Artillery Discussion Thread

[Ramesh]

Kongress won't buy Bofors guns because it's leadership was accused of accepting bribes from Bofors. BJP govt can't buy Bofors because it accused Kongress of taking bribe from Bofors. IA would not buy anything else but Boforse because it is the only gun that meets its requirements.

Net result no new artillery for army!!

Why cant they call it BAe systems guns onlee and buy it ? Also, would someone please take bribes from Israeli middlemen and buy denel's guns ?

[Ramesh]

Do we have Denel D6, I remember India wanted to buy some 200 of D6 D5s. Didn't heard anything about it.

[Ramesh]

Kuma_I

No more Heavy Guns for India. Out of 410 that were initially purchased IIRC only half are in working conditions. Remember, every rupee spent on buying heavy gun, 5 Rs have to be spent on bribes, another 5Rs for RFC, RFP, Delay For Ever, ReInvent the Wheel, another 2Rs to pacify the Islamic Ummah, another 10paise for training of soldiers, 5paise for maintenance, Rs 150 for every screw that has to be imported (including custom duty, Truckers Union, Bharat Mazdoor Sangh etc), another Rs20000 for ammunition because there is not a single entity in this nation that can manufacture ammo for this gun.
See it is so costly and prohibitively expensive, it gives sleepless nights to our DeshBhakt Netas.

[Ramesh]

And if they buy any other gun they will be accused of scam. And DRDO cant make guns. The last one they made was the 105mm which weighed a tonne or two so its good for forts or buruzs.
Still same conclusion as above.

actually they had made a very simple design 155mm gun in early 90's which was well liked by IA.
unfortunately at around the same time arjun's suspension gave lots of trouble and reliability of DRDO's designs came under the scanner.

of course, it was mulayam singh at the helm who had already decided semi-officially "there would be no acquisitions during my tenure (the military can go to hell, I've my own skin to look after)"

kumar, denel was blacklisted long back by UPA with the active support of renuka chowdhury and some unnamed IA officers. please look it up on google.

p.s. one of the best overviews on the arjun project is at frontierindia website.
this could be the link. http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arj ... velopment/

[Ramesh]

Kongress won't buy Bofors guns because it's leadership was accused of accepting bribes from Bofors. BJP govt can't buy Bofors because it accused Kongress of taking bribe from Bofors. IA would not buy anything else but Boforse because it is the only gun that meets its requirements.

Net result no new artillery for army!!

why don't they simply "not take" bribes for once and clear the purchases quickly citing national security reasons. if they were fair, then CBI can do nothing about it.

if govts fear buying from tainted companies, then what about Barak Scam? we never stopped purchasing israeli weapons because of that.

[Ramesh]

actually they had made a very simple design 155mm gun in early 90's which was well liked by IA.
unfortunately at around the same time arjun's suspension gave lots of trouble and reliability of DRDO's designs came under the scanner.

This is a crazy thought, but if such a program existed, could it be the case that such lengthy trials are actually to 'reverse engineer' certain technologies and/or run comparisons with an Indian 155mm gun? By reverse engineer I don't mean in the literal sense but sending in scientists/engineers in guise to check on the mechanisms and learn how to improve the guns by emulating certain aspects. Please enlighten!

[Ramesh]

quote="Rahul M"
actually they had made a very simple design 155mm gun in early 90's which was well liked by IA.
unfortunately at around the same time arjun's suspension gave lots of trouble and reliability of DRDO's designs came under the scanner.

This is a crazy thought, but if such a program existed, could it be the case that such lengthy trials are actually to 'reverse engineer' certain technologies and/or run comparisons with an Indian 155mm gun? By reverse engineer I don't mean in the literal sense but sending in scientists/engineers in guise to check on the mechanisms and learn how to improve the guns by emulating certain aspects. Please enlighten!

20+ years should be enough to develop ones own gun. DRDO was asked to develop a Tank, nuclear submarine, fighter aircraft what not. but artillery (especially the 155mm), the most important & vital piece of weapon for Army was missing. just look at the Kargil and the decisive role played by Bofors. Besides DRDO developed Arjuns Gun, how difficult would it be for them to come out with a 155mm gun.
our requirement is so large that both indigenous and phoreign made ones can be inducted simultaneously. To become full fledged defence industry, some or the other time, Artillery must be developed indigenously.[/quote]

[Ramesh]

Great article I read today

How can Army win wars with outdated artillery
Manoj Joshi
January 23, 2009
Comment Print Email A A A Share

Bofors guns in a row, belching fire at Tiger Hill remain one of the iconic pictures of the 1999 Kargil War. Yet it was not known at the time that India had to fly in ammunition from South Africa.

