Artillery Discussion Thread

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_19648 » 18 Jul 2012 12:00

I remember in defexpo, kalyani industries had announced their foray into defence sector with their artillery systems. IIRC, they had stated 2015 when they would offer a 155 artillery system, lots of other companies coming into the foray, I believe after 2015, there would be multiple good indigenous artillery systems on the offer. Worth a read below -

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/kalyani-group-artillery-to-be-featured/469398/

Kalyani Group artillery to be featured

Army chief General V K Singh’s leaked letter to defence minister A K Antony, which flagged the country’s lack of defence preparedness, casts a shadow over Defexpo India 2012, which kicks off in New Delhi tomorrow. However, the silver linings in the four-day event would be the impressive presence of several Indian private companies and newcomers in developing complex weaponry, with capabilities the defence ministry (MoD) can no longer ignore.

Among the most visible would be the Pune-headquartered Kalyani Group, which would emphatically project its ambition to develop artillery systems for the Indian Army. With foreign artillery procurement stalled for two decades, Baba Kalyani — who has shaped his flagship company, Bharat Forge, into the world’s largest forgings manufacturer — has committed the finance, the manpower and the strategic mind space he believes would make the Kalyani Group a full-spectrum developer of artillery systems.

Kalyani intends to start by building a 155 mm, 52-calibre towed howitzer, which the army desperately wants. Several years of user trials of foreign guns have only resulted in vendors being rejected, blacklisted, or withdrawn from the contest. Kalyani is now boldly offering an Indian alternative.

“I will offer to the Indian Army a fully developed artillery gun system, integrating all the command and control elements, before 2015,” he asserts.

To this end, the Kalyani Group has imported from Austrian gun manufacturer Maschinenfabrik Liezen (MFL) a service version of its famous 155 mm, 45-calibre, autonomous gun system, which had impressed Indian gunners when they evaluated it in the mid-1980s (though they bought the Bofors gun instead).

The Kalyani Group has also bought, knocked down and transported to India an entire operational artillery gun factory from Swiss company RUAG. Instead of learning the ropes of manufacturing artillery from scratch, Kalyani’s designers in Pune intend to absorb foreign technology, thereby leapfrogging an extended development process. Unlike many Indian private companies, Baba Kalyani is investing his own money into building capabilities. Given Bharat Forge’s hardcore engineering pedigree, he is confident he has the solution.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 18 Jul 2012 13:08

kalyani is following a pragmatic strategy. their voest alpine design is one of the original "children" of the gerald bull work...so technically it will be sound.
given the size of our orders and the risk/cost these pvt players are bearing its imo better the orders be split among multiple players so that all may recover some investment and have some incentive to persevere rather than a winner takes all munna kind of deal. ofcourse a minimum bar should be set.

with JBMOU std, the 155mm rounds and charges will be interoperable across guns and all these pvt players making the guns in India should be able to provide good and timely OEM service both at base and in the more frontline areas.

we need to develop multiple nodes of competence not just one.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby saje » 18 Jul 2012 13:20

http://idp.justthe80.com/army-projects/guns/155-mm-52-caliber-tracked-gun

As per the above article there are the below projects currently being considered for the artillery guns for the IA. Scratch 2 and we are still left with 3 options. Not bad!

1.OFB Made Bofors 155mm / 52 Caliber Gun
2.Bofors TOT (same as above?)
3.Indigenous 155m / 52 Caliber Gun
4.Kalyani Group's 155mm/45 Caliber Gun
5.L&T 155mm / 52 Calibre Tracked Self Propelled Artillery
6.Bhim T6 155mm / 52 Caliber Gun

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 18 Jul 2012 13:23

#1 and #2 are somewhat different I believe, though #1 might use ideas and tech sourced via #2.
#1 is only going for 45cal iirc and #2 is 52-cal from day1.

L&T is the only runner for the Truck/Tank SP thing. they should be given a fat order.

divide up the towed guns between the other 3 if they all make the mark.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_19648 » 18 Jul 2012 13:25

saje wrote:1.OFB Made Bofors 155mm / 52 Caliber Gun
2.Bofors TOT (same as above?)

