Artillery Discussion Thread

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Mar 2012 20:02

See, the arms industry works on bribe. It doesn't like honest individuals. They will either bump them off, bribe them, shunt them (not necessarily the same order). On the taker side, it is not just the politician takes bribe. If there is an honest minister, the babus hoodwink too. Antony has survived all of them, but, still needs to take step one by one. One wrong step, then hell will break loose.

There is no solution to bribes, but "if noticed by law,' then they have to go after them. At the same time, the law gives the bribe taker equal chance to defend himself. So the procedure takes long.

It is good to see the see saw battle between the law and the in-law's (hehehee, pardon me).

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Mar 2012 20:06

Ah! One point which I wanted to make "it is not the black listing of companies that's holding up the artillery procurement, it is the corruption (bofors) scandal which has brought us to policy paralysis."

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 12 Mar 2012 20:09

See, the arms industry works on bribe. It doesn't like honest individuals

Boss why arms industry.

Sit in any commandants office and see how many altu faltu suppliers from vegetables to mess to bus - keep calling up and saying "take your cut and give us the order'

and these run into piffling lacs

a honest commandant ignores it

a crook - goes for it

again Anthony is only hurting our procurement process - he has didly squat to stop the rot

Regarding arty - blacklist a couple more and there will no one left with quality guns except you know who

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Mar 2012 20:18

See, there is a perception difference here. IMO, Antony is doing the right thing and is not hurting the arms procurement process. He is in the process where a scandal has surfaced. Antony has procured more arms than a lot of Def mins put together. Only artillery is left among a major deal.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Mar 2012 21:48

Chacko, artillery is not one deal. There are several none of which is making even an inch of progress. When the price of combating corruption is compromising the country's national security, it's simply not worth it. Besides, when it comes to artillery deals, it seems all it takes is for one or two newspaper articles hinting at foul play (quoting unnamed sources), and the entire MoD machinery goes into overdrive, blacklisting firms left right and center.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 13 Mar 2012 01:10

Err, can we get back to topic pls?

Interesting article. However, it doesn't mention about whether the Army is going to order more 45 calibre upgrades/ new production and if yes, by when?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Mar 2012 07:44

nachiket wrote:Chacko, artillery is not one deal. There are several none of which is making even an inch of progress. When the price of combating corruption is compromising the country's national security, it's simply not worth it. Besides, when it comes to artillery deals, it seems all it takes is for one or two newspaper articles hinting at foul play (quoting unnamed sources), and the entire MoD machinery goes into overdrive, blacklisting firms left right and center.

which are the others? Air Force trainer? its on the verge.

Time to take corruption as a national security threat.

Newspapers don't produce corruption allegations from thin air.

Will · Post by **Will** » 13 Mar 2012 12:18

One of the major reasons I think that Mr. Anthony is a misfit in the defence ministry is that he is Christian. As ChackoJoseph pointed out,this one aspect opens him up to all sorts of allegations about him being a poodle and the Italian connection.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Mar 2012 12:41

Will wrote:One of the major reasons I think that Mr. Anthony is a misfit in the defence ministry is that he is Christian. As ChackoJoseph pointed out,this one aspect opens him up to all sorts of allegations about him being a poodle and the Italian connection.

That was the least important of my sentence, but, as you sensed it, it is a perception that normally comes in a lot of minds. The Jew + Christian combo along with the perception of certain sections of Indian society on the Palestinian vs Israel / Italian origins of someone etc issues makes this a potential explosive issue.

However, knowing the ways of AK Antony, he is a very simple man. Won't bite tongue. See the example of US in MMRCA tender. If IMI bungled in Artillery ammo case, then they had it.

If you observe, none of the political parties / politicians has raised a question about him. IMO, if someone can bury the Bofors ghost and bring newer artillery, then he is one of the perfect candidates. I don't understand why folks are pointing out to reverse? Had he done that as the 'first thing,' probably, it would have been different.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Mar 2012 06:51

Indian Army craves for the right BOOM

Will India be able to win another Kargil war? Over 400 155 mm artillery guns with their deadly firepower, bought from Swedish firm AB Bofors in 1986, helped India regain its hills in Kashmir from Pakistan in 1999. But with no induction of artillery guns since the Bofors deal was inked during the Rajiv Gandhi regime, will the world's third largest army with Soviet-era guns and depleting Bofors howitzers be able to defeat its adversaries. At a time when China and Pakistan are busy equipping their armies with advanced 155 mm howitzers, India is too cautious to materialize any artillery deal after the alleged Bofors kickback scam.

