India-US News and Discussion

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shiv
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

That girl Sara(swati) was good actually.

But the video shows actually shows what Manny wrote a few pages ago:
Manny wrote: People here care more about their immediate neighborhood and local affairs first than something that may happen 15000 miles away where these folks have hardly any influence.
And so you have Molly saying that Saraswati is African because she is dark and cannot be "Asian' because she doesn't have "pointy" eyes.

hmmm..
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

It is only in Britain, that when one says 'Asian' one first refers to "South Asians'. AFAIK, in all other parts of world, Asians first refers to 'East Asians'. So Indians are Indians, whereas Chinese are Asians.

No wonder, the two white teenagers were perplexed about the Indian girl claiming she is an Asian. Asia for them is 'East Asia'. Western Asian countries, Arabs, Turkey, Iran, Israel belong to 'Mid-East', and not 'Asia'.

No collective word for the people of the countries of the Indian Subcontinent has really established itself in America - neither Indian Subcontinent nor South Asia. These terms are used more in intellectual, academic and security circles, and are less well-known in the popular culture.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

About 20 years ago I had educated American adults tell me that they thought India was near Australia!!!!!! It was winter here in Chicago and they were under a strange impression (which they could not explain) that it was summer in India. When asked why did they think that - yeah, India is close to Australia. Made perfect sense as to why they thought, that i Dec, it was summer in India.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by bart »

RajeshA wrote:It is only in Britain, that when one says 'Asian' one first refers to "South Asians'. AFAIK, in all other parts of world, Asians first refers to 'East Asians'. So Indians are Indians, whereas Chinese are Asians.

No wonder, the two white teenagers were perplexed about the Indian girl claiming she is an Asian. Asia for them is 'East Asia'. Western Asian countries, Arabs, Turkey, Iran, Israel belong to 'Mid-East', and not 'Asia'.

No collective word for the people of the countries of the Indian Subcontinent has really established itself in America - neither Indian Subcontinent nor South Asia. These terms are used more in intellectual, academic and security circles, and are less well-known in the popular culture.

Doesn't excuse their stupidity and ignorance. AQ Khan's favorite tools are universally known as Xerox machines yet you dont find Indians shocked to find that some are made by Canon or Toshiba or Ricoh and not Xerox Corporation.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by harbans »

There are some really good responses to that video.It's sort of caught on. Evoked a puky reaction from common youngsters in the US itself. Though here's an exception to the typically emotional outburst against Molly and her 'regular' friend?

[youtube]oR1VH5vcEo8&NR=1[/youtube]

I think the unthinkable is happening..instead of or neighbors becoming Dharmic..the Yanks are well on the way certainly :mrgreen:
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

I was laughing so hard at both videos... made my day. This should be in the humour thread!
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by harbans »

I think the great thing about that video is the comments by fellow Americans on the Youtube page. Almost all of them blast the two girls for their stupidity, which shows that most of them reject such bigotry and goes to support the contention in the earlier article that Americans are becoming more of an 'many roads leading to god' type society much like Hinduism or Buddhism.

Bart indeed. Look at the video responses. There are dozens and dozens and plenty disgust. Some violently expressed..some saying they'd convert than be grouped with Christianity..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyZg-VT8 ... re=related

There's a Poe's law interpretaton some are tryng to sell on the contradiction of parodying Fundamentalism without a 'smile, wink' etc. But the fundamental Poe's Law is this:

Poe's Law states:

It is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that someone' won't mistake for the real thing. So fundamentally it works both ways.

Poe's Law relates to fundamentalism, and the difficulty of identifying actual parodies thereof. It suggests in general, that it is very difficult to differentiate fake/parody fundamentalism from the real thing, since they may both espouse equally extreme beliefs. It works both ways. For example, some conservatives consider noted baptist evangelical Fred Phelps to be so over-the-top that they think he's a "deep cover liberal" trying to discredit more mainstream Christians.

"Poe's Law" is a Christian theological principle that states: "Elements of the Gospel speak to different levels of spiritual concern in different cultures at different times." It is taught to modern evangelists as a way to better target the message of the Gospel to different audiences for maximum salvific efficacy. The law was named after theologian Dr. Harry Lee Poe, a cousin of Edgar Allan Poe, who promoted the concept in his book "The Gospel and Its Meaning: A Theology for Evangelism and Church Growth." According to Poe's Law, we should emphasize the radical aspect of Jesus in order to appeal to today's spirited youths.

However, whats interesting is the disgust. Imagine if these people knew this and worse is exactly what the evanjihadi's are doing all over Orissa, Karnataka, NE...disgusting people in India. What was New life all about apart from denigrating Hindu Gods and promoting Chrisianity and 'salvation'. The really positive thing i see emerge, is the disgust at conversion. I think lots of people will understand why the US religious grop that bracketed India recently was wrong. A welcome change is being noticed at least in the US if not in or immediate neighborhood..
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by bart »

harbans wrote: However, whats interesting is the disgust. Imagine if these people knew this and worse is exactly what the evanjihadi's are doing all over Orissa, Karnataka, NE...disgusting people in India. What was New life all about apart from denigrating Hindu Gods and promoting Chrisianity and 'salvation'. The really positive thing i see emerge, is the disgust at conversion. I think lots of people will understand why the US religious grop that bracketed India recently was wrong. A welcome change is being noticed at least in the US if not in or immediate neighborhood..

