India-US News and Discussion

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Johann
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Johann »

ramana wrote:So while Lincoln emancipated the slaves, LB Johnson emancipated Southern society as a whole and made them legitimate to participate in national dialogue.
Johnson couldn't have done it without the incredible national solidarity that followed Kennedy's murder. Everything that Kennedy supported got a massive boost, from civil rights, the moon race, the special forces, the obsession with SE Asia, all of it.
Rudradev wrote:Wasn't Haqqani removed from his post as TSP's ambassador to the US? After the Kerry-Lugar dhamaal? Or was there just a lot of baying for his blood at the time which he managed to survive?
Oh he's still in the saddle. If he goes its a sign of Zardari's weakening hand.

The PA loathes him - He's been far too anti-Army, and far too close to the Americans for their taste

Pakistani ambassadors to the US are usually retired generals who protect the PA's interests.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Ramana,

If you recall, Ombaba nominated Sanjay Gupta of CNN to be the US Surgeon General, but Gupta turned down the post, not because he couldn't be vetted (which was easy), but because he didn't want to become the lightening rod for the Republican right should controversy arise. The post has little authority, but has a very high public media profile. To Ombaba's credit, he has nominated several desis, but whenever the position is of any influence, it is immediately countermanded with some other undesirable action. We were pleased by Rajiv Shah's appointment hoping he could influence USAID funds going to TSP, but then Robin Raphel was nominated. I hate to say this, but of the desis who were nominated, how many of them really care about their origin being from an enlightened civilization? And how many of them are married to other Indians or have deliberately changed their religion for convenience like Bobby Jindal? It may be more of the fact that these individuals are highly qualified and they fit the mold for the Democratic party.

Rudra,

Yes you are right. Those of us NRIs who voted & supported Ombaba have the blood of Indian children on our hands. It is with deep regret that this has happened and will seek his electoral defeat in 2012.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by harbans »

I think someone in the US administration recommends that to please India, it's just Ok to appoint a few Indians in some obscure posts and give lip service praise to keep India in the good books. Obama is buying that line of thinking/ propaganda in dealing with India. There will be nothing substantial of value coming out in Obamas tenure as President, as far as India is concerned.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Mort thanks but no angst. thanks, ramana
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Ramanaji,

There is no angst, only regret voting for the fellow as he's really let us down. US-India relations have been set back from a strategic PoV.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Again what good is done by expressing?

Vidhi, vidhata.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

Mort Walker wrote:Yes you are right. Those of us NRIs who voted & supported Ombaba have the blood of Indian children on our hands. It is with deep regret that this has happened and will seek his electoral defeat in 2012.
Ah, you keep making such posts. Obama has not proved to be an Idi Amin or a Hitler, yet. Well it might be very well your opinion, but I find it highly inappropriate for someone to accuse me of having blood of Indian children (or for that matter any other human). I did not vote, but did cheer for him. So I stand in the category of NRI.

I can extend similar twisted logic and claim anybody who has left the Indian shores and works in a MNC has in some way helped the strategic interest of other powers there by having blood on their hands. I can extend similarly and accuse people who have voted for INC (or for that matter BJP) too. Since there is so much consensus that Unkil along with Britain have systematically kept Bharat down every since independence; then I could also claim anybody who has settled in these countries or continues to live in them are traitors. So can be said for people living in SA and elsewhere.


Did Unkil systematically keep Bharat bogged down, or not? Or is Obama the first and only President to do that? Well you might be disappointed at your decision and might regret it, but don't go spraying emotionally charged words at others.

Mods: How does this sound?
Those of us NRIs who continue to live in alien lands that have routinely kept India strategically down have blood of Indian children on our hands?
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Prem »

Big O is in Asia and MMS will be here Turkey time. Guess Obama's new Asia policy will be clearly visisble/defined after this. The big question is how long HIllary gonna be working with him ? She seems to have different agenda from Obama.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by vijayk »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091113/ap_ ... d_shooting
Lawmaker: Hasan had communications with Pakistan
The Army psychiatrist charged with killing 13 people in a shooting spree at Fort Hood made or accepted wire transfers with Pakistan, a country wracked by Muslim extremist violence, a Republican congressman said Friday.
Texas Rep. Michael McCaul, the ranking GOP member of the House Homeland Security Intelligence Subcommittee, said people outside the intelligence community with direct knowledge of the transfers also told him Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan also had communications with Pakistan.

