India-China News and Discussion

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby AnimeshP » 02 Oct 2009 00:16

What is the guru log's opinion on my hypothesis that if US and Iran go to war* then we might see our Chinese friends trying more than just border incursions in AP? I mean last time we went to war with China was when the world's attention was focused on the Cuban Missile crisis ...

* - I think an American war with Iran is coming ... am seeing a lot of similarities between how things were in the runup to Iraq war was and the current situation ..

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby shynee » 02 Oct 2009 03:14

We have Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP), but no Indo-Chinese Border Police. :)

sanjaykumar wrote:India should never mention any India-China border. It is technically and in every sense a India-Tibet border. (I have been waiting ten years for India to develop the political and military assets to back such a description).

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Juggi G » 02 Oct 2009 04:12


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby JwalaMukhi » 02 Oct 2009 06:17

SSridhar wrote:We cannot forever be hoping for a day in the future when India will change its rules of engagement, as you put it, because any concession or quarters given now will haunt us badly even when the 'globalized generations' assume power later on. Pakistan and Kashmir are the lessons for us.

Sridharji completely agree with your assessment. My pessimistic view on the current generation of leaders, has unfortunately reduced only to hoping for a day in the future. Hope I am proved wrong.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby SSridhar » 02 Oct 2009 14:57

Tiananmen showcases rise of China

N.Ram personally writing this from his ringside view at the square. He should have been honoured to be one of the few journalists invited by the PRC.
The centrepiece of the Tian’anmen programme was of course the military parade (for which we, a group of foreign journalists, had ringside seats).
China celebrated the 60th birthday of the People’s Republic in magnificent style, parading its new high-tech military prowess . . . In the process, it sent out a clear message that while the country is strong and determined enough to use all its resources to protect its interests — beginning with the “one China” imperative what it wants above all is an internal and external environment conducive to development and the improvement of the lives of 1.3 billion people.
As I write, the evening is quite young at Tian’anmen Square.

N.Ram is highly impressed.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 02 Oct 2009 15:14

Tales from the paranoid republic of china....
“The basic idea is that history can be rewritten and used as a tool of the state. But this requires constant censorship. And it has a destructive effect on society.” - Bao Pu, a Hong Kong publisher who infuriated party leaders last spring by printing the memoir of Zhao Ziyang, the deposed Communist Party leader who spent 15 years under house arrest after opposing the violent crackdown on democracy protesters in 1989.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/02/world ... ?ref=world

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suppiah » 02 Oct 2009 15:16

PRC policy of talking to Indians through Stalinist mass murderers and their yellow media puppets is doomed to fail because these traitors have low levels of credibility amongst educated Indians

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby SSridhar » 02 Oct 2009 15:27

India shouldn't issue work visas to the Chinese, as a tit-for-tat
China's practice of issuing plain paper visas to Indian citizens born and resident in J&K, whenever it started, indicates that it is sliding back to the pre-1999 position of support to the Pakistani stand that J&K is a disputed territory and rejection of the Indian stand that J&K is an integral part of India.

India should not remain content with merely taking up this issue at the diplomatic level with China. There is a need for concrete action to express our displeasure over the insidious Chinese practice.

The Indian diplomatic and Consular missions in China should be asked not to issue any more work visas to Chinese citizens selected by their companies to work in their projects in India. The visas of the Chinese citizens already working in India should not be extended when they expire. It should be made clear to the Chinese that the issuance of work visas to Chinese nationals will be resumed only when their practice of issue of plain paper visas is discontinued.

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Pro-Democracy movements In and Outside China.

Postby jaladipc » 02 Oct 2009 17:31

I feel it as more appropriate to have a special thread to talk about the recent uprising of the democracy activists in and outside China.{if mods don`t want to go ahead with this thread......its up to u then}I am not sure if a thread of such sort exists.If does, then this can be merged with.

