MRCA News and Discussion

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AmitR
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AmitR » 26 Apr 2009 13:33

keizer wrote:LM has offered F-16s with source codes and the f-18IN comes with source codes as well. now as long as EUVA restrictions are eased and we are given a clean waiver on many of those restrictions and tot the US companies will win. The mig-35 is indeed customizable but by the time we customize it, the price will shoot up, the process takes a lot of time and by 2013 our force levels will be far below min. requirements. I am sure we wont take that gamble and will order one of the teens. I dont understand why we keep talking about the French, they are out , so need for any further discussions. as per today's news the tranche 3 EF looks to be in danger and i doubt this aircraft will comes for less than 130 million a piece.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8017207.stm

The fact is the only aircraft that can satisfy our Navy, Army and AF is the f-18IN or f-35. F-18IN is ideal and can be used for all 3 for their respective missions. The f-16 having an old airframe is also a wrong statement. The F-16IN looks far different and uses the latest CRCs in the airframe, hence the aiframe is far more advanced and newer than the mig-35 airframe which by all means looks like a patched up mig-29. moreover f-16IN will also feature ram materials and its rcs is far lower than any of the contenders. plus f-16 comes with ability and ready to fire mode for missiles like Aim-120 C/D, Aim-9x block 2, Python-5, Asraam, Iris-T, Mica, Magic missiles. It also comes with software to fire Skyflash, Alarm missiles, Apache missiles, AS30L LGB and Popeye-2. not to mention it is also capable of delivering Delilah which we already have. It also has a higher combat range than the mig-35. On any given day the f-16IN is a better option to the mig-35. mig-35 is a default option if none of the other contenders meet minimum contract requirments.

Rafale has been written off due to French negligence, they seemed to have blown off our people repeatedly when we turned to them for questions and secondly, they don't show the possibility to delivering AESA by 2013, since the French AF will start recieving it starting end 2012. Secondly the fact that Rafale falls short in weapons, costs and other tehnical requirements. Though a good aircraft Rafale has been sighted by countries like Japan, Singapore as being difficult to use and fly.

F-18IN comes with a possibility for a growth version of the GE 414 turbofan on request, the new engine has 29,000 lbs output has been ground tested already, which increases its range by around 20-25 % and thrust from 98kn to roughly 118KN and makes the SH even flightier. moreover we must remember that we hold options for 74 more aircraft and the last of the 126 fighters will be made in India by around 2020, now block 3 SH will be ready by then incase we want to order 74 more. now block 3 will have MATV, supercruise and unrefueled combat radius of over 1000NM and newer cutting edge avionics, engines etc, by then the engine output would have reached 130KN. hence the ideal option is still the SH.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/ ... eopts.html


Keizer this sounds like a sales pitch from an American Agent.
Everything you say is fine on paper. But if tomorrow tensions ratchet up in South Asia, can Americans be relied upon to provide the systems and not embargo us. What can a GE414 engine or block 10 SH gonna do if can't get in the air due to paucity of spares and missiles.

Besides all the technology and weapons what we need the complete freedom of using the weapons as and when needed. If that cannot be guaranteed in future then buying such expensive tin planes is not worth the trouble.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Mihir.D » 26 Apr 2009 13:44

Amit,
You beat me to it.
Heres's my reply to Mr. Keizer.
keizer wrote:LM has offered F-16s with source codes and the f-18IN comes with source codes as well. now as long as EUVA restrictions are eased and we are given a clean waiver on many of those restrictions and tot the US companies will win. The mig-35 is indeed customizable but by the time we customize it, the price will shoot up, the process takes a lot of time and by 2013 our force levels will be far below min. requirements. I am sure we wont take that gamble and will order one of the teens. I dont understand why we keep talking about the French, they are out , so need for any further discussions.

Who says the french are out ?
That was some bull s*** from a american paper, as far as the IAF is concerned it is still very much on.
The thought that F-16 and F-18 will come with source code is pure day dreaming. Americans were not ready to supply the f-35 code to UK there closest ally and u expect them to supply them to us. Wake up buddy !

From your views you look a an american sales guy out to make a point on BRF.

keizer wrote:
Rafale has been written off due to French negligence, they seemed to have blown off our people repeatedly when we turned to them for questions and secondly, they don't show the possibility to delivering AESA by 2013, since the French AF will start recieving it starting end 2012. Secondly the fact that Rafale falls short in weapons, costs and other tehnical requirements. Though a good aircraft Rafale has been sighted by countries like Japan, Singapore as being difficult to use and fly.


Japs and Singapore procurement decisions are more political then anything else.
If you want to take other countries decisions into account for making India's decision then even the Su-30mki should be scrapped since it lost in the Korean competition.
The aircraft that India chooses should be one which is available irrespective of India's foreign policy and not affected by steps India takes towards assuring its self defense.

F-18 comes with all that and loads more which may never know (bugs etc. etc)
Will we be able to use that plane if for some reason we get into a confrontation with US of A for some reason in the future ? How customizable will teen fighter be ?

I would like MRCA to be 2 aircraft i.e 74 Mig 35 and 126 Rafale. That would be best option as far as I am concerned. One brand new type and one existing one with all the facilities in place.
Remember the IAF always prefers it is has already flown over a brand new type. It brought the 10 Mirage-2000H rather then Mirage2000-9 which was available. We have to take that into consideration also.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Mihir.D » 26 Apr 2009 14:07

keizer wrote:The fact is the only aircraft that can satisfy our Navy, Army and AF is the f-18IN or f-35. F-18IN is ideal and can be used for all 3 for their respective missions. The f-16 having an old airframe is also a wrong statement. The F-16IN looks far different and uses the latest CRCs in the airframe, hence the aiframe is far more advanced and newer than the mig-35 airframe which by all means looks like a patched up mig-29. moreover f-16IN will also feature ram materials and its rcs is far lower than any of the contenders. plus f-16 comes with ability and ready to fire mode for missiles like Aim-120 C/D, Aim-9x block 2, Python-5, Asraam, Iris-T, Mica, Magic missiles. It also comes with software to fire Skyflash, Alarm missiles, Apache missiles, AS30L LGB and Popeye-2. not to mention it is also capable of delivering Delilah which we already have. It also has a higher combat range than the mig-35. On any given day the f-16IN is a better option to the mig-35. mig-35 is a default option if none of the other contenders meet minimum contract requirments.


And since when did the army start using combat aircraft ?
IAF weapons arsenal does not include many of the above weapons. In case it decides to acquire the above weapon types the Mig-35 would be fully capable to using any of them with its open archirtecture.
What makes you feel the RCS of the Mig-35 won't be treated for low observability ?
A F-16 with CFT would be having a higher RCS then any of the other contenders.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 26 Apr 2009 17:55

NRao wrote:
...f18 is indeed a bomb truck ........


I recall one report where a F-18 had been able to detect an IDE (granted there many types of these) on the ground (in Iraq) AND THEN relay a picture of it in real-time to the troops on the ground. It is THIS ability that is brought to the table by US planes and the 18 in specific. Sensors and networks.

