Artillery Discussion Thread

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Dec 2011 18:09

^^^ in covering the accident at CSL ?

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 30 Dec 2011 18:38

^ sbc

member_22019 · Post by **member_22019** » 30 Dec 2011 18:51

Pardon me for posting this late, I don't have much knowledge of defence related matters but I read threads on this portal regularly. I had read a short interview in dainik jagran regarding this 155 gun being developed in kanpur around 7-8 months back. Don't remember the name of the organization and the director. Then I looked in this thread for any update of the gun but could not find any discussion regarding this indigenous gun. I though this may be a DDM news and dainik jagran might have printed 155 instead of 135.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 30 Dec 2011 18:52

^can you trace the article in question? it will be helpful to all jingos here.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 Dec 2011 18:56

people who doubt dainik jargan...it has tie up with yahoo to give news in hindi

vic · Post by **vic** » 30 Dec 2011 19:03

Dainik Bhasker is one of the biggest newspaper groups of India and in any case much bigger circulation than TOI(let). Very politically aware newspaper so they should know what an indigenous Bofors means. Having said this, DDM can strike anytime

member_22019 · Post by **member_22019** » 30 Dec 2011 19:33

Tried to track the interview but could not find. I got another article on navbharattimes dated 17 March 2003. Is the 155mm field gun same as howitzer?

http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/ar ... 571240.cms

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Dec 2011 19:55

SiddharthS wrote:Tried to track the interview but could not find. I got another article on navbharattimes dated 17 March 2003. Is the 155mm field gun same as howitzer?

http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/ar ... 571240.cms

Interesting link but very old - 2003

It says that the OFB has a 155 mm "parishkrut samskaran" of the 130 mm gun that it wants to export. I had to consult a dictionary for that and it means "latest edition" or "new update"

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 30 Dec 2011 20:10

^That's the Metamorphosis gun.I had reports a while back on how OFB had showcased it in some expo for other customers who may be interested in upgunning their M46 inventory.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Dec 2011 20:19

^^ Damn, this one snippet will ensure redux of all my arty related wet dreams which had quietly slunk away after even the M-777 FMS was caught up in limbo..

I am praying that this news is right just like their earlier "scoops" on ATV were relatively on the mark.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Dec 2011 21:13

Bala Vignesh wrote:Chacko sir,
Could you please try and confirm the above news article???
It

BV,

We do not have the gun tech. This is what India is doing. DRDO to create technology base for possible 155 MM Artillery Gun Project

anyway, I will try to get an idea tomorrow.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Dec 2011 21:17

Marut wrote:^ sbc

of course.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 30 Dec 2011 22:13

Re-reading about the Metamorphosis program and the OFB's efforts to market it internationally, I surmise that the current 155/45cal gun from Kanpur maybe the marriage of the Soltam barrel + breech block with indigenously produced gun carriage systems similar to the M46 ones. Of course, I could be totally wrong on this. Let's see what CJ digs up.

This gun will anyways do what a 155/45cal should do and given the lack of 155mm arty in huge numbers to meet the 100 gun concept, I will gladly take this gun and induct it by the hundreds! But then IA is the final arbiter of this gun's fate, so my fingers are clenched tightly around my lungi

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Dec 2011 09:35

I think you are right. here is a pic of the 130mm upgraded with the soltam breech and barrel
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/at ... 1158248983

if you compare to the new gun, the muzzle brake and barrel look like same thing inserted (with slight mods to size of couple holes) into the bofors chassis
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2108/1 ... b47jz2.jpg

they must have pindigenized all parts of the bofors chassis or found alternative parts , the fire control system would certainly have made advances since the mid 80s level...so perhaps a local system or israeli system is in place now...iaccs integration etc.

sum · Post by **sum** » 31 Dec 2011 09:48

Re-reading about the Metamorphosis program and the OFB's efforts to market it internationally, I surmise that the current 155/45cal gun from Kanpur maybe the marriage of the Soltam barrel + breech block with indigenously produced gun carriage systems similar to the M46 ones. Of course, I could be totally wrong on this. Let's see what CJ digs up.