"He may have friends or relatives or whatever and this could be totally (innocent)," McCaul said in a telephone interview. "But if he is wiring money to Pakistan, that could be terrorist financing. If he was receiving money from Pakistan, that is more significant."
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by vijayk »

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?262847
The Chicago Conspiracy

Read this fully...
Headley had earlier been arrested on October 3, 2009, when he was about to leave on a visit to Pakistan to discuss the plans for the Denmark attack with Ilyas Kashmiri of the Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami (HUJI) in Pakistan. The FBI recovered from his checked-in baggage video recordings made by Headley during two preparatory visits to Denmark after October 2008. The affidavit was filed by the FBI in the Northern District court of Illinois.
(c). He interceded with the Pakistani Consul-General in Chicago in an attempt to get a five-year visa for Headley whom he falsely described as a White American. The Consul-General, Rana and Headley had attended the army cadet school of the Punjab Government at Hasan Abdal. The Consul-General had known Headley by his pre-2006 Pakistani name of Dawood Gilani. He did not know that Gilani, whom he had known, and Headley, "the white American" about whom Rana had spoken to him over telephone were one and the same. Rana wanted a five-year visa to be issued to Headley without Headley having to visit the Consulate.
It is, however, clear that Individual A is an important person, who enjoys the confidence of Ilyas Kashmiri and could speak with authority on behalf of Ilyas. Headley's conversations with Individual A clearly bring out his admiration for Ilyas Kashmiri and his preference for working with Ilyas than with the LET. He describes the LET as an organisation with "rotten guts", which is not prepared to take risks. This is apparently because the LET is interested only in a terrorist attack in India and does not want to get involved in a terrorist attack in Denmark or in any other Western country.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

SwamyG,

I will no longer post that line as Ramanaji has most kindly hinted me not to from his posts. However, I do applaud you in your attempt to obfuscate the matter and become an apologist for the chosen one like many others in this thread. Ombaba is a shrewd politician, and although many NRIs may agree with much of his domestic policies (including myself), he has injected billions of unaccounted dollars to TSP not seen since the likes of the Reagan administration with Bob Casey in charge of the CIA. You appear to be incapable of distinguishing US domestic policies from strategic policies which have a more lasting impact. I have tried to educate you and others to see the reality, but you always seem to be caught up in US domestic politics for no apparent reason.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

SwamyG. I already told Mort what I thought. If you want private rumble go ahead. But not on BRF.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by arun »

French judge Jean-Louis Bruguière says that the US accepted the Pakistan Army running Lashkar terrorist training camps.

In dealing with the US, India needs to be cautiously alert else we will be sold down the river:
From Times Online
November 14, 2009

Pakistani Army ran Muslim extremist training camps, says anti-terrorist expert
Charles Bremner in Paris


The Pakistani Army ran training camps for a Muslim extremist group, at least until recently, with the acceptance of the US Central Intelligence Agency, according to France’s foremost anti-terrorist expert.

Jean-Louis Bruguière, who retired in 2007 after 15 years as chief investigating judge for counter-terrorism, reached this conclusion after interrogating a French militant who had been trained by Lashkar-e-Taiba and arrested in Australia in 2003.

In a book in his counter-terrorism years, Mr Bruguière says that Lashkar-e-Taiba, which was set up to fight India over disputed Kashmir territory, had become part of the international Islamic network of al-Qaeda.

Willy Brigitte, the suspect, told Mr Bruguière, that the Pakistani military were running the Lashkar-e-Taiba training camp where he spent 2½ months in 2001-02. Along with two Britons and two Americans, Brigitte was driven in a 4x4 through army roadblocks to the high-altitude camp where more than 2,000 men were being trained by Pakistani regular army officers, he said.

“The links between the Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Pakistani Army are more than close. Brigitte observed this twice,” Mr Bruguière said. “When the camp was resupplied, all the materiel was dropped off by Pakistani army helicopters. And there were regular inspections by the Pakistani Army and the CIA.” .............................

