Artillery Discussion Thread

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schowdhuri
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby schowdhuri » 28 Mar 2012 21:15

ParGha wrote:Schowdhuri, the Soviets were using the 100-Gun concept to create fire-curtains and maneuvering infantry/armor in-between long before rocket-artillery became anything more than terror-weapons. It is incorrect to say that they massed the guns to substitute for the rocket artillery -- in fact the rockets still cannot safely provide the close fire-support/-cover that would enable you to sneak in the armor/mechanized-infantry.


Pargha,
Perhaps I was not clear - I meant that if you have money & resources, the lines between what tube arty should do & what rocket arty should do becomes rather blurred. If not, you obviously cut your coat according to your cloth, and come up with suitable theories of what something can or cannot do.

Of course, fully agree that you cannot do rolling fire as infantry advances with rockets. On the other hand, if you have enough rockets, you won't need to - there will be a big black hole where enemy infantry was.

Anyway, why are we talking of replacing one with the other, after all no arty brigade attached with a div is going to have rockets as standard equipment. Isn't the question whether the div should have additional rocket arty assets, or maybe beef up the corps arty brigade?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_22906 » 28 Mar 2012 23:35

chackojoseph wrote:Was an observation covering some. Hence I was not specific and will lead to tiff. I regret if that got miscommunication. The general point I want to make is that yes a single round of Smart MBRL Shell vs 155mm is costly. The cost of using them vs time, deployment, diplomatic window etc should be considered.


No offence taken CJ :)

My final 0.02$ on this would be that it would be great if we can have all the smart stuff within our SDRE budget, but unfortunately, it'll take some more time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 29 Mar 2012 00:15

Kalyani Group artillery to be featured.

Army chief General V K Singh’s leaked letter to defence minister A K Antony, which flagged the country’s lack of defence preparedness, casts a shadow over Defexpo India 2012, which kicks off in New Delhi tomorrow. However, the silver linings in the four-day event would be the impressive presence of several Indian private companies and newcomers in developing complex weaponry, with capabilities the defence ministry (MoD) can no longer ignore.

Among the most visible would be the Pune-headquartered Kalyani Group, which would emphatically project its ambition to develop artillery systems for the Indian Army. With foreign artillery procurement stalled for two decades, Baba Kalyani — who has shaped his flagship company, Bharat Forge, into the world’s largest forgings manufacturer — has committed the finance, the manpower and the strategic mind space he believes would make the Kalyani Group a full-spectrum developer of artillery systems.

Kalyani intends to start by building a 155 mm, 52-calibre towed howitzer, which the army desperately wants. Several years of user trials of foreign guns have only resulted in vendors being rejected, blacklisted, or withdrawn from the contest. Kalyani is now boldly offering an Indian alternative.

“I will offer to the Indian Army a fully developed artillery gun system, integrating all the command and control elements, before 2015,” he asserts.

To this end, the Kalyani Group has imported from Austrian gun manufacturer Maschinenfabrik Liezen (MFL) a service version of its famous 155 mm, 45-calibre, autonomous gun system, which had impressed Indian gunners when they evaluated it in the mid-1980s (though they bought the Bofors gun instead).

The Kalyani Group has also bought, knocked down and transported to India an entire operational artillery gun factory from Swiss company RUAG. Instead of learning the ropes of manufacturing artillery from scratch, Kalyani’s designers in Pune intend to absorb foreign technology, thereby leapfrogging an extended development process. Unlike many Indian private companies, Baba Kalyani is investing his own money into building capabilities. Given Bharat Forge’s hardcore engineering pedigree, he is confident he has the solution.

Says Kalyani: “There are the DRDO ((Defence Research & Development Organisation), the OFB (Ordnance Factory Board) and other excellent organisations that have design talent and capability. What India lacks is the ability to convert designs into manufactured products. This is where the Kalyani Group comes in. Building an artillery gun system is largely about materials, forgings and manufacturing. We have in our group the capability to be a top-class manufacturer of precision products.”

