Artillery Discussion Thread

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 20 Jun 2009 14:41

Ashu wrote:
Modernisation plan of artillery:
http://landwarfareindia.org/index.php?a ... ls&m_id=70

This site is pawned by IFramer worm
HEUR:Trojan.Script.Iframer

I have reported the admins lets c what they are upto.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 21 Jun 2009 23:10

Times Now reporting that a deal for purchase of Truck Mounted Guns has been approved

Take it for FWIW.

The report also mentions the AGNI V as having the capability to hit multiple targets. The China factor is being proclaimed aloud as being the reason for the need of newer systems.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 21 Jun 2009 23:17

^^^What a confused report, Agni V, Truck mounted Howitzer all in one kichdi

.

The photograph shown appears to be that of Caesar.

added later..

It is Caesar and is stock image from Military today.com

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 21 Jun 2009 23:45

^^ Confused it may be, but that didn't stop the channel from reporting it as a breaking news.
Something just might be in the offing, or it might be another instance of DDMitis. Maybe things will be clearer in a day or two.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 21 Jun 2009 23:47

Two things there.. The reporter says the new gun will have capability to hit several targets all at the same time.. I'm not sure the caesar can do this as it's semi-automatic and not fully automatic. And wasn't there supposed to be field trials before any decision.. I don't think any wheeled gun has even been over for tests at all?

Maybe it was a general report about getting new guns...

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 21 Jun 2009 23:53

That was the Agni

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 21 Jun 2009 23:54

dorai wrote:Two things there.. The reporter says the new gun will have capability to hit several targets all at the same time.. I'm not sure the caesar can do this as it's semi-automatic and not fully automatic. And wasn't there supposed to be field trials before any decision.. I don't think any wheeled gun has even been over for tests at all?

Maybe it was a general report about getting new guns...

You heard it wrong and I don't blame you, it was a poor piece of reporting and video editing. They mixed the Agni V and the Bofors in the same news item. Agni V has the ability of multiple target attack.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 22 Jun 2009 00:04

AmitR wrote:
You heard it wrong and I don't blame you, it was a poor piece of reporting and video editing. They mixed the Agni V and the Bofors in the same news item. Agni V has the ability of multiple target attack.

Ah wow thanks for that clarification. Heh.

Sharma · Post by **Sharma** » 22 Jun 2009 20:22

Apna Desi maal bhee dekh lo bhai log

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 23 Jun 2009 14:32

Indian, Russian rockets test-fired successfully

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... kuKw=&SEO=

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 23 Jun 2009 18:14

SanjibGhosh wrote:Indian, Russian rockets test-fired successfully

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... kuKw=&SEO=

After reading this poor quality report I was left confused as to what was tested and why it was tested?
How can Pinaka neutralize 350 sq km unless it has some nuke tipped rockets?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Jun 2009 18:25

he is the same guy who claimed that the last Agni test from stock weapons didnt meet expectations.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 23 Jun 2009 18:30

Sanku wrote: he is the same guy who claimed that the last Agni test from stock weapons didnt meet expectations.

well that's a relief for me , good to know that the man who reported on Agni test failure is a bit of clown when it comes to defense reporting

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 23 Jun 2009 20:05

or they tested another version of Pinaka which can fit in the SMERCH launcher. The report says about the rocket having 214MM and the launcher being 300MM.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jun 2009 20:53

SanjibGhosh wrote:Indian, Russian rockets test-fired successfully

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... kuKw=&SEO=

What type of warhead does the Pinka carry? I know he writes 1.2 tonne but is is unitray(single) or many bomblets?

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 24 Jun 2009 04:55

Probe stalls upgrade, Army to get new guns

The Indian Army is set to order new artillery guns worth approximately Rs 1,000 crore as plans to upgrade existing guns have been stalled after a probe was initiated against the Israeli firm Soltam which had been awarded the contract.

