MRCA News and Discussion

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Nikhil T
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 23 May 2009 22:19

Nitesh wrote:http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSDEL32755420090522

"All the paperwork is over and a technical evaluation report on the fighters has been placed with the ministry," defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said.

"Security concerns are a top priority of the government and things should start rolling once the new defence minister takes charge," he added.


From MMRCA's point of view, its really good that AK Anthony is returning back to the MoD. This means continuity of the process. Lets hope he speeds the process up. I'm sure there are a bunch of procurement files waiting for him to clear since he couldn't do so in the elections frenzy and because of the code of conduct.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Yogesh » 23 May 2009 22:30

Nikhil T wrote:
Nitesh wrote:
From MMRCA's point of view, its really good that AK Anthony is returning back to the MoD. This means continuity of the process. Lets hope he speeds the process up. I'm sure there are a bunch of procurement files waiting for him to clear since he couldn't do so in the elections frenzy and because of the code of conduct.


Yeah it should be :evil: & lets hope there is full stop of speculations among Brfites too asap ! :wink:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 24 May 2009 03:26

saptarishi wrote::lol: if the super hornet gets the new engine within the mmrca timeline,then i am all for super hornet ,but will the new engine be available for flight evaluations slated to start later this year,i mean the rfp specifies that the offerings should be there before the evaluations start. GE has started to develop the new engines,,will the development finish within 2-3 years so that mmrca timeline is met.


Genuine concern.

AWST reports that the 20% increase - although funded by USN - has one eye firmly on the Indian MRCA.

AWST also has a report on the Rafale.

Seems like most of the goodies - in one package - will only come around 2012 - for all participants.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 24 May 2009 09:41

Wouldnt more thrust mean fuel consumption ?

More thrust is not necessarily good it has to optimium thrust so that fuel comsumption is optimised

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Drevin » 24 May 2009 16:08

MRCA ~ $ 10+ billion - USA
Krivaks, Amurs, Pakfa, MRMPA naval fulcrums - Russia ($ 15 billion)
M2k upgrade, P-17A (Lafayette class) - France ($ 6 billion)
EJ-200 engines for LCA (E.U.) ($ 1.5 billion)
Jag engine upgrade - Rolls Royce (UK). ( $ 500 mill)
Arty 155 guns, radars, missile jvs - Israel ($ 4 billion)


nice post. Been wanting to do sumthin like this but never got around to it!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 24 May 2009 19:05

Austin wrote:Wouldnt more thrust mean fuel consumption ?

More thrust is not necessarily good it has to optimium thrust so that fuel comsumption is optimised


I am unable to get to the AWST article on the web, but, they have two efforts going one of them is higher thrust and the other is reduced duel consumption. Right now they seem to be two different, separate efforts.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 24 May 2009 23:50




continued..
The writing is on the dilli wall now.

http://deccanherald.com/content/4236/ch ... n-iaf.html

India has also been pursuing closer relations with the United States, something that worries China.

Major : We know very little about the actual capabilities of China, their combat edge or how professional their military is," "They are certainly a greater threat."

{karat gone! mms strung with manio ji is boeing stronger now, with a seeming mandate for this happen}

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 25 May 2009 00:15



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
this time ddmites are over hyping the capabilities of Indian babus,specially the babu at rajbhavan

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 25 May 2009 00:24


SaiK
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 May 2009 01:29

I think the dorks in the ddm are only dorks in presenting the events or prescribe to those dorkiness or well paid to do so aspects. Bottom line facts are important that we are struggling to get at.. more or less, there exists considerable obfuscations at various levels of reporting the actual information starting from the source, to the public.