Kalyani Steel would provide the steel and metallurgy. The drives, engine, transmission, etc would be built by Automotive Axles Ltd, the Rs 2,000-crore Kalyani Group company and the largest manufacturer of axles in the region.

Alongside the engineering bravado, there is realism, too, about the Kalyani Group’s inexperience in creating the sophisticated software that underpins the gun control, fire correction and command and control systems, about 50 per cent of the overall gun system.

“Our strategy is to collaborate with entities that already have capabilities in electronics and guidance. (For this) we are in constant dialogue with the DRDO and the MoD. But we are confident about the precision engineering needed for the mechanical parts of the gun,” says Kalyani.

The only “missing link”, as Kalyani puts it, is the reliance on the MoD for testing facilities. Guns under development must be periodically tested through live firing. In India, this can only be conducted in cooperation with the Army. The MoD, rattled by the repeated failures of artillery gun procurement programmes, has already initiated two projects in the public sector to develop an artillery gun. The OFB has been asked to construct two 155 mm, 39-calibre guns from the engineering drawings that came with the Bofors gun in the mid-1980s. The OFB would then try to upgrade these into longer-range 155 mm, 45-calibre guns.

Simultaneously, the MoD has sanctioned Rs 150 crore for the DRDO to develop a 155 mm, 52-calibre gun. The DRDO’s Armament R&D Establishment (ARDE), Pune, would soon float a tender for an Indian industrial partner, in which the Kalyani Group intends to bid.

Such is the aggressiveness within the Group that it intends to develop its own gun on a parallel track, even if it becomes an industrial partner to the DRDO for the ARDE’s gun. Rajinder Bhatia, who would head this project, says, “We are willing to compete against ourselves. On one track, we will work with the DRDO, funded by the government. On our own track, we will fund ourselves. Baba Kalyani is willing to commit Rs 100 crore for this.”

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tejas » 29 Mar 2012 06:53

Seems like a lot of duplicated efforts here. Why not standardize across the board with a 155 mm 52 caliber gun for towed, wheeled and tracked platforms and reserve the 39 caliber gun for a light weight mountain version? And for the love of God if a first class manufacturer like Bharat Forge wants to get in the act let them try. The OFB has haunted India long enough.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Arunkumar » 29 Mar 2012 07:40

On our own track, we will fund ourselves. Baba Kalyani is willing to commit Rs 100 crore for this.”

Going by the kamandu heights DPSUs record , I hope this guy succeeds.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 29 Mar 2012 07:51

> what India lacks is the ability to convert designs into manufactured products.

well said. and about parallel efforts remember khan tries N ways of solving a problem by using competiting proposals upto eval stage and sometimes even awards a split to 2 protos. its necessary to widen the skill base and prevent single points of failure.
all power to him. good move to start off with the voest alpine gun. a DRDO doing thing would have to move N^10 files through MOD all the while harassed by the media and foreign agents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GC-45_howitzer
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 45rear.jpg (with APU removed it looks like)

details about the austrian gun...amazingly its a 'son' of the legendary GC-45 gerald bull gun that marked the quantum leap into all modern howitzers .... Denel called its version the G5, israeli bought rights to it and Soltam makes it, NORINCO licensed it and so did the austrians to make the GHN-45 ..

so its a proven and good design, the most illustrious bloodline in modern arty for sure. a gun born of the immortal blood of the vampire elders.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sum » 29 Mar 2012 08:17

^^ Really heartening to read Baba Kalyani's words and the determination shown ( atleast in his words).

