Artillery Discussion Thread

[Ramesh]

I'm guessing he meant to say Bofors-BAE.

[Ramesh]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10414

The 155 mm ERFB ammunition, developed for Bofors gun, is designed to achieve an extended range of 32 km, which is 25 per cent more than its normal range,"

[Ramesh]

Boforsphobia, red tender tape bind Army
Indian Express

Boforsphobia, red tender tape bind Army
Manu Pubby
Posted: Dec 18, 2008 at 0318 hrs IST

New Delhi: In 1999, when a brief but bloody battle was being fought to evict Pakistani intruders from strategic heights along the Line of Control, one of the most important lessons learnt was that the Army was woefully short when it came to artillery guns. The Government even had to make emergency purchases of ammunition from South Africa to arm the guns after Army stocks ran out.

A decade after the Kargil conflict, nothing seems to have changed. The Army has not received any new artillery gun in the last 20 years, three separate proposals to buy new guns have been stuck since 2000, the backbone of the Army’s air defence dates back to the Second World War and the Artillery regiment still depends on obsolete equipment that was designed in the 1950s.

“After the Kargil war, we decided we needed more 155 mm artillery guns. Till date, nothing has been added to the kitty. So we have made no progress on the artillery front,” says General (retd) VP Malik who commanded the Army during the Kargil conflict.

A flawed procurement procedure, government indecision and the ghosts of the Bofors scandal have hit the Army where it hurts the most.
The artillery, all experts agree, is the weakest point in India’s defence armour. The Army, warn military analysts, will be hard pressed to deploy enough guns even if a limited conflict broke out all along the LoC.

The issue is that despite lessons drawn from the Kargil conflict and the 2001 Op Parakram troop mobilisation, the Army has not acquired an edge that will back up efforts of “coercive diplomacy” in the wake of the Mumbai Terror attacks.

“In case a conventional war is fought, you need a decisive edge. Guns are the crux of the whole issue. What we haven’t got is the edge. You can’t talk about coercive diplomacy if you are at parity,” says former Army Chief General Shankar Roychowdhury.

And not without reason. The mainstay gun of the artillery is the Russian 130 mm M-46 that was due for replacement in the 1990s. The most advanced gun is the Bofors 155 mm Howitzer that was supposed to replace the M-46 but supplies stopped after it got embroiled in the scandal.

The problem lies in numbers. While 410 Bofors guns were purchased, less than 300 remain in active service after spare parts stopped coming in once the company was blacklisted by the government. The M-46 guns are being slowly upgraded by Soltham (Israel) but the results have not been very satisfactory. Pakistan, on the other hand, has bought 115 new 155 mm howitzers from the US under the War on Terror pact.

While the Army had planned replacements for these guns, all three procurement processes got stuck and delayed by a decade. The Army wanted to replace all its M-46 guns with new 155 mm howitzers. When a new tender was finally issued in 2001 after the Bofors scandal, it took six years of trials and evaluations for the Army to say that none of the contenders were good enough.

While there was buzz that the tender was cancelled because the Bofors again emerged as the best of the lot, the Ministry of Defence maintained that no contender qualified for the tenders. A new tender has been put out this year but the procurement process has been pushed back by a decade.

“This tendering, re-tendering and the phobia (of signing deals) is really crippling the Army. It is very disheartening that just because the name Bofors pops up, even if it performs well, things get dropped. We should get over the phobia,” says Gen Roychowdhury.

Other programmes, including one to procure 155 mm Self Propelled (Wheeled and Tracked) guns, have been stuck for close to a decade. While the tracked project got scrapped after eight years of joint development that started in 1999 after Denel was blacklisted, the Army was unable to find a suitable gun for the other tender.

This, after a Parliamentary panel told the Ministry of Defence in 2000 that it should speed trials and procure at least 120 self-propelled guns by 2002. But the guns are nowhere near procurement. A fresh tender has been issued this year, three years after the last procurement process was quashed.

Worse off than the Artillery is the Army’s Air Defence network. The network, set up to protect Army field formations and vital installations from air attack, still relies on guns that date back to the World War II. The Bofors L 40/70 guns that forms the backbone of the AAD are relegated to museums in most countries that used it till the 1980s and early 1990s.

While the guns have been modified, Gen Roychowdhury says it is a “laughable sight to see that the Bofors air defence guns, almost of WW II vintage, cosmetically modernised, still form the backbone of the Army Air Defence”. Despite the changed scenario in threat perception from the air and raising of new commands, the AD gun levels have remained constant over the past three decades.