From time immemorial, artillery guns, considered the 'God of War', have proved their mettle. Artillery not only provides cover to soldiers in the forefront of the battlefield but also weakens enemy's strength by breaching their defences.

Even as terror factories are mushrooming along our western border and the Dragon dancing furiously along the eastern border, India's artillery modernization programme remains stuck in red-tapism. The India Army recently decided to raise mountain divisions in the North-East only after seeing China developing infrastructure and boosting military strength along its side of the Arunachal border. But the army, it seems, has forgotten that soldiers without an artillery support are like sitting ducks.

After a long spell of over two decades, the need for artillery upgradation was first felt in 2008, when the defence ministry issued three global tenders for 155mm howitzers for the mountains, the plains and self-propelled guns for the deserts. As part of its over Rs 20,000-crore artillery modernisation plan, the army looked for 400 towed artillery guns (worth Rs 3,200 crore), 100 tracked guns (costing Rs 3,400 crore), 814 mounted truck guns (Rs 8500 crore), 145 ultralight guns (Rs 2500 crore) and 180 wheeled guns (Rs 4700 crore). Just when a deal for 120 tracked and 180 wheeled self-propelled (SP) 155mm guns was about to be concluded after years of protracted trials, South African arms manufacturer Denel, a leading contender for the contract, was found involved in a corruption scam in an earlier deal for anti-material rifles and was blacklisted . The other two howitzers in contention, Soltam of Israel and BAE systems (which own Bofors of Sweden), did not meet the laid-down criteria and the army headquarters recommended fresh trials. This set the artillery upgrade programme back three to four years.

In a fresh tender floated, BAE Systems, one of the favourites for the towed artillery contract, chose not to bid, citing 'watered-down' parameters that would allow inferior guns also to chip in and meet the qualitative requirements. Another contender, Singapore Technologies Kinetics, was not invited to bid in wake of allegations of its role in corruption cases related to the former chairman of the Ordinance Factory Board, Sudipta Ghosh. Till last year, the army had made four attempts to procure 400 towed artillery howitzers but all failed.

India's plan to procure M777 howitzers from the US through the government-to-government route (foreign military sale) has also not materialized till now.

Pakistan, on the other hand, has been modernizing its artillery in recent years to bolster its mechanized formations. Using the garb of war against terrorism, Pakistan bought 115 used M-109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers under a $56 million deal with the US in 2006. It had also locally manufactured Turkish MKEK Panter towed 155mm howitzers after getting 12 guns for evaluation in 2007. A combination of the Turkish Panter howitzers, along with the American AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder and Chinese SLC-2 radars, has improved the accuracy of Pakistan's long-range artillery. The US-made M-109 A5 155 mm howitzers has given Pakistan an edge over the Indian Army, which is years away from inducting similar systems.

In 2004, according to a defence report, India had 4,175 towed artillery and 200 self-propelled guns while Pakistan had 3,952 towed artillery and 260 self-propelled guns--almost on a par with India. China was far ahead of India in 2004 as it had 14,000 towed artillery and 1,700 self-propelled guns.

Forget the facts and figures, even army chief General V K Singh admitted that the induction of modern artillery guns was not proceeding at a desired pace, saying “while other advanced nations have leapt far ahead in the field, we are still lagging behind".

Some say the possibility of a war with Pakistan or China is remote as both are nuclear nations. However, one forgets that nukes are strategic weapons which are not meant for battle. In a conventional war, the real strength of an army is assessed with the firepower of its artillery.

We are already late by two decades in artillery modernization. It's high time the army stood up and went for the government-to-government route to buy top-of-the-line howitzers available in the global market. If we don't go for the right BOOM now, we are surely going to be DOOMED.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 14 Mar 2012 08:01

How come Turkish Guns married with Chinese radars can work for Pakis, where as only Bofors gets through Indian processes? Either pakis must be wrong or We might be. any ideas?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Mar 2012 08:24

chackojoseph wrote:How come Turkish Guns married with Chinese radars can work for Pakis, where as only Bofors gets through Indian processes?

A more pertinent question would be, Why is anything that gets through Indian processes blacklisted by the MoD?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 14 Mar 2012 08:33

nachiket wrote:A more pertinent question would be, Why is anything that gets through Indian processes blacklisted by the MoD?

No, my original question was better

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Mar 2012 08:47

Bofors has been given so much publicity, only a competing name can survive in India.. Perhaps, rename guns ryhming with bofors should work.. like Mofors!