I really do not think the others even come close as we post. Few years down the road things could change of course.

Of course, ALL depends on what the US will be willing to part with. However, with the Taliban doing their dance India better get great sensors (in ADDITION to humint) to see the dance in real-time. What the F-18 brings to the table will be rather cool.

Bomb trucks are sooooo ancient way of thinking.


I find this claim difficult to believe. the amount of data processing power needed would be stupendous, and then how to do it in real time.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 26 Apr 2009 18:07

Guddu wrote:I find this claim difficult to believe. the amount of data processing power needed would be stupendous, and then how to do it in real time.


And, I am not surprised. BR, in this matter, is way behind the curve - even after pertinent posts. Way behind. Specially in understanding sensors and networks.

MRCA posters - even today - are discussing planes on basis of glossies. The RFP is what matters and not the glossies. The glossies at best can provide some direction.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 26 Apr 2009 18:45

Gudduji,

I have posted plenty - specially on networks (which by itself is mind boggling when one compares it to the current network, this network is sooooooooo slow and featureLESS) - you will have to go through previous posts.

Just to give you a jhalak: This from 2007 :: RAYTHEON DEMONSTRATES NEW AESA RADAR COMMUNICATIONS CAPABILITY. Please follow as many links as you can to get a good idea of this technology. Please be aware that it is 2 years old too.

I am not sure IF you are aware - AESA has gone conformal. And, BR is still talking about a Rafale getting an AESA in 2012 and the MiG getting one in ................ The US is so far ahead that it is not even worth discussing this issue (AESA), IMHO of course.

Then you will have to deal with the newer network that the US invested in about 10+ years ago. I have posted about that too.

The combo of sensors (mainly AESA) and this network is too good to be true.

When the F-18 was first offered I had stated that the ONLY reason I would go for the F-18 was sensors + network. THE ONLY reason. That still holds today. I am not sure what the US is willing to part with WRT techs and then ToT, but whatever India gets IMHO it would be far ahead of what the others have to offer and then considering where India is in software (Brhamos, other missiles) it is too sweet of an offer - exception being US Congress and their vagaries, which is a political issue.

Note: the problems encountered in both Iraq and Af-Pak are both political NOT military or technical.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 26 Apr 2009 20:14

NRao wrote:Gudduji,

I have posted plenty - specially on networks (which by itself is mind boggling when one compares it to the current network, this network is sooooooooo slow and featureLESS) - you will have to go through previous posts.

Just to give you a jhalak: This from 2007 :: RAYTHEON DEMONSTRATES NEW AESA RADAR COMMUNICATIONS CAPABILITY. Please follow as many links as you can to get a good idea of this technology. Please be aware that it is 2 years old too.

I am not sure IF you are aware - AESA has gone conformal. And, BR is still talking about a Rafale getting an AESA in 2012 and the MiG getting one in ................ The US is so far ahead that it is not even worth discussing this issue (AESA), IMHO of course.

Then you will have to deal with the newer network that the US invested in about 10+ years ago. I have posted about that too.

The combo of sensors (mainly AESA) and this network is too good to be true.

When the F-18 was first offered I had stated that the ONLY reason I would go for the F-18 was sensors + network. THE ONLY reason. That still holds today. I am not sure what the US is willing to part with WRT techs and then ToT, but whatever India gets IMHO it would be far ahead of what the others have to offer and then considering where India is in software (Brhamos, other missiles) it is too sweet of an offer - exception being US Congress and their vagaries, which is a political issue.

Note: the problems encountered in both Iraq and Af-Pak are both political NOT military or technical.


Mucho gracias senor, looks like some of us are mostly discussing cold war era weapons and technology at BR, whereas the US has moved beyond that. The IAF does talk a lot of network centricity, and are keyed into sensors mostly through work with the Israelis. So perhaps, we can be optimistic that the best decision will be made. Overall, I favor US technology because they spend more on defense research than anyone else. The wild card is the Obama admin.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 26 Apr 2009 23:05

the thing that mig folks would allow us to integrate western stuffs in to russian platforms makes it nothing near all eggs in one basket. that thought should be erased for mig 35. if IAF wants, migs would allow us to use Kaveri-ng into mig35 or GE414 into it, for that matter. it can fire astra, ks172, meteor, python, court israeli 2052 or enhanced elta-drdo-2052 that LCA is going to house rather, making it a highly valuable venture with migs.

they are open to a 50-50 venture. the possibilities are endless. the eggs can hatch, to the exact genetics to which IAF wants. war clones tailored to meet IAF's requirements can be met. Netcentric warfare integration is one aspect drdo could venture with all inputs from russian integrations with nato weapon systems and communication can be done.. and all a good learning for us that is really needed.

with khan a/c all these would take a high poodling factor that the american tax payer can easily say no to exposing their core strategies to us. its a high risk for the khans to expose, and there could be a big hurdle they have to cross to beat migs.

if migs are learning the hard way, then they should not do a french for us. they have to learn from french mistakes. venturing with India can save quite a fantastic future for the winner.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AmitR » 26 Apr 2009 23:20

SaiK wrote:the thing that mig folks would allow us to integrate western stuffs in to russian platforms makes it nothing near all eggs in one basket. that thought should be erased for mig 35. if IAF wants, migs would allow us to use Kaveri-ng into mig35 or GE414 into it, for that matter. it can fire astra, ks172, meteor, python, court israeli 2052 or enhanced elta-drdo-2052 that LCA is going to house rather, making it a highly valuable venture with migs.......


I agree with that. The biggest factor against US planes is in regards to the amount of freedom that they will allow us wrt to their weapons platform. There is no doubt that US is at least a decade ahead of anyone else in terms of electronics and technology but it's not that we can build all the capabilities that US has by just purchasing a few aircrafts. ToT is a big factor but also the fact that IAF is nowhere near the advanced net-centric capability of USAF. Also the circus factor comes into picture.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Abhishek Banerjee » 26 Apr 2009 23:24

Rafale Fighter Jet still a Contender for Indian Air Force MRCA Deal says Dassault
French company Dassault has denied reports that it has been eliminated from the international race to sell 126 new combat aircraft to India. The long-drawn-out competition has been going on for nearly two years, and Russia's Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35MKI remains the favorite to win it.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 27 Apr 2009 00:08

SaiK wrote: I agree with that. The biggest factor against US planes is in regards to the amount of freedom that they will allow us wrt to their weapons platform. There is no doubt that US is at least a decade ahead of anyone else in terms of electronics and technology but it's not that we can build all the capabilities that US has by just purchasing a few aircrafts. ToT is a big factor but also the fact that IAF is nowhere near the advanced net-centric capability of USAF. Also the circus factor comes into picture.