The only reason i didnt feel this was the oltam upgrade was because of the emphasis in the article ( twice) about all components being local and no help being taken from abroad.

Anyways, one never knows and keeping all fingers and toes crossed. Somehow, that precise figure of 414 guns being mentioned gives hope that this gun might have been accepted for orders!

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Dec 2011 10:32

chackojoseph wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:Chacko sir,
Could you please try and confirm the above news article???
It
BV,

We do not have the gun tech. This is what India is doing. DRDO to create technology base for possible 155 MM Artillery Gun Project

anyway, I will try to get an idea tomorrow.

Chacko, while it is difficult to believe that OFB can do anything but the technology base already exists through 120mm Arjun Gun, T-90 125 mm gun barrel project, Met 155mm upgrade, 105mm gun and Bofors gun drawings. So pls do find out what is happening

OFB may have beaten DRDO by simple reverse engineering. We already have the drawing, equipment etc, we just needed a little will and push or perhaps a retired employee from BAE/Bofors

Supposedly we have been making lot of spare parts of Bofors also, so it may just have been a short step to assembly of a gun.

Further if possible pls check out about new variant of INSAS claimed by OFB also http://idrw.org/?p=6126#more-6126

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Dec 2011 10:40

http://www.defencenow.com/news/394/adeq ... ntony.html

Replying to questions from members, Antony said.............

Noting that India has obtained the necessary technology for the Bofors guns transferred to the Ordnance Factories, Antony said the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) had received all the technical documents as per the contract.

"Though further dealings with AB Bofors was suspended, OFB has been manufacturing the major components of the guns such as the (i) Barrel, (iii) Breach Mechanism, (iii) Muzzle Break, (iv) Loading Trough, (v) Recoil System along with (vi) Elevating and Traversing Cylinders, etc., and supplying to the army as spares," he said.

(numbering is given by me)

If the news item is correct then Practically the only thing left is the chassis, fire control system and the engine which can easily be supplied by Pvt Sector & BEL etc

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Dec 2011 10:47

Further in 2008 itself OFB had offered to upgrade old Bofors gun, which proposal I think is still hanging fire

NEW DELHI (BNS): The Government has received a proposal from the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to undertake up-gradation of 155 mm Bofors guns, Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju has informed Parliament.

An RFP was issued by AHQ/Ministry of Defence for up-gradation of existing 155 mm/39 Calibre FH 77B Bofors Gun to 155 mm/45 Calibre Gun in August 2008, a statement by the Indian Defence Ministry said.

OFB participated in the RFP and submitted a bid, which is under evaluation at Ministry of Defence, it said.

Bofors parts are being made atleast since 2007

New Delhi: The tender for modernising the Bofors FH-77B, involves overhauling the gun, fitting a state-of-the-art sighting system, and upgrading the barrels from 39 calibre to 52 calibre. The barrel upgrade will allow the guns to fire heavier ammunition, inflicting heavier damage on targets.

Undeterred by Bofors’ withdrawal, the MoD-owned Ordnance Factories Board (OFB) and the Tata group have stepped forward and bid for the Bofors upgrade programme. Neither has ever developed an artillery gun earlier. The OFB, however, has the technical drawings of the Bofors FH-77B gun, which were handed over by Bofors when India signed the contract in the mid-1980s.

In an interview in September 2007, then OFB Chairman Sudipta Ghosh — currently in CBI custody in a corruption investigation — had told this correspondent, “The Bofors gun has not been productionised (sic) here, but [Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur] has all the drawings…. and based on those, we have indigenised [some parts of the Bofors gun].

