Indian Naval Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 May 2009 13:48

RIP Adm.Nanda.You played your part well in '71 and the IN was covered with glory in its achievements on both the western and eastern fronts.

Coming back to Navantia.As I said earlier,the Juan Carlos amphib vessel which Oz is buying is best suited for the IN's purposes,as it has an extra deck when compared with the French Mistral class and with its ski jump can switch roles easily,from amphib ops,ASW to a small strike carrier too using VSTOL aircraft.

The Aegis DDGs that Spain have are not as capable as IN designs,especially the Delhi+ DDGs,which are Brahmos equipped.WE should devise our won system of interoperability as AEGIS integrates us into the US network of allies,which will seriously compromise ou independence.

VAYU had in a recent issue an excellent feature on the success of the ASTRA long range AAM,which is meant for both the IAF and the IN.With a 100km range,ASTRA ,which supposedly uses an MBDA seeker for faster development,has excellent potential for an indigenous LR SAM for IN warships.In addition,the size of the missile is very compact when compared with many foreign alternatives and could even be fitted on frigates of the P-17 size.With ASTRA's recent successes,therappears to be a concerted attempt to derail our breakthrough with the offers which if accepted will derail the missile from being a key weapon system for both the IAF and IN.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 13 May 2009 16:05

vavinash wrote:Can't see IN going for it. How will they integrate Barak-8/brahmos with AEGIS without source codes.

Lockheed Martin: The Aegis is India's for the asking

Interestingly, he even said that the system would be compatible with the new anti-missile system recently tested by DRDO. He would have been referring to the anti-ballistic missile test, the Prithvi Air Defence Exercise (PADE), that India recently tested. According to Caplinger, such integration, however, "…would depend entirely on the Indian scientists and India's requirements."
"The MK 41 Vertical Launching System (that is integrated into the Aegis system) is not currently configured to integrate the BrahMos or Agni, but it can be adapted," Caplinger added.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 13 May 2009 17:36

India to get delivery of first nuclear submarine by year end

Its a Good news !

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 13 May 2009 17:40

Prabu wrote:India to get delivery of first nuclear submarine by year end

Its a Good news !

What about our own one , any news on that

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 May 2009 18:43

Ok Putin sanctioning USD 300 million to complete the project and deliver to India by end of this year , wonder this kind of commitment comes with some quid pro quo deal with India ?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 13 May 2009 18:59

More Mig-29k's (32-36 more needed by navy), 3 more Talwars and Subs to replace the kilos probably. EDITED.

added later : on second thoughts, the political comments too have no place here and bad mouthing the PM is certainly not allowed on BR.
(thanks to the BRFite who reported this post. you know who you are !)
Rahul.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 May 2009 19:01

vavinash wrote:Can't see IN going for it. How will they integrate Barak-8/brahmos with AEGIS without source codes.

This could be an age old trick. The US is perhaps foreseeing India building one by herself - perhaps a competing technology and therefore they may feel it is no longer worth denying India the same technology. Might as well make some money on the side.

Code will not be an issue in that case.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 13 May 2009 19:05

They will not provide source codes. Period. IN will have to absolute morons to go foe the aegis. IN will be more than happy with El-2048, Brahmos, Barak-8 and Barak-1+Ak-630 combo. Its more than what chinks and pakis can handle.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 May 2009 19:19

Jan, 2008 :: L&T, Lockheed in JV talks for developing Mark 41 Vertical Launching Systems

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 13 May 2009 19:34

Its been more than a year. What has come of it? nothing at all. L&T is in talks with EADs and lots of companies. There will be not AEGIS in IN. Barak-8 may or may not be compatible but brahmos is definitely not.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 May 2009 20:28

I think we are on two diff pages.

Let me reboot.

There is an AEGIS system (for detection, categorizing, etc) and Mark 41 Vertical Launching Systems for (universal) launching - that form an integrated system.

India has a ground based detection system in Greenpine++ and a rudimentary launch system in whatever India uses to launch the PAD/etc. Granted these are NOT mature systems as yet.

With a variety of missiles, India is bound to think about building a "universal" launch system - specially for ships/subs.

Also, India should be thinking of a ship based Greenpine++ - for obvious reasons.

What LM has done is to try and undercut both the detection system (ship based Greenpine++) with the offer of the AEGIS and the Indian universal launch system with the offer for Mark 41.

These offers are of interest ONLY because India should be starting to think about both - ship based detection system and a universal launcher.

Makes sense?