Recent developments (in last 2-3 years), suggests that the US has changed its thinking towards India. This started with the nuke deal...The US is changing not because they want to, but rather because they have to. The rise of China (another discussion) has put the fear of god in them. If Obama shows a clear Indian tilt, e.g. with the end user agreement, then we should definitely go with US hardware. I suspect the US will tilt towards India, because they are desperate to control China. The US fascination with Pukes will end soon enough. But I digress...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jean_M » 27 Apr 2009 00:12

Rafale has been written off due to French negligence, they seemed to have blown off our people repeatedly when we turned to them for questions and secondly, they don't show the possibility to delivering AESA by 2013, since the French AF will start recieving it starting end 2012. Secondly the fact that Rafale falls short in weapons, costs and other tehnical requirements. Though a good aircraft Rafale has been sighted by countries like Japan, Singapore as being difficult to use and fly.


Nice :rotfl:

Please read my last three posts, you'll learn (whith sources provided...) that an F3+ flyaway price is 63m€ and that BE2 AESA is already in slow rate production and should be inducted in french Rafales early 2011. Also I don't understand why I see everywhere people stating that Rafale is expensive when I don't hear the same complaints about Eurofighter which is far more (gets worse and worse when lifecycle costs are included in the equation)!
I understand our weapons are expensive but I don't think it would be that costy to integrate AIM9-X/python/IRIS-T or their russian counterpart given the numer of planes to be bought.
Furthermore I don't see where Rafale falls short in weapons:
AA short/medium range: MICA
AA long range: METEOR
std air to ground: GBU 12/22/24
middle range AG: AASM 250/125 kg with INS/GPS/IR guidance (500/1000kg/penetrator versions and laser guidance to come)
long range heavy weapons : Apache and SCALP-EG
air to sea: AM39 Exocet
Damocles LDP
RECO NG RECCE pod
I'll spare you of ASMP...

Last but not least, Dassault is a world acknowledged expert in aircraft FBW controls (ask your M2K pilots) and rafale is said to have fully benefited of this expertise. So when I read something like that
been sighted by countries like Japan, Singapore as being difficult to use and fly.
, I ask for sources, please.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby keizer » 27 Apr 2009 01:31

ok Rafale, the Meteor isn't ready and costs a 1 million pounds per unit, AASM also costs over a 100k euros per unit, Apache and Scalp-EG cost way more compared to the JSOW/ER, SLAM/ER, Harpoon is cheaper and has a longer range than the Exocet, all these weapons cost much more and have lower ranges than comparable US weapons. BILL TERA BAP BHAREGA KYA?? The French have failed the tech. specs and the sooner you get that into ur head the better. Secondly your dreamng if you think you can get a RAfale for less than a 100 million bucks. Besides many of crucial parts in Rafale, EF, gripen NG come from the US, i dont know why all the bitching. All these aircraft are pretty much useless without US weapons. The infamous Spectra EW comes from the US . The fact is f-18IN, F-16IN are best suited and tailored to win during trails since none of the others are ready and can meet the 2013 deadline. none of the contenders offer extensive weapons flexibility and thus allowing our warfighter to use the right weapon for the right mission.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jean_M » 27 Apr 2009 02:32

The infamous Spectra EW comes from the US

'kay, no need to lose more time answerig you...

Troll spotted here ! FOX 3!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby arthuro » 27 Apr 2009 02:40

ok Rafale, the Meteor isn't ready and costs a 1 million pounds per unit, AASM also costs over a 100k euros per unit, Apache and Scalp-EG cost way more compared to the JSOW/ER, SLAM/ER, Harpoon is cheaper and has a longer range than the Exocet, all these weapons cost much more and have lower ranges than comparable US weapons. BILL TERA BAP BHAREGA KYA?? The French have failed the tech. specs and the sooner you get that into ur head the better. Secondly your dreamng if you think you can get a RAfale for less than a 100 million bucks. Besides many of crucial parts in Rafale, EF, gripen NG come from the US, i dont know why all the bitching. All these aircraft are pretty much useless without US weapons. The infamous Spectra EW comes from the US . The fact is f-18IN, F-16IN are best suited and tailored to win during trails since none of the others are ready and can meet the 2013 deadline. none of the contenders offer extensive weapons flexibility and thus allowing our warfighter to use the right weapon for the right mission.


Every thing you said is wrong. The rafale is 100% with 0 US components. The Spectra comes from France biggest black programme and from a long tradition of EW integrated suits in french military aircrafts.

Fighter Buy Tests Brazil's Will

Skeptics Recall Past Canceled Aircraft Programs
By Antonie Boessenkool And pierre tran
Published: 20 April 2009 Print | Email

RIO DE JANEIRO - A $2.2 billion tender for modern fighter aircraft is emblematic of Brazil's drive to acquire the military punch and technological base to match its ambitions as a regional actor looking to play a larger role on the world stage.

The FX-2 contest to buy a first batch of 36 multimission warplanes has narrowed to the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault Aviation Rafale and Saab Gripen NG. Lockheed Martin's F-16, the world's most popular export fighter, didn't make the cut.

The latest search for fighters comes after the FX-1 initiative fizzled several years ago without purchasing new aircraft.

Some skeptics at the Latin America Aerospace and Defense (LAAD) show suggested the FX-2 program may discover the same fate.

"The Brazilian Air Force has, easily, over the last 10, 12 years, been in a constant mode of modernizing their aircraft," said one U.S. defense executive and a long-time observer of the military business in Latin America. "During that period, there have been a number of new aircraft competitions. And each ... for one reason or another has tended to become delayed and then the program gets canceled."

Brazil also has a number of defense modernization programs ongoing - especially for the Navy, like new nuclear submarines - that are stressing resources. When combined with a worldwide economic crisis, it could create delays, the executive added.

"You have more systems competing for less dollars, or so it would seem in this kind of environment, which could lead to yet again a re-examination of the fighter competition," he said.

On the strategic front, Brazil lacks natural enemies and money is tight, a second U.S. executive with experience in Brazilian military aviation said.

Operationally, the Air Force last year took delivery of the last of 12 Mirage 2000 strike fighters bought from the French Air Force, and the Navy has ordered a modernization of a small fleet of A-4 Skyhawks for the Sao Paulo aircraft carrier.

Buying sophisticated fighters may be an overreach for what some see as the Air Force's main mission of policing its domestic territory and waters rather than flying combat missions.

On the other hand, some say the government will complete the competition. This time, Brazil has a national defense strategy drafted by Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, a former lawyer and judge, which calls for development through technology transfer and industrial cooperation. And crucially, there is money.

Brazil has the world's seventh-largest foreign currency reserves and recently went to the G-20 summit, uncharacteristically bringing a cash contribution to the International Monetary Fund's new stabilization fund.

Banks are willing to lend to the government, a French defense executive based here said. There are reserves of offshore oil, minerals, including iron ore, and that increasingly precious commodity, fresh water.

As the economic slowdown took hold, the government trimmed general spending, but Jobim pushed for lifting defense equipment funds to $5.6 billion this year from $3.6 billion last year. Its defense budget was $20.2 billion.

