Artillery Discussion Thread

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Dec 2009 22:37

Its better to buy the 130mm guns which are available now then hanker after unavailabble 155mm guns with super duper specs. This reduces the logistics train and the induction schedule as IA is already trained to handle it.

The PRC threat is now not later.

Rohitvats, Can you do a spec comparison of the 130mm and the ultra light weight 155mm with regard to throw weight, weight of the gun and the range. If you can find accuracy data that would be a bonus.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Dec 2009 22:47

ramana, need time till tomorrow. will do.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 01 Dec 2009 22:56

Rahul M wrote:they will buy old design 130mm guns from russia but not 155mm guns from India. sheesh !

But is there a 55 mm Indian design available.Heard about a DRDO effort many......many moons ago, but nothing ever since. The article also doesnt seem to suggest any such thing

negi · Post by **negi** » 01 Dec 2009 23:00

155 unavailable ?

As for logistics IA had Soltam upgrade a substantial number of 130mm pieces (180 as per Globalsecurity .org) to 155mm/45 cal , now unless the upgrade programme has run into rough waters it makes little sense to buy 130mm pieces .

Btw one can't say these might be even for replacing the age old 105mm filed guns .

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Dec 2009 23:02

Dmurphy wrote:Surprise Surprise!

India To Acquire Russian 130mm Guns
In a sudden turnaround of events, the Indian Army has taken a decision to acquire additional 130mm field guns from the surplus stock of former Soviet republics. This change in policy has been deliberated due to the urgent need to deploy additional artillery along the Sino-Indian border.

Must be in response to this news: China asks India to stop construction activity along border

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/ ... border.htm

Something is cooking and we are scrambling last minute. There is a saying in Mallu which roughly translates to "Starting to search for a pail of water only when you have to go urgently"

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 01 Dec 2009 23:11

rohitvats wrote:The numbers in the report above do not add up:

1. Item 1 - 2,814 guns in a $4billion deal
2.Towed Guns: 400 (OTS)+1,180 manufacture
3.SP Arty - OTS (not mentioned)+1,180 manufacture
4.Mounted Guns - 200(OTS)+614 manufacture
5.ULWH - 140

Total - 3,714. What is the correct number and break up?
Also, I'm assuming ounted guns mean system like Archer - Wheeled Arty.

Rohit Sir, subtract 400 Towed OTS, 200 Mounted OTS and 300 SP OTS. You get 2814. (I remember seeing in papers the 300 figure for SP OTS.)
The reporter must not have realised 1180 for Towed and Mounted guns are inclusive of OTS numbers.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Dec 2009 23:13

negi wrote:155 unavailable ?

As for logistics IA had Soltam upgrade a substantial number of 130mm pieces (180 as per Globalsecurity .org) to 155mm/45 cal , now unless the upgrade programme has run into rough waters it makes little sense to buy 130mm pieces .

Btw one can't say these might be even for replacing the age old 105mm filed guns .

negi,as per reports on the net, the upgrade hasn't served the purpose in terms of range and other operational issues. Also, we need additional arty to equip new formations raised. Some might replace the 105mm IFG in the field arty role.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Dec 2009 23:22

KiranM wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The numbers in the report above do not add up:

1. Item 1 - 2,814 guns in a $4billion deal
2.Towed Guns: 400 (OTS)+1,180 manufacture
3.SP Arty - OTS (not mentioned)+1,180 manufacture
4.Mounted Guns - 200(OTS)+614 manufacture
5.ULWH - 140

Total - 3,714. What is the correct number and break up?
Also, I'm assuming ounted guns mean system like Archer - Wheeled Arty.
Rohit Sir, subtract 400 Towed OTS, 200 Mounted OTS and 300 SP OTS. You get 2814. (I remember seeing in papers the 300 figure for SP OTS.)

The reporter must not have realised 1180 for Towed and Mounted guns are inclusive of OTS numbers.