Experts warn that India will have to pay a heavy price for this glaring “operational gap” in firepower in the event of any outbreak of conventional hostilities. Any conflict on the western border, the experts point out, will be a battle of attrition rather than invasion.

“With Pakistan making clear that its nuclear threshold is low, a deep manoeuvre into the country will be too great a risk. In such a case, victory will be achieved by destroying the war-making machinery of the country. For that we need firepower and we are not adequately prepared,” says Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal, Director of the Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS) and a former artillery officer.

Artillery

105 mm Indian field guns: In service for over 30 yrs, obsolete. Need replacement.

130 mm M-46: Backbone of artillery. Was due for replacement in ’90s. Being upgraded to 155 mm by Soltham as interim step, results not satisfactory

155 mm Bofors: 410 were purchased in the late 1980s, spare parts stopped after ban. Fewer than 300 in service

Procurement

155 mm towed: Tenders in 2001, scrapped after 6 yrs. Fresh tendering on, will take 5 yrs

155 mm self-propelled (wheeled): Most firms rejected in 2005. Fresh tenders issued. Expect 5-yr delay

155 mm self-propelled (tracked): After 7-yr trial, Denel selected.

Pause after firm blacklisted; fresh tenders issued. Delayed by another five years

[Ramesh]

During this time Smerch, upgraded Grad, Pinaka have been added which increase arti power

[Ramesh]

But rockets cannot replace guns. Only a sustained fire from multiple howitzers can clear entrenched enenmy in the mountains.

During this time Smerch, upgraded Grad, Pinaka have been added which increase arti power

[Ramesh]

Indian Army to buy new artillery gun

Twenty years after Bofors scandal, the Indian Army is looking to buy a new artillery gun. This was amongst the decisions taken at a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council attended by Defence Minister AK Antony and the three service chiefs on Friday (December 19).

To fill the gaps in India’s defences, the government has decided to develop a short range surface to air missile and this will give protection to airfields and warships. This is being developed with French collaboration.

The Army will also get a light howitzer, one that can be transported by helicopter to mountainous terrain like in Kashmir, and this will be bought from the United States of America (USA). The development of a tactical communication system has been sanctioned. This will allow the Army to be in touch with forward units during battle. Private players are being roped in for this project.

DDM or M777 is selected?

[Ramesh]

But rockets cannot replace guns. Only a sustained fire from multiple howitzers can clear entrenched enenmy in the mountains.

Aditya, I am no expert on artillery but your statement led me to this question...wouldn't a MBRL be more effective in neutralizing/clearing enemy presence over a area (even entrenched ones based on warhead used on rocket)....I believe Howitzers are used more than rockets due to the cost factor...firing a salvo of rockets though effective in terms of enemy casualties and objectives may not be all that cost-effective....please let me know your comments on this....

[Ramesh]

If this is true then it is very good news but I don't think that AK Antony has it in him to take "any" decision at all. IIRC M777 dropped out of the competition citing unrealistic specifications for ultra light guns. Bofors also failed tests of other versions of 155mm guns (as did all other guns)


quote="sunilUpa"]Indian Army to buy new artillery gun

Twenty years after Bofors scandal, the Indian Army is looking to buy a new artillery gun. This was amongst the decisions taken at a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council attended by Defence Minister AK Antony and the three service chiefs on Friday (December 19).

To fill the gaps in India’s defences, the government has decided to develop a short range surface to air missile and this will give protection to airfields and warships. This is being developed with French collaboration.

The Army will also get a light howitzer, one that can be transported by helicopter to mountainous terrain like in Kashmir, and this will be bought from the United States of America (USA). The development of a tactical communication system has been sanctioned. This will allow the Army to be in touch with forward units during battle. Private players are being roped in for this project.

DDM or M777 is selected?

[/quote]

[Ramesh]

Actually, the current messy state with Pkiland, could be an excellent opportunity for the MoD to place emergency orders for arty guns, even if it has to be Bofors...(though seriously, Congress wont have the guts to go for Bofors, however meritorious the gun might be and however compelling the situation might be)

[Ramesh]

India Wraps Smerch Tests

NEW DELHI - The Indian Army has received and begun inducting the 36 Russian-made Smerch Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) ordered in 2006 for $450 million.

The Army wrapped up flight stability, accuracy and consistency tests last month at India's missile testing range at Chandipur, in the eastern Indian state of Orissa, Army sources said.

Full report : http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=TOP

[Ramesh]

Vikram_S: Each Rocket Regiment = 3 Batteries @ 6 systems each.
Therefore, 36 units = 2 regiments.