Protection of natural resources, including offshore oil, and surveillance of the vast Amazonian basin require planes with powerful capabilities of deterrence, the fighter proponents say.

"I think there are a number of differences this time around," said Bob Kemp, marketing and sales director at Gripen International. "The MoD says we're looking for programs, not products. In the previous FX, it was very much looking for an existing product that was on the market.

"I think the political will has changed. The commitment that was made to a submarine and helicopter program toward the end of last year tells me that there is a political will to really do something about investment in the defense industry and to grow the defense forces' capability in Brazil."

Brazil signed a deal Dec. 23 to buy four conventional attack submarines plus technical help for a nuclear-powered sub from DCNS and 50 EC725 helicopters from Eurocopter.


The Rivals

The oddity in the aircraft short list is the Next Generation Gripen, an improved version of the single-engine aircraft developed by Saab, while the F/A-18 and Rafale are twin-engine strike fighters in service respectively with the U.S. and French forces.

The Gripen offers a lower cost of ownership, its supporters argue, and Saab executives appealed to Brazil's desire to acquire technology, saying the company would make offset investments equal to the size of the contract Brazil plans to award this year.

Saab is trying to displace French and U.S. companies in its fighter strategy for Brazil, India and South Africa, Kemp said.

For nations not aligned with NATO, Saab's strategy is to "move the French, who dominated this market over the last 20, 30 years [with] the Mirage and Jaguar, with Gripen fighters," he said. "We believe that we have got a unique opportunity to succeed in these nations because they're looking for independence.

"And this is an area that we offer something quite unique because Sweden itself is an independent nation, and we recognize the value of controlling your own destiny." Kemp said, "If you want to do something different and control your own destiny, there is only one choice and that is Sweden."

Saab has completed 78 test flights with the NG Gripen, Kemp said. The firm has received nine requests for proposals or for information on the Gripen from countries worldwide.


U.S. Official Support

Boeing's offer, meanwhile, received backing from one of the top U.S. military commanders in Latin America.

"We in [U.S.] Southern Command fully endorse and fully recommend to our Brazilian colleagues that they select the Super Hornet," Lt. Gen. Glenn Spears, deputy commander of U.S. Southern Command, said at the LAAD show. "The U.S. government has assured and approved everything in this package for technology transfer to Brazil."

Bob Gower, Boeing's Super Hornet program director, pledged that Boeing's offer would enhance the Brazilian aircraft industry and improve other areas of the country's industry.

"This is about harnessing what's here and helping it to grow and flourish," he said.

The fighter program would provide multiple opportunities for Brazilian industry collaboration in military and commercial aircraft development, homeland security, air traffic management, space and satellite development, support services and advanced programs.

"For Brazil, it means gaining access to leading-edge technology," he said, including the Super Hornet's active electronically scanned array radar.

As of April 15, 389 Super Hornets had been delivered to the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, "all on time or ahead of schedule," Gower said. Because the aircraft is in full production, "this is a very low-risk program for Brazil."


Independence, Deterrence and Longevity

The French government and industry have rallied behind the messages of independence, deterrence and staying power in efforts to secure a sale of the Rafale.

Junior Defense Minister Jean-Marie Boeckel visited the LAAD exhibition to fly the French flag. He was flanked by the French ambassador, an Air Force flag officer and a senior official from the Délégation Générale pour l'Armement procurement office.

The Rafale International marketing team produced two glossy brochures for the Brazilian campaign - one for a general readership, pushing the themes of independence, deterrence and longevity, and another giving a technical overview of the Rafale's performance characteristics. Under the heading "The road to independence," French industry hopes to persuade the authorities that buying its plane ensures sovereignty over technology.

A local assembly of the plane, which requires extensive technology transfer, is possible, a Dassault executive said. Plus, the Rafale's 100 percent French content means no U.S. approvals are needed for technology transfer, the executive added.

French industry also is confident it can meet Brazil's requirement for 100 percent industrial offset "without major difficulty," he said.

The deterrence power is offered in what the French team sees as Rafale's technological superiority, with two engines giving a safety margin and equipment designed for long-range detection, interception and strike, data fusion and interoperability.

French industry seeks to convince Brazilian officials its companies are solid and can assure support for the 25- to 30-year life of the Rafale.

A rallying of ministerial and industry efforts behind the Rafale campaign suggests lessons have been learned from the failure to sell the aircraft to Morocco because of a lack of coordination among the various actors. Rabat bought the Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter.

For Brazil, the new fighter buy is all about nation-building.

"The FX-2 program has a basic requirement: technology transfer from the winner company," Jobim said. "A good fighter alone is not enough; we need a good fighter with technologies that are relevant for the country." ■


Christopher P. Cavas contributed to this report.



The RBE2 AESA is already in production and will be delivered to Dassault in less than one year from now...And it is available for trials...Again none of what you said is true.


NEUILLY, France: Thales announced today that its RBE2 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar has successfully completed a new series of tests on the Rafale at the Cazaux flight test centre in Southwest France from February to March.

These tests, carried out jointly by Thales and the French defence procurement agency (DGA), provided functional validation of the radar’s operating modes.

This milestone marks the latest step towards qualifying the RBE2 AESA radars this year in readiness for delivery of the first two units to Dassault Aviation during the first quarter of 2010. The radars will be installed on the aircraft in 2011 for delivery to the French Air Force early in 2012.

The successful tests are the latest in a long line of key milestones. Thales began developing an AESA radar demonstrator in the 1990s and conducted exploratory tests at the flight test centre in 2002 and 2003 to refine the concept. In 2004, the French defence procurement agency DGA backed the project with a contract to develop a prototype of an operational active-module radar.

At the end of 2006, Thales completed its first active phased array, comprising some 1,000 gallium-arsenide T/R modules manufactured by European firm United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS).

The active phased array, which replaces the passive array in the RBE2 currently operating on the Rafale, offers many advantages:

-range extended by over 50% for future compatibility with new weapon systems like Meteor;

-higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no array overhaul required for 10 years)

-waveform agility for high-resolution synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery in air-to-ground mode and better resistance to jamming.

Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, Senior Vice President in charge of Thales’s Aerospace Solutions for Governments Sector, commented on the achievement of this new milestone: “The success of this latest series of tests on the RBE2 AESA radar consolidates Thales’s European leadership position. Moreover, it will help to affirm the Rafale’s technological superiority as the omnirole aircraft performs flight demonstrations for potential export customers, confirming its excellent performance as it has recently in Switzerland and the United Arab Emirates.”

Thales is a leading international electronics and systems group, addressing Defence, Aerospace and Security markets worldwide. The Group’s civil and military businesses develop in parallel and share a common base of technologies to serve a single objective: the security of people, property and nations.