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 Mar 2012 11:25

I think that we should give do it step by step:-

1. Allow OFB to upgrade 130mm guns to 155mm

2. Allow OFB to upgrade Bofors 155mmx39 caliber to 45 caliber

3. Start manufacturing Bofors 155x45 variant “without automation”

4. Make full upgraded copy of Bofors in 155x45 caliber

5. Move on to 155x52

6. Develop wheeled truck mounted variant

7. Develop light Titanium and aluminum based ULH

8. Then tracked versions

rad · Post by **rad** » 14 Mar 2012 13:04

mad cap Anthony
I really wonder what we will do if there is a an attack by the chinks, what are we going to do without artillery , they have 10000 art pieces,
Anthony is going to tell them wait till we get some?? Practically speaking, the lives of our men at risk for want of hardware of all sort. Acting like an angel or trying to set an example for others not to bribe, is not going to win a a war or save the lives of our jawans , we have to be pragmatic and practical. I request members not to comment on religion of persons , we are not pakistanis

bofors --- no artillery
hdw - ---- no submarines
Singapore tech---- no good rifles and carbines and artillery
IMI - all hitech goodies and cutting edge stuff

the list goes on and the only thing left will be our great OFB !!!

GOD SAVE INDIA

Will · Post by **Will** » 14 Mar 2012 14:34

Some top secret news!!!. The army has decided to deploy stone catapults on the border with both china and pakistan

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 14 Mar 2012 14:55

Seems like there is a serious effort going on to destabilise the country's security apparatus,
all crooks can be found in Delhi. Some decision maker has to take big decisons quickly at his own risk.
Antony cant do that and he should've been fired by now. At least that much they can do, but they dont want to..

He's a defense minister whose sole responsibility is to secure votebank by not letting anything happen that has a tiny evidence of wrong doing at some level.

Simple things can be done to ensure quick disposal of these requirements.
1.Evaluate world's best systems.
2.Make a contract with tot and N no systems to be purchased and later manufactured at will.

The amont we are willing to spend can easily buy technology from countries like SA,Singapore, etc. but who will take that decision?

Antony can't buy sala !
because he cant keep a wallet in his lungi

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 14 Mar 2012 15:09

George kaka & Pranab da wore pants & pyjamas and still didn't keep a wallet, so why fault AKA for his lungi.
If I'm not mistaken, it's the sari/dhoti clad leaders who've beaten the crap out of our long lost brethren. The one who didn't ended up backstabbed with an egg on his face.

Dhoti or sari, pyjama or pants - these have no bearing on the arms procurement & use or their lack thereof. I suggest we don't bring this up again in our discussions.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 14 Mar 2012 15:33

vic wrote:I think that we should give do it step by step:-

1. Allow OFB to upgrade 130mm guns to 155mm
2. Allow OFB to upgrade Bofors 155mmx39 caliber to 45 caliber
3. Start manufacturing Bofors 155x45 variant “without automation”
4. Make full upgraded copy of Bofors in 155x45 caliber
5. Move on to 155x52
6. Develop wheeled truck mounted variant
7. Develop light Titanium and aluminum based ULH
8. Then tracked versions

IMO, we have different classes. The 155mm should be left to DRDO/OFB. We should go for smart GPS rockets like Israel has. We already have 2 types of MBRLS. Then for longer range, we have Brahmos, and Prithvi. We should buy prahaar. If the 155mm OFB gun can work, then we should procure more, as I have been told that they are not one to one copy and come with more advanced stuff.

koti · Post by **koti** » 14 Mar 2012 15:49

Any one have any idea of the current prices of a Rocket(Pinaka) to that of a 155mm shell?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 14 Mar 2012 19:40

Will wrote:Some top secret news!!!. The army has decided to deploy stone catapults on the border with both china and pakistan

THAT INFORMATION IS HIGHLY CLASSIFIED. HOW DARE YOU REVEAL TO ALL ?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 14 Mar 2012 19:42

ravi_g wrote:
Kersi D wrote: A country that has produced Jhansi ki Rani also produces a Renuka Choudhary

MERA BHARAT MAHAN

How about sending Renuka Chaudhary to ChiPak Border next time.

I second you

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 14 Mar 2012 21:55

link

CAG REPORT ON ACQUISITION OF ARTILLERY GUNS

The CAG report for the year 2011-12 (Defence Services) has made certain observations that modern technology Artillery Guns could not be made available to Artillery troops for certain reasons as explained in its Report.

As part of modernization, the Regiment of Artillery has been equipped with PINAKA Rocket Systems, Smerch Rocket Systems and BrahMos Missile Systems in the past 7-8 years. Nine Regiments of 130mm guns have already been upgraded in keeping with Artillery profile 2027. Various other gun systems are also at different stages of procurement. The modernization of Artillery is a continuous process and is being given priority to ensure that Artillery remains equipped with modern weapon systems.

