Artillery Discussion Thread

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sanjaychoudhry
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 01 Sep 2009 13:49

Babur invaded India , defeated Ibrahim and the main architect of his victory was the artillery


Ibrahim Lodhi was a vassal of the Rajputs.

The real war for control of north India was fought between Babar and Rana Sanga. You will notice that all invaders -- from Ghori to Babar to British -- actually had to fight the final battle with the Hindus for the control of India. Muslims were merely a side show.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby chiru » 01 Sep 2009 13:54

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
Babur invaded India , defeated Ibrahim and the main architect of his victory was the artillery


Ibrahim Lodhi was a vassal of the Rajputs.

The real war for control of north India was fought between Babar and Rana Sanga. You will notice that all invaders -- from Ghori to Babar to British -- actually had to fight the final battle with the Hindus for the control of India. Muslims were merely a side show.


oh come on mate there was no need for that LETS STICK TO THE ARTILLERY FOR NOW :roll:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rkirankr » 01 Sep 2009 14:59

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
Babur invaded India , defeated Ibrahim and the main architect of his victory was the artillery


Ibrahim Lodhi was a vassal of the Rajputs.

The real war for control of north India was fought between Babar and Rana Sanga. You will notice that all invaders -- from Ghori to Babar to British -- actually had to fight the final battle with the Hindus for the control of India. Muslims were merely a side show.

oh oh ok look what have I started. No let us not go to that topic. I was merely saying that the powers in India had neglected artillery then and are doing it now. That is all. Please do not read anything more in this.

One of the first things I do whenever I come to BRF is first check the arty thread, armor thread and then shankar guru's scenario and go on to strat forum to read benis dhaaga.
I do not know when the arty thread will bring a smile on my lips :cry:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby soumik » 03 Sep 2009 09:33

one question
how effective would systems like the IAI jumper or nimrod3 be in India's context?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby kittoo » 03 Sep 2009 09:37

rkirankr wrote:I do not know when the arty thread will bring a smile on my lips :cry:


Same feeling here.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby soumik » 03 Sep 2009 10:04

also why don't we enter into a JV with the Russians for the MSTA and then mordenise that gun further?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 03 Sep 2009 10:48

प्रणाम,

I have a प्रश्न, Why are we looking to upgrade the Bofors gun all the time?

Why can't we just buy newer artillary systems(atleast छोटी मात्रा में), like the one below? और बोफोर्स कॉ कबादीवाले कॉ बेच दें

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmn22F7xq4

As the video shows the gun is already being operated in cold condtions. ऐसे में यह हमारी ज़रूरत के हिसाब से अक्चा है

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Young Officer Loses life during Arty training! RIP.

Postby nikhil_p » 24 Sep 2009 22:12

Web LinksBHARATRAKSHAK.COM
SHELL SHOCK



In a mysterious accident at the school of Artillery at Devlali, 25-year-old Lt KM Tripathi died. The incident is being investigated, while his family in Allahabad comes to terms with the news of his death