Thanx for the clarification. The no stands at 3,114 guns. So it means we're targeting 173 regiments of arty@18 guns each. Some of these will go to trg. institutions, so the number is likley to be in 165 regiments range. @ 4 regiments/bde, we've ~42 arty bdes.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 01 Dec 2009 23:27

No thanks, you're blacklisted!
By Ajai Shukla
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ed/376681/

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 01 Dec 2009 23:47

Prem Kumar wrote:Must be in response to this news: China asks India to stop construction activity along border

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/ ... border.htm

Something is cooking and we are scrambling last minute. There is a saying in Mallu which roughly translates to "Starting to search for a pail of water only when you have to go urgently"

If we have the guts to go and order guns in such large numbers, why couldn't we just keep up with the work in J&K instead? Pragmatism at work here. May be to see that the budget allocation for the year doesn't go unutilised.

In Konkani, we have saying "Digging a well for water after the fire gets raging"

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 02 Dec 2009 00:22

Sure - I agree that the IA is doing the best thing "given where we are today". Except we didnt have to be here - as has been belabored in this thread.

Looks like the Konkanis are a bit more refined than the mallus

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 Dec 2009 00:42

rohitvats wrote: negi,as per reports on the net, the upgrade hasn't served the purpose in terms of range and other operational issues. Also, we need additional arty to equip new formations raised. Some might replace the 105mm IFG in the field arty role.

I wonder if this shows IA or even MoD in any better light specially after upgrading more than 100 pieces of 130mm guns to 155mm, and weren't the upgraded samples tested prior to giving a go ahead to Soltam ? What credibility does this lend to the reports of Archer passing IA tests in flying colours ?

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Dec 2009 04:17

Dmurphy wrote:Surprise Surprise!

India To Acquire Russian 130mm Guns
...

Due to the growing requirements of the Indian Army, a $4 billion artillery modernization programme was cleared which aims to induct roughly 2,814 guns of different types.

The modernization program includes the $1.6 billion project to buy 400 155mm/52-calibre towed artillery guns, which is to be followed by indigenous manufacture of another 1,180 howitzers. The contenders for the acquisition of 400 155mm/52-calibre towed artillery guns are BAE Systems, ST Kinetics of Singapore and Israeli Soltam. India will also acquire 155mm/52-calibre self-propelled tracked guns which is to be followed by indigenous manufacture of another 1,180 howitzers.

There will be an off-the-shelf purchase of 200 155mm/52-calibre mounted gun systems from overseas and will be followed by indigenous manufacture of another 614 such howitzers under transfer of technology. Another project was to acquire 140 air-mobile ultra-light howitzers (ULHs) for $580 million. This is being eagerly awaited since the Indian Army needs ULHs howitzers to ensure artillery can be deployed in remote inaccessible areas.

...

rohitvats wrote:The numbers in the report above do not add up:

1. Item 1 - 2,814 guns in a $4billion deal
2.Towed Guns: 400 (OTS)+1,180 manufacture
3.SP Arty - OTS (not mentioned)+1,180 manufacture
4.Mounted Guns - 200(OTS)+614 manufacture
5.ULWH - 140

Total - 3,714. What is the correct number and break up?
Also, I'm assuming ounted guns mean system like Archer - Wheeled Arty.

As far as the 155mm/52-calibre self-propelled tracked guns, various news reports in the past put the number at 100 units. I think the whole "indigenous manufacture of another 1,180 [SP] howitzers" is not correct and the reporter probably got confused with the towed artillery guns, which are planned to have indigenous manufacture of around 1,000+ howitzers (this also can be verified by various news reports).

There is no need for IA to have 100 + 1,180 SP howitzers. Where are they going to use those other than the plains/desert alongside its 3 armor strike corps? It makes more sense to just have that 100 units (plus maybe a few extra) since it is used for limited role compared to other types. Even at 100 units, each of the 3 strike corps will have about 30 SP howitzers (plus hundreds of Wheeled and Towed versions).

So if you remove that "1,180" additional SP howitzers, the numbers will look like this:

1,580 - Towed Guns (400 (OTS) + 1,180 manufacture)
100 - SP Artillery (100 (OTS))
814 - Mounted (Wheeled) Guns (200(OTS) + 614 manufacture)
140 - Ultra-Light Guns (140 (OTS))
---------------------------------------------------------
Total: 2,634 guns

So that leaves about 180 guns [2,814 (as total number given) - 2,634 (as breakdown given) = 180] unaccounted for. This could be the 180 units of the Soltam upgrade of the 130mm guns to 155mm caliber.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Dec 2009 07:55

But the 130 mm gun is NOT a howitzer - so not sure how exactly it will that job??

