Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

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RayC
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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RayC » 20 Dec 2009 20:28

[
quote="brihaspati"]First, past is not blanketly applied without analysis for appropriateness. Past is important to find patterns of situations/attitudes/behaviours that help us understand how certain ideologies, community leaderships will tend to utilize given situations - in the future. It is criminal to neglect the lessons of history, or claim that history was relevant once - but is not going to be important for future lessons and therefore never to be revisited.


You are right.

Are we the same as our ancestors and their belief, their economic situation and their cultural equation? If it was stagnant as you state, I will agree.



On the other hand no one is taking the opposite view that we should live back in the past with respect to everything without discrimination. That is the view of Jihadi Islam. That society should be taken back to 7th century deserts of Arabia because the ideology only can be maintained or justified in that histroical context.


I feel Jihadism was OK for them in the past. Not now!

We have to take the middle road, of neither totally rejecting history and we must keep on revisiting history to get a pattern of how past experiences can indicate future scenarios. Nor should we mimic Islamists or certain schools within Christian and Judaic religious thoughts, that wants to take society back to a particular period and place in history - as otherwise their ideology becomes meaningless in any other context.


I have explained earlier. Live the times and not live on the glories of your ancestors.

I have been fighting missionaries of both Islamist and Christian traditions from an early age - specifically in their subtle obstruction to members of their community or more so in the case of tribals they hope to convert, to go for modern skill-base education and higher education. Two specific reasons ultimately always emerged - too much higher education,e specially in the science and technology or medicine dept, somehow makes such students less docile to blind submission to theologians. Second, that a higher qualification would make them economically independent and not suitable for "missionary" work.


If there is deprivation, one will clutch the straw.

So I have reasons to be dead-set against specific religious group leaders and their theologians in all their activities. Every time I have tried to introduce elements of modernization through education/higher education/ economic self-reliance and joining the productivity/"capitalist" road - I have come up against obstacles put forward using such religious control.


Too intellectual for the illiterate to understand. That is the fallacy!

I would support any authoritarian regime that would withdraw rashtryia protection for such obstacles under the excuse of "diversity". I would support any authoritarian regime that makes it compulsory for all citizens, irrespective of any consideration of origins, to be subjected to a intensive educational process that is constantly upgrading itself to keep up with changing economy and technology. A weak, pandering form of "democracy" that perpetuates "status quo" to facilitate theologians as well as protectors of "ways of life" for "indigenous" populations - simply so that certain elite groups can use such constituencies for personal power and esteem - is not the tool for necessary social transitions.


Too intellectual.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RamaY » 20 Dec 2009 21:04

RayC-ji,

Are we the same as our ancestors and their belief, their economic situation and their cultural equation? If it was stagnant as you state, I will agree.

On the contrary, one (even a society) doesn’t change their values and believes every time their economic fortunes change. One is expected to build on their forefathers’ values, not on graves.

I feel Jihadism was OK for them in the past. Not now!

They did not ask for your opinion before picking up Jihadism in Palastine, Chechnya, Africa, Afghanistan, JK, Indonesia, Iraq, Europe, and even in the USA. What did you see in JK afsar-saab? Peaceful protests against smelling kafirs? Don't you know at the bottom of 26/11 lies this very ideology?

I have explained earlier. Live the times and not live on the glories of your ancestors.

What are you without your forefathers? Do you think you would be what you are without your parent’s sacrifices and achievements?

Too intellectual for the illiterate to understand. That is the fallacy!

Just because you cannot understand something, it will not make the other person wrong, and his opinions non-practical. Read first, read again till you understand. Ask questions if you do not. Generally one asks a question in this format “Dear xxx-ji, what do you mean by blah-blah-blah?”

Too intellectual.

I think your career and training made you too situational and reactionary. Leadership cannot be built on those qualities. Leadership is built upon the qualities such as belief in one’s (or society/ideology/value) destiny, unwavering conviction, strong analytical skills, pattern recognition and analysis, risk-reward modeling, negotiation, and more than anything humility.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Yogi_G » 20 Dec 2009 21:17

During an exercise (wargame) he emerged outside his Caravan (vehicle) which was AC half hour late for his Orders. He complained how hot it was to cover up his delay. I asked him how come as a Punjabi hardworking that he was or he thought he was, come so late? And that he should not blame Bengalis and instead see reality. The heat and humidity kills, but if food is available without having to fight for it, then who cares? And that we are not interested in mansions or Rolls Royce cars either! We are happy with what we have! Mistake me not. I am not stereotyping Punjabis. I have many a Punjabi and Sikh friends. It is just that this type of racial arrogance also adds to the rise of sub-nationalism. I darsay the other Bengalis think highly of the Midnaporis or each region thinking high of the other! I am sure you would have heard of the Nokkikantopur chaps and all that!