VISHAKHA SHARMA




In a freak accident that occurred on the firing range of the School of Artillery in Devlali, Lietenant K M Tripathi lost his life. Twenty five year-old Lt Tripathi who hails from Allahabad was part of a training gun firing session on Tuesday at around 11.30 am. He was one of the many young officers (YO) who were part of the 24-week course and was training to be an artillery officer.
Pune Mirror
spoke to Col A K Bhuyan, Col GS (SD) of the School of Artillery at Devlali who said, “Firing was going on for the YO’s course that commenced on July 28 at our ranges. In this firing session, Lt Tripathi was No 3 (number allotted according to the tasks a YO performs. No 1 is incharge of the gun). He was using a 105mm Indian Field Gun (IFG). The gun had already fired two rounds earlier and the third round was being fired by Lt Tripathi.”
“As he fired, the shell that was supposed to land in the impact area, at a distance of approximately 5 kms, landed at a distance of 5 to 10 metres. After getting out of the barrel, the shell, instead of landing at the impact area, burst there itself. One of the splinters, therefore, hit him on the right side of his chest and he was immediately taken to Military Hospital (MH). However, by the time he reached the hospital, he passed away,” continued Col Bhuyan.
When we asked him if the gun was defective, Col Bhuyan replied, “The gun was not defective. It had already fired two rounds earlier and in the third round too, the bullet had left the barrel. Besides, there is always a pre-firing inspection done by technicians from the electronics and mechanical engineering branch (EME), who checks the system for safety. There probably was a problem with the ammunition, which is why the shell burst. But at present, we can’t comment on the issue at all, as the investigation is on. The other YOs are alright and are firing today. The firing session is going on ”
“On September 23, in the evening, there will be a wreath laying ceremony to pay homage to the dead officer and after that, the body will be sent to Mumbai by flight. On the morning of September 24, the body will be sent to Allahabad.” added Col Bhuyan.
Vijay Mani Tripathi, father of Lt Tripathi, said, “I have not been able to go to Devlali. We are told that my son’s body will reach us in the morning on September 24. We are waiting for it. At this moment, I cannot say what went wrong and whom to blame.”
Ajay Mani Tripathi, the older brother of Lt Tripathi said, “We have been told that my brother died in an unfortunate accident. Right now, I can’t say whether it is true or not. I will find out only once I go there. We are not in a situation to speak. The atmosphere in my house is really very tense. My mother is unconscious at present.”



K M Tripathi




The 105mm Indian Field Gun which Lt K M Tripathi was using


From the Pune Mirror...

It quotes bharatrakshak.com ...

RIP Braveheart.

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Daily/skins/MIRRORNEW/navigator.asp?Daily=MMIR&showST=true

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 24 Sep 2009 22:17

Sad - what a waste of a life.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nikhil_p » 24 Sep 2009 22:47

Surya wrote:Sad - what a waste of a life.


Worst part is...I didnt see this being mentioned by any of the major news papers...

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 04 Oct 2009 18:08

Now that the ghost of Q has been laid to rest, we may finally see movement in the Artillery procurement program. As it is, Bofors is known to be way ahead of all its rivals in terms of the technical parameters. May this be the Diali gift to the IA and its gunners. May 'God of War' be re surrected and retain its full glory

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Re: Young Officer Loses life during Arty training! RIP.

Postby Rahul M » 04 Oct 2009 18:18

nikhil_p wrote:...........

bl**dy OFB and its QC ! :x

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby aditp » 04 Oct 2009 18:23

rohitvats wrote:Now that the ghost of Q has been laid to rest, we may finally see movement in the Artillery procurement program. As it is, Bofors is known to be way ahead of all its rivals in terms of the technical parameters. May this be the Diali gift to the IA and its gunners. May 'God of War' be re surrected and retain its full glory



That aint happenin mate. IF we go for Bofors however good it may be, the opposition will be baying for kangresi khoon all the way to Spaghettiland.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 04 Oct 2009 19:03

never know -

share the kickbacks with the appropriate opposition leaders and all will be good

hope the arty program starts moving

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 04 Oct 2009 22:24

News of Indian Army equipment plans is most depressing. Towed guns, light guns, tracked guns, light tanks, wheeled tanks, helicopters and what not ... all just starting now with no end in sight.

IAF was just going along fine when all of a sudden we find ourselves groping for ab inito and lead in trainers ... all this when we thought the Hawk "advanced" jet trainer will solve everything and Sitara was merely a couple of years away from service. Thankfully the arguments on the next refuelers has started but I can already see the looming bad news when we here Gajraj aircraft being brought to IAF mueseum due to 'fatugue'.

Only solace this jingo finds is in the way Indian Navy is shaping up.

:(( :(( :(( :((

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 04 Oct 2009 22:28

Gentlement - apologies for the whine post!