Couldn't agree with you more. If these Pentecostal type groups said or did the same things to non-Christians in the US as they do outside of the US, there would be immediate and massive outrage, especially from Jews and Muslims, but also mostly from normal white Americans.

I had an interesting experience in that regard, I went on a tour of holy sites in Jerusalem, and most of the people on the bus were Americans, either tourist folk or techie types visiting Intel or Motorola R&D facilities in Israel. There was this lady who was totally fundamentalist and was pretty obnoxious, interrupting the tour guide several times and lecturing others on how everything from the location of various buildings to the destruction of the Jewish Temple etc was because 'the lord willed it'. By the end of the trip when the lady got down at her hotel, there was a collective sigh of relief and you could find most American people on the bus both embarrassed and irritated by her.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

A useful book review. Soon after the British lost their colonies and power they gave rise to the mercenary armies used in third world nations to launch coups etc.
We might see this again.
Acharya wrote:Licensed to Kill: Privatizing the War on Terror
by Robert Young Pelton (Author)


# Format: Kindle Edition
# File Size: 1627 KB
# Print Length: 368 pages
# Publisher: Crown (August 29, 2006)
# Sold by: Amazon Digital Services
# Language: English
# ASIN: B000JMKR84
Licensed to Kill is Robert Young Pelton's broad survey of the modern world of mercenaries. Strike that, of contractors. Mercenaries, after all, as Doug Brooks of IPOA (International Peace Operations Association) said in the movie Shadow Company: anyone convicted as being a mercenary should be shot along with his lawyer (Doug, pardon my paraphrasing). Regardless, Pelton's subtitle captures what these guys are: hired guns. Or as one of the contractors in the book put it: "guns with legs".

Pelton's book is (or can be) a quick read. It's conversational, often with the feel that you're sitting in a pub having a beer while he tells you a story (as you do in his World's Most Dangerous Places books). For me, however, it wasn't a quick read. I found myself highlighting sentences, scribbling in the margins, and applying colored flags for quick and future reference. Pelton may challenge the journalist\ community with how he gets into the action (journos not always being the type who will ride with the bad guy when something might happen), but this is how he gets the facts, the story, and the respect that opens doors later. A perpetual cycle, his access gets him more access and so on. Unlike other others who seek to justify a point of view, Pelton comes off balanced, telling it like it is and, very importantly, with context.

Licensed to Kill is more than a narrative of private operators, it is an almost forensic look into the use of private military forces. High profile actors in the world of hired guns, such as Erik Prince and Blackwater, Tim Spicer, Simon Mann, and Michael Grunburg (profiled deeper in Three Worlds Gone Mad) of various ventures, and even a con-artist who's convinced he's the greatest American hero.

This book is a great resource that pulls the curtain aside to see how PMCs operate, a look into their motivations, and where they are being used. If you're not provoked to learn more, you're not paying attention.

I was the guy that did the threat study that put private military contractors on the official targeting list for the US Government, establishing them as legitimate targets who needed to be understood by all available (secret and open) means as either belligerents or at least relevant actors in any situation.

Robert Young Pelton, whom I know personally and admire as one of the most honest, courageous, and mature investigative journalists and adventurers (see my review of his Robert Young Pelton's The World's Most Dangerous Places: 5th Edition (Robert Young Pelton the World's Most Dangerous Places), is without question the best reporter and observer in the world of the "dogs of war." He ranks up with and above Robert Kaplan, Seymour Hersh, and John Fialka, three intrepid and intellectual reporters who help define the extraordinary talents and veracity of this author, Robert Young Pelton.

When I received his book I dropped everything and offer here a few of the highlights:

He distinguishes carefully between Mercenaries (soldiers for hire) and Private Military Contractors (PMC) who are security for hire.

Blackwater, the best of the (PMC can train 35,000 men in a year, and delivers a lighter, faster, smaller (and more effective) security force than the U.S. Army.

He recounts the history of CIA money into Special Operations Forces (SOF) black operations, which in turn created PMCs. Just as CIA funded the jihad in Afghanistan, so also has it funded--perhaps ignorantly in both cases--the emergence of the PMCs.


Telling early story: before 9/11, lawyers reduced CIA and other action elements of the US Government to wimpy toast. It took 9/11 to frost the lawyers and unleash the real men in the USG and elsewhere.

EDIT: Prior to 9/11, the lawyers were piss-ants such as those who advised the ABLE DANGER team to destroy evidence discovered pre 9-11 of two hijackers, instead of turning it over to the FBI. CIA lawyers, with a couple of exceptions, are also piss-ants. Real men include the guys that went into Afghanistan (see my reviews of Jawbreaker: The Attack on Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda: A Personal Account by the CIA's Key Field Commander and First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan), and the guys at US Special Operations Command who are on their own all over the world. I never imagined that NSA and CIA would simply turn the lawyers off and violate ALL of our civil liberties, including warrantless wiretapping and rendition (kidnapping to export for torture) and the denial of habeas corpus to US and UK and Australian citizens, among others.