Race? :shock:

Punjabis and Bengalis are different races? What kind of an absurd assertion is that?

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 20 Dec 2009 21:18

RayC wrote
I have explained earlier. Live the times and not live on the glories of your ancestors.

You have chosen to ignore the stress on the middle road - not reject anything in history, like you do, that does not suit your agenda of delegtimizing pre-Islamic or pre-Christian foundations and contributions. You try to wipe out the fundamentally other-civilization destroying agenda inherent in Islamism and EJism - and this is why you try to suppress any reference to their past consistent behaviour to that end. By doing so you think that people will no longer be aware of the future possibility of similar behaviour from Islamists and EJist as and when situation or circumstances become favourable for them.

Quote:
I have been fighting missionaries of both Islamist and Christian traditions from an early age - specifically in their subtle obstruction to members of their community or more so in the case of tribals they hope to convert, to go for modern skill-base education and higher education. Two specific reasons ultimately always emerged - too much higher education,e specially in the science and technology or medicine dept, somehow makes such students less docile to blind submission to theologians. Second, that a higher qualification would make them economically independent and not suitable for "missionary" work.


If there is deprivation, one will clutch the straw.


What has "deprivation" got to do with the theologians obstructing processes that can make their flock independent of their theologic control? Are you saying that the theologians are "deprived"? In your hurry to contradict what I say, you should not overlook to tie your comments logically in context to what you are quoting from me. And time and again, it is not those who are deprived who put up obstacles - but theologians and their networks, and when they could not cope - the rashtra and the centre-left almost always jumped in - in favour of the theologains agenda. Enough of this pseudo-intellectualism from you in defence of centre-left or the role of the rashtra in safefuarding only selective categories of theologians interests by trying to shift all blame on everyone else than these!

Quote:
So I have reasons to be dead-set against specific religious group leaders and their theologians in all their activities. Every time I have tried to introduce elements of modernization through education/higher education/ economic self-reliance and joining the productivity/"capitalist" road - I have come up against obstacles put forward using such religious control.


Too intellectual for the illiterate to understand. That is the fallacy!


What prevents you from being clear yourself when you demand so from others? Those whom you dub "illiterate" did not oppose. It was the literate and educated, like you and me, who were in place as relogious leadership/interest and rashtryia entities in the name of protecting minority sentiments, who were most keen to thwart such modernizing or capacity-building moves.

Quote:
I would support any authoritarian regime that would withdraw rashtryia protection for such obstacles under the excuse of "diversity". I would support any authoritarian regime that makes it compulsory for all citizens, irrespective of any consideration of origins, to be subjected to a intensive educational process that is constantly upgrading itself to keep up with changing economy and technology. A weak, pandering form of "democracy" that perpetuates "status quo" to facilitate theologians as well as protectors of "ways of life" for "indigenous" populations - simply so that certain elite groups can use such constituencies for personal power and esteem - is not the tool for necessary social transitions.


Too intellectual.


Naturally! Anything that criticizes the current regime and administrative machinery, especially the political spectrum that controls it, towards its practical role on the ground as protector of certain religious interests and denigrator of others, that is keen on maintaining social divisions that can be exploited as captive electoral capital - will appear too intellectual to you. You have to pretend that you do not understand.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RayC » 20 Dec 2009 21:43

Religion maybe an important issue to you.

I think we are greater than the shackles of religion - an abstract idea.

I feel we are supreme and religion is bit of a guide.

One should not be weak to believe things that has no intrinsic value in helping us in our worldly life.

Can religion help me to bring down foodgrain prices? No

It can only give me solace!

It can't feed my family.

I see my maid servant and her plight. She never stole before in the manner she is doing. I look the other side when she steals. She is sinning and I am doing good by looking the other side, though not quite right to allowing stealing! Religion. Who is sinning is the question!

I shall answer your post when I have the time.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 20 Dec 2009 22:31

RayC wrote
I feel Jihadism was OK for them in the past. Not now!


I have been entertained for a long time here, by such sentiments and beliefs that are then sought to be imposed as truth by demand. This is a strategic future thread, and such funny and criminally callous beliefs should be explored for reality. Has "Jihadism" really been given up, even if the core texts show it as an integral part of the faith? More importantly has India been omitted from the target of such Arabic-style ghazwas and jihad on India for the future?