IF that is true, then a Greenpine++ will only compete with a AEGIS + code IMHO. However, as LM stated LM will provide what India wants, my read is that not all code will be parted with.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 May 2009 21:13

Philip wrote:RIP Adm.Nanda.You played your part well in '71 and the IN was covered with glory in its achievements on both the western and eastern fronts.

Coming back to Navantia.As I said earlier,the Juan Carlos amphib vessel which Oz is buying is best suited for the IN's purposes,as it has an extra deck when compared with the French Mistral class and with its ski jump can switch roles easily,from amphib ops,ASW to a small strike carrier too using VSTOL aircraft.

The Aegis DDGs that Spain have are not as capable as IN designs,especially the Delhi+ DDGs,which are Brahmos equipped.WE should devise our won system of interoperability as AEGIS integrates us into the US network of allies,which will seriously compromise ou independence.

VAYU had in a recent issue an excellent feature on the success of the ASTRA long range AAM,which is meant for both the IAF and the IN.With a 100km range,ASTRA ,which supposedly uses an MBDA seeker for faster development,has excellent potential for an indigenous LR SAM for IN warships.In addition,the size of the missile is very compact when compared with many foreign alternatives and could even be fitted on frigates of the P-17 size.With ASTRA's recent successes,therappears to be a concerted attempt to derail our breakthrough with the offers which if accepted will derail the missile from being a key weapon system for both the IAF and IN.

Philip: if it wouldnt amount to copyright violation, would it be possible for you to upload the Astra article on Vayu mentioned above? Thanks

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 13 May 2009 21:32

NRao wrote:Former Naval Chief Admiral S M Nanda passes away

Isn't he the same Adm Nanda whose Potah (GrandSon) killed 19 people in BMW case and dear Mr. Admiral bought off eye witnesses for Rs 20lakh and send off his muerderous Grandson to Massaland.
He has the blood of innocent people on his hand that were killed by his grandson.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 May 2009 21:41

Yep - he is the same. I read somewhere (TOI I think) that his grandson was granted bail for the funeral. So, not sure if potah kuttah is in massaland or jail

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 14 May 2009 05:05

Putin steps in, n-submarine for India by year-end

India is all set to get its first new generation Akula-II class nuclear attack submarine by the year-end, bolstering its Navy’s undersea capability manifold. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has ordered delivery of the submarine to the Indian Navy and has sanctioned $300 million for speedy completion of the project.

...

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 May 2009 06:36

Achievements muted at Admiral's last journey

Some more info on the Nuclear sub

Russia to deliver nuclear attack submarine to India by year-end news

On 11 February 2009 an Indian team visited the shipyard and inspected the submarine and also held discussions with experts.

It is not clear whether this is submarine is the only one taken on a lease\purchase agreement with the Russia or part of a pair contracted for by the Indian Navy. The 'Nerpa' was 75-80% complete in 2005 when the contract was firmed up by both the sides, with its construction abandoned after the collapse of the erstwhile Soviet Union. The other 'Kaban' was 40-60% complete.

It is also not clear whether the submarines are part of a lease agreement, as with the earlier Charlie-II Class (INS Chakra) submarine which was returned to the Soviet Union after expiry of its lease period, or if India retains the option to buy the submarine upon expiry of the lease agreement. The new Schucka-B submarine is also expected to be named as INS Chakra.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 May 2009 07:16

Can we use Nerpa in the event of a war? Also, if we plan to buy them eventually, how does this fill our deterrent needs? This is an SSN but what we need are SSBNs (till ATVs become operational). Does MTCR prohibit sale of SSBNs (even without the missiles)?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 May 2009 08:05

The 'Pacific Partnership 2007' album has been updated with a number of RVC-related images;
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... 7/Pacific/

A couple more PASSEX images have been added in the Malabar '09 gallery;
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... 9/Malabar/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 May 2009 08:09

Prem Kumar wrote:Can we use Nerpa in the event of a war?

Absolutely.

Prem Kumar wrote:Also, if we plan to buy them eventually, how does this fill our deterrent needs?

The Nerpa will be used more to familiarize the Indian Navy on how to operate a SSN, than anything else. I doubt the Russians will allow us to put nuclear armed missiles on-board a leased vessel. But then again, you never know.

Prem Kumar wrote:This is an SSN but what we need are SSBNs (till ATVs become operational). Does MTCR prohibit sale of SSBNs (even without the missiles)?