Times, UK
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by jaladipc »

Cmon guys,

1)CIA helped PA in training LeT to check India on KAshmir issue.
2)US favours China over India in Afghan.
3)Obama lands in every country except India.
4)G2.
5)US not to contain China.
6)No more bilateral naval exercises.
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Pull your sleves,tighten ur lases.We are all by our own.And people still advote to give defence deals to US.Why should we spend our money in buying equipment from a country which historically used to pour oil and keep training the terrorists to attack India? Will we freakish loosers never learn from the past?
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Jarita »

jaladipc wrote:.
.
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Pull your sleves,tighten ur lases.We are all by our own.And people still advote to give defence deals to US.Why should we spend our money in buying equipment from a country which historically used to pour oil and keep training the terrorists to attack India? Will we freakish loosers never learn from the past?

Because our current government is sold out. The election was orchestrated for exactly this outcome
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by arun »

Reuters blog post on Jean-Louis Bruguiere is a lot more explicit in spelling out that the US did sell India down the river by turning a blind eye to Pakistan’s support of terrorism targeting India:

Pakistan: Now or Never?

Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:41am EST ……………..

In a new book about his years fighting terrorism, former French investigating magistrate Jean-Louis Bruguiere casts fresh light on those early years after 9/11. At the time, he says, the Bush administration was so keen to get Pakistan’s help in defeating al Qaeda that it was willing to turn a blind eye to Pakistani support for militant groups like the Lashkar-e-Taiba, nurtured by the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency to fight India in Kashmir.
"DOUBLE STANDARDS"

Western countries were at the time accused by India of double standards in tolerating Pakistani support for Kashmir-focused organisations while pushing it to crack down on militant groups which threatened Western interests.
Read it all:

Reuters
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

US-India trade is not very high and subsequently relations are not that good either. Regardless of political party, until businesses see a benefit of trade, they will not influence those in power.

See the following:
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/bal ... .html#2008

Now see the following for China:
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by arun »

More on the detrimental to India mollycoddling of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan by the US.

I am more and more inclined to the view that the outwardly dysfunctional nature of the US-Pakistani relationship is just a veneer that masks what is a naturally fulfilling relationship between the two.

Simply put the US and Pakistan are the natural allies and any talk of the US and India being natural allies is bunkum.

I do hope our current Dr. Manmohan Singh led Government is alive to this fact:
US provides cover to Pakistan on proliferation, terrorism

Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN 15 November 2009, 03:13am IST

WASHINGTON: Not for the first time, the United States has downplayed reports of alleged Pakistan’s nuclear transgressions and promotion of terrorism even as American lawmakers are getting increasingly restive about a nominal ally having become the crossroad where terrorism and nuclear proliferation meet.

Because Washington is largely dependent on Islamabad for getting supplies to its 68,000 troops in landlocked Afghanistan, US officials are glossing over worrying reports ranging from clandestine nuclear transfers between Pakistan and China, to the Pakistani military running terror camps under the CIA's nose, in order not to offend Islamabad.

On Friday, US officials had to again bat for Pakistan after embarrassing disclosures on the eve of President Obama’s visit to Beijing about the long-running China-Pakistan nuclear nexus, even as two US Congressmen demanded a probe into the Pakistani connection of Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the alleged gunman who mowed down 13 people at a military base in Texas. ............................

TOI
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Arun,

Nixon wanted a hedge against the USSR and used China to do that by opening up relations. The Chinese used the opportunity by expanding their cheap exports to the US and making it dependent, but at the same time strengthening their economic base. Now there are influential individuals in US policy making that view China as a threat and want to use India as a hedge against it. It may not work out entirely as India wants, particularly when the US Democratic party is pro-China, but India should use the opportunity to expand its economic base.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

Obama's writ scarcely runs outside the municipal boundary of D.C.

such is the state of Rome.

the PRC will slap him around, humiliate him even more and send back with some pious words.

even bush v2.0 didnt look so weak when he made his numerous pilgrimages to render tribute to the han king.

between the saudis and chinese, there is very little room left for amirkhan to indulge in moralistic posturing.

atleast the pakis are refreshingly bold and upfront in declaring their lack of scruples and amoral nature - khan is
pathetic - like a beggar who talks of his past mansions and power.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Gerard »

INDIA’S STRATEGIC DEFENSE TRANSFORMATION: EXPANDING GLOBAL RELATIONSHIPS

By Lieutenant Colonel Brian K. Hedrick
Strategic Studies Institute
United States Army War College

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.ar ... .cfm?q=950
arun
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by arun »

arun wrote:More on the detrimental to India mollycoddling of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan by the US.