And, that is btw, leads to many a downfall to various bidders by losing interest and to a certain extent exposing the loopholes and an opportunity to plug them as well. The clever wins, and those who minimize loses due to media dorkness.
------

shall we call it advantage ef2k for this?
http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10831

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 May 2009 21:54

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10830
The sources said efforts were on to prepare a document that could be cleared by the government, which can then be appended to any procurement agreement instead of negotiating it afresh each time a purchase is made.

the Ministry is keen to ensure that the requirement under U.S. laws is kept to the bare minimum.

..In this case, instead of permitting Americans to visit Indian bases where these jets were positioned, New Delhi suggested that the equipment could be taken off these jets and be made available for inspection in the Capital. This done both parties went home satisfied of having kept to their end of the agreement, the sources said.

As per the U.S. laws, all foreign military sales are guided by the Golden Sentry programme that is governed by its Department of Defence while the Blue Lantern programme is governed by the Department of State.

This is to ensure that the product sold to a country is being used for the stated purpose.


So, just in case, how are these inspectors going to inspect 126 MRCAs ? This is just insane. Also, lets say we have a war.. and these inspectors say, we need to inspect 126 mrcas? would the airfoce agree to such inspection during strategic times or just go on to bomb the enemy out?

don't they just see a doctrine clash here.. it needs much more than venue for inspections. Furthermore, there should clause to say, about these timings., and inspectors can't inspect at their command and when they feel like.

more engagements, and more details of such documents are needed and must be exposed to public.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby KrishG » 25 May 2009 22:11

SaiK wrote:
http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10830
The sources said efforts were on to prepare a document that could be cleared by the government, which can then be appended to any procurement agreement instead of negotiating it afresh each time a purchase is made.

the Ministry is keen to ensure that the requirement under U.S. laws is kept to the bare minimum.

..In this case, instead of permitting Americans to visit Indian bases where these jets were positioned, New Delhi suggested that the equipment could be taken off these jets and be made available for inspection in the Capital. This done both parties went home satisfied of having kept to their end of the agreement, the sources said.

As per the U.S. laws, all foreign military sales are guided by the Golden Sentry programme that is governed by its Department of Defence while the Blue Lantern programme is governed by the Department of State.

This is to ensure that the product sold to a country is being used for the stated purpose.


So, just in case, how are these inspectors going to inspect 126 MRCAs ? This is just insane. Also, lets say we have a war.. and these inspectors say, we need to inspect 126 mrcas? would the airfoce agree to such inspection during strategic times or just go on to bomb the enemy out?

don't they just see a doctrine clash here.. it needs much more than venue for inspections. Furthermore, there should clause to say, about these timings., and inspectors can't inspect at their command and when they feel like.

more engagements, and more details of such documents are needed and must be exposed to public.


Well, that's it! LM and Boeing must be kicked out of the deal. They should be reminded that India is not a part of American Thumb-suckers Treaty Organization.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Baljeet » 25 May 2009 22:32

Saik Ji
Don't underestimate our babus. hell they make their own boss--PM of India fall in line with their delaying tactics, file roko andolan etc.
Lets say we do buy Massaland equipment, this EULA is signed and delivered. Well Massa Inspectors have to give some time and date for their arrival to inspect the equipment. That notice must be 90 days in advance to prepare for the equipment to be verified. In bharat people get lost while walking the streets of Chandni Chowk what is to say, massa inspector communication will not get lost. Sometime desi babus do make us proud with their intelligence and gorilla tactics in stonewalling the massa's and they do it with straight face.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 May 2009 22:53

my point is this: If the laws are written to investigate and inspect the user of the usage of defence equipments pertaining to their laws.. then the document or the RFP must include the intention of our defence purchase, and make a 30% payment, plus clause to include that the intention of such weapons and their use very clearly., so that the legal texts has a fire back value for the inspectors.

say clearly, we will bomb the hell outta pakis or china or for that matter any enemy who attack us, or plan to attack us.

allow, integration of other weapons into MRCA platform as a clause so that inspection does not find, usage of third party parts and make it illegal.

allow, drdo parts as integral to the aircaft, and the legal aspects governing drdo will be taken into considerations.