The procurement of quantity 145 Ultra Light Field Guns (Ultra Light Howitzers) was initially progressed concurrently as a Single Vendor Case from M/s ST Kinetics and through Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route with Government of United States of America. However, the permission for trials was not granted to M/s ST Kinetics as the Firm is named in an FIR filed by CBI. The matter is presently sub-judice.

The field evaluation of Ultra Light Howitzer comprises three parts, viz. user trials, DGQA trials and Maintainability trials. Out of these, user trials of the gun proposed to be procured through US Government have been completed. The performance of the gun can be ascertained only after evaluation of all three trial reports.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Mar 2012 09:24

On the 130mm gun upgrade - certain eminent defense analyst (aka plagiarist) was shouting hoarse that it was stopped after couple of initial conversions because of technical issues. Whats more, he even called ex-senior arty fellows are ignorant of ground situation on the matter. Well, there you have it in the CAG Report. 9 regiments are already up gunned and I think some more (again, couple of hundred) are to follow.

vic · Post by **vic** » 15 Mar 2012 10:17

rohitvats wrote:On the 130mm gun upgrade - certain eminent defense analyst (aka plagiarist) was shouting hoarse that it was stopped after couple of initial conversions because of technical issues. Whats more, he even called ex-senior arty fellows are ignorant of ground situation on the matter. Well, there you have it in the CAG Report. 9 regiments are already up gunned and I think some more (again, couple of hundred) are to follow.

Is the full report accessible on the net? link pls?

Would 9 regiments be around 180guns? So basically first trance of Israeli order gone through? The second batch to follow?

What about equal order to OFB Metaphorsis 155mm upgrade?

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 16 Mar 2012 01:14

^^ Typically there are 18 guns per regiment (6 guns per battery -> 3 batteries in a regiment).

Therefore, 9 regiments = 162 guns

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 16 Mar 2012 02:35

Plus a few for Deolali

so 180 maybe right

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Mar 2012 05:39

ravi_g wrote:

How about sending Renuka Chaudhary to ChiPak Border next time.

How unneighborly of you, one doesn't dump garbage at the border, what will the pakis think?

Then again, they might give up the idea of conquering India and taking our women (if you can call her that).

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Mar 2012 08:09

Samay wrote: The amont we are willing to spend can easily buy technology from countries like SA,Singapore, etc. but who will take that decision?

We have already paid for artillery technology transfer, just as we have paid for tech for submarines and single crystal turbine blades. We just have to keep paying again and again.

It is inexcusable for a defense minister to plead that he cannot be efficient and honest at the same time. Let him find a job that is more suitable for his capability.

But then again, when the ruler is a semi-educated Sonia, anything goes.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Mar 2012 08:36

Semi Educated? In what? AKA is a simple man who depends a lot of babus of the department. Even if he want to do something babus will not allow it. He is not going to be assertive. No one in Congress in this UPA_II can be assertive as a rule on anything. Only Didi and Black glasses can be that.

I do hope OFB 155 project gets us some good arti. There is no way we can get some by any other method.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Mar 2012 08:52

Narayana Rao wrote:Semi Educated? In what?

AKA is a simple man who depends a lot of babus of the department. Even if he want to do something babus will not allow it. He is not going to be assertive. No one in Congress in this UPA_II can be assertive as a rule on anything.

Which is why they need to find some other profession.

vic · Post by **vic** » 16 Mar 2012 09:06

The huge amount of support given by Army to indigenous products and R&D is shown below by CAG report:-

Case I: Design and Development of 120 mm Long Range
Mortar (LRM) System and its ammunition

The GSQR envisaged the weapon system to have a
range of 10 Km, rate of fire of 8-10 bombs per minute, with a burst fire
capability of 12-15 rounds per minute. For portability, the mass of the
equipment was not to exceed 700 kg and the weight of the three main
components required for man/mule packing was not to exceed 450 Kg. The
system also had to be capable of being split into three convenient loads. Two
prototypes of the weapon system were required for trials.

The LRM developed by DRDO could not achieve the GSQR parameters as the
desired range and rate of fire or burst fire capability could not be met with a
low weight Mortar which was an inconsistency in the GSQR framed by the
Army. Director General (DG) Artillery, decided against going ahead with the
project. As a result, DRDO foreclosed the main project from December 2004
after incurring expenditure of ` 9.29 crore.

Army HQ while asking for
foreclosure of the project in December 2004 accepted that the range of 10000
meters was not achievable with the low weight stipulations. It was also
accepted that a mortar system with such QRs is not available in the world
market and therefore a fresh GSQR was being initiated.