I am more and more inclined to the view that the outwardly dysfunctional nature of the US-Pakistani relationship is just a veneer that masks what is a naturally fulfilling relationship between the two.

Simply put the US and Pakistan are the natural allies and any talk of the US and India being natural allies is bunkum.

I do hope our current Dr. Manmohan Singh led Government is alive to this fact:
US provides cover to Pakistan on proliferation, terrorism

Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN 15 November 2009, 03:13am IST ............................

TOI
X Posted.

Besides cover on proliferation and terrorism, vast amounts of money as well. Money, the bulk of which was not siphoned off by the military elite of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan ,that will be used against India:
Malayappan wrote:Just as we thought things cannot get more open, we have this! A keeper. Good reference and citation value!

CIA says it gets its money's worth from Pakistani spy agency.

By Greg Miller, November 15, 2009, Los Angeles Times

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... full.story

Some excerpts -
CIA has funneled hundreds of millions of dollars to Pakistan's intelligence service since the Sept. 11 attacks, accounting for as much as one-third of the foreign spy agency's annual budget, current and former U.S. officials say.
U.S. officials have continued the funding because the ISI's assistance is considered crucial: Almost every major terrorist plot this decade has originated in Pakistan's tribal belt, where ISI informant networks are a primary source of intelligence.
Despite deep misgivings about the ISI, the official said, "there was no other game in town."
"There really are two ISIs," the former CIA operative said. "On the counter-terrorism side, those guys were in lock-step with us," the former operative said. "And then there was the 'long-beard' side. Those are the ones who created the Taliban and are supporting groups like Haqqani."
"We would show up in someone's office, offer our thanks, and we would leave behind a briefcase full of $100 bills, sometimes totaling more than a million in a single transaction," Tenet wrote.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by S.Gautam »

Is anything notable going to happen in the upcoming MMS visit to the U.S.? This seems like another Obama PR stunt with no substance but I'm afraid that our government, as usual, will fail to realize that and cave in to flattery and make concessions on nuclear or climate issues.

That would be rather ironic too as Singha is right regarding Obama's waning influence. American stature is in terminal decline. As bizarre as it is, I feel that _we_ are the one propping up U.S. authority and image with this little visit rather than the other way around.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

ramana wrote:SwamyG. I already told Mort what I thought. If you want private rumble go ahead. But not on BRF.
Ramana garu: I am surprised you ask me to take it private. He has said those words at least 4 times that I know of here in BRF. While calling somebody names does not bother me much; but implying blood on felow BRFite hands is too much.

But thanks for putting forth your thoughts to him. I don't want a private rumble as I don't think it is going to be fruitful or enjoyable. I will drop it here.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

The purpose of the MMS visit is the following:

1. Tell India to reduce military pressure on TSP's eastern front so TSP can move those military resources against the Taliban and AlQ.
2. Reduce India's presence in Afghanistan so that TSP dedicates its intelligence resources against the above.
3. Inform India not to antagonize TSP so that it can concentrate on eliminating AlQ which will benefit both India and the US.

This will have an impact on reducing US casualties in Afghanistan and will take pressure off of the US administration. Which can then claim political success in one critical area where it has failed in all others.

4. Encourage India to purchase US treasury notes to finance US government debt. Ombaba needs to hedge his bets in case China and OPEC countries reduce dollar exposure.
5. Encourage India to come on-board with the terms of the Copenhagen summit.
6. Push the sales of Boeing and goods from other defense contractors to India.
7. Encourage India to become a signatory of the NPT if it wants to operationalize the US-India nuclear agreement.
8. Encourage India to share more info about AlQ terrorists by providing the US more access to Indian sources.
9. Encourage India to reduce tariffs and duties on US goods.
10. Announce cultural interactions and invite NRIs to the White House to meet Ombaba and MMS together.

Now, out of all of this No. 10 is the most important. If this is successful, then accomplishing goals No. 1 - 9 will be much easier.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by S.Gautam »

Hah apparently the invite list includes Hollywood and Bollywood stars. And I thought this was some serious event for the two governments only. At least on the bright side, this might improve India's image among people that matter (read: potential investors). 70% of Americans probably don't know India exists and the other 30% think of it as a far away third world shithole. If we're lucky, maybe this effect will at least partially compensate for the massive concessions out gora-approval-seeking politicians are about to make (with the consent of our gora-approval-seeking Indian public and NRIs).
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Ameet »

Desis in the white house

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125842651845951591.html

They are the hottest tickets in town: invitations to the first official dinner at the White House.