they are welcome to inspect.. they are not to restrict use that invalidates our mil doctrine. these legal inspection are pure crap and normally UNkill uses for getting a hold on our strategic engagements.

its just an handle.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 26 May 2009 18:09

The latest news from media reports is that the Rafale's new AESA radar is ready and will be ready for commissioning by late 2011/2012 .Dassault claims that they are ahead of their rivals,the Gripen and the Typhoon in this important aspect.The improved performance of the Rafale against its European rivals could be a significant factor in the contest.Hormuz Mama has this to comment on the IAF's "conundrum",with depleting aircraft in its inventory and echoes the same concern that many of us have expressed-too many types of aircraft in service right now that could persist if a new type is acquired in this deal aaprt from the other projects on hand.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opi ... ms?curpg=2

IAF's combat aircraft conundrum
26 May 2009, 0616 hrs IST, Hormuz P Mama,

The IAF’s combat aircraft strength is steadily declining as old aircraft types are phased out of service — the most recent being the MiG-23BN ground
attack aircraft. Thus, the IAF now has only 32 combat aircraft squadrons, well below the sanctioned strength of 39.5 squadrons, and could fall further in a few years.

To meet its interim requirements, till the Light Combat Aircraft enters service, the IAF had initially wanted only some more Mirage 2000s, which had performed very well with the IAF. Also, while the latest variant was far more advanced than the IAF’s Mirage 2000H, the two would have had much commonality.

At that stage, the ministry of defence asked for competitive bidding, presumably to help reduce costs. That was when things took an unexpected turn. The Mirage 2000 production line was coming to an end, and manufacturer Dassault Aviation had requested an early decision on the planned IAF order. A global competition is something like a Five Year Plan. Dassault could not wait that long, and closed the Mirage 2000 production line, as planned. Thus, the IAF lost the chance to order any more of those aircraft.

Amazingly, for the IAF’s Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, every single combat aircraft type in the world was invited to participate. Only China’s J-10 was excluded — for obvious reasons — while export of the Japanese F-2 is forbidden by the Japanese constitution.

The six aircraft types in the competition are the Boeing F/A-18IN, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, MiG-35, (derived from the MiG-29), and the Saab Gripen IN. Each is the latest variant, with the most advanced technology available. The Su-30MKI is not invited, as more have been ordered directly.
That line-up of competitors raises some more questions. While the single-engined, F-16 would have been a most suitable aircraft for the IAF, it is also in service with Pakistan. Historically, the IAF has never ordered any aircraft already with Pakistan.

The presence of the Saab Gripen is also rather curious. It is very close to the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft in gross weight, performance and the level of technology. Indeed, the considerably upgraded Tejas Mk.2 may be the more advanced of the two. Why would the IAF want two such very similar aircraft in its fleet at the same time?

Importantly, the IAF still has a multiplicity of combat aircraft types in its fleet — the MiG-21s, MiG-27s, MiG-29s, Su-30MKIs, Mirage 2000s and Jaguars, with Tejas to follow soon. Of these, the MiG-21s and MiG-27s are to be phased out shortly, but the others will be around for some more years. The Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Combat Aircraft could enter service around 2017. Ideally, an air force should have only three or four different types. Whichever new MMRCA aircraft is selected will add one more type to the fleet.

The MiG-35, while derived from the MiG-29, is virtually a new aircraft type. Unlike the IAF’s MiG-29B, it has a fly-by-wire flight control system, a glass cockpit, a far more advanced avionics package with a far higher level of avionics integration, and a much higher performance. Clearly, its handling characteristics will be very different from those of the MiG-29B.