"Had the conflict not been confined to the 150- km front of the Kargil sector," says Brig (Retd) Gurmeet Kanwal, director of the New Delhi- based Centre for Land Warfare Studies, "T- 72 and 130 mm medium gun ammunition would have also run short. That would have been embarrassing for the government as well as the Army." Everyone knows that the superb Bofors guns became a victim of the controversy over commissions paid for their acquisition.

But it is the country that has paid the real price. The 400 guns acquired were to have been followed by another 1,000 to be made indigenously.

That did not happen and the original guns diminished through wear, tear and cannibalisation for parts.

They nonetheless remain the mainstay of the Army’s artillery units.

It has taken the government nearly two decades since the Bofors scandal peaked to issue request for proposals for 155 mm guns and howitzers for the mountains and plains, and self- propelled guns for the desert.

If the Army is lucky, four guns shortlisted will go for trials and a final selection made that could join the Army by 2012 or so.

Till then, the Army will have to depend on its long- obsolete indigenously designed and manufactured 105 mm Indian Field Gun (IFG) and the Light Field Gun (LFG), the 75/24 Indian Mountain Gun, the 100 mm Russian field gun and the 122 mm Russian howitzer.

There is some relief that we have managed to upgrade some 180 pieces of the fabled 130 mm M46 Russian medium guns with the help of the Israelis.

Some more relief comes from the acquisition of two regiments of the 12-tube, 300 mm Smerch multi- barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) system with 90 km range. Had they been available then, they would have provided India the ability to hit at Pakistani artillery positions in Kargil.

All this pain and expense had to be borne because of the DRDO- designed Pinaka system, which is in any case inferior to the Russian product.

The one area in which India has been traditionally weak is that of selfpropelled artillery.

These are the heavy guns mounted on a tracked chassis which are integral to any offensive armoured force.

The US supplied Pakistan the first 155 mm artillery in the 1960s, and even today it has an edge over India in having something like 250 SP guns, which include some super- heavy 203 mm.

India, on the other hand has just 100 130mm Catapult guns which is a juryrigged system of a Russian 130mm gun mounted on a Vijayanta chassis.

Artillery officers complain the gun is too heavy for its chassis, which tends to break down regularly.

The plan to acquire a 155 mm SP gun using a South African turret was scuttled some years ago because its supplier, Denel, was involved in a bribery scandal relating to another Army unarmed? acquisition.

The lack of a relatively light mountain gun or a self- propelled gun affect any offensive war plan the Army may like to formulate.

Movement in the mountains is extremely difficult and getting guns to negotiate the hair- pin bends of the roads is a major task.

So, some of the guns have to be light enough to be lifted by helicopters. As for SP guns, without them, any armoured thrust lacks the firepower it needs to punch through enemy defences.

There is one other area where the Indian Army has been weaker than Pakistan. This is the area of artillery and mortar tracking using battlefield tracking radars.

Islamabad has fielded a French Rasit system since the early 1980s along with the US- supplied AN/ TPQ36, which were used in the Kargil war for tracking Indian mortar and artillery fire.

By contrast, India sought to develop one of its own and actually rejected a US offer for an AN/ TPQ37, a more advanced version of the radar Islamabad had.

This was done at the request of the DRDO, which said it was developing the system. By the time New Delhi realised its mistake, it had come under US sanctions in the wake of the nuclear tests of 1998.

Since then, the US has sold us six of the radars which form the core of the counter- battery systems. According to Kanwal, at least 30 to 40 such radars are required for effective counter- bombardment, especially in the plains.

Only a few have been procured so far.

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... 9&Itemid=1

[Ramesh]

All this pain and expense had to be borne because of the DRDO- designed Pinaka system, which is in any case inferior to the Russian product.

This gentleman can't stop licking drdo wherever he lay his eggs. Oh..any case inferior to Russian product? which product? Such is the knowledge ...He should have asked then why Army is ordering more & more of that system.

Islamabad has fielded a French Rasit system since the early 1980s along with the US- supplied AN/ TPQ36, which were used in the Kargil war for tracking Indian mortar and artillery fire.

By contrast, India sought to develop one of its own and actually rejected a US offer for an AN/ TPQ37, a more advanced version of the radar Islamabad had.

This was done at the request of the DRDO, which said it was developing the system. By the time New Delhi realised its mistake, it had come under US sanctions in the wake of the nuclear tests of 1998.