Thales’s leading-edge technology is supported by 22,500 R&D engineers who offer a capability unmatched in Europe to develop and deploy field-proven mission-critical information systems. The Group builds its growth on its unique multi-domestic strategy based on trusted partnerships with national customers and market players, while leveraging its global expertise to support local technology and industrial development. Thales employs 68,000 people in 50 countries with 2008 revenues of EUR 12.7

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JaiS » 27 Apr 2009 03:39

keizer,

If you have a point, then find a more civilized way of putting it out for discussion. Secondly, it would be good if you could make your posts more factual. I am referring to the post where you confidently claim the dependency of Rafale + Spectra on the US Mil-Ind-Complex, which reflects very poorly on your knowledge of other MRCA contenders. Please get your act in line.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby MarcH » 27 Apr 2009 08:16

One question regarding the network capabilities of the US fighters: With whoom do they communicate ? Isn't one part of the customization for India the indigenous datalink ?
Something more about the US data links. Which additional capability do they offer over the MIDS Link 16 modules also present in the Gripen, Rafale and Typhoon ?
I'm so far only aware of the Gripens additional TILDS datalink and the Scarabé (spelling ?) of the Rafale.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 27 Apr 2009 11:18

Their Datalinks will probably be ditched for the IAF datalink in development. IAF ODL (Operational Data Link) will allow all ground and air assets to communicate with each other.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby keizer » 27 Apr 2009 11:25

firstly, dont tell me about what i do or dont know, you couldn't possibly know more than me

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... ult_Rafale

in the link below take a good look at all Rafale supplers for key components, dont bother repliying coz i know who are its suppliers, so next time you want to counter me please make a good effort, coz Spectra is made in Thales North America which uses US employees in a US subsidiary which makes its subject to US law and hence would require US congress to clear such things for export. Many of Rafale's key coatings also come from the US.

Orelube Corporation Synthetic Lubricants: Boelube
Eaton Aerospace Phelps Valve Pumps, valves, level sensors, pressure switches, refuel/defuel manifolds, and couplings
Goodrich Sensors & Integrated Systems Sensors/Transducers: Pitot probe; ice detectors; air data total air temperature sensors
Ducommun Technologies, Inc. Warning Systems/Equipment: Master caution and warning assemblies
Thales North America Inc. Electronic Warfare Systems: SPECTRA integrated electronic warfare system operating in electromagnetic, laser and infra-red domains

Many of the things i know i simply can't even share with you coz most of my info is confidential and i have access to a lot of such info. I have a insider info coz hey i am an insider, i dont bull-shit.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 27 Apr 2009 11:42

firstly, dont tell me about what i do or dont know, you couldn't possibly know more than me

:roll:

if you have something valuable to add, do it in a civil tone and language.
secondly, if you claim to have inside info, we only have your word for it since you are unable to prove any of it. in that case it would be better to present your point without bluster.

if you actually are who you claim, it will be evident with time, no need to tom-tom your secret credentials, they mean zilch here.

lastly, rude comments will not be tolerated here, even if you are edelstenne himself.
clean up your act or your presence here will be counted in days.
Rahul.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby keizer » 27 Apr 2009 12:28

obviously the French make us believe that Rafale is independent, fact is none of it is true. secondly RBE-2 is ready for delivery to Dassault by next year and will be inducted in french AF by 2012, now who cares when its available for the manufacturer, it matters when its available to our airforces unless u think HAL is going to use it in battle. now, the fact is even if Rafale is tested, it wont have its AESA to show-off neither does it have really good weapons that offer superior range at low cost. If RBE-2 isn't ready for the end-user by 2013, Rafale has no chance. It is the most rigid of all the platforms, even the Gripen NG has more weapons flexibility. The cost of 100 million i say also includes weapons, training and guarantees. You think the JAps rejected it coz its political, ah no, it was rejected coz the Japs found it hard to use. If Rafale was indeed as good as it we all think it is, they would have ordered it instead of being interested in the EF which by the way is much more expensive. Shit even i know Rafale is gr8 aircraft and i dont deny it but its rigid and simply doesn't offer the flexibility the others do. I am pretty sure it is a amazing aircraft to fly and fight with but if this aircraft is expensive to use during wars, its a major disadvantage, its the reason why teens have often pummeled the Rafale during competitive trails. The only decent anti tank missile it can fire is also the US Maverick. Without the Paveway, JDAM, Harpoon, HARM, Aim-120 C-7, the Rafale is useless. coz all its indigenious weapons cost nearly twice as much in euros. just for comparisons sakes let us see;


Meteor; +1 million pounds per unit
Aim-120 D: $+-700,000 per unit

AASM: cost 80,000 to 110000 euros per unit
JDAM: cost $35,000 to 70,000 per unit

JSOW: (120km) $280,000 to 720,000 depends on variant, JSOW-C is exclusive for moving marine targets
Apache:(100km+) 1.6 million euros anti runway missile

Scalp-EG:(250km) 800,000 euros a unit
SLAM-ER:(270km+) $720,000 per unit and can also hit moving targets

Exocet: 70-180km VS Harpoon: 90 km to 315 km, Harpoon cheaper and longer range, shares commonaity with SLAM missiles. now Rafale can fire HARM, the SH can fire AAGRM which is even better coz it can hit radars that have been shut down as well. now ALARM missiles have loiter time which is not necessary since AAGRM will hit the same target out to roughly the same range without any waste of time.

now everytime we have drop a 800,000 euro anti runway to destroy what costed the PAkis half that to build is not worth it. With SH we can use $20,000 SDB's to pummel half of PAki assets wihtout any problems and cost over-runs. cash is king, more so during wars. Now with weapons like JDAM-ER, JSOW-ER, LJDAM(laser/gps guided bomb), SLAM-ER, AAGRM, SDB, any war would be cheaper and will also be more effective. Besides weapons like Apache, Taurus, ALARM, Skyflash, Mica, Magic, Popeye-2, ASL-30 missiles are readily be dropped from the f-16IN, not to mention its the only aircraft that could drop the infamous Delilah which we have acquired, it is also the only aircraft that can readily be used with Python-5 and its is readily available for Israeli tweaking. Either way even if we dont trust the US we know we trust the Issies.

The teens have an advantage and as long as they meet all the requirements mentioned in the RFP, they have a very good chance of winning. If they dont meet our demands on EUVA, tot etc. we'll fall back to our default mig-35 option without any problem.

My personal reservation is that we go for the EF tranche 3 because i believe its the ideal and best, but in such competitve times it becomes very hard to ignore the teens who have years of combat proven edge with much more evolved avionics, tactics and weapons.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby keizer » 27 Apr 2009 12:34

and Rahul don't threaten me, look what happened to IDF when they did threaten me...i am not ur av. joe, your threats mean zilch to me.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 27 Apr 2009 12:35

The fact is f-18IN, F-16IN are best suited and tailored to win during trails since none of the others are ready and can meet the 2013 deadline. none of the contenders offer extensive weapons flexibility and thus allowing our warfighter to use the right weapon for the right mission.

