I doubt if nations like the US, China or anyone else understand what kind of power India will wield after is has gone past its Pakistan obsession. Pakistan's belligerence gives India a cause celebre for arming itself while doggedly clinging on to the principles that independent India is thought to embody.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Mar 2009 08:52

brihaspati wrote:Shivji, by continued occupation I did not mean purely military occupation. Occupation in the sense of Indian administration as in federally administered Union territories. Electoral processes at the province level would be risky until the theologians have been reduced, but some degree of local self-government can be carefully experimented with. A military reversal could destroy the base of TSP in more ways than one - at least in one direction it inverts the Islamic/TSP/Jihadi logic that they can get away with violence on the Kafir because Allah wills it, and implies that such a reversal is also Allah's will.

My personal view on any sort of political integration of the cesspool into India will have to be preceded by a test period in which the province/area that needs integration shows that it is able to implement democratic politics, with elections and regular changes of government and no feudal goondagiri. I would expect that for an area as large as Pakjab or Sindh - the "probation period" for re-invigorating democracy would be about 25 to 30 years.

It also means that all militia have to be disarmed and the theologians defanged. Not an easy task and theologians may have to be sent to "re-indoctination camps". But I would like to see patriotic Indian Muslims setting up the infrastructure for such re-education of rabid theologians.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Mar 2009 09:14

Shivji makes a most valid point - vote bank politics. One of the reasons, I was against full regular electoral process at the "state" level initially. We also need time to sort our "original house" meanwhile.

Keshavji,

TSP adds to the costs of India in more ways than one, apart from the most obvious ones such as enhanced defence outlays and the human costs of constant low intensity border conflict as well as TSP sponsored terrorism.

But its real damage is what it does to the foundations of the Indian nation.

As long as TSP continues to exist, it is the flag of success and sense of permanence or legitimacy for the two nation theory. It is the embodiment of the claim that the Indian nation is not the sole ideological and existential entity of relevance for the subcontinent, but that there are equal if not louder, claims for the hearts and minds of the subcontinental populations. This dispute by TSP is based on a false reconstruction of history, but the longer it exists, the more it gains legitimacy as with every other processes in history.

The second foundational damage is on the body politic of the nation. Existence of the TSP profoundly changes the basis of Indian political interactions. The Congress has used the existence of TSP to essentially develop the vote-bank/appeasement politics. TSP belligerence, and persistent memory of partition or later atrocities is a constant reminder in many Hindus and Sikhs of the potentials of Jihad. The Congress can use this to tell IM that the Hindus or Sikhs would simply tear the IM limb by limb if they got half a chance. So it was important for the IM to support Cong exclusively. Assuming that a full Hindu consolidation would be against Congress interest, the Congress can actually raise a whole lot of spectres before the "Hindu" - any Hindu consolidation will alarm the TSP or the IM or both and may push them together in a cross border Islamic bloc. Similarly any attack on TSP could tilt the IM to foght or bat for the TSP, and hence TSP needs to be preserved and maintained. In all this Congress can claim to be the only group which if in power will serve no-one's interests and therefore the best choice for all concerned.

It is the elite, semi-feudal, and colonial lackey political power class of both TSP and India who need desperately the separate existence of the "two nations" - for each can use this division to continue in power.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 28 Mar 2009 09:25

brihaspati wrote:Assuming that a full Hindu consolidation would be against Congress interest, the Congress can actually raise a whole lot of spectres before the "Hindu" - any Hindu consolidation will alarm the TSP or the IM or both and may push them together in a cross border Islamic bloc. Similarly any attack on TSP could tilt the IM to foght or bat for the TSP, and hence TSP needs to be preserved and maintained. In all this Congress can claim to be the only group which if in power will serve no-one's interests and therefore the best choice for all concerned.

You don't seriously believe that any attempts at destroying Pakistan would cause Indian Muslims to bat for for Pakistan or cause Partition-type riots, do you?

Not only does it seem cynical but farfetched. What attachment does the current generation of IM have for Pakistan?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 28 Mar 2009 09:52

Keshav wrote: What attachment does the current generation of IM have for Pakistan?

Plenty it would seem for a significant minority. One only has to read someone like Fareed Zakaria to realize this attachment exists.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 28 Mar 2009 09:58

There are too many forces rallying around the one sliver known as TSP. For what was a classical game between the Russians and English played in Afghanistan has now turned into a multi player game. US, UK, Russia, China, Iran, India and of course Pakistan.

1. Iran and India need to have a land bridge through a contiguous Shia region running through Afghanistan to Iran.
2. India and Russia need to have land bridge going more or less north. Afghanistan/Tajik/Uzbek/Khazak. These connections need to be made.

The solutions to both these problems lies in the return of PoK.
Once this is done, Pak dissolves into oblivion faster.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 28 Mar 2009 10:07

vera_k wrote:
Keshav wrote: What attachment does the current generation of IM have for Pakistan?
Plenty it would seem for a significant minority. One only has to read someone like Fareed Zakaria to realize this attachment exists.

A dialog with a fresher yesterday, in the office lounge. He is an IM, works in a development team that writes control system for NTPC, comes from a "moderate family", dad is a CID officer in one of the BIMARU states.

Him: Sir, look at the Varun Gandhi's speech. BJP is dead.
Me: Hmm

Him: Such an backward ideology (BJP).
Me: (No reaction).

Him: Media is so biased, they are brainwash people.
Me: Okay, how ? (I'm bit hopeful).

Him: All wrong reports about Pakistan?
Me: Like?