The MiG-35 could be offered at a low flyaway cost. However, its life-cycle cost may not be as attractive. The recent problem of corrosion at the
junction of the MiG-29’s fuselage and vertical stabiliser has led to the crash of some Russian air force aircraft, and the entire Russian fleet had been grounded for some time. That is worrisome. However, IAF MiG-29s seem unaffected. Even worse is the Russians’ tendency to demand higher contract prices, after contract finalisation, as on aircraft carrier Vikramaditya. The poor quality of their work and of their after-sales support does not help.

The United States offers very competitive prices and very advanced technologies, but tends to “review” contracts well after they have been signed — like the one for LM-2500 engines for Shivalik-class warships. It was later reversed, but caused unease. To-date, vital computer source codes have been offered only for the Rafale and the Gripen. That is an important factor in such a competition.

The other three competitors are all very advanced western twin-engined types. These have attractive life-cycle costs, but have very high flyaway costs. Can the IAF afford them? About five years ago, the single-engined F-16 had a flyaway cost of $55 million. Today, that same aircraft could possibly cost about $65 million. The much more capable F-16IN for India would have a substantially higher price again. The western twin jets on offer will be more expensive than the single-engined F-16IN. One of them could be not much below $100 million (Rs 500 crore) apiece today. Which of these aircraft will the IAF finally select?


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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby abhiti » 26 May 2009 19:19

NRao wrote:BTW, the F-22 seems to have the worst thrust among ALL air crafts per wiki!! 0.91 vs, 0.95 for the current super bug, and, 0.99 for the J-10.


F-22 has best T/W among all current fighters.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 26 May 2009 19:30

The advantage offered by Mig-35 is quite overwhelming , specially when one looks at rationalisation of force in long term and the need to avoid the equally expensive logistics ,spares and supply lines for new types.

In the broad matrix where number of factors are taken into account for aircraft selection , the Mig-35 scores will on most of the points , it may lack slightly being certain technologies like EW or certain parameters of radar.

But technology is a very dynamic parameter , russia perhaps may lack in certain technologies but can be overcome in short span of time or via integrating Indian or 3rd part components.

In my opinion the Mig-35 advantage is quite overwhelming , they need to take care of service complains like spares , support and delay , if russia can stream line it they get to gain from it.

I think the best way for RAC-Mig to get this done is to get in touch with DRDO and try to integrate components where ever possible from Tejas program from the ground up into Mig-35 , this will generate good will and right from word go there will be maximum possible commonality of equipment with Tejas.

On the weapons front the Mig-35 can give you the maximum logistics commonality by using weapons which can be well integrated with Su-30MKi , Mig-29upg , Mig-29K , Mig-27, Bison and Tejas.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaurav_S » 26 May 2009 19:35

India's latest defence procurement programmes

The Ministry of Defence is reportedly planning to double its arms procurement and spend to over $20 billion (over Rs 120,000 crore) -- more than twice the amount spent in the past 10 years on an annual basis. News reports suggest that India's military spending is even set to overtake Britain’s present defence budget within five years.
On the table are major naval acquisition programmes, including buying six submarines for about $2.3 billion and $3 billion worth modernizations of India’s artillery corps. Companies are, therefore, eyeing huge opportunities in the defence sector, also on the back of the India-US nuclear deal. For instance, US aerospace major Boeing alone sees a $20-billion opportunity in India’s defence sector over the next decade. It is bidding for defence orders worth $15-$20 billion for F/A-18 Super Hornet combat jets, and P8I maritime surveillance aircraft, among others.
According to sources, India has an ageing fighter fleet, mostly a combination of Jaguars, Russian-made MiGs and French Mirage aircraft, and some are up for replacement. Some of the latest defence procurement programmes include:

1) F/A-18 Super Hornet combat jets {Already won the bid?} :roll:

The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a supersonic carrier-capable fighter/attack aircraft. The Super Hornet, which is a larger and more advanced variant of the F/A-18C/D Hornet, was first ordered by the US Navy in 1992. It entered service with the US Navy in 1999. An early version was marketed by McDonnell Douglas as Hornet 2000 in the 1980s.
The Super Hornet is about 20 per cent larger, 7000 lb (3000 kg) heavier empty, and 15,000 lb (6800 kg) heavier at maximum weight than the original Hornet. It carries 33 per cent more internal fuel, increasing mission range by 41 per cent and endurance by 50 per cent over the ‘Legacy’ Hornet.