Since then, the US has sold us six of the radars which form the core of the counter- battery systems. According to Kanwal, at least 30 to 40 such radars are required for effective counter- bombardment, especially in the plains.

Only a few have been procured so far.

Nothing good words on the superior nature of our home-grown WLR. Tone of this article says it all. Negative picturisation. One more lifafa.

[Ramesh]

quote="Kanson" quote All this pain and expense had to be borne because of the DRDO- designed Pinaka system, which is in any case inferior to the Russian product.

This gentleman can't stop licking drdo wherever he lay his eggs. Oh..any case inferior to Russian product? which product? Such is the knowledge ...He should have asked then why Army is ordering more & more of that system.

Islamabad has fielded a French Rasit system since the early 1980s along with the US- supplied AN/ TPQ36, which were used in the Kargil war for tracking Indian mortar and artillery fire.

By contrast, India sought to develop one of its own and actually rejected a US offer for an AN/ TPQ37, a more advanced version of the radar Islamabad had.

This was done at the request of the DRDO, which said it was developing the system. By the time New Delhi realised its mistake, it had come under US sanctions in the wake of the nuclear tests of 1998.

Since then, the US has sold us six of the radars which form the core of the counter- battery systems. According to Kanwal, at least 30 to 40 such radars are required for effective counter- bombardment, especially in the plains.

Only a few have been procured so far.

Nothing good words on the superior nature of our home-grown WLR. Tone of this article says it all. Negative picturisation. One more lifafa.[/quote]

Either the author has no idea about the WLR, or he is doing it with mala fide intentions - both of which are criminal.

He also seems to forget that the rest of the 30-40 WLRs will come from the order of 28 WLRs placed.

I think the WLR must have cleared its last trials in December. Look forward to more news.[/quote]

[Ramesh]

Yusuf
I agree, Arjun is as dead as it can be. The best thing for using Arjun will be to mount a 155mm gun with modifications to Arjun Chassis. It may be asking for too much.

[Ramesh]

The best thing for using Arjun will be to mount a 155mm gun with modifications to Arjun Chassis. It may be asking for too much.

IIRC, we tried even that with the Bhim but the Kangress/Renuka Choudary nixed it. Guess, some people( tanks) are just born unlucky.

[Ramesh]

It looks like the locally made T-90 variants are also going to have a version of the Kanchan Armor. Also, I read some months back that the Russkies didnt do the ToT for the main gun, which also had to be developed locally. If we go ahead and reverse engineer the Kaktus ERA, we can emulate the Chinese and call the T-90 indigenous China does for the A-100( Smerch copy) T-59 etc.

Regarding the M-46 upgrades, are we using the Soltam one or the OFB one or both ?

Rather than go for what the glossiest brochures say, it may make sense to produce a large number of OFB M-46 155mm upgrades to fulfill towed artillery requirements. What is the difficulty in doing this ?

[Ramesh]

soltam one.

[Ramesh]

Is the OFB upgrade notup to the mark ?

[Ramesh]

there was a competition long back, there was even a third competitor at some stage IIRC.
soltam was chosen in the end, they probably had some prior experience in such things.

[Ramesh]

Rather than go for what the glossiest brochures say, it may make sense to produce a large number of OFB M-46 155mm upgrades to fulfill towed artillery requirements. What is the difficulty in doing this ?

1. The number of M-46 available is less.

2. There are certain other issues like:
(a) Rate of fire- Low. We need max rate of fire posssible.
(b) Time required to deploy.
(c) some degree is self propulsion is essential these days with the adversary fielding weapon locating radars.
(d) M-46 cannot fire in high angle which is essential in the mountains.

The up gunning of M-46 is a stop gap arrangement till we develop the political will to purchase new gun systems or better still private companies step in to produce them. Even the bofors company started to develop artillery gun in the 1970s because of a swedish govt initiative to develop the replacement for its french gun and the US offered gun had higher running cost. Now, it is a world leader in the field.

[Ramesh]

can anyone give the list of possible contenders in 155 mm competition and qualities detail of them?

[Ramesh]

can anyone give the list of possible contenders in 155 mm competition and qualities detail of them?

Why is that every trainee that joins, wants other members to work for them. Anand, do your own research, enlighten us all.

[Ramesh]

anand, I second baljeet.
please search up a bit in the older pages of this thread.
googling is highly encouraged, spoon feeding is not !
regards.

added later : and kindly do not highlight all your post with boldface/big fonts etc.

[Ramesh]

One other thing - India has a lot of M-46 pieces around. There were some very substantial purchases of M-46 guns in the early to mid-1990s with some suggesting that up to 1300 were procured.