His overall account makes it clear that the new breed of PMC warrior is better in all respects (stronger, faster, smarter, better shot, more tech savvy) than the past SOF heroes, but FAILS in one important respect: tactical combat decision-making. He explains that communications has robbed the field men of all initiative, and they are now nothing more than risk takers for fat-assed pasty-faced Rear Echelon Mother Fryers (REMF) with too much rank, too much air conditioning, and not enough character to make it in the field.

This book will be, for some time, the basic reference for those who wish to be PMCs, manage PMCs, or employ PMC companies. On the one hand, he documents the rates and the profits ($500 a day per man, billed at $1500 a day per man, with $500 for overhead and $500 for profit PER DAY), but he also points out that at 24/7 ops tempo, this can come out to $25 an hour, or worse. He points out that SOF and other skilled uniformed professionals earn $50K a year, while PMCs can earn $200K a year--the contrast explains why SOF is hemorrhaging personnel. He discussed the 90 days on, 30 days off, but also notes that a third of the candidates do not make the grade in training, while half of those who are sent to the field do not make the grade under combat conditions and are Ordered Home.

In passing he notes that CIA tends to stink at local level relations, throwing money at locals to get intelligence, which is consequently generally bad and useless.

He also warns those who receive USG funded PMCs that as was the case in Haiti, the withdrawal of US funding for PMC security can be capricious and sudden.

He related the rise of the PMC to the political desire in the US of limiting the uniformed head counts in combat conditions, and this in turn not only supports PMCs with guns instead of uniformed military with guns, but also turning over all logistics to PMCs, some of which are unrealizable (and thus leave our troops without water and food and shower points in the clinch).

The book adds further to the documented view of Paul Bremer as a dictator no better than Saddam Hussein (who at least provided electricity and water and stability).

This thoughtful study notes that the Rules of Engagement (ROE) have not been well developed for PMCs, and that the seam between PMCs and the US military and the US Department of State are thoroughly screwed up to non-existent.

He notes that in addition to Iraqi disdain for Paul Bremer, there is acute Iraqi consciousness for the fact that in Iraq, PMCs are the top of the food chain and have everything, including jobs, which Iraqis have not received in the so-called "peace."

This author and this book SMASHES both the Rolling Stone article on "Heavy Metal Mercenaries" and the self-promoting and largely false book The Hunt for Bin Laden: Task Force Dagger.

Passing comments document the different "tribes" in the PMC world, the fact that many PMCs are paying their US citizens with offshore accounts that evade taxes, that laptops not guns are the focus for many individuals (their lifeline to family and reality), that London is the center of gravity for PMC activity, that over 400 PMCs have been killed in Iraq (contract this with 2,500 from US military), and that the bottom line for PMCs is that they are largely ethical, moral, professional, and committed.

I especially liked the author's closing contrast between the British PMC model "it's about minimum force, Old Boy" and the US model, "high tech max force" approach.

Immortal quote on page 227: "The post 9/11 world opened up a Pandora's box of prospects for adventurers, conmen, and opportunists...."

I will end with three points the author brings out:

1) PMC Blackwater is smart, focused on the bomb makers not the bomb deliverers.

2) Everybody is making money in Iraq (that is a US citizen) EXCEPT the US uniformed soldiers actually fighting the war.

3) PMCs are, like guns, something that can be used for good or bad.


Robert Young Pelton is extraordinary, and this book is the cutting edge of reality: PMCs. He is unique for his preparation and for walking in the PMC shoes.
ramana
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Do PMC operatives get Geneva Convention protection as contractors of the USG? And by same token come under the GC rules of enagagement?
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by pgbhat »

ramana wrote:Do PMC operatives get Geneva Convention protection as contractors of the USG? And by same token come under the GC rules of enagagement?
Nope not the same as regular military, IIRC this was discussed in the movie The Shadow Company , which by the way is a wonderful documentary (Narrated by Gerard Butler. ;) ) ..... If I remember correctly if under contract from government they have to adhere to Geneva convention..... although there might be special limitations which might apply to them.
Last edited by pgbhat on 26 Aug 2009 00:46, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

pgbhat wrote:
ramana wrote:Do PMC operatives get Geneva Convention protection as contractors of the USG? And by same token come under the GC rules of enagagement?
Nope not the same as regular military, IIRC this was discussed in the movie The Shadow Company , which by the way is a wonderful documentary. Narrated by Gerard Butler. ;)
That means non-Geneva Convention approved methods can be outsourced to these individiuals with plausible deniability. Atleast do they come under home country rules?
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by shravan »

ramana wrote:That means non-Geneva Convention approved methods can be outsourced to these individiuals with plausible deniability.
Onlee America has the rights to do that because they are Super TFTA's... :P
Atleast do they come under home country rules?
They are doing their jobs and i think they must be getting the orders from Pentagon.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by pgbhat »

ramana wrote: That means non-Geneva Convention approved methods can be outsourced to these individiuals with plausible deniability. Atleast do they come under home country rules?
Yup there is a nice piece on Mark Thatcher, who hired Nick Du Toit, a south african mercenary, to over throw a government in Equatorial Guinea. Nick was caught and has been sentenced to prison..... anyways one gets a lot of nuggets about various uses of PMCs over the years. Shadow Company interviews serving/retired mercenaries. (mostly Brit/RSA/Ex Rhodesia LI) etc.
Last edited by pgbhat on 26 Aug 2009 00:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Neues Deutschland, Germany

CIA Scam: Rent a Killer!

http://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel ... iller.html

By René Heilig
Translated By Ron Argentati
21 August 2009
Edited by Katy Burtner
Germany - Neues Deutschland - Original Article (German)

Employees of the controversial private American security company Blackwater were hired to do part of the dirty work begun as a CIA liquidation program. The mercenary organization, now renamed Xe Services, assisted in planning, training and overseeing the liquidation action.