Since its a lifeline to few people in the Psychos Ruling China(aka PRC) any one can hardly find the facts or the nature of acts over the internet.Only a person visiting china or a person meeting Chinese who is an active participant of such movement can be an eye opener.Since I am not a bookish person I personally prefer the face-face inertial cum cumulative conversation held with deepened reaches of interests .And of those which I came across accidentally is this pro-democracy talk in and outside china.Since I am not an astrologer ,I can predict or write the natal charts for the CPC,but given the clue points and standard bulky chit-chats with badey bhai`s the life expectancy of PRC will be no more than 10 years at maximum.

Holding the breath for more than 10 years to take the revenge against the acts of the odd communists the first of its kind democratic fight was fueled in 1999 barely 10 years after the massed massacre.Every thing was kept under wraps by the ruling elites to the keep the fires under the carpets.since fires cant be hide under carpets for long , again another eye opener occurred in 2001 in the heart of Shijiazhuang.Since then as many incidents have been happening every year with the inclusion of the 2002 blasting incident in Beijing and 2003 in Macau ,...... It might be quiet easy for the ruling CPC to give a ultra low profile for the incidents that had happened just for the sake diverting the attention of its billion plus public, but its not as easy to condemn the rising signs of the armed democrats seeking a revenge/change in politics of the state.

The ruling communists does even know about the democratic movement being under taken in the cities underworld.Hence is the inclement rise of surveillance all across China.Its just a matter time for the CPC to be pulled down from roots for once and all.
P.S: for people who want to comment : You can get the desired information by any sort of interaction with any chinese residing in china for the past 20 years(the major changes and incidents had occurred only during these 20 years).
(Note: I am not posting what all I know.But projecting the main spectrum of correlated beam behind the whole matter)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sum » 02 Oct 2009 17:36

N.Ram is highly impressed.

Todays Hindu actually looks like a Chinese daily with a MASSIVE photo of the parade covering half a page and other half of the front page covered by Mr. N "I love China" Ram's flowery description of the parade.

The naked adulation of China by him is disgusting, to say the least.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suppiah » 02 Oct 2009 17:49

This is a special trait of our mass murderer/rapist goon/eye-gouger ideologist traitor class, they try to be holier than the pope in showing their loyalty. I happened to be in HK during the recent Xinxiang riot outbreak and it was pleasant to read neutral and even sometimes critical coverage of events by SCMP. On the contrary the yellow daily here carried verbatim lies sourced from Xinhua and as if that is not enough invited the commies to their editorial pages.

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Re: Pro-Democracy movements In and Outside China.

Postby jaladipc » 02 Oct 2009 19:05

for mass enlightenment one go through the views and opinions of Mr.Gordon G.Chang an US born chinese whose views are totally unbiased.

Articles and Thesis by Gordon G.Chang

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Lilo » 02 Oct 2009 19:30

Some specifics on how indian jobs are being outsourced by chinese companies working on our billion $ projects .

CHINDIA: China All Over India

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Re: Pro-Democracy movements In and Outside China.

Postby Yogi_G » 02 Oct 2009 20:38

Interesting topic...

Democracy in China will eventually ensure that the Chinese and Indians team up collectively to make it a conflict free Asian millenium. Interestingly I remember once seeing a sign board in Phoenix, AZ about the supposed mass deserting of the CCP by its members. Not sure how true that one is. Has anyone else seen this huge signboard?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby shyamd » 02 Oct 2009 21:00

SSridhar wrote:India shouldn't issue work visas to the Chinese, as a tit-for-tat

Do they want India to say Tibet is a disputed territory and cause a build up of tension?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RayC » 02 Oct 2009 22:30

SSridhar wrote:[url=http://www.hindu.com/2009/10/02/stories/2009100257530100.htm]

N.Ram is highly impressed.


He is also impressed with the Defence Service Staff College, Wellington (Nilgiris) Tamilnadu.

Great hospitality and great weather!

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby SSridhar » 03 Oct 2009 09:02

Karat sees ulterior motives behind revival of Chinese bogey - The Hindu
Excerpts
“There has been a revival of the bogey of the threat from China among sections of the corporate media and strategic experts. A series of hostile manoeuvres by China have been cited… All such reports were either baseless or highly exaggerated… Both the Chinese and Indian governments have stated that there are no tensions growing on the border,” CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat said in an article in the party organ, People’s Democracy.