So here is the beginning of a sequence of articles that can be quoted on open forums. I will start with this article from 2006.

Mumbai: Kashmiri group's expanding operation

Offensive jihad

Al-Hindi is of the view that armed jihad by Muslims today in areas like Kashmir is largely defensive in nature. Muslims are only reacting to the situation and the maneuvers of their enemies. Yet, defensive jihad has caused a high number of casualties among the mujahideen, the most special group of people among the "ummah."

Al-Hindi argues for the need to reform and change - from defensive to offensive jihad - so that the tables can be turned and Muslims can gain the initiative in achieving their objectives. He likens offensive jihad to a “flanking operation” in military combat. This can be achieved by bringing armed jihad operations into the enemy’s territory. The objective is to create big problems to destabilize and force the enemy to turn away from Muslim territories.
Stirring communal conflicts

Since Kashmiri independence is viewed as an Islamic cause to regain lost Muslim territories, Al-Hindi is of the view that local Muslims living in India should be co-opted. They are seen as the main actors for a successful offensive jihad because they understand the language, culture, area, and common practices of the enemy that they coexist with. This highlights the need for recruiting and winning them over to engage in or support various sabotage and attacks inside India.

Propaganda is viewed as a necessary means of jihad for Al-Hindi. He therefore suggests, as part of the offensive jihad on India, launching a propaganda campaign. One important aspect of propaganda is to cause communal conflicts, such as those between the Hindus and the Sikhs or between Muslims and non-Muslims inside India.

Widening the theater of operation

Identification of the enemy is important in the thinking of Al-Hindi because it helps to justify an attack and to determine targeted countries for launching offensive jihad. Al-Hindi views countries that invade a Muslim land as enemies of Islam and those that support an invasion of a Muslim land as interfering in the affairs of Muslim states.

The book specifically identifies five countries as enemies: India, because of its occupation of Kashmir and the atrocities committed by its forces against the Kashmiris; the Pakistani government for being the puppet of the US and using the Kashmir issue and the mujahideen as its pawns; the US for supporting the Indian government with millions of dollars of ‘emergency aid’ and “being the tip of the spear against al-Islam in modern times”; Russia for being the “mentor” for India; and finally; Israel for providing training for the Indian army.
Conclusion

The centrality of Al-Hindi’s idea lies in the view that offensive jihad is a strategic option. Jihad should be used as a leverage to advance the Kashmiri cause by bringing the operation into the enemy’s soil and gaining the initiative. It means destabilizing India from inside in any possible way.

The idea of offensive jihad is a critical development. It not only widens the theatre of operation in India, but potentially also into other countries that are seen as collaborators with the Indian government at the expense of the Kashmiri cause. This also explains the attack plots planned by Al-Hindi against targets in the US. The widening of the operating theatre into India has already taken place, as seen in various bombing attacks by the separatist groups.

It could be said that Al-Hindi’s ideas have an ideological dimension – that offensive jihad could go beyond the zone of conflict; that targeting civilians is permissible; that there is a strategic dimension of recruiting local Muslims for Kashmir’s independence cause; and that there is an operational dimension through a propaganda campaign to undermine India’s social stability. All these are issues that need to be addressed accordingly to provide long lasting peace and security in India specifically, and the sub-continent in general.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Bharath.Subramanyam » 20 Dec 2009 23:22

Usually people ask why history should be studied. Some people also say that we don't have to look "backwards" and we should look for future, 'modernity' etc.

One reason to learn the history or past is given below:

See the video of the Talk by Anupam Mishra on how Water Harvesting was done by Hindu civilization for centuries (especially in Rajasthan Desert):

http://www.ted.com/talks/anupam_mishra_ ... sting.html

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RamaY » 20 Dec 2009 23:55

RayC wrote:Religion maybe an important issue to you.
I think we are greater than the shackles of religion - an abstract idea.
I feel we are supreme and religion is bit of a guide.
One should not be weak to believe things that has no intrinsic value in helping us in our worldly life.
Can religion help me to bring down foodgrain prices? No
It can only give me solace!
It can't feed my family.
I see my maid servant and her plight. She never stole before in the manner she is doing. I look the other side when she steals. She is sinning and I am doing good by looking the other side, though not quite right to allowing stealing! Religion. Who is sinning is the question!
I shall answer your post when I have the time.