Him: You know Pakistani GDP was 5.x % last year and Indian GDP was just 1% ahead 6.x % something. But see how they call only India as a rising power and Pakistan a failing state.
Me: But GDP comparison does not makes sense here (frantically scanning the business papers lying there to get my hands on the correct figures), they get all kinds of grants, handouts, debts written off...

Him: (Interrupting me) They also have less number of people below poverty line, more mobile handsets, PC and internet penetration.
Me: (Spilling my coffee in disgust) Hmm...better off than us, must be a good place to live?
Him: Well...

>>

Sorry gents I'll not even try to venture into IM ghettos to find out.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Mar 2009 10:15

Go On IM website and Ulema folks spare no chance in giving benefit to Pakistan or Saudia. A Gujarati Muslim tried to convince me that support for Ram mandir is sin and just like IM website ulema, wanted Middle Eastern countries to interfere in Indian affairs on behalf of IMs. When i told him that by doing so they become subject to Strategic retalaition in case of war , he just gave me blank look. All this when i was doing him a favour to drop him at home.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 28 Mar 2009 12:46

The Muslims in Indian subcontinent make up a significant fraction. It is about 450 million people in all. The problem is their ideology and not the people themselves.

The problem with Islamic ideology is that it is like a brain parasite which influences the very actions which go against the interests of selfish genes.

The only solution to this problem is removal or Arabic influence of Islam from Indian subcontinent. This can either be done by
1) reformation, kemalization and Indianization of Islam as ideology and that reformed ideology forced upon all Muslims in subcontinent.
2) Removal of Muslims from Subcontinent - either by relocation or extermination.

Option 2 is a great loss to Indian gene-pool. What is seen throughout the history of our civilization of Bhaarat is that Bhaarat has always preserved its gene-pool and core ideology in spite of all the changes. Despite of all countless migrations, the gene-pool of India remains fairly constant and Uniform throughout the course of History.

The preservation of Core-values of Bhaaratiya civilization and Gene-pool of population cannot be compromised upon. Removal of such a huge section of population will not be beneficial for India as the overall diversity available in gene-pool will reduce. Many Muslims came to India from outside and their progeny does contain lot of valuable variants of genes which adds to the richness of Indian gene pool in terms of phenotypes. This ensures higher fertility. Societies with diminished gene-pools tend to shrink with time.

Hence the only feasible option is Kemalization and Indianization of Indian Islam. For that to happen, Indic people need to be socially, politically clubbed together under one denomination which will ensure the presence of separate Indic identity which is dominant over foreign Muslim identity. And for this to happen, the existence of Pakistan is essential.

Pakistan, in current times, provides Indics a reason to come together and rediscover their roots and heritage and identity. It is slowly serving this purpose. When Indics are sufficiently awakened, IM absorption will start and so will elimination of Pakistan. The more fanatic Pakistan becomes, the more they ensure that Indics come together and rediscover their heritage. Along with that, they ensure the alienation IM from Paki Muslims.

The more IM are alienated from Paki-Muslims, the more they will draw close to Indics and more strong the Indic conglomerate become. Which in turn cause society of Pakistan to grow more fanatic in order to maintain their separate identity. This cannot go beyond certain point and their reason of separate existence slowly starts decreasing.

Islam lingering in modern India is result of our own Karma. This is the Karma-fala of deeds of our own ancestors who did not act upon chance and reconvert Muslims back to Indic faiths, when they had chance. It is just that we pay this Karma-Vipaaka and rid ourselves of this baggage.

Although this is easy with Pakistan, what particularly worries me is Bangladeshi Muslims. Their urge of separate existence is not as fanatic as Pakistan. They are much more comfortable with their Bangla-identity than Pakjabis. But this Bangla-identity of bangladeshi muslims and their relation with Indian bengalees is not as crystalline as the one between a Punjabi and a Pakjabi. Thus, Bengal (province as a whole, not just WB) will remain a lingering pain in India's ass for much longer time than Pakjab.

The Islam in Bengal is a curious case, which is somewhat Indianized but got too comfortable with this slight Indianization that it will resist total Indianization with much greater virulence. They are neither completely Arabic, not completely Indian, even in their minds. Hence, Bengal requires totally different strategy than Pakistan when it comes to Indianization of Islamic ideology.

The regions where Vedic civilization prospered and Vedic influence was very high at some point of time in Pre-Islamic History, will not in any case stay away from Indic influence for long time. The reason I am worried about Bengal is, in pre-Islamic India, the influence of vedic and/or Astika philosophies was not very strong in Bengal. Hence even Adi-Sankara did not venture into Bengal to establish his seminary. The eastern Bengal somehow was not heavily influenced by Orthodox Astika philosophies for long time. It was predominantly under influence of Buddhist and other Naastika philosophies which somehow rise above geographical boundaries of Bhaarat. Buddhism, is an export version of Indic civilization, which works extremely well as individual philosophy in India OR a popular religion outside India.

The regions where Buddhism was a popular mass-religion inside subcontinent in pre-islamic India, not only became Islamic quickly, but also severed their ties with vedic and orthodox ideologies of Indic civilization which were already very weak. Out of all the philosophies generated by Indic civilization, the orthodox Astika philosophies inculcate strong allegiance towards Bhaarat and aversion towards foreign invading cultures owing to deep-rooted Varna system and Ashrama System. Bengal was not under Astika influence on eve of Bakhtiar Khilji's invasion. And I guess it was never under strong Astika influence, particularly eastern bengal, ever in history of Bhaarat. This is not the case with Punjab and Sindh. There is not much Astika past to call upon BD muslims. Pakjabi and Sindhi muslims cannot run away from the fact for long time that they are sitting upon the region of IVC, saraswati civilization and Vedic civilization. That they are living in highly revered region of Sapta-Sindhu. This is not the case with Bangladeshi Muslims.