Anyways found the lone picture I have ever seen of Indian Army Abbots in the field:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... illery.jpg

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 04 Oct 2009 22:42

AdityaG, if you deny an organization its dues and starve it of funds, this is what happens. IA should already have had these things.Bu we all know the lost decades.

BTW, thank you for the pics of Abbot.I'm seeing them for the 1st time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Juggi G » 08 Oct 2009 10:04


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby soumik » 08 Oct 2009 10:17

on the positive side the rocket artillery programs seem to be progressing well,is there any further news on the extended range pinaka?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Paul » 11 Oct 2009 02:47

Dropping the Bofors probe is a step in the right direction. For 22 years this scandal has been used by politicians to embarass the INC...and it has wreaked havoc by the armed forces by putting crucial acquisitions on hold and blacklisting key arms merchants. We could not extradite and prosecute the CEO of Union Carbide, and if we could not extradite Win Chadda, Quattrochi, or other usual suspects for this long...there is no point in dragging it further. The only victor in this sorry episode are the left parties and the caste combinations of the plains.

I think the army drew the right conclusions from this scandal and probably did the right thing by pre-emptively ordering T90 MBTs from Russia. Notwithstanding the problems with the tank ( will be sorted out in time), India has one of the strongest tank forces in Asia.

If Bofors saga had repeated in case of armour, the state of the army would be even more pathetic. On the forum it could have driven jingos to drink, drugs, and suicide. We should thank General Paddy for preventing this from happening.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 11 Oct 2009 07:57

This is an excerpt from the link posted by Juggi G:

There are indications now that the contract may swing in favour of BAE Systems Bofors, which manufactures the M 777 ultra light howitzer, that is being used by the American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sources say that the contract is being pursued through the foreign military sales route from the US, which has bought several thousand guns from BAE


It was my understanding that U.S. doesn't buy phoren maal. How is it then that they are buying from BAE, a British company?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 11 Oct 2009 08:06

they don't buy foreign made maal. they simply license manufacture items in US if need be. abrams main gun for example is from rhinemetall. in most cases the big arms manufacturers have a US subsidiary anyway which does the job.
for example :
The M777 howitzer is a towed artillery piece developed by British Vickers group, and is produced by BAE Systems Land Systems in the US.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 11 Oct 2009 09:47

Rahul M wrote:they don't buy foreign made maal. they simply license manufacture items in US if need be. abrams main gun for example is from rhinemetall. in most cases the big arms manufacturers have a US subsidiary anyway which does the job.
for example :
The M777 howitzer is a towed artillery piece developed by British Vickers group, and is produced by BAE Systems Land Systems in the US.


Ok, so is it like the licensed production of Sukhoi's in India?

In any case, I am shocked to know that, Chacha Shyam has some nonindigenous hathyaar in his jhola.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pranav » 12 Oct 2009 09:18

Paul wrote:Dropping the Bofors probe is a step in the right direction. For 22 years this scandal has been used by politicians to embarass the INC...and it has wreaked havoc by the armed forces by putting crucial acquisitions on hold and blacklisting key arms merchants. We could not extradite and prosecute the CEO of Union Carbide, and if we could not extradite Win Chadda, Quattrochi, or other usual suspects for this long...there is no point in dragging it further. The only victor in this sorry episode are the left parties and the caste combinations of the plains.

I think the army drew the right conclusions from this scandal and probably did the right thing by pre-emptively ordering T90 MBTs from Russia. Notwithstanding the problems with the tank ( will be sorted out in time), India has one of the strongest tank forces in Asia.

If Bofors saga had repeated in case of armour, the state of the army would be even more pathetic. On the forum it could have driven jingos to drink, drugs, and suicide. We should thank General Paddy for preventing this from happening.


It's perfectly possible to nab the Bofors criminals as well make sure that the Army has the artillery it needs. But then all political parties are almost equally complicit in looting the people. That's why the Bofors probe did not make sufficient progress even during the NDA period.

As regards T-90, that is another scam, involving the deliberate stifling of the superior Arjun tank.