Bofors TOT is a separate project and the first one might be the DRDO Project for a futuristic artillery system, apart from the OFB ones based on bofors TOT which was supposedly undergoing trials this year and might be available in the immediate future, the other ones would be available mostly after 2015.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby gkriish » 31 Jul 2012 04:41

I read in another forum that the indian army has placed order for 100 OFB made artillery but i do not how credible it
is as i was not able to find any link based on the news if any one can find out that would be wonderful

HERE IS THE ARTICLE ANYWAYS

Indigenous artillery guns meet parameters; Army orders 100

rials of indigenously produced new artillery guns, meant to replace the Army's inventory of 155 mm Howitzers supplied by AB Bofors around 25 years ago, have been promising. In its assessment of the trials carried out this summer in Rajasthan, the Army has said the guns have met the "stipulated parameters'.

Produced by the Ordnance Factory Board, these guns are 155 mm, 45 calibre howitzers. These look like Bofors and have the capacity to fire up to a distance of 32 km. These guns were tested near Pokhran in Rajasthan during May this year.

Around 100 such guns have been ordered by the Army and are based more or less on the existing Bofors design for which the OFB holds the Transfer of Technology (ToT) licence from the Bofors. Research for the manufacture of a number of variants of the howitzer is underway and is nearing completion.

The Army has expressed keenness to have 155 mm 52 calibre guns which the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will produce. The original AB Bofors-inducted in 1987-is 39 calibre. The "calibre" of a gun is primarily the length of its barrel that helps the ammunition in travelling farther. A 52 calibre gun will fire around 4-5 km more than other variants.

The recently ordered 100 guns of 45 calibre, coupled with 145 ultra-light howitzers (ULH) and the upcoming 52 calibre gun being produced by the DRDO are expected to end the shortage of artillery guns in the Indian Inventory. As part of its artillery modernisation plan, the Army plans to purchase a total of 400 howitzers that can be towed away, along with 180 self-propelled ones and 145 ULH.

Apart from the order placed to the OFB, the Ministry of Defence has okayed the purchase of 145 ULH under a $700-million deal through the foreign military sales (FMS) route between the US and India. Named the M777, these guns weigh just 3,200 kg each and can be slung under a helicopter to be dropped in mountain areas that are inaccessible by road. These guns will be stationed in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh - both facing China.

FIRE POWER

Produced by the Ordnance Factory Board, new artillery guns are 155 mm, 45 calibre howitzers
Can fire up to a distance of 32 km
These will replace Army's inventory of 155 mm Howitzers supplied by AB Bofors around 25 yrs ago

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby gkriish » 31 Jul 2012 05:26

yes it is confirmed news thanks to a friend he gave a valid link here it is


http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/ar ... 61416.html
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... -howitzers

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 31 Jul 2012 06:34

Has the order for the M777 been approved by the CCS as yet?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 31 Jul 2012 06:47

not that I have read yet.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 31 Jul 2012 07:50

Folks read the write up about the scientists being honored in the August DRDO newsletter posted in the DRDO thread.

A whole slew of technologies have been proven and are ready to go.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Katare » 31 Jul 2012 08:09

I think there are 3 calibers at play-

100 Ordered from OFB - 39 caliber (ToT)
DRDO would help OFB upgrade same gun to 45 caiber
DRDO developing a 52 calibre gun from scratch with latest technologies.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby alexis » 31 Jul 2012 16:03

Katare wrote:I think there are 3 calibers at play-

100 Ordered from OFB - 39 caliber (ToT)
DRDO would help OFB upgrade same gun to 45 caiber
DRDO developing a 52 calibre gun from scratch with latest technologies.


But the reports state 100 gun order is for 52 caliber gun; if correct, it implies a token order to incentivise OFB/DRDO to produce the 52 caliber version

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_23657 » 31 Jul 2012 19:31

alexis wrote:
Katare wrote:I think there are 3 calibers at play-

100 Ordered from OFB - 39 caliber (ToT)
DRDO would help OFB upgrade same gun to 45 caiber
DRDO developing a 52 calibre gun from scratch with latest technologies.