Hence, in any case, Bhaarat and Bharatiya civilization will not take any steps of removal of gene-pool regarding Pakjab which will lead to loss of gene-pool. I hope similar response will be taken by Bhaartiya civilization towards Bengal.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 28 Mar 2009 14:36

^^

Bengal seems to have a disproportionately high share in regeneration of Hinduism in our modern history in form of reform movements. The refromers (probably except Ram Mohan Roy, who found some thing good in church like organization) never strayed away from their Vedic heritage. Of course, we have Swami Vivekananda; few can parallel his contribution in modern period of our history. The legacy is right down upto Shyama Prasad Mukherjee.

So, what you are largely true, but there seems to be some more layer of complexity. Even I'm not sure what it is. May be we should dig more in the histories of the Eastern states.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 28 Mar 2009 14:50

Chiron wrote: The reason I am worried about Bengal is, in pre-Islamic India, the influence of vedic and/or Astika philosophies was not very strong in Bengal. Hence even Adi-Sankara did not venture into Bengal to establish his seminary. The eastern Bengal somehow was not heavily influenced by Orthodox Astika philosophies for long time. It was predominantly under influence of Buddhist and other Naastika philosophies which somehow rise above geographical boundaries of Bhaarat. Buddhism, is an export version of Indic civilization, which works extremely well as individual philosophy in India OR a popular religion outside India.

The regions where Buddhism was a popular mass-religion inside subcontinent in pre-islamic India, not only became Islamic quickly, but also severed their ties with vedic and orthodox ideologies of Indic civilization which were already very weak.

Bengal was lost under Hindu king Laksman Sena. On the other hand the Buddhist Pala Kings were imperialist, a look at the Pala extent at their peak power will tell us. What really happened is that Khilji invasion happened too quick.

Assuming there had been a long period of time after the power went from the Palas to the Senas, would have the local populations reverted back to their Vedic practices under state patronage?

It is just a hypothesis, but if it can be proved then we may have a policy framework for future.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Mar 2009 16:59

Keshav wrote
You don't seriously believe that any attempts at destroying Pakistan would cause Indian Muslims to bat for for Pakistan or cause Partition-type riots, do you?

The sentence was a continuation of the possible arguments that Congress can use to scare the "Hindu". I did not say that "I " believe that the IM will behave so. At the same time, my time with various IM levels tells me, that the reaction is going to be mixed. There will be a strong component, albeit minority, but a determined minority at that which can ultimately mobilize most of IM in favour of "protecting Islam" (read protect fallback option for the Ulema- Pakistan) depending on circumstances.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 28 Mar 2009 17:35

SRoy wrote:Bengal was lost under Hindu king Laksman Sena. On the other hand the Buddhist Pala Kings were imperialist, a look at the Pala extent at their peak power will tell us. What really happened is that Khilji invasion happened too quick.

Assuming there had been a long period of time after the power went from the Palas to the Senas, would have the local populations reverted back to their Vedic practices under state patronage?

It is just a hypothesis, but if it can be proved then we may have a policy framework for future.

SRoy Ji,

1. The conquest of Bengal was a slow process which carried on for few decades.

2. Lakshman Sen was ruler when Bakhtiyar Khilji conquered major chunk of Bengal in 1203 AD.

3. Senas ruled from 1070 AD-1220 AD.

4. Vedic culture was not given state patronage until middle years of Lakshmana Sen. In Lakshmana's reign, he gave patronage to Jayadev, the composer of Geeta-Govinda and enforced Varna-System and Ashrama system in Bengal for the first time after about 400 years. The latter is denotes state patronage to Vedic culture. That means Vedic way of life was given patronage about 20 years before conquest by Khilji. If there was resentment in established Buddhists, this might have worked in favour of Sufis. It usually takes patronage of a strong king OR dynasty for long durations of time for any way of life to be inculcated in common man. And the established order always resents because they lose the perks.

5. Lot of conversions in Bengal were by Sufi mystics coupled with of course the usual well-known means. It is curious how come mysticism of Sufism lured the followers of Buddhist philosophy, which is million times more esoteric than Sufism.

6. In any case, Buddhism was main philosophy which was practised. It was patronized generously during Pala rule. Palas were also followers of Vaishnava tradition and Tantra tradition, just like Harsha-Vardhana was a Buddhist and a Shaiva.

7. Islam in Bengal has remained a queer exception to fanaticism of Islam in Rest of India, until partition riots. They worship lot many Indic deities like Dekkhanray, Oladebi etc ... They did not accept foreign language or script or dress-code. But they accepted Islam en masse without any ideological resistance whatsoever.

8. All this makes it very tempting to say that Bengalee Islam is way ahead on path of Indianization, which is although a reality, but a misleading one. The very fact that they supported two nation theory proves that they are equally placed as Western Pakistan.

9. The Indic reformation started in Bengal true. But was Ramkrishna Paramahans and Swami Vivekanand popular in East Bengal, as he was in Rest of India? Same question can be asked for Raja Rammohan Ray, Devendranath Thakur, and other reformists.

Yes, it is much more complicated than Western Islam. The presence of Buddhists and subsequently Muslims in large numbers in NWFP and East Bengal is lack of strong Vedic traditions among populations. Ironically, in both NWFP and Bengal, a weak Hindu (Astik/Orthodox) dynasty which followed a strong Buddhist empire, fought invading Muslim Kings. The "Hindu" Shahiya dynasty of Gaandhar and Kekay(NWFP and Afghanistan) replaced Turk Shahiya which ruled for long time and fervently patronised Mahayana Buddhism. Hence majority were Buddhists in those regions. Same is case in Bengal where weaker "Hindu" Sen dynasty replaced a strong Paal dynasty who vehemently patronized Mahayana Buddhism for long time, and hence majority of population was Buddhist.