For BAE Systems, the decision not to bid was a difficult one. It had set up a JV with MDS — with BAE Systems holding a 26% stake, the maximum permissible — primarily to build artillery systems in India. Last year the JV had written to the MoD offering a sweetener: if it won artillery deals like the Bofors upgrade, it would give the Indian defence production establishment a share of the work.
The OFB would be given the work of manufacturing the gun barrels; public sector Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) could make the sighting systems; while the gun trails and gun carriages (on which the guns rest, fire and move) would be built in the new BAE-MDS factory in Faridabad. That shows that only one major component is not being made in India

Their bids have been resting in the MoD since early 2009.

For picture of fire control system by BEL for Bofors

http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-arm ... ts-55.html

For picture of Bofors upgrade offered by OFB

http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-arm ... -mm-3.html

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 31 Dec 2011 10:51

But wasnt there talks of cannibalisation of guns to keep the others working(only 300 were working and the rest 100 were cannibalised IIRC according to some news report). Either the news that cannibalisation happened was wrong or the OFB has started manufacturing the afore-mentioned components fairly recently.

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Dec 2011 10:59

Conclusion :- OFB has been asked to build 3 variants

39 caliber Bofors clone - can easily do with drawings

39 caliber Bofors upgrade - may not be difficult

45 caliber Bofors upgrade - can do with its old R&D on Bofors upgrade proposal

DRDO-Pvt Sector will perhaps work on 155/52 caliber guns in multiple variants

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Dec 2011 11:53

Singha wrote:I think you are right. here is a pic of the 130mm upgraded with the soltam breech and barrel
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/at ... 1158248983 <SNIP>

I don't think that is the Soltam kit based upgrade.

The Soltam based upgrade M-46 looks like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21 ... 48jl8.jpg/
The above compares well with the small pic on OFB website.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Dec 2011 12:47

gents, I bagged the info. Pls wait for my writeup.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 31 Dec 2011 12:47

Waiting CJ ji

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 31 Dec 2011 12:49

CJ Ji ... please dont tease, we cant wait

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Dec 2011 13:04

ROFL,

Pls check in an hour.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Dec 2011 13:12

finally the mists are to clear....

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 31 Dec 2011 13:13

Atleast a hint if its good news

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Dec 2011 13:19

Mihir.D wrote:Atleast a hint if its good news

If so, how will you reward me?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Dec 2011 13:21

half a roast goat, unlimited butter naan, laal maas in a silver handi, kheer, lucknowi biryani

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 31 Dec 2011 13:28

If its good news then i'll buy the drinks, what ever it may be, next time you are in bangalore..

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 31 Dec 2011 13:45

and me when you are in Mumbai.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Dec 2011 13:46

OFB to develop 155mm artillery guns for the Indian Army

hahah, no mutton, no drinks.

Mihir.D I am in Mumbai.

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 31 Dec 2011 13:50

The design will be frozen in June 2012 and the guns delivered in Dec 2012 . Is it that simple ?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 31 Dec 2011 13:52

I can see lots of frowns and grunts and cussings

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 31 Dec 2011 14:50

Singha wrote:I think you are right. here is a pic of the 130mm upgraded with the soltam breech and barrel
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/at ... 1158248983

if you compare to the new gun, the muzzle brake and barrel look like same thing inserted (with slight mods to size of couple holes) into the bofors chassis
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2108/1 ... b47jz2.jpg

they must have pindigenized all parts of the bofors chassis or found alternative parts , the fire control system would certainly have made advances since the mid 80s level...so perhaps a local system or israeli system is in place now...iaccs integration etc.

The first pic is the original M46 itself. The muzzle brake gives it away. This type of muzzle brake is known as pepperpot muzzle brake and have been phased out in favour of a more efficient one called the double baffle muzzle brake. The Soltam upgrade uses this new muzzle brake. The pic by rohitvats is the Metamorphosis.

The second pic is the ofb upgrade of the FH77B from 39cal to 45cal. That program is in deep freeze since 2009 when the BAE-Mahindra opted out and the tender was scrapped. Every so often we hear rumblings about this but nothing comes out of it eventually.