Uhh. no they actually are not. From a current operator stand point the Gripen is probably the best suited for the trials. It operates in a multitude of climates hot/tropical (thailand), arid/desert (south africa) cold/tundra (sweden) the only place it hasn't operated is mountainous terrains. You can't know how the Super Hornet would perform in the different conditions. The F-16 has been operating in all kinds of climates so it wouldn't have a lot of problems in the trials. All of the contenders can meet the deadline of 2013 (most likely 1st sq delivered 36 months after contract is signed) otherwise why would you waste $ competing in a competition you couldn't fulfill. Again your wrong the Gripen offers a lot of weapons flexibility a lot more than any US jet would. Also the EF has said it doesn't have a problem with India integrating its indigenous weapons on it (whether they would help India in the integration, they wouldn't say). What I am actually looking forward for the trials is to see the Rafale's performance (are they really taking the Rafales out of Afghanistan?) and the EF strike capabilities (hopefully it will shut people up about how it lags behind all the others in the A2G role).
The cost of 100 million i say also includes weapons, training and guarantees. You think the JAps rejected it coz its political, ah no, it was rejected coz the Japs found it hard to use.

Give me a link that shows japan was ever interested in the Rafale! They always wanted the F-22 if not that then the EF which they have shown interest but most likely won't purchase. They should honestly fund their 5-gen stealth fighter which looks sick!! from the pictures online. Also french weapons cost a lot more because they usually are being produced in such large numbers as US weapons which arm half the world. If france was arming the other half of the world the weapon prices would be comparable.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 27 Apr 2009 12:51

keizer wrote:and Rahul don't threaten me, look what happened to IDF when they did threaten me...i am not ur av. joe, your threats mean zilch to me.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

I do happen to know what transpired at IDF.
threats or not, put a toe across the line of polite behaviour and you are out of here.
nothing personal, the forum has to be kept a healthy place for discussions and not a beauty pageant of narcissist secret agents with overblown egos.
BTW, off-topic posts (like the one I quoted) do count as infractions.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nitinr » 27 Apr 2009 13:05

One thing often repeated for US palnes is their fabulous netcentricity. It might be so in case of US which have been at it for ages. But in case of India even if the hardware bought from US supports it, will India be able to make full use of this netcentricity. Isnt that India is still some time away from it. So why gloss over something that cannot be used as and when and if US planes are bought. Its just like having a giga bit ethernt cards in the PC's but backbone being 100 Mbps.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby keizer » 27 Apr 2009 14:02

well the F-18 SH goes everywhere the Carrier group goes and Carrier groups circle all around the world and they do pass thru very cold waters often. secondly the f-18 will perform flawlessly in all conditions, it trains often in Alaska which isn't really a tropical zone you see. Yeah Gripen offers the same kind of weapons flexibility because half of the weapons it fires is US made and it doesn;t even fire half of the really advanced long range US weapons that the SH and Falcon fire on a daily basis.

Gripen Armament
1 × 27 mm Mauser BK-27 cannon 120 rounds
6 × Rb.74 (AIM-9) or Rb 98 (IRIS-T)
6 × Rb.99 (AIM-120) or MICA
4 x Rb.71 (Skyflash) or Meteor
4 x Rb.75
2 x KEPD.350
4 x GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided bomb
4 x rocket pods 13.5 cm rockets
2 x Rbs.15F anti-ship missile
2 x Bk.90 cluster bomb
8 x Mark 82 bombs
1 x ALQ-TLS ECM pod
JDAM/ER
SDB
Asraam
Derby/Python-5
SPice
Lizard smart bomb
Brimstone

F-18IN/F-16IN

JSOW/ER (both)
SLAM/ER (both)
JASSM (f-18IN) /ER (f-16IN)
AAGRM (both)
SDB (both)
JDAM/ER (both)
Aim-9x (both)
Aim-120D (both)
Asraam (both)
Iris-T (both)
Maverick (both)
Harpoon (both)
Rockeye (both)
CBU-97 sfw (both)
CBU-107 SFW (both)
All PAveway series (both)
Taurus missile (f-18IN)
Skyflash (f-16IN)
Popeye-2 (f-16IN)
Mica (f-16IN)
Magic (f-16IN)
Python-4/5/Derby (f-16IN)
ASL-30 (f-16IN)
Spice (f-16IN)
Delilah (f-16IN)
MSOV (f-16IN)
Havelite (f-16IN)

The fact is F-16IN is the most weapon flexible of the all contenders and deploys a whole range of Issy cutting edge weapons. now Gripen can drop some of them but they haven't been integrated which takes time and is a waste. F-18IN deploy longer range weapons than the Gripen which could have more weapons choices but sucks because the SH has all these deployed on it already. And many of its weapons including SLAM-ER can now hit moving targets to over 560km away, which frankly no other can do, shit the f-16IN can drop a JASSM-ER to 960km away. You wanna compare weapons i got all day. many weapons like SDB have not been tested on the Gripen yet. now the fact that the F-16 can deploy a 960km JASSM-ER means it can easily fire our very own home made Nirbhay which also has a similar range.

Well no one buys french weapons coz they suck and cost more, besides they are French, they suck at business and they cant sell more weapons so that price per unit goes down. can't expect to have a low price per unit when a missile is made in country where the poeple are constantly protesting to cut down the working week from 38 to hrs 32 hrs. The real fact is any thing being manufactured in the EU has no future coz they are socialist pussies with no sense of being competitive and their costs of doing so are enormous in the modern cash strapped world, sure the US has a lot of problems as well but it knows how to get out of them, while EU like always will look to US for direction. The only reason why EU exists is because of the US nukes based all across EU. When we need groceries we go to the grocers, when we need weapons we need to go to the warmongers, there is no bigger warmonger than the US. The EU contenders talk about allowing our own weapons on their aircraft, well they haven't been tested with half the better weapons out there. All this testing and integration will waste our time, the fact remains we need a capable aircraft by 2012/13. If we still have to spend 2 to 3 years integrating all these avionics and weapons, we might as well order the f-35 which on any day outperforms all the others. Atleast the f-35 can be used by Army, Navy and AF.

If the deadline is important only the f-16IN and F-18IN are ready for delivery during that time frame, if delivery deadlines aren't importanat we might as well order the f-35 and get it over with. If we order 3 F-35s now for testing, we can have them by 2011, after testing till 2012, we place an order, we start recieving them starting 2014 onwards. It always was the best option. but the fact that we couldn;t wait for the F-35 means that we need something latest by 2013, only the f-16IN/F-18IN will be ready by that time.

Obviously the reason we bought P-8, Phalcon is because we can network it with all our aircraft. now yet again the Phalcon has a lot of US made critical parts, yet none seems to say anything about it. Offcourse the f-18IN and F-16IN can work with all our aircraft. all this bitching for no reason, our forces know that we need to be careful with US, yet we seemed to have sent in an RFP anyways, because we know we can deal with them and we know we now have enormous leverage with US and they have no option but to give in to our demands.