IMHO, to tackle with populations of BD and NWFP, we have to follow the Prati-Prasava technique of Patanjali's Ashtaanga-Yoga. Patanjali says, it is impossible to suppress any tendency of mind by force. It is also waste of time and energy. Instead, it should slowly be taken towards its birth (Prati Prasava - Towards origin). Once we slowly go on reducing the vikaar under consideration, it eventually becomes small and feeble as it was during its birth. Only after reaching this stage, can a tendency of mind be rectified and eliminated.

The Indianization of BD and NWFP has to follow the Prati-Prasava strategy of Patanjali, who ironically was from NWFP

Removal of militant Islam must be followed by Buddhist ideology. Only after decades of Buddhist life style, should orthodox schools be allowed to enter that region. Early entrance of so called "Hindu-Schools" will only create tensions and resentments. I guess this strategy can be used in Indian scenario as well. Once Arabic culture is purged, Islam will become an Indic religion and yet will maintain its philosophical and ideological core.

Prati-Prasava will also work towards solution of Pakistan. Pakjab will be last to fall. The weaker bastions fell first (BD).

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Mar 2009 17:36

Bengal is a complicated case. I have myself long ago raised the hypothesis of the Buddhist "softness" towards Islam and questioned the prevalent wisdom. The main weakness if Ahimsa or non-violence, appears to be questionable. For the Palas and other patrons of Buddhism seem to have no problem with violence in their expansion or defence agenda. This remains true for the small "Buddhist" kingdoms that fell before Islam in Eastern and northern Bengal. (Dont fall for the propaganda that the Sufi's and other Muslim "saints" like Shah Jalal "converted" all by "charm" - almost all carried on military raids, and abducted women for marriage - and they had to fight militarily to overcome these "ahimsa kings"). Moreover, Srihatta or modern Sylhet had considerable influence of Shaivas and Vaishnavites. Same is true of the eastern margin of current BD. Further note that Islamic conversion seems to be in areas further away from the launching board of the Islamic expansion from the west. The main power centres of Islam ranged along the western fringe of Bengal.

Barddhaman, for example had long Jain, Buddhist, Shaiva and Vaishnavite presence and most of the long established family grouos here would have all four influences in their religious practices (as sublayers). This is one of the most productive regions even from before so-called British "canal" improvement. The area figures in references as early as the period of Sasanka, and seems to have come under the dominance of the Ugras. Various denigratory representations by Brahminical scholars made me curious about them. Some of the "elite" I researched had non-local anthropoligical features, private religious practices, and affiliations to the north and far north of India. Needs further research for there were hints of opposition to Laxmana Sena's "excesses" and a possible role in facilitating the Muslims. But the Ugras still dominated the region, and appeared to have kept the Muslim power at bay.

It could be more a case of longstanding class and ethnic conflicts that was exploited by Muslim invaders, and less of religious "weaknesses". I will try to post more later on this. However, Bengal is potentially the most promising experiment in absorption of Islam. We can see the effects of strong cultural identifications gradually increasingly asserting itself over unquestioned Islamic identification in BD. Most of the "milder" and "Indicized" IM I have seen hail from West Bengal. And perhaps also the region where I found more of the "reverse" flow of women from IM to "Hindu" through marriages, so uncharacteristic of the rest of India as far as IM is concerned - a phenomenon of great significance for Islam for those who are aware.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2009 22:59

Iberia was lost to Europe for ~ five centuries. This need for take back in one lifetime is a silly goal. The areas now constituting TSP were lost over a millenium. And tim eis on India's side. The islamist resurgences is a reactionary movement to the 'losses' to the West. And as all reactions will be temporary.

If the goal is one lifetime then there has to be a catastropheic event. Not sure about that. US is bankrunpt but printing notes to prop up TSP. Think of the drive that spurs that move.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2009 23:04

Brishapatiji, Regarding the areas of North India that went awol, please do read HRC's "political history from Parkshit to Guptas". its clear that there were groups of people who were not integrated into the mainstream and these dissenters were the ones to adopt new politico-religious ideas to keep their separateness.
Read the part about the history of the period between janapadas to Ashoka in that book. Its liked in the distorted history thread.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Mar 2009 02:22

Ramana Sir ,
Life is full of surprises . The Pakjab area was lost physically onlee in 47 and there wont be any problem in Pakjab which cannot be handled with liquidation at first sign of distubance. Nalwa did that and we know , going by their psyche, Pakjabis has no inner strength otherwise they would not have converted and boasted about their parental rape and throat slicing.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Mar 2009 04:07

Ramanaji,

I understand your caution. But sometimes things that have accummulated over centuries get washed away in the twinkling of an eye. The Iberian example itself, if you think of it - from the first defeat of the Islamics at the hands of Charles Martel in France, to their final expulsion were more than five centuries, true. But their final expulsion happened very rapidly, practically speaking almost within a single lifetime.

The best time for absorption was perhaps right after the partition, probably in the middle or towards the end of it. A national leader who could have demanded and received the support of a substantial section of the Indian armed forces, as well as the people, could have led India to reassert its claim all over the subcontinent under a single nation. But the world situation is changing rapidly, and who knows what is brewing in the future! It is possible that TSP itself can precipitate the crisis, by attacking India out of desperation, or its handlers will manipulate it to do so.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 29 Mar 2009 04:40

I too believe in a slow and steady approach. We should not take in pakistan as long as it is islamic. Islamism can be dormant and rear its ugly head even after centuries.