[Ramesh]

rohit

why is the army buying 28 launchers in follow on order? (if 18 is one regiment)

is it going to be 3 regiment (+ 10 spare launcher)

[Ramesh]

Vikram_S: I have not followed the SMERCH induction thing. But as per BR page, the total order was for 62 units. Which makes for 3 regimets and 8 additional launchers. Only guess can be that some of the additional units will be for Trg role but this is more of a guess.

It is important to understand is that due to their massive firepower, the MRLS are generally alloted at battery level to formations (generaly divisions). Will try and dig up some info on the same.

[Ramesh]

tv was showing a testfire of smerch in Raj desert. scared the crap out of me - the rockets are big as a house. a group of 6 TELs unloading all their tubes will take out a small town.

[Ramesh]

tv was showing a testfire of smerch in Raj desert. scared the crap out of me - the rockets are big as a house. a group of 6 TELs unloading all their tubes will take out a small town.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=cqdajSyyXlk

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=2GRSL1Ya5-w

[Ramesh]

Can someone pls clarify Smerch in battery role will have 4 /6/8 launchers ?

[Ramesh]

see rohit post

1 regiment = 3 battery --> each battery has 6 launcher

[Ramesh]

X-posting from Indian Army thread

hardly. arty acquisition is in a mess. while the soltam conversion would give some much needed boost, the armoured formations desperately need SP arty. AFAIK, with the retirement of the abott, IA is w/o any SP tube artillery.
They need to decide on the SP and towed arty and quickly !!
(renuka choudhari stalled the bhim !)

rocket arty is at a better place but the numbers are too small IMHO.

What does a health/WCD minister have to do with guns?And why does she get to torpedo them?

What abt the M777 deal - that's gone too?
If we have something like IFG and LFG then why have we made a SP howitzer(however 'defected') on our own?We have Arjun/BMP II and the IFG gun-why no match made?

The chinkis and porkis are closing in...too close.

[Ramesh]

Check this out...

A 100 Bhims on order...Typo or just BBS...

products developed
BHIM - T6
A state-of-the-art 155mm Self Propelled gun named BHIM has been developed by CVRDE by integrating the T6 turret of M/S LIW, South Africa onto the Arjun derivative chassis system. After successful field trials, Army has recommended induction of this equipment into service. M/S BEML has been nominated as the nodal agency for the production of 100 nos. of BHIM. M/S BEML is to manufacture BHIM chassis and integrate with T6 turret.

the link.
http://www.drdo.com/labs/cvrde/achieve.html

[Ramesh]

quote="nikhil_p"Check this out...

A 100 Bhims on order...Typo or just BBS...

products developed
BHIM - T6
A state-of-the-art 155mm Self Propelled gun named BHIM has been developed by CVRDE by integrating the T6 turret of M/S LIW, South Africa onto the Arjun derivative chassis system. After successful field trials, Army has recommended induction of this equipment into service. M/S BEML has been nominated as the nodal agency for the production of 100 nos. of BHIM. M/S BEML is to manufacture BHIM chassis and integrate with T6 turret.

the link.
http://www.drdo.com/labs/cvrde/achieve.html

Or else that page hasn't been updated in 7-8 years.[/quote]

[Ramesh]

If we have something like IFG and LFG then why have we made a SP howitzer(however 'defected') on our own?We have Arjun/BMP II and the IFG gun-why no match made?

IFG and LFG are 105mm guns, while the Requirement for the SP howitzer seems to be for 155mm. The most logical step would be to license-produce a number of 155mm guns, some towed, some to match with an existing tank hull if the Requirements specify tracked SP... or go with a heavy carrier domestically produced in India (Volvo?) if the Requirements specify wheeled SP. It would be even more sensible, if feasible from other aspects, to continue with Bofors for simplicity of logistics.

[Ramesh]

Bids received for towed, light howitzers; trials in February

New Delhi, Jan 13 (IANS) In a development that would push the Indian Army’s decade-old modernization plan of its artillery, overseas vendors have submitted bids for 180 155mm/52 caliber towed and light howitzers and the trials are expected to commence in February or March, a senior official said Tuesday.The defence ministry had issued the request for proposals (RFPs) for three variants of the howitzers - light, wheeled and self-propelled - a year ago.

“The procurement process for the towed and light howitzer is proceeding as planned. Bids have been received from all the vendors and trials of the guns are planned in February or March,” the senior army official told IANS.