One question that remains unanswered for me - when DRDO can manufacture the 120mm Arjun gun, what's so hard about making a somewhat bigger 155mm gun?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Paul » 12 Oct 2009 10:18

Wrt T-90, what I am referring to is that a decision was made (with natasha's support of course) and that is important. It is the bureaucratic slowdown in the defence procurement decision making that is partially responsible for killing the armed forces preparedness.

Unfortunately this slowdown is not making the armed forces work with desi sources to develop local maal.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby aditp » 12 Oct 2009 13:35

Pranav wrote:One question that remains unanswered for me - when DRDO can manufacture the 120mm Arjun gun, what's so hard about making a somewhat bigger 155mm gun?


When the Army hasnt accepted the Arjun Tank, with one of the major complains being gun accuracy, why would it accept a DRDO howitzer?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pranav » 12 Oct 2009 15:54

aditp wrote:
Pranav wrote:One question that remains unanswered for me - when DRDO can manufacture the 120mm Arjun gun, what's so hard about making a somewhat bigger 155mm gun?


When the Army hasnt accepted the Arjun Tank, with one of the major complains being gun accuracy, why would it accept a DRDO howitzer?


As far as I know, the Arjun gun is pretty good, with a hit probability of 90%.

It doesn't seem that there are any insurmountable problems.

Fire Power

The superior armour defeating capability of the indigenously developed Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) ammunition and 120 mm calibre rifled gun give MBT ARJUN an edge over contemporary world tanks. A computer-controlled integrated fire control system incorporating day-cum-night stabilized sighting system guarantees a very high first round hit probability and reduced reaction time to bring effective fire on targets.

The stabilization system for the main armament, slaved to the sighting equipment in elevation and azimuth, with a high and accurate laying speed, allows fire on the move.

The superior fire power of MBT is based on:

Accurate and fast target acquisition capability during day and night and in all types of weather .
Shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements
Ability to accurately engage targets on move
Capability to destroy all possible enemy armour at maximum battle ranges
Excellent first hit probability

Main Armament

The rifled 120 mm ARJUN gun together with the newly developed super velocity ammunition, can defeat any contemporary armour used in tanks. The electro-slag refined gun steel tube is autofrettaged to withstand higher gas pressures. A thermal jacket prevents irregular temperature distribution on to the tube due to the weather influences.

http://www.drdo.org/products/mbt.htm

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 19 Oct 2009 07:51

@ 2:04 of this video is the kind of facility that DRDO would have to devleop in order to build or refurbish a state of the art tank in a minimum amount of time.

I wonder what kind of processes are employed in building the Arjun tank. I wonder how much of that is automated like this.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Igorr » 20 Oct 2009 17:36

Smerch video
[youtube]Si2zhgi7j2s&fmt[/youtube]

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Austin » 20 Oct 2009 18:28

The most interesting piece of ammunition in Smerch is the anti-tank , it has a small MMW seeker as sensors , and as seen from video it keeps revolving and scans for target , once a tank is confirmed it blasts of the charges towards the tank in Top Attack mode.

The Russian trucks have a flat low profile and are very ruggedness, the IA Tatra truck in comparison looks more like babe in the woods

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby AmitR » 20 Oct 2009 18:37

Igorr wrote:Smerch video


At the end the rocket actually launches a payload of some sort of mini UAV. Is that a really what it is.
Is there any more info.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 20 Oct 2009 21:27

Igorr wrote:Smerch video


The rockets used @ 2:17 are similar to this round
The only difference is that on top of the rotating fins it also has a parachute which seems to further lower the descent speed and increase the seek time in air.

Since its a Bofors 155 mm round in the 2nd video, does the IA have that? Have they ever used it, like in Kargil?

AmitR wrote:
Igorr wrote:Smerch video


At the end the rocket actually launches a payload of some sort of mini UAV. Is that a really what it is.
Is there any more info.