[Ramesh]

Wiki lists no more than 550 pieces.

[Ramesh]

This time Wiki is dead wrong. 550 were inducted in the initial procurement period. When no more 155s were coming the IA moved to standardize on the 130 in the interim and substantial second hand purchases were made. The whole process was documented in JDW in the early 1990s and the Asian Age.

[Ramesh]

Sanjay - yessir you're right!

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010928/main5.htm

The upgradation of the 1800-odd 130 mm guns to the level of Bofors guns will enhance manifold the firepower of the Artillery, which along with the Infantry Regiment was instrumental in evicting Pakistani regular soldiers who had occupied high-altitude mountain peaks and ridgelines in Kargil.

[Ramesh]

Do they have the ammo for such a large upgrade? Also why does one need same standard for mtns and the palins? The aux power is needed to negotiate hairpin bends in the mtns. The Bofors type can be used for mtns exclusively and the upgraded M-46s elsewhere.

[Ramesh]

There are certain advantages of 155mm over 130mm M-46 like the tnt content and the variety of ammunition that can be fired. Aux power is required to shoot and scoot esp with weapon locating radars appearing in the neigbourhood.
Rate of fire with upgraded M-46 is less and there are certain other issues which i can not say here.

[Ramesh]

quote="Anabhaya"]Sanjay - yessir you're right!

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010928/main5.htm

The upgradation of the 1800-odd 130 mm guns to the level of Bofors guns will enhance manifold the firepower of the Artillery, which along with the Infantry Regiment was instrumental in evicting Pakistani regular soldiers who had occupied high-altitude mountain peaks and ridgelines in Kargil.

Whoa, so we will have approx 2200 155 mm guns(1800 + 400 odd bofors) with us which is not a ad number ( issues with upgraded 130mms notwithstanding). Ceratinly, a far cry from the "400 155-mm guns left with the IA" of the DDM...

If only we had even completed our bofors contract of 1100 locally produced versions along with the 400 off-the-shelf guns in 1986, we would be n a very strong position even today despite no new guns coming through.[/quote]

[Ramesh]

sum, not all m-46's have been converted to 155mm. that number is still very low AFAIK.
and not all will be converted.
so, DDM is correct in this instant.
also isn't IA's holding of m-46 is ~ 1300 and not 1800 ?

nitinrastogi, plz that report is from plagarist and professional liar prasun sengupta who likes to mix every bit of fact with 5 portions of falsehood.
kindly don't bring his garbage on BRF.

namit k, you know absolutely nothing about the arjun project, so kindly read up or shut up unless you want to be out of BR.

[Ramesh]

sum, not all m-46's have been converted to 155mm. that number is still very low AFAIK.
and not all will be converted.
so, DDM is correct in this instant.
also isn't IA's holding of m-46 is ~ 1300 and not 1800 ?

nitinrastogi, plz that report is from plagarist and professional liar prasun sengupta who likes to mix every bit of fact with 5 portions of falsehood.
kindly don't bring his garbage on BRF.

namit k, you know absolutely nothing about the arjun project, so kindly read up or shut up unless you want to be out of BR.

yes i know less about arjun,but i dont hate something
i was reffering to an earlier news in which denel(SA) offered to fit its guns in arjun,

[Ramesh]

RahulM, the army may have actually purchased over 1300 more M-46 after the initial 550 - 1800 may not be so far off including reserve stocks. Estimate 60+ 130mm M-46 regiments exist at present plus 20 or so upgunned to 155 (about 180-200). There is an option to upgrade an additional 20 regiments under the Soltam deal but I don't know if it has been done.

What I would like to know is how many have been upgunned and if the Soltam option has been taken.

The option to covert the entire stock is there but take into account some of those guns have seen a lot of use and overhauling their mechanisms plus upgunning them may be a bit expensive. Ramana, the ammunition production capacity is there to meet demands but whether it is utilized is another story. Also stocks and production capacity of 130mm ammunition of all types are vast in India.

[Ramesh]

namit, you are late by about 5 years in your information and of course if you take DDM to be the ultimate guide please stick with it.
don't bother us with that drivel.

what exactly is the point of your posts, may I know ?

sanjay, you are right there exists some confusion about the m-46 numbers and personally I'm not sure of actual holdings.
can't find the links now but the numbers upgraded until now is around 100 IIRC with options for another 500 or so.

ah, here is one link

In 2000 Soltam Systems Ltd. won a $47.5 million contract to upgrade 180 artillery pieces of the Indian Army following a tender process which lasted six years and involved competition from French, Swedish, Czech an South African companies.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... l/m46s.htm

AFAIK, the options for further upgrades haven't been exercised yet.