Btw the pic in the hindi article is of the FH77B not the gun being described in the article!

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 31 Dec 2011 15:02

sum wrote:
Re-reading about the Metamorphosis program and the OFB's efforts to market it internationally, I surmise that the current 155/45cal gun from Kanpur maybe the marriage of the Soltam barrel + breech block with indigenously produced gun carriage systems similar to the M46 ones. Of course, I could be totally wrong on this. Let's see what CJ digs up.
The only reason i didnt feel this was the oltam upgrade was because of the emphasis in the article ( twice) about all components being local and no help being taken from abroad.

Anyways, one never knows and keeping all fingers and toes crossed. Somehow, that precise figure of 414 guns being mentioned gives hope that this gun might have been accepted for orders!

414 is eerily close to 180+250, the numbers planned for the Soltam upgrade. Sorry if I poured cold water on your dreams!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Dec 2011 15:15

Marut wrote:The first pic is the original M46 itself. The muzzle brake gives it away. This type of muzzle brake is known as pepperpot muzzle brake and have been phased out in favour of a more efficient one called the double baffle muzzle brake. The Soltam upgrade uses this new muzzle brake. The pic by rohitvats is the Metamorphosis.<SNIP>

The pic posted by Singha is not the original M-46. This is how a M-46 looks like:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 8.jpg.html

Which makes me think the pic which Singha posted seems to be some other upgrade attempted on the M-46. Given the dia. of the barrel, it is for sure 155mm and it seems that it is 45Cal as opposed to 39 Cal on upgrade done so far.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 31 Dec 2011 15:33

suryag wrote:But wasnt there talks of cannibalisation of guns to keep the others working(only 300 were working and the rest 100 were cannibalised IIRC according to some news report). Either the news that cannibalisation happened was wrong or the OFB has started manufacturing the afore-mentioned components fairly recently.

100 nos FH77B were cannibalized to keep the others in service in the 90s. But two contracts - a smaller one first and a bigger one later - with Bofors/BAE in 1999-2001 got the requisite spares and all 400 were brought back in service. OFB was then tasked with producing some spares with higher attrition which they did and we have somehow managed so far with piecemeal contracts for other spares from OEM and others.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 31 Dec 2011 15:42

rohitvats wrote:
Marut wrote:The first pic is the original M46 itself. The muzzle brake gives it away. This type of muzzle brake is known as pepperpot muzzle brake and have been phased out in favour of a more efficient one called the double baffle muzzle brake. The Soltam upgrade uses this new muzzle brake. The pic by rohitvats is the Metamorphosis.<SNIP>
The pic posted by Singha is not the original M-46. This is how a M-46 looks like:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 8.jpg.html

Which makes me think the pic which Singha posted seems to be some other upgrade attempted on the M-46. Given the dia. of the barrel, it is for sure 155mm and it seems that it is 45Cal as opposed to 39 Cal on upgrade done so far.

You are correct. That pic is of the initial models of the Soltam upgrade! Check this out - http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_420.shtml B Harry got a front side pic of this gun. I got misled by the muzzle brake and the lack of sleeve at mid length of the upgraded barrel. Btw, the Soltam upgrade was for 45cal only.

Edit: based on the info about OF Kanpur, the initial upgrade was the 39cal variety which was rejected in favour of the 45 cal Soltam kits.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 31 Dec 2011 15:57

After a bit of googling, I found out some interesting tidbits.

Here's the website of Ordnance Factory Kanpur - http://ofb.gov.in/units/index.php?unit= ... _4&lang=en

Based on the info on this page, they manufacture 155/39 Bofors barrels, the 155/39 upgrade barrels as well as tank main guns for T-72, T-90 & Arjun. We already know that Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur has figured out the manufacture of the other components. So there is a high probability of the P1-55 being a reality. Of course the IA has to accept it after their trials and tests.

Maybe there is indeed some silver lining to all this

Happy New Year to all jingos salivating about an indigenous 155mm gun.