2) P8I maritime surveillance aircraft

The Boeing P8I maritime patrol aircraft the Indian Navy is on the verge of acquiring will give it a marked edge in the Indian Ocean region and one that is comparable to its US counterpart. The P8I, a customized version for the Indian Navy, is based on the hugely successful Boeing-737 commercial airliner. The Navy had in November 2006 expressed an interest in the aircraft as a replacement for its existing fleet of Il-38 aircraft that are nearing the end of their service life.

3) Mig-29K (Fulcrum-D) fighters

The government is also likely to buy 30 more carrier borne Mig-29K (Fulcrum-D) fighters for the Indian Navy, according to news reports. Russians have demanded a price escalation of $2 billion, almost double the original contract cost of $2.5 billion for refurbishing the 45,000-tonne carrier, including carrying out its elaborate sea trials in Russian waters, prior to its delivery by 2012. Under the 2004 contract for the acquisition of Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, India is to receive 12 single-seater MiG-29K and four two-seater MiG-29KUB in 2009, with an option of ordering additional 30 fighters by 2015.

4) Spyder missile

India has recently signed an agreement with Israel to acquire 18 Spyder surface to air missiles to protect high-value assets of the Indian Air Force. The plans to acquire the Spyder had been announced in 2006 but were on hold due to allegations of corruption over the Israeli Barak missiles deal for the Indian Navy signed four years ago. But as neither the IAF nor the Navy and Army have adequate missile defence protection, the government has been under pressure to do the needful for several years. Spyder is a static low level, quick reaction missile (LLQRM) to neutralize hostile targets up to 15 km away, and at heights between 20 to 9000 meters.

5) Akash surface to air missile

The Indian Air Force is also buying the indigenous Akash surface to air missile which has a little longer effective range of 25 km as part of a layered approach to defend its assets. Both the Spyder and Akash are all weather missiles, 24 x 7 and 360 degrees with autonomous management and advanced Electronic Counter Counter Measures (ECCM) capability. It can be launched within five seconds, and once the commander has pressed the button, the process to seek and engage an aggressive aircraft or missile is automatic.

6) Multi Role Combat Aircraft

The latest military sales issue on the table involves India’s plans to purchase more than 100 multi-role combat aircraft for its air force. The US F-16 Fighting Falcon and F/A-18 Hornet are among the contenders in the $10 billion competition.

7) Boeing’s Harpoon missiles

The United States recently announced the sale of two dozen Harpoon II anti-ship missiles to India. The deal is worth over $170 million, and would be the first sale of American missiles to India. The Pentagon has notified Congress of a possible sale to India of the Harpoon Block II missiles, which would arm squadrons of the maritime-role version of Jaguar warplanes of the Indian Air Force. The Pentagon’s Defence Security Cooperation Agency said India had sought 20 AGM-84L Harpoon missiles, which are fired from fixed-wing aircraft, and four ATM-84L Harpoon Block II Exercise missiles, containers, training devices, spare and repair parts.

8) Hercules C130J aircraft

India has also signed its one of the biggest military deals yet with the United States to buy six Super Hercules C130J special role aircraft in a $ 1-billion-plus package deal. The C 130J model is the latest optimised version of the Hercules C 130, configured for landing and takeoff from a grassy, or dirt patch the size of a football field. It can climb and get out of a threat area faster after dropping or carrying troops or wounded personnel. Named after a powerful Greek figure, the 4-engine Hercules is one of the oldest transport aircraft in the world. Introduced in the 1950s, and used in 67 countries, it has been deployed for recovering space capsules and also been able to land in the Antarctica by wearing skis. The Super Hercules version is an entirely new aircraft with new capabilities in the 20-ton capacity category.