The Army has issued a Request for Information, which will be followed by formal global tenders, to acquire new 155 mm/42 calibre towed guns to fill vital gaps in its artillery arsenal. The Army is planning to acquire close to 400 guns at the earliest.
err it should be 45 cal, and if Army had already floated a RFP for 52 cal, why issue one for 45 cal?
A contract for upgrading the older generation M46 guns to modern 155 mm/45 calibre standards had been signed with Soltam earlier. Soltam is partially owned by arms agent Sudhir Choudhary, wanted by the CBI in several arms procurement cases.

While Soltam has already upgraded 180 Russian M46 guns, further orders have been stalled, forcing the Army to place orders for new guns.

The Army’s artillery modernisation programme, which is years behind schedule with scandals hitting most defence vendors like Bofors, Denel and lately Singapore Technologies, envisages a force of more than 500 of the 155mm/45 cal towed guns. While the Army has not received even a single new gun in the past two decades since the Bofors scandal, there is a line of thought that the stringent requirements laid out for new guns has come in the way of purchases.

As a result, all tenders floated by the Army in recent years to acquire new guns have come to a naught.

My head is spinning..I think all numbers are mixed up!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 Jun 2009 10:46

Even army men heads must be spinning, wondering what they will be getting

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 24 Jun 2009 19:13

sunilUpa wrote:Probe stalls upgrade, Army to get new guns

My head is spinning..I think all numbers are mixed up!

[/quote]

bs procurement process

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 24 Jun 2009 19:35

One other thing - the Soltam upgrade was not a success. One gun suffered a major barrel burst resulting in fatalities - that's why the option was not taken up for 220 more guns. This is where the OFB Metamorphosis should have stepped in.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 24 Jun 2009 20:25

As if we didn't have enough confusion,

Singaporean light howitzers enter India despite ban

New Delhi, June 24 (IANS) India recently received a consignment of 155 mm light howitzers from Singapore Technologies (ST) Kinetics despite a temporary ban on procurements from the company and six others on corruption charges, a leading defence journal says.
The 35 cartons of “cargo” that landed in Mumbai on May 29 were booked from Singapore by air charter service Chapman Freeborn, which confirmed the shipment, Aviation Week said.

The air charter service is believed to have hired a Hercules C-130 from a Quebec charter company with ground handlers Freedom Air, which obtained permission from the Indian defence ministry and the Director General of Civil Aviation for the consignment, which was cleared by May 31.

“It is not clear if the guns were sent for trials. However, if there was a ban on the company, one cannot fathom how the defense ministry allowed them in,” the magazine quoted a defence analyst here as saying.

“This puts a cloak on the transparency talk of the government,” he added.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 24 Jun 2009 20:30

sunilUpa wrote:Probe stalls upgrade, Army to get new guns

The Indian Army is set to order new artillery guns worth approximately Rs 1,000 crore as plans to upgrade existing guns have been stalled after a probe was initiated against the Israeli firm Soltam which had been awarded the contract.

The Army has issued a Request for Information, which will be followed by formal global tenders, to acquire new 155 mm/42 calibre towed guns to fill vital gaps in its artillery arsenal. The Army is planning to acquire close to 400 guns at the earliest.
err it should be 45 cal, and if Army had already floated a RFP for 52 cal, why issue one for 45 cal?
A contract for upgrading the older generation M46 guns to modern 155 mm/45 calibre standards had been signed with Soltam earlier. Soltam is partially owned by arms agent Sudhir Choudhary, wanted by the CBI in several arms procurement cases.

While Soltam has already upgraded 180 Russian M46 guns, further orders have been stalled, forcing the Army to place orders for new guns.

The Army’s artillery modernisation programme, which is years behind schedule with scandals hitting most defence vendors like Bofors, Denel and lately Singapore Technologies, envisages a force of more than 500 of the 155mm/45 cal towed guns. While the Army has not received even a single new gun in the past two decades since the Bofors scandal, there is a line of thought that the stringent requirements laid out for new guns has come in the way of purchases.

As a result, all tenders floated by the Army in recent years to acquire new guns have come to a naught.
My head is spinning..I think all numbers are mixed up!