“Idema’s people fired a few bursts into the ceiling of the room, then they herded the women together into another room ... the mercenary commander pulled a sack over 50-year-old constitutional judge Mohammed Siddig’s head and tied his hands behind his back. The same was done to six of his male family members and a handyman who was present. Then the eight men were shoved into the cars in front of the house ... When the Afghan police finally stormed the private torture chamber twelve days later, three of the Afghan men were still hanging by their feet from the ceiling ...”

That was how Franz Hutsch described this not atypical action by U.S. mercenary special forces in Kabul in his book “Exporting Death.” During his trial, mercenary commander Idema testified: “We were in direct contact via e-mail, fax and telephone with the office of U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld on a daily basis ... they knew what we were doing here.”

Such squads were sent out not only by the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), but also by the Central Intelligence Agency, all under direct command of the president of the United States. These so-called “contractors,” the preferred designation for the mercenaries, were ordered to carry out the grossest dirty work. The New York Times reported these stories based on information received from current and former employees of the U.S. government. According to them, terrorist leaders were to be hunted down and murdered as part of a secret CIA program uncovered several weeks earlier. Nonetheless, it is claimed that despite spending millions of dollars on the program, it failed to result in the capture or killing of a single terrorist.

Under the Bush administration, many security contracts were awarded to private firms, also among them contracts for the interrogation of prisoners. Such practices also shine new light on the German Intelligence Service’s (BND) role in these interrogations. In connection with several kidnappings, a certain “Sam” – who spoke faultless German – was repeatedly mentioned. No one was ever able to positively identify him, but since citizens of many nations are common among the mercenaries, it’s highly likely that “Sam” could be a German citizen. That could be justification for reconvening the board of inquiry into the matter as has been demanded by the Left Party and the Greens.

In order to keep the program as secret as possible, the “Agency” (CIA) did not contract with the Blackwater firm, but rather directly with Blackwater’s personnel, among them Blackwater CEO Erik Prince. The involvement of non-governmental personnel in a program that made life and death decisions gave U.S. agencies concern over accountability for such actions, according to anonymous government sources at the New York Times.

In January 2009, Blackwater’s license to operate inside Iraq was revoked because of shootings in September 2007, during which several contractors opened fire on Iraqi civilians, killing seventeen.

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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by MurthyB »

The other aspect of Hinduism and dharmic faiths that needs to be emphasized is its inherent libertarian spiritual philosophy. To that extent, we have someone like Gandhi who sleeps in a room full of nekkid wimmins to become "master of his domain", while you have a muslim (or xtian)fundamentalist who wants to cover up women in case they tempt you. In general, the Indic accepts that the world is full of sin and temptation and it's his own perogative to conquer it while the non-Indic blames society and wants to control society and wants society to help him achieve his spiritual aims through top-down control. One is libertarian in approach, while the other is socialist bordering on communist :mrgreen:
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

Cheney Feels Hounded by US Justice Dept:

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/08 ... -tortured/
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

RajeshA wrote:It is only in Britain, that when one says 'Asian' one first refers to "South Asians'. AFAIK, in all other parts of world, Asians first refers to 'East Asians'. So Indians are Indians, whereas Chinese are Asians.
Yes, just recently a corn-fed US Amerikhan at work told me that since I was from India, I was not Asian. My reply was, I eat rice and I have a small d**k, that makes me Asian. He just shut up after that. Another point they make is not considering Catholics to be Chriastian. Like: I am a christian but Jack is catholic.
Gautam
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

g.sarkar wrote:
RajeshA wrote:It is only in Britain, that when one says 'Asian' one first refers to "South Asians'. AFAIK, in all other parts of world, Asians first refers to 'East Asians'. So Indians are Indians, whereas Chinese are Asians.
Yes, just recently a corn-fed US Amerikhan at work told me that since I was from India, I was not Asian. My reply was, I eat rice and I have a small d**k, that makes me Asian. He just shut up after that. Another point they make is not considering Catholics to be Chriastian. Like: I am a christian but Jack is catholic.
Gautam
'
My Mangalore christian classmate when he came to US was asked what was his religion. He told his American collegues that he was Catholic. They said he must be fundamentalist and my friend was shocked at the image Catholics have.
American chrisitans have gone through secularization over 100 years ago.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Anyway there is severe angst among the Christians in US. A number of re-evangelization programs are being run to bring back the fallen flock. Eg. Phoenix and Corpus christi Texas had the local churches run "Welcome back Home" ads and programs to bring back thier flock. Other churches in other cities are planning repeats.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Sanku »

harbans wrote: I think the unthinkable is happening..instead of or neighbors becoming Dharmic..the Yanks are well on the way certainly :mrgreen:
Vivekananda when he came from the World religion conference said that while India loses Hinduism, Hinduism in it real sense is being practiced in America.