9) EL/M-2083 Aerostat radars

In order to dissuade future coastal security lapses, the Indian Navy is all set to acquire its first set of balloon-mounted air defence radars from Israel. India is expected to soon sign a contract with Israel for the acquisition of two EL/M-2083 Aerostat radars. The EL/M-2083 is an aerostat-mounted air search radar which can detect better than ground-based radars. It is an early warning and control phased array radar designed to detect hostile approaching aircraft from long ranges, especially when they approach at low altitudes.

10) Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft

The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), being jointly developed by Russia and India, will fly by the end of 2009, with serial production starting by 2010. “By the end of this year, the plane will rise into the air and flight tests will begin,” Russian deputy prime minister Sergei Ivanov told journalists at the sidelines of a meeting in Russian Far East city of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Monday, May 11. He added that serial production will start in 2010, probably indicating that the development of the aircraft is being fast tracked. According to announced plans, the FGFA is to be inducted into the Russian Air Force by 2015 and into the Indian Air Force by 2017.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 26 May 2009 21:17

The link you've provided isn't working...here's the correct link:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/qui ... 694983.cms

DDM alert. I saw a business jet (Gulfstream?) posing as P8I!
Last edited by Dmurphy on 26 May 2009 21:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 26 May 2009 21:31

^^chances of f18 winning are becoming wider (and of rafale/ef grim) ,at least amriki-tail media think so and dhimmis in delhi will do so

admins may now close this thread,.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prabir » 28 May 2009 01:02

I don't think so, because Antony will ensure an objective analysis and decision making. The best product will win the race.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 28 May 2009 11:32

SaiK wrote:
http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10830
The sources said efforts were on to prepare a document that could be cleared by the government, which can then be appended to any procurement agreement instead of negotiating it afresh each time a purchase is made.

the Ministry is keen to ensure that the requirement under U.S. laws is kept to the bare minimum.

..In this case, instead of permitting Americans to visit Indian bases where these jets were positioned, New Delhi suggested that the equipment could be taken off these jets and be made available for inspection in the Capital. This done both parties went home satisfied of having kept to their end of the agreement, the sources said.

As per the U.S. laws, all foreign military sales are guided by the Golden Sentry programme that is governed by its Department of Defence while the Blue Lantern programme is governed by the Department of State.

This is to ensure that the product sold to a country is being used for the stated purpose.


So, just in case, how are these inspectors going to inspect 126 MRCAs ? This is just insane. Also, lets say we have a war.. and these inspectors say, we need to inspect 126 mrcas? would the airfoce agree to such inspection during strategic times or just go on to bomb the enemy out?

don't they just see a doctrine clash here.. it needs much more than venue for inspections. Furthermore, there should clause to say, about these timings., and inspectors can't inspect at their command and when they feel like.

more engagements, and more details of such documents are needed and must be exposed to public.


VERY SIMPLE

We ask our enemies for a temporary cease fire so that the MRCA is examined by the inspectors. As soon as that is doem we tell our enemies Ok now let us continue our un finished business.


Remember Sweden's defence equipment policy ?

We will sell you the best defence equipment in the world but please do not use it in a war !!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Vipul » 28 May 2009 17:40

IAF completes technical evaluation of $11 billion MMRCA contract.

The Indian Air Force said Wednesday it had completed the technical evaluation of six fighter jets from various companies around the world for a medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract estimated at more than $11 billion. The MMRCA contract is intended to replace the IAF's ageing fleet of Soviet-era fighter aircraft, including MiG-21's and MiG-27's.

"The technical evaluation report is now with the ministry of defence and we are awaiting their clearance," air force chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major told a news conference.

In contention are Lockheed Martin's F-16 Falcon, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Russian Aircraft Corp.'s MiG-35, Saab AB's JAS-39 Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Aviation SA's Rafale.