--hanumadu

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Mar 2009 06:15

Chiron wrote:

The Indianization of BD and NWFP has to follow the Prati-Prasava strategy of Patanjali, who ironically was from NWFP

Removal of militant Islam must be followed by Buddhist ideology. Only after decades of Buddhist life style, should orthodox schools be allowed to enter that region. Early entrance of so called "Hindu-Schools" will only create tensions and resentments. I guess this strategy can be used in Indian scenario as well.

Once Arabic culture is purged, Islam will become an Indic religion and yet will maintain its philosophical and ideological core.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Mar 2009 06:30

Gone through this de-Arabization of Indian Islam before. Not possible. Have to read the Quran and the Hadiths to see that it is rooted firmly in 7th century Arabia. Take the Arab out of Islam and Islam has nothing left in it. We have to remember that the Abrahamic is based purely on claims of historical events - and in this case it is history of 7th century Arabia. Without its histrocial claims, Abrahamic has no religion - no faith. To be Indianized, Indian Islam has to take on components of Indic past and socio-historical pre-Islamic experience. Which of course means that the essential revelatory message firmly rooted in a narrative of claimed history in the middle east gets removed. Will that be Islam at all? I don't think so. I don't see why the "other" faiths could not be tried out. But there are sociological reasons to believe that a simplified but another branch of the Abrahamic would be the preferred choice by such Muslim communities and not Buddhism. A rule based faith will typically look for a similar rule based faith that clearly instructs what to do and saves calculation loads, as replacement. I would say, a congregational and crowd-psychedelic trance inducing "Bhakti-cult" could have greater success. Not joking, NimaiPandita in Bengal apparently had Muslims like "Yavana Haridas" crying out to join his "nama - samkirtana".

I have participated in some of these "ecstatic" rallys as a teen on visits - and seen the effect, even on Muslims.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 29 Mar 2009 07:15

Yes, Bhakti path is also extremely potent faith. Although it originated in form of Alvar saints of Tamil nadu much before Adi Sankara himself, most of the evolution of Bhakti tradition has been in post Islamic Bhaarat. Bhakti helped Bhaarat turn into a staunchly theist society better equipped to tackle the Monotheistic Abrahmic cultural invasion. In the process, it beautifully preserved the Agnostic core of true Bhaaratiya philosophy.

Just that, Bhakti is closely related to idol worship. Saguna Bhakti is comparatively more popular than Nirguna Bhakti. This saguna aspect irks Muslims. They should not have problems with calling Allah as for example, Vishnu, but they will have strict objection on portraying Vishnu as a dude with 4 hands and one resting on bed of Shesha. But that is extremely far fetched.

This is not at all I intend to convey when I advocate Indianization of Muslims. I am talking about more mundane things to begin with.

1. Using Nagari or other Indian script for writing their language.

2. Reading their scriptures in Indian script and languages (any of them)

3. Dressing like majority of people in their neighbourhood dress. If you read Quran, Saari qualifies all the requirements of a Hijab. Quran does not recommend Burqa, it recommends Hijab, which is a dress which covers most of the body of female and head. A Saari with pallu on head (typical dress of post Islamic Indic women, perhaps evolved from this requirement of Hijab) and/or a Salwar kameez fulfils that criteria. The emphasis on Burqa is nothing but male chauvinism. Until recently, women folk of elite families in Kerala did not cover their upper part of body. This was the norm of Bharatiya society. I guess, this emphasis on covering whole body came in Islamic rule and jaziya.

4. Naming their children with Indian names. If they can name their child as Parvez and Faraz which are zoroastrian names and equally Kufr ones, they have no moral right to object to name like "Mohan", or "Akshay" or for that matter even "Brihaspati"

5. Referring to god (allah) in Sanskritized names. Christians call god as Prabhu, Ishwar.. Nothing Un-Islamic in that.

6. And lastly, accepting that non-muslims are here to stay and they share same historical and cultural lineage with Indics. The Vedic doctrine of "Eko Sat, Vipra Bahuda Vadanti" - Truth is one, but wise men refer to it by different names. If this one statement of RV is wholeheartedly accepted by every Muslim in Bhaarat, and other mundane things mentioned above are given up, Islam is nothing different from Dvaita Vedanta.

Honestly, Shaiva and Vaishnava religions have shared much more intense rivalry with each other throughout Indian history. They even send the followers of each other to Hell. Same is with Astika schools and Naastika schools. Shaktas, Tantriks, Atheists like Samkhya, Nyaya, Mimamsa, Yoga and theists like vedanta have called each other everything ranging from a fool to a stairway to hell. They have been the bitterest critics of each other. They however kept discussion on debate "Vyaas-Peeth" and followed Eko Sat Vipra Bahuda Vadanti unanimously, without doubt. The only reason why these dichotomies did not result in persistent tensions in everyday life was the tacit acceptance of Vedic verse which I quoted.

Furthermore, irrespective of belief system, the Dharma of every individual remained unchanged. All these dichotomies are related to Moksha/Nirvana aspect of life, not Dharma, Artha and kaama aspects. This can be expected from IM but in quite distant future, not immediately. Perhaps, if these 6 things happen, rest will follow with time. For these 6 things to seep in, Bharatiya civilization needs to apply the pressure.

None of these things, IMHO, are impossible and too much to ask from a society which has been living in Bhaarat for more than 1300 years now.. They could not repeat their Persian performance in Bhaarat in spite of their stay of 1300 years here, they lost their chance. Now, they must be made to follow the rules of the game. Survival of fittest.