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Dec 2009 08:08

Aditya G wrote:We can only pray that the OFB-Army combine get their act together and implement Metamorphosis upgrade on these guns.

but that is unacceptable to army. unfortunately so is the alternative that was chosen, the soltam upg.

naveen, 105 mm was earmarked to be replaced by the light 155mm guns(39 cal).

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 Dec 2009 08:41

Rahul mian I was just hinting at one more possibility just in case and btw who is this Naveen hain ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2009 08:42

sadly this thread sounds like pak generals in rawalpindi discussing who will get malleswaram and who will get jayanagar once their armour divs conquer bangalore in kerala

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Dec 2009 09:15

He he...apt analogy.

No point discussing individual numbers when even remote chance of induction of even ONE piece of new artillery is atleast 10-15 years away (and thats being optimistic)

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 02 Dec 2009 11:34

Some good news finally.

Mahindras, BAE Formalise JV, To Build Mil Vehicles, Howitzers In Faridabad

Explicitly mentions the IA favourite FH-77B. Maybe thats why the IA isnt pushing as hard for the 155mm tube as it should be. Dealing with M&M would be far less scandalous for any Govt than dealing with Bofors.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Dec 2009 14:31

@Srai: The argument wrt the SP Arty requirement is flawed. And here is why:

--Armored Divisions*3 --> 3 Arty bdes@4 SP regiments each-->12 Regiments@18 guns/regiment---> 216
--RAPIDS*7 (planned)--> 7 Arty bdes@2 SP regiments each (assumption**)-->14 Regiments@18 guns/regiment---> 252
--Independent Armored Bdes*7--> 7 Regiments@18 guns/regiment-->126
--Independent Mechanized Bde*2--> 2 Regiments@18 guns/regiment--> 36

TOTAL:630

** SP Arty component for RAPIDS is an assumption as the whole Division is not mechanized. SP component is likely to be required for supporting the Armored Bde of the Division.

Another important point, based on the terrain of operation and role envisaged for a mechanize formation, the SP Arty component may be a mix of tracked and wheeled vehicles. The requirement at the end of the day from SP Arty is for the guns to keep pace with battle and move fast enough keep the elements of mechanize units under cover. Subject to terrain, the same can be achieved by tracked as well as wheeled systems. The above calculation is only for SP Arty-tracked variant.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 02 Dec 2009 14:50

aditp, good news indeed.

I read on another place that the Bofors Archer now exists in a more developed version. From moving to firing posiion in just 14s and a rate of fire 10-12 / minute. Refilling all mags 12s. Profile is slimmer with new armorpack.

Sweden says 2 Archer-batallions replace 16 FH77 (a/b?) batallions in fire power/cover... Norway+Sweden bought this version.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 02 Dec 2009 18:46

We had a start with Arjun and its gun. How hard and how long it will take to upgrade that one into a SP howitzer ?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 02 Dec 2009 19:53

Kanson wrote:We had a start with Arjun and its gun. How hard and how long it will take to upgrade that one into a SP howitzer ?

The arjun tube is technically not a "gun" - it is a rifle. Howitzers are smooth bore weapons.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Dec 2009 04:55

rohitvats wrote:@Srai: The argument wrt the SP Arty requirement is flawed. And here is why:

--Armored Divisions*3 --> 3 Arty bdes@4 SP regiments each-->12 Regiments@18 guns/regiment---> 216
--RAPIDS*7 (planned)--> 7 Arty bdes@2 SP regiments each (assumption**)-->14 Regiments@18 guns/regiment---> 252
--Independent Armored Bdes*7--> 7 Regiments@18 guns/regiment-->126
--Independent Mechanized Bde*2--> 2 Regiments@18 guns/regiment--> 36

TOTAL:630

** SP Arty component for RAPIDS is an assumption as the whole Division is not mechanized. SP component is likely to be required for supporting the Armored Bde of the Division.