What use is a SSBN without the missiles?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 May 2009 08:10

Check out these two interesting images...

http://dodimagery.afis.osd.mil/imagery. ... 29eda27f13

http://dodimagery.afis.osd.mil/imagery. ... cfcba00cc4

Div · Post by **Div** » 14 May 2009 08:53

Rakesh wrote:Check out these two interesting images...

http://dodimagery.afis.osd.mil/imagery. ... 29eda27f13

http://dodimagery.afis.osd.mil/imagery. ... cfcba00cc4

Those links just go to a search page.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 May 2009 09:40

Israel Unveils Mini-Aegis (Barak-8) Missile

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 14 May 2009 10:22

JaiS wrote:Israel Unveils Mini-Aegis (Barak-8) Missile

The article is wrong when it says the "full scale mockup of Barak8 for the firsttime at IMDEX"...

the fullscale mockup was there at AeroIndia09... but it was stencilled MRSAM (IIRC)..

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 14 May 2009 10:38

Maybe the mockup shown in aeroindia was the IAF version with mid body fins.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 14 May 2009 13:20

Baljeet wrote:
NRao wrote:Former Naval Chief Admiral S M Nanda passes away

Isn't he the same Adm Nanda whose Potah (GrandSon) killed 19 people in BMW case and dear Mr. Admiral bought off eye witnesses for Rs 20lakh and send off his muerderous Grandson to Massaland.
He has the blood of innocent people on his hand that were killed by his grandson.

Baljeet Sir,Personal things aside,we will always remember him for his achievements of the 71 war,what happened in his personal life should be immaterial here,i don't think he had much control on his Gen Next Grandson,anyway no one in this world is Mr.Clean,we all have our loopholes.

JMT

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 14 May 2009 14:41

hi guys am completely new to this forum.......

i was just reading the interview with nanda put in rediff

http://news.rediff.com/interview/2009/m ... -nanda.htm

some place i found some strange things

One day, when things hotted up in Bengal, after one such meeting, same questions, same last query, I said told her that I would like to see her in her office.

'Come over,' she said. We were both in South Block. I told her 'Madam, things are hotting up, and there is a possibility of war breaking out anytime. I have made up my mind that I am going to attack Karachi. I want political clearance from you. I don't want to be told at the last minute that I cannot do it. Militarily it is my responsibility.'

She thought a bit, and then said, 'Well Admiral, if there's a war, there's war.'

'Thank you very much madam, I have got my answer,' I replied.

So I called my directors of naval operations and naval intelligence, said I have spoken to the prime minister, and I think we have clearance to plan what to do if the war breaks out. I am planning to attack Karachi, and we've got to make preparations.

Everybody looked at me, and they said Karachi is a very heavily defended port. They've got six inch guns, while our guns are only four inch. So we will be well within their range before they come into our range. So I said we have these Russian-made Osa Class missile boats with Styx missiles, which are for harbour defence. What is their range? What are their capabilities? Do they have ship to surface missiles?

why we dont have the capability to attack .....?
why the admiral dont have any idea about the missile range and other technical details..?

Now a soldier must have faith in his weapons systems. I needed to test these missiles. But where was the target going to come from? So I asked the Russians how they tested their missiles. They said we have a special type of a ship with compartments in it, so that if a missile hits it, does not sink. Can we get a ship like that, I asked. It will take us two years to build it, they replied. I said forget it.

We had a British made practice target, which was made out of a hull on which is fitted a large frame, or target, on which we fire the guns. So I had some aluminum balls prepared to be fitted on the target. Then we towed this target some 30 miles out to sea, and came back.

why we didnt test our missiles before...?

just few doubts only guys

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 14 May 2009 19:34

Jimmy moh what kind of query is that?
Did you know that under Adm Nanda commmand, hum TSP ko unke ghar me ghus ke mare!!

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 14 May 2009 19:52

fanne wrote:Jimmy moh what kind of query is that?
Did you know that under Adm Nanda commmand, hum TSP ko unke ghar me ghus ke mare!!

They've got six inch guns, while our guns are only four inch. So we will be well within their range before they come into our range

i was worrying how can such situation can happen........?
we hit the port only because our strategy..?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 May 2009 20:10

See

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/hist ... rachi.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ ... stani_War)

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 14 May 2009 20:20

narayana wrote:
Baljeet wrote:

Isn't he the same Adm Nanda whose Potah (GrandSon) killed 19 people in BMW case and dear Mr. Admiral bought off eye witnesses for Rs 20lakh and send off his muerderous Grandson to Massaland.
He has the blood of innocent people on his hand that were killed by his grandson.
Baljeet Sir,Personal things aside,we will always remember him for his achievements of the 71 war,what happened in his personal life should be immaterial here,i don't think he had much control on his Gen Next Grandson,anyway no one in this world is Mr.Clean,we all have our loopholes.