The bids for the 120 self-propelled howitzers are due in February. The entire deal is valued at $2 billion.

“The trials for self-propelled howitzers are planned in May-June,” the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The eventual contract is to include transfer of technology to build the howitzers in India.

The army is seeking to purchase some 400 pieces of the 155mm/52 calibre howitzer to ramp up depleting stocks of a similar number of guns it had bought from Swedish manufacturer Bofors in the mid-1980s.

“Of these, 140 will be light howitzers that will be spread over seven regiments. Because of advances in metallurgy, this version, as its name implies will be lighter while performing the same as the other two versions,” another officer explained.

The remaining guns will be of the towed and self-propelled variants.

The numbers and types mentioned in the report are confusing. How many light howitzers are being bought? 140-180 light, 120 self propelled, 'rest' towed?

[Ramesh]

No. of ultra light guns is 140. but no. of Towed & SP Guns are not exactly known.

trials of three towed guns (denel, bofors, soltam) began in 2001 and ended in 2006. So will Army again test these guns for 6 years?

[Ramesh]

In a development that would push the Indian Army’s decade-old modernization plan of its artillery, overseas vendors have submitted bids for 180 155mm/52 caliber towed and light howitzers and the trials are expected to commence in February or March, a senior official said Tuesday.

Expect to read this same sentence in 2013-14 when the current tests end with "no winner"...

This entire thing has been turned into a farce.

[Ramesh]

ndian Army to start artillery evaluation trials

This report has some useful details.

New Delhi: The Indian Army is all set to commence a test programme for artillery guns in various versions after receiving fresh bids from foreign companies. The eventual order for a variety of towed, self-propelled and ultra-light howitzers will be a massive Rs15,000 crore and is expected to complete the army's ambitious artillery modernisation plan.

The tenders are designed to plug in existing gaps in the services' mobile, long-range, high-volume firepower. The army is moving ahead with the intention of inducting the new guns from 2010-2011 onwards. With the submission of bids already over, the selection process is now expected to kick off in the coming days.

According to reports, field trials of 155mm/52-calibre towed guns are likely to commence first, sometime in February-March. The tender is expected to be worth Rs8,000-crore and may involve off-the-shelf purchase of 400 towed guns. Indigenous manufacture of another 1,100 howitzers may take place after transfer of technology.

The trials for the wheeled self-propelled howitzers are slated for the period of May-June. This tender is expected to involve 180 guns and may be worth around Rs4,700 crore.

The last component of the overall contract will involve the acquisition of 140 air-mobile, ultra-light howitzers for around Rs2,900 crore. These ultra-light guns will make it possible for the Army to deploy them in forward, inaccessible areas at short notice with the help of helicopters.


There is also a requirement for tracked self-propelled guns for which commercial and technical bids by foreign vendors are due in February.

Earlier attempts by the Army to get its artillery modernized were stymied mainly due to the infamous Bofors scandal of the 1980s. An unprecedented four rounds of trials for towed guns in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 came to naught in 2007. The army chief General Deepak Kapoor has confirmed that the army has not bought a single artillery gun since 1986 when Bofors (the kickbacks scandal) happened. He also said that the army had issued global tenders for all kinds of guns -- towed, ultra-light howitzers, tracked and wheeled self-propelled howitzers. "We are on track now,'' he was quoted as saying.

Bofors, the original Swedish company is now owned by BAE Systems. Its guns and systems are also in the fray along with those of Israeli firm Soltam.

Numbers - 400 towed guns to be bought off the shelf, 1100 to be manufactured, 180 wheeled self propelled, 140 light weight and tracked self propelled guns.

[Ramesh]

The last component of the overall contract will involve the acquisition of 140 air-mobile, ultra-light howitzers for around Rs2,900 crore. These ultra-light guns will make it possible for the Army to deploy them in forward, inaccessible areas at short notice with the help of helicopters.

Wasnt the ultra light howitzer finalised?
IIRC, a article mentioned a American co would supply the howitzer or something to that effect. Notice that no timelines attached to any of the "tests". Hence, the IA can keep waiting for this decade and half of next to tick over before they can even dream of seeing any new howitzer..

[Ramesh]

The arty procurement or lack of it for the last decade is another example of our failure in making strategic decisions early. Is the 2nd best gun better than the best gun that was purchased 20 years later?