But the reports state 100 gun order is for 52 caliber gun; if correct, it implies a token order to incentivise OFB/DRDO to produce the 52 caliber version


It says 100 -155 mm 45 calibre howitzers

Trials of indigenously produced new artillery guns, meant to replace the Army’s inventory of 155 mm Howitzers supplied by AB Bofors around 25 years ago, have been promising. In its assessment of the trials carried out this summer in Rajasthan, the Army has said the guns have met the “stipulated parameters’. Produced by the Ordnance Factory Board, these guns are 155 mm, 45 calibre howitzers. These look like Bofors and have the capacity to fire up to a distance of 32 km. These guns were tested near Pokhran in Rajasthan during May this year. Around 100 such guns have been ordered by the Army and are based more or less on the existing Bofors design for which the OFB holds the Transfer of Technology (ToT) licence from the Bofors.

Research for the manufacture of a number of variants of the howitzer is underway and is nearing completion. The Army has expressed keenness to have 155 mm 52 calibre guns which the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will produce. The original AB Bofors-inducted in 1987-is 39 calibre. The “calibre” of a gun is primarily the length of its barrel that helps the ammunition in travelling farther. A 52 calibre gun will fire around 4-5 km more than other variants.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby A Sharma » 15 Aug 2012 21:58

Ordnance factory manufactures 155mm field

KANPUR: Ordnance factory, Kanpur, touched a new height of glory by manufacturing 155 mm gun which has strongest barrel in its class tested so far in the country. It is termed as futuristic gun by the Indian Army.The ordnance factory has been developing various designs of these guns, keeping in view the stringent quality parameters of the army.The OEF, Kanpur was given a challenge of developing totally indigenous 155 mm, 39 calibre guns within a short span of seven months. The factory completed the task within the deadline.General manager Virendra Gandhi praised the efforts of the team for doing a wonderful job. He will give special award to all the team members on the occasion of Independence day celebrations.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby narmad » 16 Aug 2012 20:56

A Sharma wrote:

It is termed as futuristic gun by the Indian Army.The ordnance factory has been developing various designs of these guns, keeping in view the stringent quality parameters of the army.The OEF, Kanpur was given a challenge of developing totally indigenous 155 mm, 39 calibre guns within a short span of seven months. The factory completed the task within the deadline.General manager Virendra Gandhi praised the efforts of the team for doing a wonderful job. He will give special award to all the team members on the occasion of Independence day celebrations.


So this gun is based on the Original Design from Bofors, and is an exact replica of the existing FH77 gun?
It took only 7 months to build a gun locally, i wonder why we couldn't do it for so many years ?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_22539 » 16 Aug 2012 21:33

^^ Too busy trying to squeeze bribes out of foreign arms dealers from new and fantastic foreign guns. Now that it turned out to be a pipe dream, they suddenly realized that they practically made spare parts for most of the gun and hence can put them together (with a few crucial additions) and make a brand new gun.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 25 Aug 2012 08:35

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19586
The RFI, which specifies nothing apart from the requirement of a 155mm 45/52cal gun, leaves the door open for systems that could include the Konštrukta SpGH Zuzana 2, Nexter CAESAR, Rheinmetall RWG-52 and BAE-Bofors FH77 BW L52 Archer.

After cancelling its last attempt at procuring 180 wheeled self-propelled 155mm artillery systems, the Army has begun the process afresh, sending out a new RFI to prospective vendors


Will the politics repeat?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 25 Aug 2012 10:46

I fail to understand this repeated exercise. Why not get an expression of interest from the domestic industry and let them deliver. That way all the money is spent in India. Generating more then a few jobs.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Will » 25 Aug 2012 11:32

SaiK wrote:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19586
The RFI, which specifies nothing apart from the requirement of a 155mm 45/52cal gun, leaves the door open for systems that could include the Konštrukta SpGH Zuzana 2, Nexter CAESAR, Rheinmetall RWG-52 and BAE-Bofors FH77 BW L52 Archer.