JMT

Narayana Ji
An officer behaves and acts like an officer all the time. You are calling his 71 karachi harbor bombing achievement, he lifted that strategy from pakis when they actually launched a strike at Dwarka in 1965. Success has 1000 fathers and failure has million orphans. Pakis were caught napping, before they realized they were in range he had his glory. He was doing his job that he was trained for and expected to perform at highest level being an admiral. We all have skeletons in our closet but none of us has ever tried to justify carnage and homicide. Are you suggesting if you have a paramvir chakra or you are a senior most officer that your grand children should go start killing innocent people. Why does anyone complain about criminal politicians in our government, they are accumulating wealth by fleecing this nation for their 7 pushtein. But again, we Bharat Mata key Saput are almost always hypocrites.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 May 2009 20:40

he lifted that strategy from pakis when they actually launched a strike at Dwarka in 1965.

The two operations are hardly comparable

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 14 May 2009 21:15

dwarka was way too close to the paki border, so they could put a H&D oriented meaningless strike. Karachi operation involved careful planning and hit their pathetic navy in the crown jewels. Not to mention the psy-op value of hitting a citadel and coming out unscathed.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2009 21:23

I believe none of the 66 or so shells landed on dwaraka exploded ? Lord Krishna watches over that place (with help from the british who sold a batch of dud shells)

it seems Adm Nanda worked in the karachi port trust before partition and hence had a insiders intimate
knowledge of the place. not unimportant in those days of no satellites and no chance of aerial recon over the
port.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 May 2009 21:34

Rakesh wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Can we use Nerpa in the event of a war?
Absolutely.

Prem Kumar wrote:Also, if we plan to buy them eventually, how does this fill our deterrent needs?
The Nerpa will be used more to familiarize the Indian Navy on how to operate a SSN, than anything else. I doubt the Russians will allow us to put nuclear armed missiles on-board a leased vessel. But then again, you never know.

Prem Kumar wrote:This is an SSN but what we need are SSBNs (till ATVs become operational). Does MTCR prohibit sale of SSBNs (even without the missiles)?
What use is a SSBN without the missiles?

Rakesh,

The reason I was talking about an SSBN without missiles was to circumvent MTCR. Obviously the Russians cannot sell us ballistic missiles but they can sell us the SSBNs, which we can fit with our own SLBMs. I am not sure why this is not explored. Instead of leasing/buying 2 SSNs, we could buy 2 SSBNs (or) 1 SSBN + 1 SSN. Fit the SSBN with Agni-3SL (to use Arun's terminology). This will serve as the 3rd leg of our deterrent till ATV is operational, which is at least 5 years away.

Perhaps I could be oversimplifying it - its possible that our Agni-3SL might not fit into a Russian SSBN launch tube.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 May 2009 21:58

Why should we buy SSBNs when ours is nearly ready?

Better to develop in house capabilities the hard way rather than getting it easy now and struggling later. Also, if a lease involved so much drama over all these years, cant imagine how long a sale of a SSBN will take!!!

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 14 May 2009 22:15

There are merits to what prem kumar says. The chinks Xia class is absolutely useless and the newer type-094 most likely a delfin-3 copy. If IN could lease delta-3's from RuN and fit them with Agni-3sl (5k-6k range) it would serve as sea based deterrence instead of ATV with K-15 that has only 750-1500 km range.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 May 2009 22:23

vavinash wrote:There are merits to what prem kumar says. The chinks Xia class is absolutely useless and the newer type-094 most likely a delfin-3 copy. If IN could lease delta-3's from RuN and fit them with Agni-3sl (5k-6k range) it would serve as sea based deterrence instead of ATV with K-15 that has only 750-1500 km range.

That sounds fine in a ideal babuless world but given our "track record", any such action will take minimum 8-10 years before a Delta-3 sees Indian colours which would make the deal pointless(by then)...

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 14 May 2009 23:03

Here are the true colors of Thomas Keating...
clicky
These goras have more colors to show than any chameleon. My question to Thomas keating would be how about Russian Navy and chinese navy establishing their refueling base in Venezuela, Cuba, Panama, bahamas etc. Most of the drug problems in this world are coming from this part of the world. They would gladly accept american offer war on drugs while chasing drug runners very close to american waters.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 14 May 2009 23:19

http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=3 ... =&supDate=

Guys and idea about this pakistan's claim to extend its maritime boundry from 200 to 320 nautical.Any guru's who have experience can throw light on this.Has anyone got any idea whether india is doing anything to block this move ?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 May 2009 23:33

^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat ... of_the_Sea