[Ramesh]

RahulM, I think you are correct about the option not being exercised. However, we don't know for sure. I mean who knew that we switched over from the AM-50s to a new Soltam 120mm mortar until some article or the other appeared after an OFB design was rejected.

The stocks of M-46 are very large at one time over 200 per year were being obtained to convert 105mm IFG regiments.

Open question- how many BRDM-2 (not the striker version) and Ferrets did India obtain ?

[Ramesh]

Regiment Nomenclature is very dangerous. There were SP units using M-46 towed weapons. The 105mm regiments converted I believe retained their nomenclature as field units. The light regiments 120mm were removed from Indian ORBATs at one time - regiments were re-designated batteries and attached on an ad hoc basis. There is 1 heavy regiment (60 Heavy) in the army - used to use 7.2inch howitzers. If I am not mistaken this regiment converted to the Prithvi missile (the basis of 333 missile group).

[Ramesh]

Regiment Nomenclature is very dangerous. There were SP units using M-46 towed weapons. The 105mm regiments converted I believe retained their nomenclature as field units. The light regiments 120mm were removed from Indian ORBATs at one time - regiments were re-designated batteries and attached on an ad hoc basis. There is 1 heavy regiment (60 Heavy) in the army - used to use 7.2inch howitzers. If I am not mistaken this regiment converted to the Prithvi missile (the basis of 333 missile group).

Sanjay, thank you for the reply. SP units equipped with M-46 could be because of the phasing out the Abbot SP system. IIRC, the Medium Regiments in the Mechanized formations have the bulk of Bofors. Is the status of Light Regiment same as you quote or was it part of downsizing of the IA in early 90s and may be they are back to usual strength?
Thanx

[Ramesh]

I have never been able to figure out anything regarding those light regiments. Apparently the BSF has hundreds of 120mm mortars just lying around and God knows how the army deploys them now. I wish I could answer the questions you ask - but I want to know the answers too.

[Ramesh]

A query?

A question for tech experts here:
How difficult is it to develop terminally guided artillery shells like krasnopol http://www.kbptula.ru/eng/kuw/krasn.htm locally?

Is is technically feasible and financially viable to put a ring laser gyro in this kind of system?

Also since the import of artillery is a long way off what is the ammo picture for those Bofors and upgunned M-46s?

After POKII there were reports of difficulties of setting up the factory for the ammo. Is it resolved now. Or is it on trial basis?

[Ramesh]

One big problem with those type of guns is the metallurgy of the barrels- metal alloys and heat treatment. Its one thing to make a few pieces and another to make a lot to equip armies. All that needs world class metallurgy facilities on production scale.

The Army should get of its high horse and make sure that production facilities are built for such materials or tey will end up with 25 pounders only. From the never endging saga they end up in a Vedantic way of neti, neti(Not this! Not this!) and end up with nothing (Sunya)!

[Ramesh]

I have never been able to figure out anything regarding those light regiments. Apparently the BSF has hundreds of 120mm mortars just lying around and God knows how the army deploys them now. I wish I could answer the questions you ask - but I want to know the answers too.

What exactly you want to know about Light Regiments?

I am not too sure how many are left, but since the Infantry Mortars are not far out in range the manpower is being (or to be used) for longer range artillery for optimal efficiency and overall manpower planning.

Or so I believe.

But as an infantryman, I sure think they have their value.

[Ramesh]

Ray C sir

what is the composition of typical indian arty brigade

like how many guns
and do all brigades have MBRL attached ?

[Ramesh]

Ray Sahib, thanks for the offer. The Light Regiments - as artillery regiments - has 12 120mm mortars apiece didn't they and at one time there were about 40 of them.

Subseqently - in the 1990s - they were sort of removed from the ORBAT of the infantry divisions artillery brigades. There was some suggestion that the said weapons could be assigned to infantry battalions on an ad hoc basis. Right now the OFB has developed an improved 81mm mortar with a max range of 7300m and a new long range 120mm with an HE bomb range of 10km but the latter was rejected in favour of a Soltam design with a range of 9km. While the 120mm mortar is way too large for any mountain infantry units, and may well remain an artillery weapon, is there any possibility of the weapons being assigned to augment the firepower of the infantry battalions in the plains ?

Your point about the manpower and logistics aspects are part of the reason for the quandry over the light regiments. I was told once that they had been converted into light batteries - one wonders if those were merged into regmients of 18 or something.

The value of a 120mm mortar is undeniable. The question is whether the infantry or the artillery should use it.