You see only Hindu Religion in pre-colonial India and that is where you are narrow-minded. Others see thousands of years of collective history, culture, social-experience, and environmentally-native solutions. For all Hindus all the national resources are part of their collective wealth, which is to be shared among all of us. That way, YES religion feeds my family and your family. For example; If you were a pre-partition Pakistani, Islam is feeding you in Pakistan today because they got ownership on Pakistan’s natural resources in the name of religion.


You are one of the people who supported EJ Proselytization in the name of “SERVICE”, because it gives money, education, and even social status to billions of yindoo poor. The $10 program used by EJs in South India is offering Rs 400-500 per month per family for converting in to Christianity.


You are wrong in your behavior w.r.t you servant, irrespective of your faith. Firstly you are not paying enough for her services, assuming she is working 8hrs per day in your home alone. In that sense your family is exploiting her services by not paying enough to feed her, assuming she is the sole bread-winner in her family. Secondly, you are encouraging her to steel, which is punishable by law. You are adharmic because you are allowing all this while being a govt servant, that too being an (ex) officer in Indian Armed forces.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 21 Dec 2009 00:34

Here is a year 2009 expression of Islamist sentiments, about "jihad on India" - that too primarily from as far as I can see, a generic "Shia" interpretation rather than pure "Sunni":

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211857
A jamaat of Muslims wages Jihad on India and they will conquer India with the help of Allah.


A similar line of thought but with more explicit glee in how the Indian resistance will be enslaved and brought back as POW's: http://faizan-e-madina.blogspot.com/2009/01/major-signs-on-qayamat.html



Signs of Qayamat
1. Before the day of Qiyamat, great events will take place and the people at the time will ask one another if Nabi (PBUH) has mentioned anything about them.
2. Thirty big liars will appear and the name of the last one will be Dajjal.
3. Until the advent of Hazrat Isa (AS) one Jamaat will continue to propogate Haqq (truth) to the Ummat.
4. This Jamaat will not be bothered by the objectors (Kuffars and Munafiqs).
Imam Mahdi
5. The last amir of this Jamaat will be Imam Mahdi.
6. Imam Mahdi will have an exemplary personality.
7. He will be a descendant of the Ahle Bait of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH).
8. Hazrat Isa (Jesus A.S) will descent while Imam Mahdi is still alive.
9. According to an Ayat of the Quran, this will be amongst the signs of the coming of Qayamat.
10. A Jamaat of Muslims that will comprise the people loved by Allah, will wage Jihad on India and be successfull in it. They will bring forth the defeated leaders in chains and locks in their necks.
11. At the time when this army will return from Jihad, they will find Hazrat Isa (A.S) in Syria.


Both sentiments have been expressed in 2009. Note that, conquest and enslavement of India through militant Jihad is taken as predicted/hadithic inevitability (as a target) for Islamism - based on core textual authority.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Prem » 21 Dec 2009 01:21

brihaspati wrote:Here is a year 2009 expression of Islamist sentiments, about "jihad on India" - that too primarily from as far as I can see, a generic "Shia" interpretation rather than pure "Sunni":

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211857
A jamaat of Muslims wages Jihad on India and they will conquer India with the help of Allah.


But i just read Greatgrandayotullah N"3 explaining the secular nature of threat to India in Headley thread . The ideological foundation of JEM,LET,JUD, Kasab and Party, Cashmere Jihad, 47partition and all the peacefull killing in Punjab and Bengal ,Paki army etc is secular only and islamizm has nothing to do with it. To me Pakistan is just a symbol of all these Islamist sentiments , hopes and idiotic wasteful living to wage Jeehad, Qiyamat, Jannat etc. As far as i am concerned , any one dreming this jeehad on India desreve to be neutralized using most humane methods in dealing with Dushts.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 21 Dec 2009 02:22

Nqyoob has simply expressed two views he has consistently held for a long time, at least as far as I can see in the forum. He has not mentioned "secular" as the culprit, but has blamed everything on the entity of Pakistan or "Pakiness" as he chooses to call it. I will ask him for the definition of "Pakiness" and whether it is an inherited trait genetically. Combined with his other firm declaration that he will do everything to clear the forum of what he considers "rants" against "one religion" it also implies that he does not include that "one religion" as part of "Pakiness".