It sure does look like a neat UAV but after ejecting does it just recon the area or is also used to attack a target by colliding with it?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Igorr » 20 Oct 2009 21:43

AmitR wrote:
Igorr wrote:Smerch video


At the end the rocket actually launches a payload of some sort of mini UAV. Is that a really what it is.
Is there any more info.
This is ENICS 9M534 UAV for 300 mm Smerch. Is used for target recognition on 70 km distance and fire correction. pic.
Image Image Image
Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 20 Oct 2009 22:28

be thankful that no boforic deals with russia.. heck, think about the scenario? btw, hopefully everything is smoother or smothered there.

sweden is anyway a small nation to compete against a big cold war hero.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 20 Oct 2009 23:04

SaiK wrote:sweden is anyway a small nation to compete against a big cold war hero.


Small country's often dominate niche markets. For example, Japan trumps USA in consumer electronics market and if it wasn't for their post ww2 pacifist constitution I believe they would dominate the world in military technology too.


I love Russia don't get me wrong, but as far as I am concerned the Gorshkov AC deal, grounding of Mig-29's, A gazallion Mig-21 crashes also the INSAS rifle cartridges breaking in the cold in Kargil are all much bigger scandals than the Bofors bribery scandal.

Bofors guns performed exceptionally well in difficult enviromental conditions, so as long as the necessary checks are in place for keeping the babus greed at bay, I don't think we should have any problem buying from them.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Oct 2009 00:18

Austin wrote:The most interesting piece of ammunition in Smerch is the anti-tank , it has a small MMW seeker as sensors , and as seen from video it keeps revolving and scans for target , once a tank is confirmed it blasts of the charges towards the tank in Top Attack mode.

The Russian trucks have a flat low profile and are very ruggedness, the IA Tatra truck in comparison looks more like babe in the woods



The tank buster looks like a sensor fuzed weapon CBU-97 (concept-wise), that the U.S was negotiating to sell to India. The Khan weapon is air-delivered - I am not sure if there is an artillery equivalent to it. But a pretty awesome weapon for smart saturation bombing. The gap between guided and unguided projectiles is diminishing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97_Sensor_Fuzed_Weapon

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Igorr » 21 Oct 2009 00:48

Prem Kumar wrote: But a pretty awesome weapon for smart saturation bombing. The gap between guided and unguided projectiles is diminishing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97_Sensor_Fuzed_Weapon

'Bazalt' manufactures guided cassette bombs with analogous top-attacking elements as well: link

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 12 Nov 2009 04:44

Guided MLRS Reaches New Distance Record In Successful Test

As it stands now this seems to have a slightly longer range than the smerch.

But, the Picture shown in this article seems to be that of the unitary long range tactical missile, shown in thisvideo @ 1:47

So, was it the MLRS series rocket which got tested? Or, was it the ATACMS which was tested?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 12 Nov 2009 04:56

Govt eases arms firm blacklist rules
http://telegraphindia.com/1091112/jsp/n ... 730661.jsp
Two banned companies — a Singaporean firm vying for a billion-dollar order for artillery guns and an Israeli arms supplier — are hoping for a reprieve after the government today said it has amended the rules under which they were blacklisted in June. The defence ministry has amended the rules that may allow the companies to participate in trials and tests but not to conclude contracts before the CBI completes its investigation.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rahulm » 12 Nov 2009 08:30

The SP artillery gap is acknowledged and there is eagerness to plug this gap immediately.The delay is political.

Some points and observations:

    * The Bofors gun is highly regarded. Its standing has gone up several notches after its role in Kargil. Inventory needs to be expanded.It would be a shame to throw away such goodwill and bring in a new replacement.

    * Last great strategic thinker in the Army was Gen. Sunderji. Requirement for greater strategic thinking at the top levels of IA and there is some admiration for the IN and IAF (in that order) in this regard.

    * IA approach is still largely tactical, defensive in nature and inventory is a patchwork. (Could be doctrinal outcome as IAF and IN are also meant for power projection outside India's borders).

    * There is a feeling our strategic air lift capability is below par and needs to be augmented.


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