"We expect the ministry of defence to clear it soon, so that flight evaluation (field tests) can begin in two or three months after their approval," ACM Major said.

ACM Major also clarified that France's Dassault Aviation SA had been allowed to rejoin the bidding process. He provided no clarifications on the reasons why it had been knocked out of the evaluation process and subsequently allowed to participate.

Last month reports emanating from New Delhi had suggested that Dassault had been knocked out of contention for the contract "during the technical evaluation phase due to non-compliance with some operational requirements."

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 28 May 2009 17:42

prabir wrote:I don't think so, because Antony will ensure an objective analysis and decision making. The best product will win the race.

prabirji, thats what I am tryng to say is that the best product is going to be f18,after objective analysis* and decision making
[*antony supporters need not take it personally, :) ]

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 28 May 2009 17:46

Vipul wrote:IAF completes technical evaluation of $11 billion MMRCA contract.

The Indian Air Force said Wednesday it had completed the technical evaluation of six fighter jets from various companies around the world for a medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract estimated at more than $11 billion. The MMRCA contract is intended to replace the IAF's ageing fleet of Soviet-era fighter aircraft, including MiG-21's and MiG-27's.

"The technical evaluation report is now with the ministry of defence and we are awaiting their clearance," air force chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major told a news conference.

In contention are Lockheed Martin's F-16 Falcon, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Russian Aircraft Corp.'s MiG-35, Saab AB's JAS-39 Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Aviation SA's Rafale.

"We expect the ministry of defence to clear it soon, so that flight evaluation (field tests) can begin in two or three months after their approval," ACM Major said.

ACM Major also clarified that France's Dassault Aviation SA had been allowed to rejoin the bidding process. He provided no clarifications on the reasons why it had been knocked out of the evaluation process and subsequently allowed to participate.

Last month reports emanating from New Delhi had suggested that Dassault had been knocked out of contention for the contract "during the technical evaluation phase due to non-compliance with some operational requirements."

good to hear that all six jets are in race,and things have started moving,it being first step,now field trials ,setting best bargain and a small political drama from the commies remains before f18 is ordered :)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prabir » 28 May 2009 19:52

Samay wrote:
prabir wrote:I don't think so, because Antony will ensure an objective analysis and decision making. The best product will win the race.

prabirji, thats what I am tryng to say is that the best product is going to be f18,after objective analysis* and decision making
[*antony supporters need not take it personally, :) ]


Not a supporter of Antony, but you will agree that he is a honest man. So, if F18 is selected, then there will be some secret understanding on US policy w.r.t Pakistan and China. I am sure of that.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 28 May 2009 20:04

Not a supporter of Antony, but you will agree that he is a honest man :rotfl: . So, if F18 is selected, then there will be some secret understanding on US policy w.r.t Pakistan and China. I am sure of that.


prabirji,
There is an old saying 'Trust No Politician' ,
and by the way what is that secret US policy?
I am doubtful of it being of any benefit .US policy is meant only for US,and very hazardous for any sovereign nation to adapt or being a part of it,
India's best interests are in India centric policies only,and that the purpose should not be affected by anyone,where in this case if there is over dependence on american weapons,it will be in tremors.
I guess its clear why not to trust any politician in straight forward objectivity, their working manners are always twisted,and twisted they will always be.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prabir » 28 May 2009 22:14

I completely agree that we should not have over dependence on anything american. But nothing stops us from getting the best from them, because, remember, americans have always been "used" by smart people from all over the world. So, we can always "use" them for our interest. Pls note that, they don't want China to become too powerful as they will have to fight the chinese some day.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 28 May 2009 22:34

we should not have over dependence on anything american.

my point is this,
we should have over dependence on anything Indian.

now, which of these 6 contenders will help us get there or at least to an extent ( percentage basis)?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Atri » 28 May 2009 23:32

SaiK wrote:now, which of these 6 contenders will help us get there or at least to an extent ( percentage basis)?