I dont say this often because the handle it will give to MUTUs
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Sad news about Teddy K.The Kennedy family were great friends of India and Teddy K was a great Democrat.A huge loss to the US of A.

Obit quote from the Guardian.
When he first took the senate seat previously held by John Kennedy in 1962, he was seen as something of a political lightweight who owed his ascent to his famous name.

Yet during his nearly half century in the chamber, Kennedy became known as one of Washington's most effective senators, crafting legislation by working with lawmakers and presidents of both parties, and finding unlikely allies.

At the same time, he held fast to liberal causes deemed anachronistic by the centrist "New Democrats," and was a lightning rod for conservative ire.

He helped enact measures to protect civil and labour rights, expand healthcare, upgrade schools, increase student aid and contain the spread of nuclear weapons.

"There's a lot to do," Kennedy told Reuters in 2006. "I think most of all it's the injustice that I continue to see and the opportunity to have some impact on it."
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

Phillip ji,
If you find any tid-bits of ways in which the Kennedy family were friends of India, please do post.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by sunnyP »

Have mixed feelings re Kennedy given his part in Mary Jo Kopechene's death.

That said, credit where credit is due and Kennedy's service to American politics for so many decades is something we're unlikely to see again. A fine public servant he was.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by putnanja »

THIS LAND IS MY LAND - A hapless South Asian and his American border-buddies
...
Unlike, say, the airport authorities in the UK or Germany, the American border-buddies continue to be trained to defecate on anyone who they can possibly defecate upon. It doesn’t matter who the president is, Reagan, Bush, Obama, it doesn’t matter what the purported US foreign policy happens to be at the moment, it doesn’t matter if the US mint has brought out stamps to honour Woody Guthrie or Muddy Waters, some things about the land of the free and the home of the brave don’t change: if you’re South Asian, if you have a beard, if your name contains an Islamic element, your first encounter with the United States of America is likely to come in the shape of an armed and uniformed man who is scared, illiterate, robotic, a man who is trained to be blinkered and trapped in extreme parochial boorishness.
...
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

According to Thomas Patterson,author of the book "Kennedy's quest for victory:American Foreign Policy 1961-63",India was "elevated to a diplomatic priority of the first order" by the Kennedy administration because of the "Central problem we face in Asia,is the existence of Communist China",wrote Chester Bowles,Under-Sec. for State to JFK.Bowles insisted that India and Japan take up its responsibility on facing China (thought to get more aggressive given the Sino-Soviet split,very prescient as China invaded India in '62) given America's "limitations of power" and to "take up the responsibility of guaranteeing Asian security against China's agressions".

Kennedy referred to Nehru's "soaring idealism" in his Stae of Union address and apppointed well-known friends of India to key diplomatic positions.Chester Bowles as Under-Sec. of State,Philip Talbot as Asst.Sec. of State for Near Eastern and S.Asian Affairs,and John K Galbraith as US Ambassador to India.Sen.John Cooper,former US ambassador to India told Kennedy afterwards that Indo-US relations were "the best I have known" after meeting Nehru at Delhi.JFK exchanged several very friendly letters with Nehru during the early days of his presidency too,which Nehru reciprocated with equal effusion.Even LBJ visited India during this time and these visits and relations had the "opposite effect" in Pakistan.

Ayub tried very hard to get the US to force Nehru to "settle" Kashmir,but the US resisted saying that it had limited influence ovver Nehru.The Pakis then tried to project themselves as US military allies,thanks to their military treaties with it,but the US said that they had to encourage good relations with the "Non-Aligned nations".Upset over India's use of force in Goa to oust the Portugese,the US under JFK still said that Indo-US relations were "sound".The US warned Pak about getting too close to China and even on the eve of the Sino-Indian War had to deal with strains in its relations with Pak that flowed from its "manifest tilt towards India".The US hope was that with the Chinese aggression against India,there was a "one-time" opportunity that both India and Pak could resolve peacefully the Kashmir dispute with US assistance.Averell Harriman was sent to the sub-continent to effect this goal.It worked.India and Pak resumed limited talks about Kashmir,Pak did not object to the limited US military aid to India and emergency military aid of $60million proposed,which the US found neccessary to provide as India was buying MIG-21 fighters from the Soviets.The US aim was to evolve a de-facto military alliance,even a formal furure alliance,with India.However,McNamara,Rusk and Talbot shot it down and India received reduced US aid.Nehru and his top aides stung already by cuts in US economic aid calculated that Washington would NEVER meet New Delhi's mounting military needs and turned to the Soviets for military supplies,"thus deepening a realtionship with Moscow, a situation which has remained to this day".