Hope that the baboozes don't derail this and force him to abandon it due to some inane red-tape ( like how L&T's sub building complex is now rotting since MDL got a veto for P-75I also)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 29 Mar 2012 08:51

if by 2015 we have this approved for service i will start visiting a temple

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby akimalik » 29 Mar 2012 14:16

L&T and Samsung-Techwin Team up for Artillery Gun Programme

A proposal to develop the 155mm/52 calibre tracked, self propelled artillery, with L&T as the lead partner, had been submitted last year to the Ministry of Defence.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sum » 29 Mar 2012 14:49

^^ Well, Samsung seems to be in a hurry to join the "elite" list of companies black-listed by MoD.... godspeed to them on that :mrgreen: :evil:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Sriman » 29 Mar 2012 14:52

Surya wrote:if by 2015 we have this approved for service i will distribute mithai worth it's weight

Quoted for posterity :P :mrgreen:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Snehashis » 29 Mar 2012 15:19

akimalik wrote:L&T and Samsung-Techwin Team up for Artillery Gun Programme

A proposal to develop the 155mm/52 calibre tracked, self propelled artillery, with L&T as the lead partner, had been submitted last year to the Ministry of Defence.



SP's Show News claims the L&T is joining hand with Nexter for towed gun contest. It's raining gun! :twisted:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 29 Mar 2012 15:26

Its only thundering guns..... from a long time.....
It is yet to rain............

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_19648 » 29 Mar 2012 16:13

none of the guns can be fielded before 2015, as a stop gap measure, some guns could have been imported to meet operational reqts. The alarm raised by the army chief is about operational deficiencies in the present and 2015 is a long way off.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Snehashis » 29 Mar 2012 16:32

Ivanev wrote:none of the guns can be fielded before 2015, as a stop gap measure, some guns could have been imported to meet operational reqts. The alarm raised by the army chief is about operational deficiencies in the present and 2015 is a long way off.



It will take at least 30 months from issuing rfp to awarding contract if there is no re-trial and cancellation.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby KiranM » 29 Mar 2012 16:57

Singha wrote:the 10th mountain seems to have:
4 brigades + 1 aviation brigade
each brigade has
2 x infantry
1 x cavalry
1 x field artillery
not sure what the cavalry uses - Stryker or bradley or if they have tanks also.


10th retains 'Mountain' only due to its history. In reality it is more of a light infantry division. Hence, the presence of 'cavalry'. The only US Army unit that specialize in Mountain warfare is the Vermont National Guard's 3rd Battalion 172nd Infantry Regiment.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 29 Mar 2012 17:08

Snehashis wrote:
It will take at least 30 months from issuing rfp to awarding contract if there is no re-trial and cancellation.


All that is fine, but who do we Request for Proposal?? Every gun manufacturer of some repute has either been blacklisted or being investigated or dropped of the contract..

The only option seems to be local development and hence all these activity in this sector.. Had we been able to import the same, we would have again scuttled the OFB proposal..

Sorry about the rant...

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 29 Mar 2012 18:19

the more the merrier


I don't care if one sells to the BSF too :twisted:


then there is always exports to think

One can dream !!!

Its amazing what the country can do when afire is lit under its ass. sigh.....

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 29 Mar 2012 19:49

> The only US Army unit that specialize in Mountain warfare is the Vermont National Guard's 3rd Battalion 172nd Infantry Regiment.

you mean the US has all of 900 people trained and equipped to operate in areas like higher reaches of ladakh? how did they plan to fight in the mountains of norway, sweden and italy incase of a soviet breakthrough?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 29 Mar 2012 19:57

the beauty of the Soko K9 Thunder system is a K10 ammo reload vehicle shares the same chassis and goes over the same terrain at same speed. so a good number of ready rounds travel with the unit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K9_Thunder

The K10 is an automatic ammunition resupply vehicle built on the K9 platform, part of the K9 Thunder system. It shares the same chassis as K9, preserving K9's mobility, and can follow the main artillery battery without lagging behind.[6] Maximum transfer rate of shells is 12 rounds per minute, and maximum load of shells is 104 rounds.[7]
The reloading process is fully automated. The reloading is done through a munition bridge on the K10 that extends out to lock itself into a reception hole located at the rear of the K9. This allows the unit to rearm itself under harsh combat conditions without the crew having to expose themselves to the combat environment