After cancelling its last attempt at procuring 180 wheeled self-propelled 155mm artillery systems, the Army has begun the process afresh, sending out a new RFI to prospective vendors


Will the politics repeat?


Here we go again. The start of another saga. Wonder why the number is only 180. The world is moving towards mobile artillery - wheeled and tracked versions. The IA needs to get out of is WWII slumber.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 25 Aug 2012 18:13

+1. instead of 180 uber guns plated with gold and lined with platinum, we need 750-1000 mobile tracked 155mm guns of the lightweight, sasta and tikau type like the M109A5 which the US army still field enmasse and has no intention of replacing.

we could get 100s of units refurbished from a boneyard like the pakis did, and get 100s more on the cheap newly made, vs the archer and donar types which will cost a bomb both to buy and keep in service.

spend the money on a couple of foxconn type plants that churn out 20,000 shells a day and a fleet of heavy tatas and AL to beef up the logistical side of the arty units. for mate them into khan style "raiding" divisions and battle groups -a mix of SP guns, MBTs, IFVs, Rudra/WSI/Dhruvs , WLRs, Akash and tunguska and a thick logistical tail of 3-axle Tata/AL/M&M types bringup up supplies from stores and depots.
Last edited by Singha on 25 Aug 2012 20:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 25 Aug 2012 20:01

if only Singhas wishes could come true

:(

these ridiculous 10s of orders for getting on my nereves

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 25 Aug 2012 20:04

pakis have about 250 odd a2s.. correct? what more IA needs in terms of testosterone to think?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 25 Aug 2012 20:31

most of the time we get some N number of very costly stuff , after a long acquisition struggle, then lament the fact that
- we cannot afford more due to capex and opex, other urgent needs
- Cheen is building up 5*N number of similar domestic stuff that is 75% as good but our N cannot cover all the areas that 5*N can , so in 4*N worth of sectors were are nanga or facing them with older / weaker stuff thats 50% as good as their stuff.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 25 Aug 2012 23:48

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4151.html
PLZ05 155mm .. they sold it to kuwait.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 26 Aug 2012 11:01

the PLZ thing was not used in PLA, it was a pvt project that was for export only and did not sell much.
however the SH1 truck mounted 155/52 gun seems to have found takers in Pak, BD and Myanmar atleast. the pakis claim to have or to have ordered 90 of them
http://www.armyrecognition.com/china_ch ... tures.html

might not be a tfta as the archer, but who cares, it will work fine when use enmasse. 90 > 0 for sure.

"the best is the enemy of the good" is an apt saying for our artillery programs...infact many defence programs here.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 26 Aug 2012 11:22

Going overboard with the criticism again, are we? How about some 5 minutes of Google search on the subject before become keyboard ninjas?

From what I understand, the requirement for armored SP Arty (Tracked+Wheeled) is some 360 odd guns or equivalent for 20 regiment - which should be enough for the 3 x armored divisions. The main category of SP Arty is going to be the mounted systems like French NEXTER or Israeli Caesar - some 40 regiments worth of guns. As for Pakistan Army - well, beggars can't be choosers. They make do with whatever they have. Their artillery is a hotch-potch of systems and given the money required, I don't think they will ever manage to standardize the caliber.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 26 Aug 2012 11:27

nobody here would criticize if we even had a trickle of purchase orders going through. but as it stands, the last major guns we got were in 80s. and even the M777 thing has become embroiled in some case?
even the Pinaka induction is now halted because the BEML tatra scam (one another note the head of tatra USA was also arrested by the czech police recently).

so another vehicle has to be qualified for our missile and rocket regiments now!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_20453 » 26 Aug 2012 12:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN-0nlQosRA&feature=fvst

Archer seems like the best option, easy to load and operate. buy a 180 of these and manufacture another 820 of these with full-tot in India.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 26 Aug 2012 13:09

It is better to buy 3 times the towed indigenous guns at similar price and pre position them ahead. Foreign import murdabad.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_23651 » 26 Aug 2012 14:49