Ahmediya sect is Indic in origin. It recognizes Krishna as Islamic prophet. Bahai faith is similar mixture of Indic and Islamic faiths. It is only fanatic Wahabi and Deobandi hardliners which are pain in the ass.

None of these 6 things are in violation of Islam. This is bare minimum Bharatiya civilization expects from any foreign culture. It has always expected these things and it is just that these things are expected from IM as well. It is duty of IM to follow them and it is instinct of Bharatiya civilization to keep on smouldering until these basic requirements are met.

The Indic variant memes of Islam are available. They need to be selected and multiplied. More and more Indic variants of this philosophy will develop. Its natural selection. What is merely expected from Bharatiya paths is to apply selection pressure.

yogi · Post by **yogi** » 29 Mar 2009 08:28

Vast Spy System Loots Computers in 103 Countries

TORONTO — A vast electronic spying operation has infiltrated computers and has stolen documents from hundreds of government and private offices around the world, including those of the Dalai Lama, Canadian researchers have concluded.

In a report to be issued this weekend, the researchers said that the system was being controlled from computers based almost exclusively in China, but that they could not say conclusively that the Chinese government was involved.

The researchers, who are based at the Munk Center for International Studies at the University of Toronto, had been asked by the office of the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan leader whom China regularly denounces, to examine its computers for signs of malicious software, or malware.

Their sleuthing opened a window into a broader operation that, in less than two years, has infiltrated at least 1,295 computers in 103 countries, including many belonging to embassies, foreign ministries and other government offices, as well as the Dalai Lama’s Tibetan exile centers in India, Brussels, London and New York.

The researchers, who have a record of detecting computer espionage, said they believed that in addition to the spying on the Dalai Lama, the system, which they called GhostNet, was focused on the governments of South Asian and Southeast Asian countries.

Intelligence analysts say many governments, including those of China, Russia and the United States, and other parties use sophisticated computer programs to covertly gather information.

The newly reported spying operation is by far the largest to come to light in terms of countries affected.

This is also believed to be the first time researchers have been able to expose the workings of a computer system used in an intrusion of this magnitude.

Still going strong, the operation continues to invade and monitor more than a dozen new computers a week, the researchers said in their report, “Tracking ‘GhostNet’: Investigating a Cyber Espionage Network.” They said they had found no evidence that United States government offices had been infiltrated, although a NATO computer was monitored by the spies for half a day and computers of the Indian Embassy in Washington were infiltrated.

The malware is remarkable both for its sweep — in computer jargon, it has not been merely “phishing” for random consumers’ information, but “whaling” for particular important targets — and for its Big Brother-style capacities. It can, for example, turn on the camera and audio-recording functions of an infected computer, enabling monitors to see and hear what goes on in a room. The investigators say they do not know if this facet has been employed.

The researchers were able to monitor the commands given to infected computers and to see the names of documents retrieved by the spies, but in most cases the contents of the stolen files have not been determined. Working with the Tibetans, however, the researchers found that specific correspondence had been stolen and that the intruders had gained control of the electronic mail server computers of the Dalai Lama’s organization.

The electronic spy game has had at least some real-world impact, they said. For example, they said, after an e-mail invitation was sent by the Dalai Lama’s office to a foreign diplomat, the Chinese government made a call to the diplomat discouraging a visit. And a woman working for a group making Internet contacts between Tibetan exiles and Chinese citizens was stopped by Chinese intelligence officers on her way back to Tibet, shown transcripts of her online conversations and warned to stop her political activities.

The Toronto researchers said they had notified international law enforcement agencies of the spying operation, which in their view exposed basic shortcomings in the legal structure of cyberspace. The F.B.I. declined to comment on the operation.

Although the Canadian researchers said that most of the computers behind the spying were in China, they cautioned against concluding that China’s government was involved. The spying could be a nonstate, for-profit operation, for example, or one run by private citizens in China known as “patriotic hackers.”

“We’re a bit more careful about it, knowing the nuance of what happens in the subterranean realms,” said Ronald J. Deibert, a member of the research group and an associate professor of political science at Munk. “This could well be the C.I.A. or the Russians. It’s a murky realm that we’re lifting the lid on.”

A spokesman for the Chinese Consulate in New York dismissed the idea that China was involved. “These are old stories and they are nonsense,” the spokesman, Wenqi Gao, said. “The Chinese government is opposed to and strictly forbids any cybercrime.”

The Toronto researchers, who allowed a reporter for The New York Times to review the spies’ digital tracks, are publishing their findings in Information Warfare Monitor, an online publication associated with the Munk Center.

At the same time, two computer researchers at Cambridge University in Britain who worked on the part of the investigation related to the Tibetans, are releasing an independent report. They do fault China, and they warned that other hackers could adopt the tactics used in the malware operation.

“What Chinese spooks did in 2008, Russian crooks will do in 2010 and even low-budget criminals from less developed countries will follow in due course,” the Cambridge researchers, Shishir Nagaraja and Ross Anderson, wrote in their report, “The Snooping Dragon: Social Malware Surveillance of the Tibetan Movement.”

In any case, it was suspicions of Chinese interference that led to the discovery of the spy operation. Last summer, the office of the Dalai Lama invited two specialists to India to audit computers used by the Dalai Lama’s organization. The specialists, Greg Walton, the editor of Information Warfare Monitor, and Mr. Nagaraja, a network security expert, found that the computers had indeed been infected and that intruders had stolen files from personal computers serving several Tibetan exile groups.

Back in Toronto, Mr. Walton shared data with colleagues at the Munk Center’s computer lab.