The deal is meant to fair and the most ideal choice will win and i for one have enormous faith in our forces. i know for fact that we will get exactly what we want and the way we want it. I will be happy with any aircraft we buy, we can buy 200 P-51 mustages or Spitfires for all i care because i know that IAF will make the right choice and no matter which aircraft, i can count on our pilot to shoot down a Chinki su-30 or Puki mirage or Falcon on any given day or circumstance.

i may sound like a salesman for US makers but honestly i am not. like i said before the EF tranche 3 is my fav. but i am also realistic and realistically i dont see any other aircraft meeting our deadline for 2013. no matter whom we buy from, we will negotiate to have complete freedom and autonomy in useage of the equipment and weapons. You underestimate that this might as well be the largest single deals to have come in many years and all the competitors will try very hard to make sure they win. But this deal will go to one country and one nation vendor, for weapons and platforms, the only contenders that fall in this category are the mig-35, F-16IN and F-18IN since none of the others source their parts indigenously. All the others represent a massive logistical nightmare for acquistion of weapons and parts from suppliers. This geographic disparity will easily result in cost over-runs in the EF, Rafale and Gripen and this down turn such costs will simply be avoided. Actually we can go for ELTA-2052 radar, with Issy EW suite and other Issy avionics with the F-16IN with both Issy and US weapons, we wont have any problems with full-tot at all.
Last edited by keizer on 27 Apr 2009 14:16, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 27 Apr 2009 14:02

netcentric to DC! :twisted: Route: Airborne-Satellite-Ground-EWAC system.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Tanaji » 27 Apr 2009 14:35

Some questions:

And many of its weapons including SLAM-ER can now hit moving targets to over 560km away, which frankly no other can do, shit the f-16IN can drop a JASSM-ER to 960km away.


Why doesnt this not violate MTCR? If it does and we cant use the max range, the advantage doesnt exist

The US has strict end user monitoring requirements. How do you propose IAF get around it? They did not relax it for Jalashwa, am not sure what the status is for P8I

What is your reference for the statement
LM has offered F-16s with source codes and the f-18IN comes with source codes as well.

IF UK wasnt allowed the codes for the F35, why do you think a non NATO country will be allowed that? Past experience of US wrt the Tejas development has not been encouraging.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby arthuro » 27 Apr 2009 14:41

keizer you don't know what you are talking about...I worked for one of the rafale suplier at toulouse (technofan, a safran Susbidiary) which make engine valves so I am certainly way better informed on the rafale programme than you ! Again everything you said is wrong, there is no US content in the rafale which make it a 100% independent solution. So the argument of "confidential" stuff doesn't work with me...You are just a troll.

As for armements they are often more expensive but also have specific advantage : an AASM is way more performant than a JDAM for instance as it can engage up to 6 targets at stand off distance from high AND low altitude with over the shoulder firing possibilities.

The mica IR as the only western IR bvr missile can bring specific advantages against LO platform or during a passive interception; In addition a salvo mica IR and EM would be very difficult to jam and would result in higher probability of kill. And the Mica has a higher end game lethality than the Amram. the how sure are you about the meteor price ? and I prefer to fire 1 expensive missile and win than loose an aircraft.

The SCALP is way bigger than the JASSM or slam-ER. the military oridinance is much bigger also.

As for airframe comparaison, a rafale bring as much punch as a SH but with almost 5 tones less of airframe and superior supersonic performances and superior maneuvrability. Have you ever read the rafaleM US navy AFM report about the exchange on the roosvelt ? And that was US navy pilots who aknowledged rafale's strenghts after DACT...

The F16 is lighter and cheaper but doesn't fall in the same category
Last edited by arthuro on 27 Apr 2009 14:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Dileep » 27 Apr 2009 14:46

Full and complete technology transfer == torque spec for every screw and shear spec for every rivet :twisted:

Sensor fusion within the plane is great. Within the flight package is good. What about further backward? How would you integrate with the existing systems? Unless you are going to replace everything with the uber gizmos, what use is the net centricity of the plane? First let us exchange target vectors over a 2.4KBPS link between planes within earshot of the falcon. Sending real time video of a muj soiling his shalwar can wait.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby arthuro » 27 Apr 2009 14:48

and french hardware has a good reputatio in terms of servicability;

From an RAF personel in an exchange with the AdA

Lossie23,

I was lucky enough to do an exchange tour with the French Air Force a while back. It's a very different environment to the RAF and the quality of their crewroom banter leaves a lot to be desired - needless to say, they tell similar harmless anti-British jokes based on national stereotypes - no offence meant, none taken but the culture of p*ss-taking doesn't exist in the same way as it does in the RAF.

The kit was by and large excellent. The Mirage 2000C is a superb aircraft: easy to fly, extremely reliable (that was one of the biggest differences I noted coming from an F-4 background) and it had a highly effective built-in ECM suite - no draggy pods on pylons, now there's a thought. The guys who operated it were certainly comparable with their NATO counterparts and more than held their own on the ACMI, on ops and elsewhere.

The engineers were good too and were capable of deploying the squadron overseas remarkably quickly - on a det in Saudi during the 1990s we had 40 troops looking after 8 aircraft whereas our neighbours on the ramp, an RAF GR1 outfit, had 240 people looking after 6 aircraft.

So from personal experience and as one who's all for non-PC banter at every opportunity, I'd say, "Welcome aboard, Messieurs les Grenouilles."




Spheroid,

I agree that it seems a lot of people per aircraft and I admit that it was a long time ago, but those were the numbers I was given by one of their SNCOs. There may've been a misunderstanding in that he included all the people on the GR1 det not just the engineers, but what I didn't mention in the earlier post - in the interests of brevity - was that during the same det there was a visit from some fairly highly-paid RAF help (one-star ish I seem to recall) who I hosted when he visited our Mirage 2000 unit. He point-blank refused to believe that we could maintain an operational capability with so few engineers for 8 aircraft.

Even allowing for rapidly-approaching senility, I don't think those numbers were too far adrift, but whether I'm right or not (and I'll be the first to put my hand up if I'm talking carp) the point I'm trying to make is that the French are very good at going to an operational theatre in double-quick time, with a small number of bods and being up and running in no time flat. They've had a lot of practice in places like Chad and they seem to have learned the lesson that reliability is a highly effective force-multiplier.


http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/ ... ato-3.html

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby keizer » 27 Apr 2009 15:12

well Arthuro, i own over 2 million class -A shares at Dassault which at today's value is easily over 50 million euros , on any given day i have more info than you could ever dream to know. so no use responding to u. you work for Technofan, no probs. good for you, things i know are honestly far beyond your pay grade. by the way take a look at the list of suppliers, you work for a supplier, your just part of the supply chain and technofan is in my list of suppliers but there are US suppliers as well.
Either way i have proof that US companies are among the list of suppliers. so yet again arthuro come back to me when you have legimate info or something to say that i dont know. btw in this business there isn't much i dont know, i thrive on the defence inductry and have made and continue to make enormous amounts of money from it. so dont shite me bro. its no use.