How the situation of the early '60s have come round to us today once again,when we are faced with a return of imminent Chinese agression in Asia,in particular against India.Apart from the IDR papaer on the reasons why China will use the current situ to contemplate an attack against India,mirroring BR warnings on the subject for quite some time,the Chinese acts on the ground in all sectors of the Indo-Sino boundary are rife with reports of Chinese intrusions which are increasing by the day.China has been known in the past to use these intrusions to "regularise" its territorial claims of Indian territory.With a PM who appears weak and indecisive at the helm of India today,an even weaker PM than Nehru with none of his international reputation,the Chinese perhaps feel that the fruit of another strike against India is ripening.The increased internal chaos thanks to their proxies,the Naxalites/Maoists and the intrigue from the Nepalese Maoists indicate that there is a serious crisis in the offing.

With all-weather friend Pak in curerent dire straits and under the US's thumb,China will try and teach India another lesson in geo-politics in order to re-establish itself as the undisputed power in Asia and the only rival to the US.With its huge demand for fossil fuels growing each year and production slowing down as well,the Chinese require rthe Indian sub-continent to be "neutralised" in order for it to make its planned drive into the Gulf ,the Middle East and Central Asia to secure its energy supplies.This implies a planned Chinese military debacle for India of a magnitude that will prevent us from preventing China achieve its military ambitions in the future.Is history about to repeat itself? Does the "O-Team" have the same affection for India s JFK did? I fear not,as we are seeing from its molly-coddling of Pak and the changing attitude of its administration when compared with that of Dubya Bush.It is why China believes that there exists a "window of opportunity" during the reign of Obama and that of the good Dr. Man Mohan Singh,infamous for his "surrender" at S-Al-S!.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by joshvajohn »

India foresees sharp rise in nuclear power
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 928316.cms

The present government policy is not at all a matured policy nor a well thought strategic mind behind the decisions. So there was an isolation of India in G8 but it is an old topic.

India has to develop a strategic thinking group regarding foreign policy. It should not be done merely through officialdom.

Relating to each country there is a need for a good intellectual group who are related to these countries but also put them together to develop a proper stretegy for international relationship.

IT is essential to keep a good relationship with US and UK at this stage and step up the nuclear power links. Militarily too it is better to keep a good tie with all who are interested to help us to develop a good defense systems.

For China India is no more a threat and even not a matter for discussion as India herself does not have any strategy to counter any threats except from Pakistan and India is obsssessed with Pakistan wthout realising a wider international role India needs to play elsewhere.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Ted Kennedy was no friend of India. His true feelings came out during the debate and passage of the US-India nuclear cooperation bill. He not only voted against it, but campaigned against it in the US Senate. These people are the so-called friends of India. We still have to thank George Bush for bringing this whole matter to light to show who India's friends are in the US Congress.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »


JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters
by James W. Douglass
James W. Douglass (Author)

In James W. Douglass' outstanding new book, "JFK and the Unspeakable," the author explains the title in his introduction. Coined by spiritual writer Thomas Merton, The Unspeakable refers to "an evil whose depth and deceit seemed to go beyond the capacity of words to describe." Regarding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, the Unspeakable succeeded due to deniability by the nation's citizens of the horrifying truth of the event and to plausible deniability by the government agencies responsible for the murder. (Vincent Bugliosi's recent fictional paperweight is a perfect example of the plausible deniability that allows the Unspeakable to thrive.)

Many excellent books have proven that the assassination of JFK was the result of a conspiracy. Douglass verifies the certainty of the conspiracy and, as the subtitle of the book states, explains "Why He Died and Why It Matters." He scrutinizes the historical facts surrounding the assassination, from the creation of the CIA to the gradual obliteration of the freedoms upon which this nation was founded.

This book is primarily the story of John F. Kennedy who changes from a Cold Warrior to an altruistic leader willing to risk his life to ensure that the world's children will not become victims of a nuclear catastrophe. Equal time is spent on JFK's presidency as on the assassination but one of the many rewards of this book is the author's capacity to show the relationship between his policies and his death. And the book is a tragedy because it gradually becomes obvious that each step he makes toward peace steadily increases the hatred of his enemies who will eventually betray him.

It is also the story of the designated patsy, Lee Harvey Oswald. Moved around the country like a pawn by government agencies (as was the second "Oswald"), he was being set up as the scapegoat. Enter some despicable characters, including David Atlee Philips, James Hosty and, of course, Michael and Ruth Paine. Simultaneously, the Soviet Union was being set up as the evil empire behind the assassination, along with its satellite Cuba.

Douglass credibly illustrates the origin of the Crime of the Century. During President Truman's administration, the CIA was empowered to be a paramilitary organization with unlimited powers. Truman's successor, President Eisenhower, fell out of favor with the CIA when he planned a summit meeting with Soviet Premier Khrushchev. This was cancelled after a U.S. spy plane crashed in Russia. Eisenhower had reportedly ordered such flights cancelled and had his suspicions about who had ruined his peace plan. He subsequently issued his warning about the "military industrial complex" in his farewell address. But he didn't defy "this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry." He left that task to his successor, JFK.

The Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba was planned by the CIA to regain control of the island and to re-open the casinos for organized crime. President Kennedy refused to provide air support for the Cuban brigade because he knew that he had been lied to by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and by the CIA; the invasion had been designed to fail without U.S. support but they hadn't told this to JFK who refused to fall into their trap. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, JFK once again enraged the CIA and the Joint Chiefs by resisting their tremendous pressure on him to take military action which would have led to nuclear war.