The Obamas' guest of honor on Nov. 24 will be Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. Some invites already have gone out but many wannabe attendees are still waiting …somewhat anxiously.

Will they make the cut?

This being the Indian community—one of the most affluent and successful immigrant groups in the U.S.—everybody thinks they're a Somebody.

Back in July 2005, President Bush had less than 150 guests, many of them prominent donors to the Republican Party or the heads of companies from Infosys Technologies to Ethan Allen Inc. While the White House is declining to comment, people with knowledge of the affair say it could draw between 300 and 400. The White House remains mum on exactly who will be there, saying a guest list will be disclosed on the actual day.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Meanwhile KS says:

Partnering the US -Yes-We-Can

So this is what Shyam Saran's ten month long quest ended up - getting closer to US for fear of PRC!
The caterpillar will get eaten up and never mind the metamorphisis.

For those who dont get it read Shyam Saran's speech on linear thinking and all that in the US-PRC relationship and India thread.
...It is not my contention that November 24, 2009 will be a repeat of July 18, 2005. The world has, of course, changed. At that time the US was unquestionably the sole super power. China was a rising power whom the US wanted to be “tethered in Asia”, in the words of the then Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice. The US of George Bush promised to help India in its efforts to become a world-class power, presumably in an attempt to create a balance of power in Asia....
...Today, the US is perceived as a declining power in the wake of the financial crisis and China is seen as the second-ranking power striving hard to narrow the gap between itself and the US. Many Chinese and some Americans talk of a G-2 system of the US and China managing the international monetary system. China holds more than 800 billions of US dollar assets. The US expects China to continue to buy its treasury bonds. Predictions are that at current rates of growth, China will overtake the US as the world’s number one economy in terms of gross domestic product (GDP) in the next two-three decades. This situation is different from the one in July 2005, and the Indo-US summit has to address this reality...
Obviously, Obama would like the US to continue to be a pre-eminent economic, technological and military power even if it has to lose its place as the number one economy in terms of GDP.

Both Manmohan Singh and Obama believe that in the 21st century, knowledge will be the currency of power. China has four times the population of the US and is investing heavily in higher education and upgrading the skills of its population. Obama has warned fellow Americans that if they do not upgrade their education, they will have to face competition from Beijing and Bangalore.

If the US is to sustain its pre-eminence, it needs partners. This is highlighted by the fact that in this year’s Nobel prize list, a majority are Americans, and a majority among them are immigrant Americans! President Obama has already recognised the value of this aspect of Indo-US partnership.
What is in India’s national interest? Surely an international system in which the pre-eminent power is a pluralist democracy and not a totalitarian one-party state. India too needs a partnership for its accelerated economic growth. China was able to grow at such a rapid pace after 1980 because Chinese “princelings” (sons of top military officers and apparatchiks) linked up with US multinationals and exploited the US as a market, using the ties with those multinationals.

For the US, India is an English-speaking, pluralistic and democratic country, home of immigrants who have already made a notable contribution to US scientific and organisational innovativeness in a short period of three decades. US companies have developed a significant number of R&D centres in India and their experience of offsourcing has been positive with reciprocal Indian job creation in the US.

While China is likely to face the problem of an ageing population, India will have a youth bulge in the next two-three decades with a potential to convert it into a very productive workforce.

The US is about to embark upon a major healthcare reform which, it is feared, will increase its budgetary deficit and public debt. A major tie-up between US drug firms and the Indian pharma industry can result in significant cost reductions. It is expected that environment industries dealing in clean energy generation and energy efficient products will come up in coming years. The two countries can work together in this field.

Economic recovery after the financial crisis will be marked by the emergence of new, innovative technologies. Indo-US collaboration and cooperation in these areas may lead to cost reductions and creation of new markets. In other words, India is in a position to help sustain US pre-eminence in technological and economic spheres.