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... ult_Rafale

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby keizer » 27 Apr 2009 15:30

furthermore arthuro i don't doubt or say anything about Rafale's aerodynamic performance, its better than F-16, F-18 on any given day. but the matter is trade offs, for the higher price you pay for the Rafale, you still have to buy a lot of expensive weapons. JDAM-ER is better than AASM which can hit targets just as far away at a much lower price, sometimes Arthuro you sound like moron, the JDAM-ER is also capable of multiple releases, US invented multiple releases. The fact comes in when enemies like the Chinks and Pakis are high threat environments and in such areas, the cheaper your weapons, the better coz we'll have a lot of threats to deal with, we dont really have a lot of money for such lavish spending bro. Plus the old Aim Sparrow and Aim-120A missiles have so many confirmed hits and kills, matter of fact there is no AAM that compares to its already proven record against, high speed threats like mig-25, mig-29, and others. now you really believe that Aim-120D with ranges over 200km, even if fired at 140km from an SH or Falcon will miss its target??? With hit rates over 90%, 9 out 10 aircraft that the SH fires upon are dead. besides the f-18IN can deploy 10 AAM while the Rafale deploy 8. In todays wars BVR missiles will ensure long range kills. thats the nature of today's A2A combat. Meteor lacks the range and is simply to expensive. besides it wont be ready before 2015, by that time we'll have our own Astra-2 longer range version of home made AAM.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sarang » 27 Apr 2009 15:38

This is too much
keizer wrote:well Arthuro, i own over 2 million class -A shares at Dassault which at today's value is easily over 50 million euros , on any given day i have more info than you could ever dream to know. so no use responding to u. you work for Technofan, no probs. good for you, things i know are honestly far beyond your pay grade. by the way take a look at the list of suppliers, you work for a supplier, your just part of the supply chain and technofan is in my list of suppliers but there are US suppliers as well.
Either way i have proof that US companies are among the list of suppliers. so yet again arthuro come back to me when you have legimate info or something to say that i dont know. btw in this business there isn't much i dont know, i thrive on the defence inductry and have made and continue to make enormous amounts of money from it. so dont shite me bro. its no use.

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... ult_Rafale


I can understand that you may be president of united states having n numbers classified and super-duper classified informations. but this is not the way one should talk to forum colleagues. May be he/she knows less than you do; but this is not the way to react.

First time I come across such a shameless dirty mouthed person on this forum.

You are more filthy than any politician on our soil.

This is the limit.

Admins please do something about this Mooh ka mujor aur patanahi kahan ka kamjor.

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby arthuro » 27 Apr 2009 15:56

When I am working for technofan it is as an auditor and I am auditing safran's group as well in Paris So i have a transversal view of the activity...and it happens that my firm Mazars, is also auditing... Guess what ! Dassault aviation ! :lol: And I know personnaly the senior managers as well as the partners responsible for certifying dassault's accounts as they are working in the same business unit (aeronautic industry) as me...So stop saying things you don't know and stop lying please...Your link is just worthless. And show some respect please, because you certainly lack a good education. Having a supperority complex because of "alleged" :roll: revenues talks long about your values and education...

And if you were a shareholder (which I don't believe) then my colleagues are certifying the info which is given to you and there is nothing confidential about that, the classified info about technical datas is of course not issued to every sharehoders exept the french state which holds a big part of the capital and (I am even not sure) Serge Dassault which is also member of the french Senate ... So the fact that you are pretending to detain classified info (especially as a non national!!) is a big, big joke and clearly means that you are a liar and a troll !

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
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Location: Chennai

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 27 Apr 2009 15:59

keizer & arthuro, ***warning*** desist from further arguments on irrelevant things. Not tolerated.

SuKan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 23
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SuKan » 27 Apr 2009 16:19

@ keizer,

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.

by

Adolf Hitler.

keizer
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Apr 2009 12:53

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby keizer » 27 Apr 2009 16:45

well i ain't really educated, i agree, i dont need to be educated, coz i got everything i need and like always i am also used to people who dont have much, talking about how filthy a person who has got everything is. so get in line.

I for one don't doubt the Rafales ability to fight, dont get me wrong on that part, if it can meet the 2013 deadline by all means go for it, but yet again i doubt that. besides why spend so much time and money integrating weapons and avionics that are available with the US contenders in the first place. the fact remains i know the value of money, i worked hard for it, now in this era of careful spending, we have to be careful while spending so much on a certain product. India has a lot more to do than just upgrade its military. moreover, we have others like su-30mki, upgraded mig-29smts, mirages etc. to deal with many sophiticated aerial threats, what we need a low cost heavy precision ground hitter and the F-16IN/F-18IN are best suited for those roles. i for one hope Rafale goes to trails with IAF coz if it wins, well my share value will increase. moreover, i am pretty sure many of you will be sore and pissed off if the F-16IN or F-18IN win, well i can live with Rafale, EF, Gripen NG or mig-35 winning. I just know that it will be easier and cheaper for us to go for the f-16IN/F-18IN because i trust our pilots can deal with any kind of threat in anyone of the contenders. F-16IN/F-18IN just fit right in with our existing fleet and provide complementary roles.

well provide some proof as to US having no suppliers on the Rafale, without proof, dont expect me to believe. i gave u a good link which says that indeed many parts come from the US and all u could give me was claims, nice but doesn't prove anything, show me something that says US has no suppliers on the Rafale and i will believe.

Ardeshir
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Ardeshir » 27 Apr 2009 18:09

So an Indian who owns 2 Million shares (1.7%) of Dassault (117,604,553 is total number of shares). Amazing, to say the least. Even Charles Edelstenne (Founder of Dassault) and his family own 7,658,122 (6.51%). In other words, your stake in Dassault is larger than the stake owned by employees other than Edelstenne (0.02%) and also is very close to the stake held by one of the largest institutional investors (Orbis). (Src: http://www.3ds.com/fileadmin/COMPANY/FI ... _04_01.pdf)

Very believable indeed. :-?

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 27 Apr 2009 18:14

the secret is this:

khan sanction does not work really for France, China* and Russia, cause they mean our agreements more seriously than mr. hydes and jackals.

hence, its ok strategically to obtain weapons from russia, france and countries who normally don't poodle with khan strategies.

Of course, all these would change if we have an agreement like in the indo-us, about what they can do and what they can't. Nevertheless, there is always a risk in getting weapon systems even from russia or france for that matter, as long as we are totally making it from scratch in desh [100% impossible for now].

hence, a little amount of poodle factor will be there..and this is where our babooze have realized, that a 100% of that little bit poodling can be done direct with mr. khan.

its ok! /but we have to put as much care as possible to be as independent as possible within the realm of strategic and defence needs satisfying our requirements. [so a little bit of poodling will be there ->send our men to be with nato etc - btw, didn't we do this during WW2?/{logic is just to prove if we relate our past, then we have to relate other aspects as well}.]

India is becoming a great power.. hence, we have to look at reverse-poodling factor [rpf] now
---
*just an argument


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