Following that crisis, JFK became intent on ending the Cold War by establishing a peaceful relationship with the Soviet Union. However, many CIA and Pentagon personnel believed that it was better to be "dead than red" and that it was preferable to destroy civilization rather than let the Communists rule. They also knew that war generated billions of dollars into the arms industry. As a result, they would repeatedly subvert the President's policies and isolate him within his own government. Enter some more despicable characters: Richard Bissell, Charles Cabell, Henry Cabot Lodge, Lyman Lemnitzer, Curtis LeMay and perhaps the most contemptible of all, Allen Dulles. Ironically, JFK learned to trust Khrushchev more than people within his own government.

At American University on June 10, 1963, JFK spoke about his desire for world peace. He communicated his resolve to form a new relationship with Khrushchev. He spoke about the necessity of a pursuit toward disarmament. He related his intentions to establish a Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. He acknowledged his country's past faults and recognized the Russian people as wanting peace as much as the American people. "And we are all mortal," he stated. Though this extremely important speech was ignored in the United States, it was disseminated throughout the Soviet Union, per order of Khrushchev, who was prepared to respond favorably to JFK's peace initiative. The speech also certified JFK's death warrant. With so many powerful enemies opposing his policies and hating him, JFK didn't have a chance as he was being maneuvered into the crossfire in Dallas.

President Kennedy was aware of the power of his enemies and he knew the dangers facing him. But he persevered and mandated that all U.S. personnel would be withdrawn from Vietnam; he was determined to never send in combat troops even if this meant defeat. He also refused to intervene militarily in Laos. He exchanged private letters with Khrushchev, which infuriated the CIA, and secretly initiated plans to attain rapproachement with Cuba, which further incensed the Agency. Cuba's Fidel Castro, whom the CIA hated as intensely as it hated Kennedy, was equally eager to begin an American-Cuba dialogue. In fact, Castro was meeting with a JFK representative when the President was murdered. JFK died a martyr and the forces of evil that killed him also killed his vision of peace.

Lyndon Johnson, the CIA's ally, assumed the presidency. He cancelled talks with Khrushchev and refused Castro's pleas to continue the dialogue. He reversed JFK's withdrawal plan from Vietnam as well as his plan to neutralize Laos. The military industrial complex took control of the country. The policy of plausible deniability led the way to assassinations of foreign leaders, the overthrowing of foreign governments and horrors committed all over the globe. If JFK had not been murdered, we would not have had the prolongation of the Cold War, the Vietnam War, Watergate, the purported War on Terror and the steady moral deterioration of America. Interestingly, one month after JFK's assassination, President Truman wrote an article for The Washington Post cautioning about the threat of the CIA taking over America.

The author meticulously examines the evidence and draws conclusions which ring with unassailable truth: (1) The CIA coordinated and implemented he assassination of President Kennedy, an act of treason which destroyed democracy in the U.S. (2) The Warren Commission was created to propagate lies to conceal the truth from the American people. (3)There has been a continued cover-up by successive administrations and their stooges in the mass media. (4)The murder of JFK is directly related to the current domination of the American people by powerful oppressors within a shadow government that will continue to insist that only sustained war can keep the country safe from its enemies, never admitting that they themselves are the supreme evil.

This is an exceptional book that will be used by future historians to determine the truth about the assassination and how it changed America. And it will also be used to honor John F. Kennedy as a courageous president who believed in doing God's work on earth. In doing so, he came into conflict with the Unspeakable and his life was extinguished.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

RajeshA wrote:Phillip ji,
If you find any tid-bits of ways in which the Kennedy family were friends of India, please do post.
Last year there was picture book released in memory of jackie Kenneddy. Of the hundred pages about five or six were of her visit to New Delhi. The pictures show she was the happiest in thoe few pages.

Gautam tell them Jesus Christ was Asian and see their reaction. If they argue tell them Israel and Jerusalem are in West Asia not in Europe.
Duangkomon
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Duangkomon »

harbans wrote:Check this out:

This is part of an elaborate series of parodies to validate what's called the Poe's Law.

From urban dictionary:
Poe's Law

Similar to Murphy's Law, Poe's Law concerns internet debates, particularly regarding religion or politics.

"Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

In other words, No matter how bizzare, outrageous, or just plain idiotic a parody of a Fundamentalist may seem, there will always be someone who cannot tell that it is a parody, having seen similar REAL ideas from real religious/political Fundamentalists.
:| :P :rotfl:
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

WRT to Ted Kennedy one must also remember that he supported India's interests in *many* occasions. Just one example, check out his record around 1971 .. He was one of the first (certainly the first important figure in US) to talk about Pakistani army's genocide in Bangladesh, how it was impacting India . Actually he traveled across west Bengal (and other parts of India) and documented the plight of Bangladeshi refugees in a scathing report on American policy. He raised the issue in congress about how Hindu Bangladeshis were targeted by the Pakistani army...