Unlike in 2005, this time India is in a position to offer the US a partnership of mutual benefit, which will serve both Indian and US national interests and also serve the cause of democracy. Just as the Sino-US economic partnership of the past three decades benefited both countries, till the recent economic crisis set in, and aided China’s growth, an Indo-US economic and social partnership can also be of mutual benefit to both democracies. {This ignores the fundamentals of why the US and PRC collaborated-It was the fear of SU which isnt there and the PRC can never be the existential threat the SU was. And was the US-PRC collaboration based on democracy or shared values? NO- it was based on real politick of common threat from SU.}

Looks like carrying knife to a gun fight. When the issues is challenging PRC hegemony, KS wants to submit Indian intellectual capital to the US for their recovery under rubric of partnership. The US can get that with PRC money anyway.

To me it looks like Shyam Saran's way has lost the fight. Its back to submission as a strategy.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote: Its back to submission as a strategy.
Welcome to the world of slavery
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

Acharya wrote:
ramana wrote: Its back to submission as a strategy.
Welcome to the world of slavery
In other words, India is no better than Pakistan. On that side military junta is doing it and this side political junta is doing it.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

ShyamSP wrote:
In other words, India is no better than Pakistan. On that side military junta is doing it and this side political junta is doing it.
All because of some more nuclear tests (TN mega bomb)
Officially India has lota class now
Last edited by svinayak on 18 Nov 2009 01:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Gus »

Back in July 2005, President Bush had less than 150 guests, many of them prominent donors to the Republican Party or the heads of companies from Infosys Technologies to Ethan Allen Inc.
Didn't that CEO had a son killed in jihad.. :?:
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

OK I highlighted the relevant parts of KS article here
K Subrahmanyam: Partnering with the US: Yes we can!

India is in a position to help sustain US pre-eminence in technological and economic spheres.
K Subrahmanyam / New Delhi November 18, 2009, 0:16 IST

A large number of commentators on Indo-US relations seem to think that when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh meets President Barack Obama next week in Washington DC, the latter will not be able to match his predecessor George Bush’s enthusiasm for India. This baseless pessimism is based on the view that the US is compelled to be on cordial terms with China because of economic compulsions. It is argued that India will be one more important Asian country for the US, perhaps a little higher in priority than Indonesia, but will not get the attention it got from George Bush.

This view, widely shared both in the government and the media, is not surprising. Go back to the first week of July 2005 and look at media comments then on the PM’s proposed visit to the US, and you will not find very optimistic predictions of the summit outcome before the visit. There was a lot of cynicism about the summit outcome even weeks and months after the event. George Bush did not become popular overnight.

It is not my contention that November 24, 2009 will be a repeat of July 18, 2005. The world has, of course, changed. At that time the US was unquestionably the sole super power. China was a rising power whom the US wanted to be “tethered in Asia”, in the words of the then Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice. The US of George Bush promised to help India in its efforts to become a world-class power, presumably in an attempt to create a balance of power in Asia.

US efforts to get India accepted as a state with nuclear weapons — “a responsible state with advanced nuclear technology” — and its campaign to get India the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) waiver in regard to the civil nuclear cooperation, were motivated by this consideration. Today, the US is perceived as a declining power in the wake of the financial crisis and China is seen as the second-ranking power striving hard to narrow the gap between itself and the US. Many Chinese and some Americans talk of a G-2 system of the US and China managing the international monetary system. China holds more than 800 billions of US dollar assets. The US expects China to continue to buy its treasury bonds. Predictions are that at current rates of growth, China will overtake the US as the world’s number one economy in terms of gross domestic product (GDP) in the next two-three decades. This situation is different from the one in July 2005, and the Indo-US summit has to address this reality.

China is modernising its military rapidly. Some Chinese talk of dividing the Pacific Ocean into two spheres of influence with the US. This will impact Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Australia.


During his election campaign, “candidate” Obama had said, “Having China as a banker is not good for US economy, it is not good for US global leadership. It is not good for US national security… History teaches us for a nation to remain pre-eminent military power, it must remain pre-eminent economic power.” Obviously, Obama would like the US to continue to be a pre-eminent economic, technological and military power even if it has to lose its place as the number one economy in terms of GDP.