One of them was Nart Villeneuve, 34, a graduate student and self-taught “white hat” hacker with dazzling technical skills. Last year, Mr. Villeneuve linked the Chinese version of the Skype communications service to a Chinese government operation that was systematically eavesdropping on users’ instant-messaging sessions.

Early this month, Mr. Villeneuve noticed an odd string of 22 characters embedded in files created by the malicious software and searched for it with Google. It led him to a group of computers on Hainan Island, off China, and to a Web site that would prove to be critically important.

In a puzzling security lapse, the Web page that Mr. Villeneuve found was not protected by a password, while much of the rest of the system uses encryption.

Mr. Villeneuve and his colleagues figured out how the operation worked by commanding it to infect a system in their computer lab in Toronto. On March 12, the spies took their own bait. Mr. Villeneuve watched a brief series of commands flicker on his computer screen as someone — presumably in China — rummaged through the files. Finding nothing of interest, the intruder soon disappeared.

Through trial and error, the researchers learned to use the system’s Chinese-language “dashboard” — a control panel reachable with a standard Web browser — by which one could manipulate the more than 1,200 computers worldwide that had by then been infected.

Infection happens two ways. In one method, a user’s clicking on a document attached to an e-mail message lets the system covertly install software deep in the target operating system. Alternatively, a user clicks on a Web link in an e-mail message and is taken directly to a “poisoned” Web site.

The researchers said they avoided breaking any laws during three weeks of monitoring and extensively experimenting with the system’s unprotected software control panel. They provided, among other information, a log of compromised computers dating to May 22, 2007.

They found that three of the four control servers were in different provinces in China — Hainan, Guangdong and Sichuan — while the fourth was discovered to be at a Web-hosting company based in Southern California.

Beyond that, said Rafal A. Rohozinski, one of the investigators, “attribution is difficult because there is no agreed upon international legal framework for being able to pursue investigations down to their logical conclusion, which is highly local.”

In my view this is a serious breach. I couldn't find an appropriate thread to post. Maybe we should start a separate thread for Cyber warfare, and how such foreign spying operations could be used to flood the enemy with false information.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 29 Mar 2009 11:13

brihaspati wrote:Rudradevji,
Second almost all your details. There is one thing which I think however should not be reduced in importance to explain future Brit behaviour. Their position in between ideologically over racial viewpoint from one extreme of the Saxonic/Germanic on mainland Europe to the other extreme (extremes possible within the basic European mindset, whose most "liberal" could still be quite extreme racist from our viewpoints) on American soil. It is this inherent racist shortsightedness in strategic thinking that forced them ultimately to relinquish direct control over the colonies where they had failed to change the demographic picture in favour of the "white British". Just imagine, if only they had allowed the Indian elite like Motilal to aspire and get coopted into the real power stratucture at the topmost levels - they might still be happily ruling in India.

...

We have to think of a purge of the "Anglo" from the Indian state. Emotions, feelings of servility and courtiership as expressed by MMS in his Oxford speech indicate the level of ideological subservience our elite has towards the British. Its a pity though that I have to write this in English - for we hate each others Indic languages much more than the alien colonizer's language.

Brihaspatiji,

Agree with your observations, and your conclusion about the need to purge the Trojan Horse of British Exceptionalism from our mindsets. Over the generations, those ideas were bred into the only class of Indians who were equipped with enough education and sufficient financial means to aspire to national leadership. They continue to exist in the psyche of that class, and manifest themselves at the most insidious of levels.

The manifestation isn't always what you'd expect. Certainly the point of view espoused by the "Secular" Media and its political godfathers is the more obvious side of the coin. It is embodied by the traditional Delhi Cocktail Circuit which tut-tuts sagaciously at the problems of the country while priding itself on the Oscar success of "Slumdog Millionaire", which celebrates Arundhati Roy and looks to the BBC as the final arbiter of truthful information in all matters Indian.

The other side of the SAME coin, also drawn from that same social level of education and financial means, is the Reactionary crew which peddles atavistic ultra-nationalist symbolism bereft of any substance, simply because it temporarily alleviates their feelings of desperate and utter helplessness. The Uber-Saffronites who think that eliminating Birthday Cakes and Valentine's Day Cards will somehow protect Hindu Culture, are a prize example of such Reactionaries. In flailing away at the paint on the walls on the outermost perimeter of the British Exceptional edifice, the Reactionaries only reveal their own ideological helplessness before that edifice, because in their own minds they are of the same British-spawned ruling class and endowed with the same notions of racial and cultural servility before the Great White Bahadur.

The Reactionaries, by behaving like obscene caricatures of "Hindoos", play straight into the hands of the global nexuses who use them to embarrass the Delhi Cocktail Circuit. This compels the Delhi Cocktail Circuit to exude still more sanctimonious patronization towards Indian civilization, and still more callow servility towards the West.

Before we can reform India we must reform what currently passes as "Hindutva" or the section of the political class that claims to stand for Hindus today. It is no guard dog... but a deaf, dumb and blind animal beaten too many times to count, that snaps unpredictably at passersby and defecates from time to time on the living room floor.

It should be noted that the seeds of such a reformation have been germinating, giving rise to a NEW elite class that has emerged as a consequence of India's transformation during the 1990s. As a result of our economic successes, a new group of technocrats and businessmen have begun rising to the same levels of influence as the Delhi Cocktail Circuit.

In terms of education and financial means, the denizens of this New Indian Elite are at least as well equipped as the political classes of the 60s, 70s and 80s to aspire to national leadership. Furthermore, they are of a generation which is entirely Indian in its epigenesis. They have received the British Exceptionalism indoctrination only second-hand, through NCERT textbooks. Their successes, on the other hand, are the result of purely Indian ingenuity and hard work. They have more reason to trust in the instrinsic abilities of Indian civilization... simply as a matter of direct experience... than in a mythical "gift of Western civilization" which has somehow enabled or empowered us.