Rafale... Rafale all the way.... :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Nihat » 29 May 2009 01:07

Even if we go with the F-18 ( as is widely assumed) , I still think it is the best aircraft on offer in technical capabilities wrt Weapons , radar , combat experience , serviceability etc.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby KrishG » 29 May 2009 01:13

The F-16 E/F is already in service with UAE Air Force with which PAF enjoys very close relationship. EF is in service with Saudi Air Force, also having close ties with Pakistan. We already know that this will influence the procurement, to what extent remains to be seen.

Also now UAE is in the to be final stages of talks with Dassault to buy 60 Rafales. If this deal goes through, it might have some effect on Rafale's chances. This leaves Super Hornet, MiG-35 and Gripen. We might see Super Hornet's chances increasing here.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 29 May 2009 01:28

^^^ also do know that the UAE holds royalties and certain IPRs to the APG-80. A plane PAF pilots have spend countless hours on.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 29 May 2009 09:09

which of these do you think would take precedence in decision making for narrowing down the right a/c?

a- in business association with pakis either by direct or indirect sales.
b- in business association with china either by direct or indirect sales.
c- go purely by rfp specifications.
d- country specific politics superceding company specific dealings to a or b.
e- go purely by pseduo mandates the new baboo power has
f- don't forget the middle agents and their shady dealings
g- go purely by merits of the a/c based on their capabilities
h- go purely by the number of a/c manufactured and sold
i- least life cycle cost
j- least purchase cost
k- highest cost-performance aspect, that includes life cycle costs
l- highest profit for local business tie-ups on offsets
m- highest technology transfer offer
n- highest Indian component integration offer (mkize)
o- low maintenance cost
p- tejas shareware
q- multi vendor
r- bang for the buck
s- past established relationships
t- established but troubled relationships
u- failures and mtbf
v- highest threat value or the most feared fighter in the world (or near to it).
w- past sales records
x- past failures and crash statistics
y- latest and greatest technology package
z- augmentation or enhancement aspects

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby vicky_iyer » 29 May 2009 17:12

Hello All
Here is a discussion I found, comparing F-16 to F-18 http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... art-0.html . Although I am not sure how fair the comparison is !
Also I did read up on these aircraft's a bit; the theme that seems to be coming out, points to the fact, that F-16 is a better all round aircraft as compared to F-18. That being the case why should we buy F-18 Super hornet, an aircraft that drinks more fuel, is more maintenance intensive , has a higher operation cost, has slower acceleration, has a lower thrust to weight ratio and an almost similar mission profile to MKI.

I ask this question, as many in this forum are advocating F-18 over F-16. The general argument seems to be, just because the pakis have it we should not have it.
It's not that my point or someone else;s point is ultimately gonna influence air forces decision. But just for curiosity sake, why don't the forum members help compare these two aircraft's.

the point of comparison could be:
AOA
Range
Payload
Radar
cost
Weight
Numbers in operation
Major export successes in the last 5 years.
Etc.
Etc.

Thanks
-Vivek-

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prabir » 29 May 2009 18:38

SaiK wrote:
we should not have over dependence on anything american.

my point is this,
we should have over dependence on anything Indian.

now, which of these 6 contenders will help us get there or at least to an extent ( percentage basis)?


The main objective of this deal is to energize our domestic industry. So, the deal should ideally choose a partner that can improve our design,development, testing and deployment capability. LCA and MCA programs should be the natural beneficiary of this initiative. French always transfer "full" knowledge and technology for a price. So, even if the total cost of the deal with French is higher than what Russians, Americans have on offer, it will always make strategic sense to go with the French as it will help our own manufacturing base.

On another note, French will also be willing to make gratitude payments to people who matter. This factor will always remain with any deal. So, end-result will be good if we go with the French.


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