---
the M109 being a old system does not have this. Neither does the much feared PZH2000, wherein loading is done by hand using a retractable drawer in the back of chassis.
only the cancelled Crusader system had this automatic reload vehicle concept.
you can see it in 2:09 here as the powered drawer at press of a button feeds in the round into the magazine inside....rather slow and prone to manpower issue vs the auto reload vehicle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2FzNZahxf4

another thing is even the charges seems to be fetched and rammed in automatically from a wine rack type set of armoured bins, apart from autoloading the shells. in the PZH
a loader has to feed the charge manually after the shell is autoloaded. you see this here and also the ARV in operation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVdoBWBmUYQ

I would say if the interior machinery is reliable, a K9K10 unit will make do with less manpower, operate in harsher conditions with less fatigue and pump out more rounds over a period of N days vs a comparable size of M109/Pzh unit.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Snehashis » 29 Mar 2012 20:40

Singha, we have rejected it once a hybrid version like Bhim T6 due to single vendor scenario.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Yogi_G » 29 Mar 2012 21:27

akimalik wrote:L&T and Samsung-Techwin Team up for Artillery Gun Programme

A proposal to develop the 155mm/52 calibre tracked, self propelled artillery, with L&T as the lead partner, had been submitted last year to the Ministry of Defence.


hope Army doesnt have to use Kies to upgrade the gun's firmware. :P

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 29 Mar 2012 22:00

IBN reported pinaka being used with only unguided rockets. I guess, gps based guidance could be even more potent use of pinaka rather just unguided, improving the CEP.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 30 Mar 2012 00:53

Just saw this.
It appears that like F77b with the tow truck has identical and nearly equal capabilities to systems like Archer.

Tracked Artillery is a different story though.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 30 Mar 2012 01:35

OFB SPH at Def Expo 2012

Img1
Img2

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Snehashis » 30 Mar 2012 01:44

koti wrote:OFB SPH at Def Expo 2012

Img1
Img2



koti, any info on the rate of fire and ammunition carried on the vehicle ? Any order forthcoming from the Army ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 30 Mar 2012 01:56

^^nope, sorry.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 30 Mar 2012 07:07

> hope Army doesnt have to use Kies to upgrade the gun's firmware.

thats equivalent to being hit by counter battery fire. ODIN is the lifesaver.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby schowdhuri » 30 Mar 2012 08:56

koti wrote:OFB SPH at Def Expo 2012

Img1
Img2



This is a joke, right???

What is the purpose of SP guns? The same as wheeled arty, except that they support armoured div's where wheeled arty will not be able to keep up. SP arty functioning is same as wheeled arty - i.e they don't fire on the move. Obviously, SP arty calibre needs to be high (current std of 155mm). If we have to use this stupid contraption, why not just bring back the Abbot which is also 105mm, and one of the best SP guns of it's time. Over 3 decades back the army used to curse the Abbot because of it's low calibre (same as the Vijayanta's, which was unacceptable), and now OFB brings the same calibre back.

This is just having a party with taxpayer money.

Few decade back a good Russian 152SP was rejected - at that time we thought maybe GIAT will come in - big joke!!!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tejas » 30 Mar 2012 09:04

Look at the truck that gun is mounted on. To come out with a product that shabby looking is frankly embarrassing. Looks like is was made in the Korean war.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 30 Mar 2012 09:27

er just a thought - how about this replacing the IFG 105mm towed? the kind of artillery positions in the plains or reverse slopes of kargil, protected by sandbags and with lots of ammo lying around would be devasted by high angle airburst or MLRS fire. and the chinese unlike the pakis have plenty of guns, tubes and radars and are always getting more.
I read somewhere that latest 105mm rounds can provide upto 25-30km range and high lethality which is quite good.