Another important point, based on the terrain of operation and role envisaged for a mechanize formation, the SP Arty component may be a mix of tracked and wheeled vehicles. The requirement at the end of the day from SP Arty is for the guns to keep pace with battle and move fast enough keep the elements of mechanize units under cover. Subject to terrain, the same can be achieved by tracked as well as wheeled systems. The above calculation is only for SP Arty-tracked variant.

I could see the SP Artillery for the armored divisions, independent armor brigades, and the independent mechanized brigades. But I don't agree on the SP Artillery need for the RAPIDS, which are more of a defensive holding units. IMO, RAPIDS would be better off with the towed and wheeled variants of the 155mm howitzers.

216 SP guns - 3 Armored Divisions
126 SP guns - 7 Independent Armored Brigades
36 SP guns - 2 Independent Mechanized Brigades
----------------------------------------
Total: 378 SP artillery (tracked) howitzers

That's roughly about 400 guns (or if you include your RAPIDS, 630 guns). So the original article mentioning "followed by 1,180 guns manufacture" [for SP artillery] is not correct at all.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Dec 2009 06:31

Ok it is a rifled gun and howitzer could be called as gun-howitzer. What i'm interested is in knowing how fast DRDO/Industry can bring up SP howitzer based on Arjun chasis.

If Govt. asks DRDO to comeup with a design how good it will be. This proposal is not for towed or other artillery peice. Only for SP howitzer. Can it be made as good as other modern howitzer... And how good the Army approaches this one.

I just thinking aloud.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 03 Dec 2009 06:51

Kanson wrote:What i'm interested is in knowing how fast DRDO/Industry can bring up SP howitzer based on Arjun chasis.
...
If Govt. asks DRDO to comeup with a design how good it will be.

The design exists - it is called Bhim, which uses an Arjun chassis and a Denel T-6 gun. Why ask DRDO to re-invent it?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Dec 2009 07:02

Ofcourse there is Bhim. How good it will be if DRDO resurrects that along the line of Bhim or smething like that. Under the given condition will the ARmy accepts that.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Dec 2009 08:23

Kanson wrote:Ofcourse there is Bhim. How good it will be if DRDO resurrects that along the line of Bhim or smething like that. Under the given condition will the ARmy accepts that.

For your information, Denel has been blacklisted since 2006/7 for alleged corruption (from the 12.5mm caliber sniper guns deal). If this had not happened, 100 Bhims would already have been inducted (or in the process of being inducted) into the IA.

Other thing to note is that DRDO hasn't really been doing R&D into the 155mm artillery types of guns. So if DRDO were to start some form of indigenous 155mm artillery system R&D, it would have to JV with an experienced partner, such as Soltam, to cut the development time and reduce risks. Even then with the partnership (and using Soltam 155mm gun as a basis), expect at least 5+ years for R&D to complete if DRDO wants significant input (30%) into the new gun system. If DRDO were to go at it alone, expect at least 10-15 years for R&D to complete with higher risks - in terms of delays and not meeting IA's requirements.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 03 Dec 2009 09:18

So developing 155mm SPG solo would take as long as a BMD system

Say it aint so boss, say it aint so.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Dec 2009 10:13

I could see the SP Artillery for the armored divisions, independent armor brigades, and the independent mechanized brigades. But I don't agree on the SP Artillery need for the RAPIDS, which are more of a defensive holding units. IMO, RAPIDS would be better off with the towed and wheeled variants of the 155mm howitzers.

While the actual number and type (wheeled/tracked) of SP Arty for RAPIDS will depend on the terrain, these formations are by no means defensive. If they were, IA Strike Corps wouldn't have been equipped with them, right? Lets see: 2 Corps-14 RAPID, 1 Corps-4 RAPID, 21 Corps-36 RAPID, 10 Corps-18 and 24 RAPID with only 18 RAPID classified as defensive formation.

That's roughly about 400 guns (or if you include your RAPIDS, 630 guns). So the original article mentioning "followed by 1,180 guns manufacture" [for SP artillery] is not correct at all

Agree on the 1,180 part.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Dec 2009 10:26

tejas wrote:So developing 155mm SPG solo would take as long as a BMD system

Say it aint so boss, say it aint so.