Unlike the Delhi Cocktail Circuit, you would not hear these young technocrats and businessmen pointlessly demeaning India in comparison with the West every time they opened their mouths. As a result, they have not spawned a new-generation Reactionary group that feels compelled to defend even the indefensible problems that India must contend with. A political class capable of a degree of realism, appears to have arrived at last.

It is this New Indian Elite that certain leaders of the BJP had identified and were beginning to court towards the end of the NDA's term in office. They were the targets of Pramod Mahajan's "India Shining" campaign, viciously demeaned by Congress stooges with all the cynicism that the Delhi Cocktail Circuit and its "Secular" Media mouthpieces could bring to bear. Even the aging Mr. Vajapayee was cognizant of the coming change. Jai Jawan, Jai Kisan, Jai Vigyan, he said... and in that last phrase was a paean to the new technocrats.

Apart from the New Indian Elite, another new Indian political class which began appearing on the national state from the late 1980s onwards were the Satraps... leaders of regional origins whose strength derives from faithful local bases among electorally powerful segments of the population. I speak of the Laloos, Mulayams, Mayawatis and so on. These Satraps are not technocrats at all, and are in fact quite "uneducated" in formal terms when compared with the other classes of Indians who aspire to national leadership. However, this lack of "formal education" renders them as immune to the British Exceptionalism taint as the New Indian Elite of technocrats and businessmen. The Satraps' immunity derives from flying under the radar of global nexuses, while the immunity of the New Indian Elite derives from superlative achievement by international standards in the context of independent India.

Being closer to the grassroots, the Satraps burst onto the political arena much earlier than the New Indian Elite (who are only now beginning to make their presence felt there). We first saw them emerge during the Janata Dal movement of the late 1980s. They were an early hope of escape from the era when Indian political classes were enslaved across the board by a mindset given over to British Exceptionalism.

Yet, the Satraps could never seem to evolve a national vision beyond the confines of their own regional or social bases. They had more than one chance to cobble together a national government truly Indian in essence, deriving from the provinces and evolving to serve the interests of the nation as a whole. However, they completely messed it up every time because of their myopia, selfishness and greed. In this way, they fed once again into the "Hindoo" caricature of chaotic inability to self-govern, and further reinforced the British Exceptionalist mindset among the rest of the Indian elite. Even today the very idea of a "third front" government makes us squirm with a vision of sheer banditry, nepotism and non-performance.

I am thus very skeptical when someone like Shiv says that Mayawati would be an acceptable national leader... not because she is a Hindi speaker from a provincial and non-elite background, but because she has never espoused any sort of national vision, rather running from pillar to post and forming opportunistic alliances with various caste and religious votebanks as circumstances dictate.

It seems then that the Third Front of regional Satraps, while conceivably immune to the mindset of British Exceptionalism which ensured the servility of India's 20th-century political classes, do not embody any real hope for an alternative national leadership.

That leaves only the New Indian Elite of technocrats and businessmen.

Today, by means of hard work, good governance and personal example, Mr. Narendra Modi has successfully appealed to this New Indian Elite by working an economic miracle in his state of Gujarat. That is why the "Secular" Media are doing their best to character-assassinate him with their trumped up Gujarat-riots garbage. It is because they realize that if Nationalist forces expand beyond the bitter old Reactionaries who form their traditional base, and successfully co-opt this generation of New Indian Elite... then the Delhi Cocktail Circuit's era of influence is over and done with.

The Congress and its "Secular" Media mouthpieces have been fighting back with rabid fury over the last five years. To divert attention from the series of sellouts they have perpetrated, they have been doing their best to project the Hindutva opposition as a force comprised solely of reactionaries like Raj Thackeray and Pramod Muthalik.

The tragedy is that if the Congress had allowed its own Narendra Modis to flourish organically... new generation leaders with a genuine sense of Indian identity, like Madhavrao Scindia or Rajesh Pilot... then very possibly, it too could have become a party capable of serving the Indian interest. Between a Congress and a BJP both commanded by a new class of political elite forged in the fires of a proud and thriving India, the nation would have had so much to gain.

But the old guard of the Congress did not choose this path. They chose instead to form a bandwagon of greed and cynicism around an Italian extra-constitutional authority who runs the nation by remote control in the interest of various global nexuses. They have elected to stand for the Delhi Cocktail Circuit and its everlasting British Exceptionalism, rather than the New Indian Elite and its growing realization of an empowered Indian identity. The Italian herself has nothing but two idiot children to produce, in lieu of any genuinely Indian leaders for tomorrow. The shrill propaganda of the "Secular" Media, bought and paid for by the Congress Government and the global nexuses behind it, seek only to distract the New Indian Elite from this inconvenient truth.

In the long run they will fail. Ultimately, the New Indian Elite will not tolerate the "Secular Media" and the Delhi Cocktail Circuit pulling the wool over their eyes for one day longer.

In the final analysis, I believe the New Indian Elite must circumvent the parasite political classes of yesteryear, and forge a new social contract on uniquely Indian terms with the vast mass of the Indian people. That is the only way to rid ourselves of that parasite class, the Delhi Cocktail Circuit, the Secular Media and all its other institutional trappings whose collective psyche is tainted with the curse of British Exceptionalism.

This is what must be achieved, Citizen Robespierre... La guillotine doit réclamer son prix sanglant!

After that is done, our speaking English or Sanskrit or Afrikaans will not matter... it will be just another expanded vocabulary of communication. Even the Trojan Horse if chopped up could provide useful firewood!