looks can always be brushed up, if the concept is workable. for example can be mounted on a stallion 6x6 for higher mobility and more tfta looks. a armoured travelling crew cum firing control panel can be added in rear of crew cab.

for cost reasons I doubt we will be able to afford enough Archer types, even if by some miracle the deal goes through. the automatic magazine reload system seen in archer can perhaps be ported down to our 105mm also as a mini-archer to avoid manual loading and crew exposure.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 30 Mar 2012 09:46

Singha saab, can you address this?
koti wrote:Just saw this.
It appears that like F77b with the tow truck has identical and nearly equal capabilities to systems like Archer.
Tracked Artillery is a different story though.

I feel the F77B with the tow truck is itself a similar concept to the Archer. All we need to add is around 2 min lead time before it can fire and around 2 min lead time before it can scoot in comparison to Archer AFAIU.
It has adequate ammunition carrying capacity, protected crew cabin and an overall lower demanding(complex) vehicle. Cost wise this should enable us to have more guns on the ground.
OTOH Tracked Arty like K-9:K-10 is a must.
Adding 4 types of 155mm arty (Tow, SPH, Tracked, Ultra light) doesn't seem quite good(and getting none).

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 30 Mar 2012 09:52

the archer looks like a much shorter vehicle compared to the tow truck + FH77 articulated combo. its a swivelling joint right behind the cab. might be easier to drive it on hilly roads. apparently our bofors trucks had a rough time getting around some corners of NH1 north of srinagar enroute to kargil area.

I guess in plains regions it will not matter. but the whole focus of next 10 yrs is mountain area modernization so ...

archer is more future proof in the sense if someone tightens their WLR spotting to MLRS fire loop down to < 1 min, all towed gun units would be in trouble.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem » 30 Mar 2012 10:30

I was under the impression that Desi 105mm Shells carry extra explosive power because it uses latest, super duper masala ( i cant recall the name as it was discussed here few months ago)developed by DRDO.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sum » 30 Mar 2012 10:55

^^Jhujar-ji, think you meant CL-20?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Mar 2012 12:18

And the shells are called HEER

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 30 Mar 2012 12:23

I get the HE part, but what is the extended range there?? Is the charge that is used to propel the shell out of the gun also use CL-20???

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby schowdhuri » 30 Mar 2012 12:59

Singha wrote:er just a thought - how about this replacing the IFG 105mm towed? the kind of artillery positions in the plains or reverse slopes of kargil, protected by sandbags and with lots of ammo lying around would be devasted by high angle airburst or MLRS fire. and the chinese unlike the pakis have plenty of guns, tubes and radars and are always getting more.
I read somewhere that latest 105mm rounds can provide upto 25-30km range and high lethality which is quite good.


Singha,
Why? Please see my previous post. We already had an excellent SP Gun (Abott) which is 105mm - but 105mm just does not cut it for SP anymore. It would be a utter waste (and possibly a scam) to bring this 'khichdi' into service. If 105SP was OK, desperate experiments like the Catapault would not have been done.

Not sure about HEER - would love to know if it be used for extended time, and the effect it has on the barrel. Even the 25pdr had super charge, but that was for limited use only.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 30 Mar 2012 21:36

I think HEER is just another name for the 'base bleed' shells. as this is just a long burning propellant inside the shell, after it leaves the barrel via conventional charge, probably it does not impact barrel wear and tear? same for RAP shells...the rocket burns after the shell exits.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Snehashis » 30 Mar 2012 22:04

155 mm SHELL HEER



It is a high explosive extended range (HEER) Shell. The shell comprises of a forged and machined special steel body. The body possesses optimised geometry to improve the ballistic co-efficient (Reduced drag). The rear of the body is externally threaded to receive the Base Bleed unit (BBU). The BBU reduces the drag and gives additional thrust to carry the shell further.




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