Ministry in its reply agreed with audit and stated that decision has been taken
to procure the item through global tenders by diluting the GSQR parameters.
.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Mar 2012 09:45

vic wrote:The huge amount of support given by Army to indigenous products and R&D is shown below by CAG report:-

Case I: Design and Development of 120 mm Long Range
Mortar (LRM) System and its ammunition

The GSQR envisaged the weapon system to have a
range of 10 Km, rate of fire of 8-10 bombs per minute, with a burst fire
capability of 12-15 rounds per minute. For portability, the mass of the
equipment was not to exceed 700 kg and the weight of the three main
components required for man/mule packing was not to exceed 450 Kg. The
system also had to be capable of being split into three convenient loads. Two
prototypes of the weapon system were required for trials.

The LRM developed by DRDO could not achieve the GSQR parameters as the
desired range and rate of fire or burst fire capability could not be met with a
low weight Mortar which was an inconsistency in the GSQR framed by the
Army. Director General (DG) Artillery, decided against going ahead with the
project. As a result, DRDO foreclosed the main project from December 2004
after incurring expenditure of ` 9.29 crore.

Army HQ while asking for
foreclosure of the project in December 2004 accepted that the range of 10000
meters was not achievable with the low weight stipulations. It was also
accepted that a mortar system with such QRs is not available in the world
market and therefore a fresh GSQR was being initiated.

Ministry in its reply agreed with audit and stated that decision has been taken
to procure the item through global tenders by diluting the GSQR parameters.
.

You know, in Kerala (don't know about the rest of India), up until a few years ago, there were these women who always wanted "Foreign Sarees". As you would know, numerous Keralites are working in the Gulf and these women developed their tastes (and biases) being fed a steady stream of so called foreign goods. Now these sarees aren't particularly better or anything (there was a time when they were polyester mostly

), they might be made in South East Asia or China or EVEN INDIA. But, all that was besides the point. As long as it was delivered from a foreign country it was worthy and valuable, otherwise it was crap. Some of our old military men give me the same impression. This is some sort of mental disease, they need to go to therapy sessions. At the very least I hope these people die soon and leave the younger generations free to make their own decisions.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 16 Mar 2012 09:52

What a load of bullcrap!!
I mean when they watered down the GSQR, they might have as well let DRDO go ahead and develop the mortar by allowing relaxation in some specifications mentioned in the GSQR.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Mar 2012 10:08

Bala Vignesh wrote:What a load of bullcrap!!
I mean when they watered down the GSQR, they might have as well let DRDO go ahead and develop the mortar by allowing relaxation in some specifications mentioned in the GSQR.

But, but, but, I want foreign SAREE

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 16 Mar 2012 10:52

Kailash wrote:link

Nine Regiments of 130mm guns have already been upgraded in keeping with Artillery profile 2027. Various other gun systems are also at different stages of procurement. The modernization of Artillery is a continuous process and is being given priority to ensure that Artillery remains equipped with modern weapon systems.

Dont want to sound a party pooper on this, but are we sure that the upgrade is an upgrade of 130mm to 155mm and not some other cosmetic upgrade? The operative term should be that they were upgunned rather than upgraded since an upgrade could mean anything. Perhaps a nitpick from my side but then again dil to pagal hai

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Mar 2012 09:45

The IMI blacklisting issue, which every one were cussing. Now Swaraswat says:

development of a new system for the 155-mm artillery gun, a bi-modular charge system, which is ammunition for the 155-mm Howitzer gun, and new materials for high-temperature and armoured applications, including those required for hypersonic missiles and new generation turbines.

He added, "The bi-modular charge system or BMCS, as it is commonly referred to, has successfully gone through various trial processes and is now set to go for production by the Ordnance Factories soon."

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Mar 2012 11:18

It seems that drdo has been "wanting" to develop 155mm gun system for almost 20 years now but Army is not issuing it GSQRs. When DRDO started pressing too much Army has issued an order to OFB to reverse engineer Bofors 155mm gun which I think we will be melange of imported parts screwed together. The story of 120mm mortar, New follow on INSAS rifle and follow on Carl Gustaf RCL is similar. Army prefers imports in any form

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Mar 2012 13:15

^^^Your whine fest about IA wanting foreign stuff is quite well know. Can you please tell me what capability did DRDO have, or still has, to develop a 155mm caliber gun? And in what timeframe? OFB manufacturing 155/39 or 155/45 Cal guns is a much better route to ensure that guns are made locally - we'll be saved the project management fiasco of LCA while meeting the operational requirement of IA.