Both Manmohan Singh and Obama believe that in the 21st century, knowledge will be the currency of power. China has four times the population of the US and is investing heavily in higher education and upgrading the skills of its population. Obama has warned fellow Americans that if they do not upgrade their education, they will have to face competition from Beijing and Bangalore. {Not the equal equal not noted by KS}

If the US is to sustain its pre-eminence, it needs partners. This is highlighted by the fact that in this year’s Nobel prize list, a majority are Americans, and a majority among them are immigrant Americans! President Obama has already recognised the value of this aspect of Indo-US partnership.

In a letter written last September to Prime Minister Singh, while still campaigning for presidency, Obama said: “We also should be working hand in hand to tap into the creativity and dynamism of our entrepreneurs, engineers and scientists to promote development of alternative sources of clean energy. Imagine our two democracies in action. Indian laboratories and industry collaborating with American laboratories and industry to discover innovative solutions to today’s energy problems. That is the kind of new partnership I would like to build with India as President.”

What is in India’s national interest? Surely an international system in which the pre-eminent power is a pluralist democracy and not a totalitarian one-party state. India too needs a partnership for its accelerated economic growth. China was able to grow at such a rapid pace after 1980 because Chinese “princelings” (sons of top military officers and apparatchiks) linked up with US multinationals and exploited the US as a market, using the ties with those multinationals.

For the US, India is an English-speaking, pluralistic and democratic country, home of immigrants who have already made a notable contribution to US scientific and organisational innovativeness in a short period of three decades. US companies have developed a significant number of R&D centres in India and their experience of offsourcing has been positive with reciprocal Indian job creation in the US.

While China is likely to face the problem of an ageing population, India will have a youth bulge in the next two-three decades with a potential to convert it into a very productive workforce. {Demographic dividend being offered to US as tribute. Most of the GOI officials were at the forefront of limiting Indian population and are now claiming credit for it and want to take advantage of it!}

The US is about to embark upon a major healthcare reform which, it is feared, will increase its budgetary deficit and public debt. A major tie-up between US drug firms and the Indian pharma industry can result in significant cost reductions. It is expected that environment industries dealing in clean energy generation and energy efficient products will come up in coming years. The two countries can work together in this field.

Economic recovery after the financial crisis will be marked by the emergence of new, innovative technologies. Indo-US collaboration and cooperation in these areas may lead to cost reductions and creation of new markets. In other words, India is in a position to help sustain US pre-eminence in technological and economic spheres.

Unlike in 2005, this time India is in a position to offer the US a partnership of mutual benefit, which will serve both Indian and US national interests and also serve the cause of democracy. Just as the Sino-US economic partnership of the past three decades benefited both countries, till the recent economic crisis set in, and aided China’s growth, an Indo-US economic and social partnership can also be of mutual benefit to both democracies.
This highlighting only confirms my earlier comments that the GOI officialdom is offering the Indian labor and intellectual capital as tribute to the US to what end I dont know. If this is the non-linear thinking that they spent ten months on no wonder its a mess. This approach is as linaer as it gets to ensure the caterpillar stays a worm.


It totally ignores the moves underway in Beijing as we write where the US is conceding primacy to PRC as a mediator between India and TSP and chastises India about non-proliferation when its PRC which violated the NPT repeatedly and after the fact allows TSP to transfer it regardless of who is affected.

Will e-mail author.

Before first was the fizzle.
First was the IUCNA deal.
Next this economic and social partnership.

Next will be Indian military forces as subalterns for the democratic Empire.
Mort Walker
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

What is in India’s national interest? Surely an international system in which the pre-eminent power is a pluralist democracy and not a totalitarian one-party state. India too needs a partnership for its accelerated economic growth. China was able to grow at such a rapid pace after 1980 because Chinese “princelings” (sons of top military officers and apparatchiks) linked up with US multinationals and exploited the US as a market, using the ties with those multinationals.

This statement is key here and assumes two things. One, the US economy continues to grow and India can jump on to an export bandwagon and repeat what China has done over the last 30 years. Two, the assumption that the Chinese have played by the rules and followed international law to expand its military and economic capability. This is a false assumption. China has proliferated and stolen military and WMD technologies and the US has looked the other way because it served US interests. If India were to do this, it would literally have the law books and treaties thrown in its face by the US.