In total How many guns were supposed to be upgraded by SOLTAM? I understand 180 gunds have so far beeen upgraded by soltam.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 24 Jun 2009 20:32

sunilUpa wrote:As if we didn't have enough confusion,

Singaporean light howitzers enter India despite ban

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 24 Jun 2009 21:14

sunilUpa wrote:As if we didn't have enough confusion,

Singaporean light howitzers enter India despite ban

GOI wont stop until they them self get blacklisted by all howitzers manufacturers worldwide

. they have blacklisted almost all howitzers manufacturers. wonder who will be the next victim

My only concern is with our under equipped troops who have to fight enemy in this condition

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jun 2009 22:10

These are Chankian moves by GoI to force IA to work with DRDO and get DRDO to make guns. Lets title this "Revenge of the Arjun"

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jun 2009 22:40

Nirmal, the idea is standardize on the 155mm gun. So all the 130mm guns were to be converted.

I think the 45 cal is chosen to be optimal for the conversion of the 130mm gun's carriage. Correct me if I am wrong, the 45 cal 155mm design is the Gerald Bull design. 52 cal design came later as a further improvement.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 24 Jun 2009 23:44

****Paanwala alert****
Overheard a paanwala from A'Nagar speaking about a big gun truck being tested at the range. Said that the Nalli (barrel) was longer than the T's they are used to seeing. And the dabba (read turret) around the Nalli is big.

****End alert****

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 25 Jun 2009 00:24

Panwaala also said that the cloud caused by bum was like a chatri (umbrella) - infact biggest chatri he has ever seen. soon after test fire, he saw a mendak (frog) with five eyes.

Translation - Atmospheric testing of nuclear artillery shells

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 25 Jun 2009 00:47

HariC wrote:Panwaala also said that the cloud caused by bum was like a chatri (umbrella) - infact biggest chatri he has ever seen. soon after test fire, he saw a mendak (frog) with five eyes.

Translation - Atmospheric testing of nuclear artillery shells

ROTFLMAO!

Hilarious...Hari Saar...true BRFite!

BTW i think he was referring to 105mm truck mounts...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Jun 2009 01:01

This arty saga will make me take up drinking!!!

But as my friend says " why do you worry - the Chief is a gunner - if he cannot solve it or does not care about it then what can you do?? "

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Jun 2009 01:22

^ Saar you don't drink ..otherwise ?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Jun 2009 01:53

negi - sadly no

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 25 Jun 2009 01:59

^OT

Surya saheb, 'Taking up drinking' is vastly different from 'Drinking' (A point I have very successfully made with SHQ

, so must be true).

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 25 Jun 2009 14:05

BTW for the context of the Singaporean gun article one has to understand the quote
"procurement from the black-listed countries, till completion of probe"
note procurement is blocked, not testing. If the probe proves Singapore tech not guilty, they can be suppliers of the gun.

Sharma · Post by **Sharma** » 25 Jun 2009 14:20

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... ,%20Orissa

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Jun 2009 16:02

Nihat wrote:
Sanku wrote: he is the same guy who claimed that the last Agni test from stock weapons didnt meet expectations.
well that's a relief for me , good to know that the man who reported on Agni test failure is a bit of clown when it comes to defense reporting

Ok I just caught up with the missile thread and it seems some people (like me) owe Mr Rout a bit of apology after all (please go to that thread for details), not that such basic goof ups do any credit to his reputation.

mody · Post by **mody** » 26 Jun 2009 15:54

Wasn't the M-46 arty upgrade being carried out by Ordance factory? There were reports a few years back that the Soltam upgrade wasn't a total success and that atleast one barrel had burst during trials. Right after that there were reports that the Ordance Factory Board had come up with its own upgrade for the M-46. This also involved upgrading the M-46 to 155mm/45 cal. The upgraded gun was also showcased and perhaps test fired at some defence exhibition in the middle east, maybe Abu Dhabi or Oman...will have to search and find some references.

Any news as to what happened with that upgrade or was it just killed in order to give orders to isreali friends? Or was it that the OFB was claiming something which it could not deliver?