Quick looking in google gives these quotes...
....one of the most appalling tides of human misery in modern times...
Nothing is more clear, or more easily documented, than the systematic campaign of terror - and its genocidal consequences - launched by the Pakistani army on the night of march 25th, ....Hardest hit have been members of the Hindu community who have been robbed of their lands and shops, systematically slaughtered and, in some places, painted with yellow patches marked 'H'. ....All of this has been officially sanctioned, ordered and implemented under martial law from Islamabad.

America's heavy support of Islamabad is nothing short of complicity in the human and political tragedy ....,
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by harbans »

This is part of an elaborate series of parodies to validate what's called the Poe's Law.

Duang Ji, i am aware of Poe's law and mentioned it on this page, around 10th post from top. It's not Poe's laws' validation, because you cannot validate it. It's like saying i'm validating Murphy's because Silvermans paradox does'nt work. Or validating Silverman's paradox because Murphy's did'nt kick in. It's too real for 15 ear old kids to act so well as to parody something as subtle as Poe's law. Sara's reaction was genuine SDRE shock at being approached on faith in this manner..there's another video post this, when these girls take Sara out to Church. IF anone has an doubts that will clear it up. People who are talking Poe's are too ashamed that this sort of thing is exposed. They're making a pathetic attempt to speak up for Molly and her regular friend..
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

harbans wrote: Sara's reaction was genuine SDRE shock at being approached on faith in this manner..there's another video post this, when these girls take Sara out to Church. IF anone has an doubts that will clear it up. People who are talking Poe's are too ashamed that this sort of thing is exposed. They're making a pathetic attempt to speak up for Molly and her regular friend..
Trickery and deceit is part of the EJ culture. When it gets exposed they get embarrassed.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Duangkomon »

harbans wrote:This is part of an elaborate series of parodies to validate what's called the Poe's Law.

Duang Ji, i am aware of Poe's law and mentioned it on this page, around 10th post from top. It's not Poe's laws' validation, because you cannot validate it. It's like saying i'm validating Murphy's because Silvermans paradox does'nt work. Or validating Silverman's paradox because Murphy's did'nt kick in. It's too real for 15 ear old kids to act so well as to parody something as subtle as Poe's law. Sara's reaction was genuine SDRE shock at being approached on faith in this manner..there's another video post this, when these girls take Sara out to Church. IF anone has an doubts that will clear it up. People who are talking Poe's are too ashamed that this sort of thing is exposed. They're making a pathetic attempt to speak up for Molly and her regular friend..
oops.... :mrgreen: guess I should've read all the posts. There is too much histrionics and selective editing (check the asian african part) going on in that video to take it seriously. This is put together deliberately with mischief in mind to get a reaction. I say this because this reminded me of the kind of hilarious conversations that used to happen with unsuspecting folk after imbibing the native flora with girls of similar age.

For the people who reacted to it as some yeevil EJ gunning for yindoo soul, I would say it validates the said law.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Duangkomon wrote:
oops.... :mrgreen: guess I should've read all the posts. There is too much histrionics and selective editing (check the asian african part) going on in that video to take it seriously.
There is more to it. There is racial sterotyping here whether by accident or deliberate
This is not normal for americans but what is inside their mind is showing up in this video
But children are being raised as EJs now and they are going back to home schooling.
One of my freinds daughter went thru the same thing. The EJ girl is doing home schooling now.
Are you Asian or African.
Why is your skin dark
Around 1:28, the girl in the middle says "Why aren't your eyes pointed? Or slanted?"

The answer
Ask a Japanese person to describe the physical attributes of a Americans, and he will likely respond by saying they have light skin, hair, and eyes. Similarly, many Americans, when hearing the term "Asian" will picture a person with Mongol features, when obviously this is not the case. Americans aren't necessarily more xenophobic or ignorant than people from other countries (though they are often fatter).



If this is a joke you need to come clean. If this isnt, you have some serious racism issues. Notice that she didnt tell you what you believe is wrong, that was what you said to her. She was understanding of your beliefs, you attacked hers. God will not reward you for that.


"Poe's Law" a Christian theological principle: "Elements of the Gospel speak to different levels of spiritual concern in different cultures at different times." It's taught to modern evangelists as a way to better target the message of the Gospel to different audiences for maximum salvific efficacy. The law was named after theologian Dr. Harry Lee Poe, a cousin of Edgar Allan Poe, who promoted the concept in his book "The Gospel and Its Meaning: A Theology for Evangelism and Church Growth."
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Duangkomon »

Acharya, these are not your EJs. They are just a few potheads having fun. There is more chance of that girl wearing the shades being stoned off her face and more of a weed harvestor than a soul harvestor.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Duangkomon wrote:Acharya, these are not your EJs. They are just a few potheads having fun. There is more chance of that girl wearing the shades being stoned off her face and more of a weed harvestor than a soul harvestor.
I have met some girls similar to the one in the video
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by pgbhat »

Acharya wrote:
Duangkomon wrote:Acharya, these are not your EJs. They are just a few potheads having fun. There is more chance of that girl wearing the shades being stoned off her face and more of a weed harvestor than a soul harvestor.
I have met some girls similar to the one in the video
My ex-roomie is an EJ..... but not even remotely as dumb as the girls in that video. :|
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