[Ramesh]

Future Weapons: The M777 Howitzer

[Ramesh]

Future Weapons: The M777 Howitzer

Speaking of Future Weapons: The Bofors Archer (or BAe Archer maybe sounds better in Indian politicians ears)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4jnUXUzV2c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA1j7mJbgDU

Edit: (even if I don´t care much about that Discovery show)

[Ramesh]

By the look of the numbers of towed 155mm guns, we're on our way to completely eliminating the 105mm calibre in the IA,save for the Moutain Divisions. And even here, post the induction of light 155mm in the strike elements, the calibre may percolate to holding formations also. Pukes are for sure going to be staring at the wrong end of a very big barrel.

[Ramesh]

Regarding the induction of new artillery pieces, both self propelled and towed, have we made any headway in their induction. Because last what i heard is that agreement with Denel is bogged because of corruption case. Do you guys have any information on fresh induction of artillery pieces specially 155mm howitzers since last time it was acquired was 20years back from Bofors

[Ramesh]

155 mm M-46 upgrade at Know Your Army exhibition in Jalandhar:
http://flickr.com/photos/gopal1035/3196 ... ateposted/

compared to regular M-46:
http://flickr.com/photos/gopal1035/3198 ... ateposted/

[Ramesh]

The developers have announced the creation of a new rocket to increase up to 120km range and weighing up to 250kg of the head. The new shells have increased speed (up to M = 4.7 at an altitude of 40km) and dvuhrezhimnym equipped with a jet engine, providing a rapid acceleration of a shell in the initial phase. Длина нового снаряда - 7.2м. Поступление на вооружение нового образца планируется с 2012г. The length of the new projectile - 7.2m. Admission to adopt the new model is scheduled to 2012g.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... l=ru&tl=en

I know 40km where this 120 km come from i never heard we have devloped it

any news.

[Ramesh]

it's an ongoing project called pinaka-2 by some.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaka_Mul ... ture_Plans

[Ramesh]

Indian army tested three towed for as many as four years, from 2002 to 2006 only to restart them again in 2009. isn't four years a bit too long. Is there no sense of urgency or panic that there is not a single SP Artillery inservice?

when Pakistan inducted T-80, Indian army inducted T-90 quite immediately, now that Pakistan has loads of US SP Guns inservice why there is no reaction from IA.

IAF, IN, IA tank force with all their modernization problems are in much better situation than artillery force.

[Ramesh]

155 mm M-46 upgrade at Know Your Army exhibition in Jalandhar:
http://flickr.com/photos/gopal1035/3196 ... ateposted/

compared to regular M-46:
http://flickr.com/photos/gopal1035/3198 ... ateposted/

Looks like the upgraded M-46 has a new pneumatic ram behind the breech to help the loader with the larger and heavier shells and charge.

[Ramesh]

Indian army tested three towed for as many as four years, from 2002 to 2006 only to restart them again in 2009. isn't four years a bit too long. Is there no sense of urgency or panic that there is not a single SP Artillery inservice?

when Pakistan inducted T-80, Indian army inducted T-90 quite immediately, now that Pakistan has loads of US SP Guns inservice why there is no reaction from IA.

IAF, IN, IA tank force with all their modernization problems are in much better situation than artillery force.

Per news stories doing round nowadays out of the three services - only the Army said that they were not in a position to launch an offensive on Pakistan - the ostensible reason being lack of artillery. If this does not cause panic then the only thing left is actual defeat in war.

[Ramesh]

Govt said it was single vendor situation when Bofors was the best towed gun in last series of trials.
what is this single vendor situation BTW?,

where were multiple vendors when Army was purchasing T-90s, Smerch MLRS. why no bidding, no short listing was done for them.

And with SP guns. Govt blacklisted denel in 2005. So the other choice was obviously Bofors. why did we have to send RFPs them again. Now its 2009 and the bids for SP guns are not even received yet.

this is the third time Indian Army has sent RFPs on SP Guns. i read in janes some time back that in 1995, there was competition for SPs Guns based on T-72. they spent 6 years only to cancel the whole competition and start SP & Towed Gun competition again.

after looking at all this, may be Amriki and Ruski style of govt to govt deals are far better than commercial competitions.

[Ramesh]

Kongress won't buy Bofors guns because it's leadership was accused of accepting bribes from Bofors. BJP govt can't buy Bofors because it accused Kongress of taking bribe from Bofors. IA would not buy anything else but Boforse because it is the only gun that meets its requirements.

Net result no new artillery for army!!

[Ramesh]

And if they buy any other gun they will be accused of scam. And DRDO cant make guns. The last one they made was the 105mm which weighed a tonne or two so its good for forts or buruzs.
Still same conclusion as above.