To be fair, it is not "secular" he implicates.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RayC » 21 Dec 2009 09:13

RamaY wrote:
You see only Hindu Religion in pre-colonial India and that is where you are narrow-minded. Others see thousands of years of collective history, culture, social-experience, and environmentally-native solutions. For all Hindus all the national resources are part of their collective wealth, which is to be shared among all of us. That way, YES religion feeds my family and your family. For example; If you were a pre-partition Pakistani, Islam is feeding you in Pakistan today because they got ownership on Pakistan’s natural resources in the name of religion.


You are one of the people who supported EJ Proselytization in the name of “SERVICE”, because it gives money, education, and even social status to billions of yindoo poor. The $10 program used by EJs in South India is offering Rs 400-500 per month per family for converting in to Christianity.


You are wrong in your behavior w.r.t you servant, irrespective of your faith. Firstly you are not paying enough for her services, assuming she is working 8hrs per day in your home alone. In that sense your family is exploiting her services by not paying enough to feed her, assuming she is the sole bread-winner in her family. Secondly, you are encouraging her to steel, which is punishable by law. You are adharmic because you are allowing all this while being a govt servant, that too being an (ex) officer in Indian Armed forces.


I am afraid religion may feed your religion, but not mine. Reality feeds my family.

I may not have displayed outrage against evangelists as some have done and blamed them for all the ills of the country. It was based on my belief that to heap blame on any group for all our ills would be ostrich like; as if meaning if there were no evangelism, India would be shining. The idea that all the ills of our country is because of evangelists is like the same argument trotted out by Pakistan that all ills in Pakistan is India's fault. I somehow feel that whereas I would ridicule Pakistan's claim, then it would be hypocritical on my part to blame anyone with a similar refrain as Pakistan.

Having said that, where the evangelist are wrong, I have had no hesitation to state so and chief being financial allurement for conversion. That is bogus conversion. I have no mentioned that they are doing service, but I did say that they have given some of the best hospitals, schools and other infrastructural support.

Since you wish to know what I pay my maid who works to clean the utensils once a day, I pay her Rs 1500/- And in Bengal, you have to give double the pay as Puja bonus. Given the standard rate in our locality, I daresay I am paying well.

I enjoyed the moral lessons that you have doled out. Indeed theft is punishable. How about stealing office stationery that is the common practise with many? I could go on giving examples of petty pilfering done by otherwise respectable people. Would it be correct for me to assume that you are a Sant who has done nothing wrong in life? Well, giving money to beggars is also wrong since begging is against the law. I presume you have never given alms to beggars. I believe it is called Bhiksha and I will leave it at that.

If for all Hindus national resources are part of their collective wealth, which is to be shared among all of us, isn't it extraordinary that there still is poverty in the country? We have abundance of national resources and are discovering new ones, practically daily!

A clarification for you. Any officer who retires after having done his full Colour Service is a Retired officer. Who leave the Army without doing the full Colour Service are called Ex Officers.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RayC » 21 Dec 2009 09:18

Brihaspati,

I had said while Jihad may have been acceptable by them in the past, carrying out Jihad in this century is certainly NOT acceptable.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RayC » 21 Dec 2009 09:27

Prem wrote: ,Paki army etc is secular only and islamizm has nothing to do with it.


Pakistan Army

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Prem » 21 Dec 2009 09:46

RayC wrote:
Prem wrote: ,Paki army etc is secular only and islamizm has nothing to do with it.


Pakistan Army


So we all know what motivate them and then why we have to consider their motivational mumbo jumbo of medieval era with sympathy, respect or dignity. Its like asking to respect their religious right to slit throats of kaffirs.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RayC » 21 Dec 2009 10:07

Prem wrote:


So we all know what motivate them and then why we have to consider their motivational mumbo jumbo of medieval era with sympathy, respect or dignity. Its like asking to respect their religious right to slit throats of kaffirs.


I wonder if there is any sympathy for Pakistan on this forum.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RamaY » 21 Dec 2009 10:30


It was based on my belief that to heap blame on any group for all our ills would be ostrich like; as if meaning if there were no evangelism, India would be shining. The idea that all the ills of our country is because of evangelists is like the same argument trotted out by Pakistan that all ills in Pakistan is India's fault.


RayC-ji,

I am not "blaming" Islamic-invasions and colonizers for everything that happened between 700-1947AD, even though they caused unmentionable damage to our society and environment. Our history is seen for what it is, and our forefathers were suppressed by brutal alien forces. Our forefathers made necessary compromises so we, their offspring, can see a future free from occupation.

I blame the dhimmified and colonized minds for not breaking the very shackles that suppressed and damaged our native society and culture. Anyone will want to back to their roots when they are free. We haven't done so as a nation. There are only one possible reason for it.