Now, I wouldn't argue against economic collaboration, in fact, I'm all for it, but there should be no illusion about expanding the economy primarily on collaboration.
gandharva
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by gandharva »

Wash. Times Editor: Obama's Mother Was 'Attracted to Men of the Third World'

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... _headlines

It’s no fault of the president that he has no natural instinct or blood impulse for what the America of “the 57 states” is about. He was sired by a Kenyan father, born to a mother attracted to men of the Third World and reared by grandparents in Hawaii, a paradise far from the American mainstream.
Jarita
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Jarita »

Gus wrote:
Back in July 2005, President Bush had less than 150 guests, many of them prominent donors to the Republican Party or the heads of companies from Infosys Technologies to Ethan Allen Inc.
Didn't that CEO had a son killed in jihad.. :?:
Yup. It is open knowledge that the CEO contributes funds for assorted Jihads across the world - including Kashmiri terrorists. Don't buy anything from them

More
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/29822
putnanja
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by putnanja »

X-Posting from India-PRC-US thread ...

Posting this in full as I feel it has important points to consider ...

Obama okay with Beijing monitoring Indo-Pak ties
A week before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is expected as state guest in Washington, US president Barack Obama has given a monitoring role to China in South Asia, particularly between India and Pakistan, a fact that has stuck in New Delhi's throat.

The US and China have agreed to work together to bring about stable and peaceful relations in all of South Asia, Obama said during his joint briefing with Chinese president Hu Jintao in Beijing. Hu, who spoke first in the briefing, did not mention Pakistan or South Asia.

They (US and China) "support the efforts of Afghanistan and Pakistan to fight terrorism, maintain domestic stability and achieve sustainable economic and social development, and support the improvement and growth of relations between India and Pakistan," the joint statement said.

This is a rare occasion when a US president has acknowledged that Beijing has a role to play in the India-Pakistan relationship. The move, if serious, runs counter to predictions of US foreign policy experts that the US would not acquiesce in a future Chinese hegemony in the region.

While New Delhi maintained a studied silence on the joint statement, it has infuriated officials in the foreign office because it brings back nasty memories of another US-China joint statement by Bill Clinton and Jiang Zemin on June 29, 1998.
Then too, it was Clinton and Jiang, in what India considered "offensive" language, scolding India and Pakistan for their nuclear tests. India had reacted sharply then, buffetted by general international condemnation after the tests.

But Tuesday's statement cuts at the heart of an Indian effort to build a relationship with the US without China complicating the issue. Former diplomat KC Singh said, "The statement was uncalled for and gratuitous, and serves to poison the chalice before the PM goes to Washington."

The reality is perhaps that the joint statement was drafted by Obama's China officials who don't carry sensitivities of India with them. But that it was allowed to go through signals to many Indian strategists that Obama may be more than pliant to China, giving it a role in a region where it's bound to come into conflict with a country Obama says is a US strategic partner, India.

The question is whether the US was pressured into giving China a bigger role in the region in return for other favours in areas like the North Korean and Iranian nuclear issues. The Indian government, which has always opposed third party intervention in the India-Pakistan dialogue, is likely to be worried about the new development.

The joint statement also shows that Washington is agreeable to the idea of China playing a bigger role in Afghanistan and Pakistan, which is another issue that can rattle New Delhi.

"The two sides are ready to strengthen communication, dialogue and cooperation on issues related to South Asia and work together to promote peace, stability and development in that region," the joint statement further said explaining the parameters of US-China cooperation in the region.

A Chinese foreign ministry official later said the two leaders did not discuss specifics of the situation in South Asia because there was not much time available for that. There were a lot of other issues for them to discuss, he said.

But the joint statement is the product of weeks of discussions between two sides and the US administration officials did approve the phrases concerning China's role in South Asia.
I for one am glad it happened before the Ombaba-MMS meeting next week, as it brings them back to reality. I don't know how obama's or MMS' apologists will try to spin this, but this is as bad as it gets between India and US. This officially acknowledges China's role in South Asia. If India cannot play a dominant role in its own region, we will have no control over how event unfolds over the next few years! A rude wake up call if ever there was one.
vera_k
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by vera_k »

So how long before an US president comes out and touts the "China's chairman is our chairman" line?
amdavadi
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by amdavadi »

Kashmir sellout to start pretty soon with hurriyat conference talking to foggy bottom at the same time they are holding secret talk with PC.
RamaY
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by RamaY »

Ramanaji,

I see the same syndrome in KSji that we see in few 'retired' military generals and babus. The root cause of this problem can be seen in the Indic thread.
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