With the BMD, DRDO/ISRO already has build a lot of capacity through the IGMDP and Space programs. This technical capacity (scientists, production labs, etc) has been built on a sustained effort since the late 1970s to early 1980s - equivalent to about 30 years of R&D efforts. Plus, IAI has also provided some radar subsystems and consultancy.

However, with the 155mm gun system, DRDO has not been active in this area at all. This technical capacity is what will take 10+ years to acquire going solo, and it will be fraught with risks. It's not like IA would want a 1st gen 155mm artillery gun; IA would want it to be par (or better) than what is on the market. The systems on the market have gone through generations of improvements over many decades. This is why it will take DRDO 10-15 years to develop a new "world class" 155mm artillery gun system, if it were to try to do it solo.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 03 Dec 2009 19:50

srai garu, what i don't understand is what has been done wrt 155mm howitzer development in the last quarter century?
Apparently nothing. I have no doubt that state of the art systems would require a good deal of time and money to develop but the GOI has neither done the needful via DRDO or purchased the tech. from abroad for what is approaching 3 decades.

I don't see how we can fight a one front conflict much less two without something as basic as field artillery.

Cheers.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Dec 2009 20:05

I think I've said this earlier, DRDO had a 155mm howitzer design that was well liked by some in IA but was shot down due to the general distrust of DRDO in early 90's.
they decided to wait for the bofors in stead !

IIRC a couple of years back DRDO did display a SP gun system mounted on a truck, some members might still have that image. I don't know if it was a de novo design or a metomorphosis specimen, I think the former.

in the current situation when ANY damn gun would have done, they went for IMHO the worst possible solution, the 130 mm russian guns which IA wanted to move away from in early 2000's !

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 03 Dec 2009 20:13

Rahul M wrote:...IIRC a couple of years back DRDO did display a SP gun system mounted on a truck, some members might still have that image. I don't know if it was a de novo design or a metomorphosis specimen, I think the former....

You must be referring to Denel T5 based on Tatra chassis. Other than that in recent defexpo they showcased a 105 mm system

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Dec 2009 20:18

not the denel system but I may be mistaken about barrel size I admit.

but the other snippet is true. reading it again I find I haven't worded it clearly. the drdo design had actually progressed as far as prototypes and some live firings and was still considered simple and reliable, although not as soopah doopah as FH77B. if we had the foresight to continue that program we would probably have had a rival to these designs by now.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Dec 2009 20:38

Chances are that DRDO might be asked to fill in the requirements in SP segment. Less than 1 yr or little more will be the timeline.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 03 Dec 2009 21:35

in the current situation when ANY damn gun would have done, they went for IMHO the worst possible solution, the 130 mm russian guns which IA wanted to move away from in early 2000's !

Yup a field gun for the mountains. not optimal.

still, At least we have a new 130mm cargo round in production. so some airburst ammunition will be there for use.

'
BTW wasn't the truck mounted thingy at Pragati a 105 mm? or was it 155 ?

there was a DANA looking model at that expo which was 155 mm.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 03 Dec 2009 23:40

You all guys have to excuse me.

But english is not my mother tounge (I´m Swedish) and I have had a hard time following this artillery-tender.

As far as I have understood this tender has been going on for at least 4-5 years and almost all of the companies have been banned.

Is Bofors/Bae still in the the race?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2009 23:48

Your English may be not good but your understanding is very clear.
Anyone who can deliver has been banned.
Its a unilateral disarmament move.

This way the IA cannot ask for weapons which can't be bought from abroad and hence they wont be ready till 2027 and beyond.

Seriously one way out would be to start mfg in India under new name.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 04 Dec 2009 00:26

Rahul M wrote:was still considered simple and reliable, although not as soopah doopah as FH77B.

Been following this thread and still scratching my head about "How soopah doopah can a howitzer get". How can the various mnfg be "that different" and most of all how can one manufacturer "far outweigh" others?

I can understand if the difference are things like "reliability" or "maintainence" or "Robustness" or "automation" for all weathers. But they are all black-white factors doesn't sound as complicated as it is made out to be.. what the heck are we looking for?

I am looking for some links or literature to read! Any pointers?