Our leadership is compromised and the nation did not achieve freedom as we are told, atleast interms of ideology. This is what I am blaming for deceiving India and this is what I am complaining about.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RamaY » 21 Dec 2009 10:36

RayCji

on the other point, I have done many wrong things, but I do not quote those scenarios to support my credentials. I use my shortcomings to warn myself and others on the traps and consequences.

That said, I was just reflecting on the fallacy in your argument, not to demonstrate my righteousness.

Hope that clarifies.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RayC » 21 Dec 2009 11:42

RamaY

Sorry, but your moral lecture made me wonder if you were a Christian priest giving me a lecture on the goodness of life and citizenship.

You assumed I am a heartless chap paying a pittance to my maid.

I would be accused of grandstanding, but the house on the land she lives on, was my mother's contribution and she has been with us from when she was 18.

So, if she pilfers to keep her and her family in some shape, I too feel like what you feel, but then I float down the memory lane and think of my mother and whether I should come down heavily or not!

She sure dents my budget, but then I take it that I am doing 'service' (not Abrahamic service, but what any human being would do) to the more downtrodden than me, even if it is legally unfortunate!

Since you feel that we don't look after our retainers, let me tell you that our Bihari retainer, who was there from the day of my childhood, left us when he was discovered having sex with the maid. Within 15 days he was back. Guess why? He has a room of his own with a fan, tubelight (innovation in those days!), a bathroom with flush and fan and a refrigerator at his disposal. In fact, he ran the household! My father said pamper the people as much as one can so that they cannot get the same privileges elsewhere. His pay was much more than the neighbourhood and he had the Army facility - and all paid 2 month leave every year including rail charges! So, please don't assume we are heartless!

I will add that it is not that she (my maid) has not done for us. Her husband is a decorator (or what in Punjab is known as Tentwallah). The decorations and shamiyanas for my children's wedding were for a song.

Give and take!

Goodness of life and camaraderie!

There is no fallacy in my argument.

The fallacy lies in your assumptions.

To me, religion is a very private thing. It is not worn on the sleeve. Society can be reformed without wearing religion on the sleeve.

Nitin Gadkari is the ideal example, whose work speak louder than his affiliation to any political or ideological creed.

In modern life, the spiritual has given way to a mix of spiritual and the temporal for survival and pursuing the agenda!

How was Gen Jacob, a Jew, a BJP man? The philosophy of nationalism appealed to him as it does to many and not merely religion!

Why is ABV still revered and not Advani? Was ABV not an RSS man? One must temper one's ideals with reason and with the changing times.

Why is Islam in doldrums? They are not changing to the requirement of times.

I was seeing a programme how the Roman Catholic church is allowing pagan beliefs just to ensure the Church does not fall apart.

Aggressive religiosity repels when there is so much of problems to live a decent life.

Conversions with allurement is reprehensible as is Jihad. But to defeat it is not to be done aggressively. Run silent, run deep!

Why is the Submarine arm feared most by all Navies?

Having observed your posts, I will concede that you are a better man than I. You can save India, where I have failed.

Happy?

RayC
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Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RayC » 21 Dec 2009 12:33

On the contrary, one (even a society) doesn’t change their values and believes every time their economic fortunes change. One is expected to build on their forefathers’ values, not on graves.


Doesn't appear true.

Joint family?

Respect for elders?

People paying money to the Pandits to cut short the marriage rituals!

Grooms not wearing un-stitched clothing for the wedding!

We can't pretend they exist just to force our feigned beliefs that they do, just to score a brownie!

It is indeed tiresome to find selective civilisation values touted!

It is time to see reality.

Sanku
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Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Sanku » 21 Dec 2009 13:16

I have a question to the learned, why not apply the policy of "benign neglect" towards the repeated assertion of "faith statements" which are wholly devoid of meaning and any relation to reality?

Personally I made that choice for some posters a long time ago (once it was clear they have nothing of meaning to add) however some very capable posters are simply wasting their time, when the same space and time can be devoted to better understanding and discussing various issues in detail rather than revisiting the birth of Sita time and again. I feel it allows your expression to be hijacked and ignoring the trivialities would help in avoiding that trap.

Just a legitimate curious question.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RayC » 21 Dec 2009 16:47

revisiting the birth of Sita time and again.


Nothing could be truer than this statement.

Even if said in ingenuous and apparent 'intellectual' ways.

It does get boring.

So. Since there is nothing new, goodbye this thread!


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