Hello Guys, is there any publcily avaialble pic of OFB developed 155 towed howitzer? Thanks much in advance. I remember there was one photo floating around of the art piece being displayed in a def expo. Cant find it. Thanks much in advance

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby aniket » 26 Aug 2012 16:49


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 26 Aug 2012 17:18

OFB has been trying to develop spares and parts of Bofors from more than a decade. Hence nothing happened overnight. Only now the cumulative expertise has reached the stage of reverse engineering. I think even now chasis etc of gun may come from Pvt channels. GOI has allotted Rs. 375 crores for setting up production line + order for (114?) 100 howitzers.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 26 Aug 2012 20:22

Singha wrote:<SNIP>even the Pinaka induction is now halted because the BEML tatra scam (one another note the head of tatra USA was also arrested by the czech police recently).so another vehicle has to be qualified for our missile and rocket regiments now!


Which actually is a boon in disguise. TATA has a family of vehicles which can be used for mounting the Pinaka system - I'm sure they chose TATRA because of the BEML angle and the interests we now know of...I'm sure you'd seen the video of BM-21 system being tested on TATA platform..I really hope someone has thought of manufacturing these inexpensive systems and supplying@1 regiment per infantry division artillery brigade. We can have the expensive systems like Pinaka and Smerch with Corps Artillery Brigades and Artillery Divisions.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 26 Aug 2012 20:30

I disagree in the boon in disguise analysis. The fact still remains on the loopholes in the system, especially when you consider the user remains keeping the gaping holes. All these problems only shows the seriousness we have on acquiring systems, and there is no real need - meaning neither chippanda or pakis pose a threat for us to take these as serious buys. Now, that is also where we have massive gap setup, where not a single purchase is clean and devoid of issues. The stories only repeat, and it is all a fish-bone direction where one could easily add one more fuel to the fire.. and we keep blaming DDM and aam minds blaming IA and forces, but when you see something so clear, there is no reason for anyone not to join a correction thought process.

I am appalled by the approaches we have established.. the only way we can be corrected it looks like, pakis and chippanda start attacking us from left and right knowing these weaknesses.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 26 Aug 2012 20:31



There seem to be two 155 x 45 Cal guns...the first gun on the page and the subsequent close up images have different barrels but both read as OFB 155 x 45 Cal upgrade. Can someone enlighten this ignorant soul? :-?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 26 Aug 2012 22:15

whats happening the bharat forge venture

after all the trouble they are taking to bring the factory in

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VKumar » 26 Aug 2012 23:08

India's border with TSP is about 3300Km. If we have a large number of 105mm or 130mm guns, would it make sense to position one every 5 km or so, about 5Km to 10Km inside our border? add a truck for towing to change locations. Give each position an UAV for monitoring infiltration.

Maybe repeat on China border.

Just a thought.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 26 Aug 2012 23:58

Rakshaks, may I beg a favour please :?:

I think I remember reading that the DRDO has floated an open tender for technology companies from around the world to offer their technologies for the production of an upcoming 155mm artillery piece to be designed by DRDO and built by OFB.

If this is correct, could you please post a link to the Request for Proposals (RFP)?
Otherwise, exactly where are RFPs posted online? Is there a central GoI web portal to all government tenders?

Please advise.

Thanks,

Ravi Karumanchiri

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Ankit Desai » 27 Aug 2012 00:04

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Otherwise, exactly where are RFPs posted online? Is there a central GoI web portal to all government tenders?


Tenders

-Ankit

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Snehashis » 27 Aug 2012 01:02

rohitvats wrote:


There seem to be two 155 x 45 Cal guns...the first gun on the page and the subsequent close up images have different barrels but both read as OFB 155 x 45 Cal upgrade. Can someone enlighten this ignorant soul? :-?



http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/at ... 1156932453


This one is an old one rejected by the army due to low barrel life nearly a decade ago. The newer one looks identical to Bofors tubes which has a good barrel life according to the reports. No idea who provided the metallurgy though.


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