As many have mentioned, perhaps all the howitzer makers in the world will blacklist GOI and IA and only then will our upgrade and acquisition program move forward.

By the way, since DRDO has already designed the Gandiv gun for Arjun and we are manufacturing 105 mm guns, how difficult is it to design and develop a 155 mm howitzer? Surely a howtizer is a less complex system as compared to a MBT and much less complex as compared to Combat aircrafts and missiles.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 27 Jun 2009 03:27

The bizarre saga of India artillery acquisition takes yet another turn..

Controversy Snarls Indian Howitzer Buy

India's urgent requirement for 155mm ultra-light howitzers has become jammed in controversy, forcing the Indian army's artillery modernization plans to be put on hold until it is decided whether or when the request for proposals (RFP) will be reissued.

The ministry of defense and Indian army offered no comment.

Aerospace DAILY reported that India recently received a consignment of 155mm light howitzers from Singapore Technologies (ST) Kinetics, despite a temporary ban on procurements from ST and six other companies (Aerospace DAILY, June 23). The ban followed the arrest of four people for allegedly "fixing" several defense deals, and will last until the investigation is over.

The defense ministry did not inform ST Kinetics of the postponement of the trials for the guns until June 5, around four days after the guns had been delivered in Mumbai. effing Babus...

"There has been no official advisory from the Indian authority on the temporary suspension of business activities in relation to the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) investigation of former director-general of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB)," the company told Aerospace DAILY.

"We do not have any Joint Venture with OFB and have not signed any agreement with OFB," said Gaius Ho, spokesman for ST Kinetics.

ST Kinetics says OFB approached it when the Ministry of Home Affairs was looking for a modern rifle, as the OFB's rifles had failed during internal trials. Is this the famous MSMC?
"ST Kinetics' SAR21 was presented for trials and evaluation. The discussion was for ST Kinetics to license its intellectual property to OFB if the MHA should decide to select the SAR21 and award a contract. There has been no decision to date," Ho explained.

Following the ban, "ST Kinetics has since approached the authority for clarifications and presented to the ministry a list of all our business activities in India. While awaiting a response from the ministry, we have offered all cooperation to assist with any investigation as appropriate and hope that the ministry will quickly review the matter and clear ST Kinetics' reputation," Ho said.

"We are perturbed by the change of events and feel strongly that we have not been fairly treated as a legitimate bidder who is committed to helping the Indian MoD with its modernization efforts," Ho added. "ST Kinetics is definitely a victim of the whole situation."

ST Kinetics' Pegasus LWH is a lightweight gun with self-propelling capability. The Pegasus LWH offered to the Indian defense ministry was customized to fully meet the requirements of the RFP, Ho said.

Chai bisqoot continues....it helps to treat the whole episode as a comedy..at least the BP remains low, lest I embrace the fate of Michael Jackson.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 27 Jun 2009 12:55

Yesterday,IBN7 was showing video of pinaka testing in which after couple of clear rocket launches,
third rocket busted in the barell.
Tried searching the ibn7 site,but found nothing.Was that an old video circulated by DDM again??

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 29 Jun 2009 04:59

Despite ban, Singapore guns arrive for trials

The Defence Ministry could consider the option of acquiring 155mm light howitzers from an alternative supplier following its decision to “put on hold” acquisitions from Singapore Technologies among other firms... the Ministry might explore the option of getting these guns under the foreign military sales route

kidoman · Post by **kidoman** » 29 Jun 2009 16:13

vipins wrote:Yesterday,IBN7 was showing video of pinaka testing in which after couple of clear rocket launches,
third rocket busted in the barell.
Tried searching the ibn7 site,but found nothing.Was that an old video circulated by DDM again??

Yupp. I saw that too.
It was horrible.The first 2 rockets went smoothly but the third one tore apart.Some part flew and and the remaining burst inside the chamber.Then the whole thing caught fire.
6 men were sitting inside.Thankfully, all got off quickly without any harm.
I dont think its a Old video..