He said the rising economic power of the two countries was presented as a source of conflict between the two and in strategic terms, China was sought to be pitted against India. “Those dominating the world economic order would like nothing better than a relationship of rivalry and conflict between China and India,” he said.

Right-wing circles, he noted, were prompt in picking up the theme of a threat from China, with the RSS chief, highlighting the alleged threat.{So easy to blame RSS for everything} This was being orchestrated to demand greater defence preparedness against China, the unstated requirement being deeper strategic and military ties with the United States.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suppiah » 03 Oct 2009 10:12

The bogey is on the other foot. By no stretch of imagination has India's 50 year foreign policy followed American line blindly. On the contrary we have gone out of the way to offend them in various ways, including hugging Saddam, turning NAM into a anti-US bashing shop, welcoming Afghan invasion by Soviets, blaming CIA for anything and everything including failure of monsoons, etc. Which means the Stalinists are raising this bogey of an imagined subservience to US to replace that with a real subservience to their masters.

Since they have completely lost hope of coming to power through ballot box, this is a convenient way (apart from using their ultra-left parivar armed forces to similar ends) to come to power through back door, promising the carcass of Indian economy and society and total obedience and subservience to their masters in exchange for the gaddi.

Be that as it may, the invasion of India by China and various other provocations happened not when RSS was ruling India, it happened at the height of Indi-Chini bhai bhai euphoria created and nurtured by a man (and subsequently his daughter) who were practically commies by conviction. So was the case with supplying nukes to fanatic barbarians and terrorist states by PRC commies.

They should be spending the anniversary pondering over how really communist PRC is these days, in economic aspects, why is it that so, why are they still drinking, bottling and selling as ganga-jal the stuff their paymasters have flushed out as sewage years ago, and why are they begging Tatas for investment and raping or killing their own citiziens to allot land to PRC's favored sons if as Marx said all ownership of land and productive assets should be with the state.

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Re: Pro-Democracy movements In and Outside China.

Postby jaladipc » 03 Oct 2009 19:28

Another Interesting Take-China looks to democracy to cure its ills
Apart from the canon fire due to the democrats in and outside china,the corruption at the highest level in the CPC itself is looking for a revamp of its communist philosophies.

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Re: Pro-Democracy movements In and Outside China.

Postby brihaspati » 03 Oct 2009 19:51

Can we have a chronology of events as far as is feasible to get? Some could be mentioned as "hearsay", or unconfirmed.

It is a tradition in Chinese anecdotes of uprisings, to look back at iconic historical uprisings against unpopular and opressive regimes. Are similar attempts observable?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Manmeet » 03 Oct 2009 20:02

If we have 'so-called' dispute in Jammu and Kashmir then chinese commies have it at more than 7 places on its borders. Nearly every country they have borders, they have dispute with........
It makes me only laugh at chinese trying to become a new police man at least in south east asian region.
Show Tibet, which it is, Inner Mongolia and Shinzian disputed territories and also issue paper visa to people visiting India from these occupied regions.
Hit PRC where it hurts.......

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 03 Oct 2009 20:32

in China, the Forgotten Manchu Seek to Rekindle Their Glory
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125452110732160485.html

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby harbans » 03 Oct 2009 20:50

^^ Good read. Just goes to show how PRC values it's minorities. Imagine these nomadic warriors were the ones that conquered China and ruled Tibet (Hence China's claim by proxy to Tibet), now don't even know their own language. One elementary school teaching Manchu as an elective that too! Amazing really. India really needs to start saying out loudly that for millenia Indo-Tibetan borders were about peace. Now that we have new neighbours, it's a bit difference. Subtly driving home the point that China was never ever India's neighbour. It's time to build public opinion in India itself first.

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Re: Pro-Democracy movements In and Outside China.

Postby suryag » 03 Oct 2009 22:11


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Oct 2009 23:04

Will an Indian paper ever have a reporter file such a piece? India deserves its insularity, the world may well pass it by.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Hari Seldon » 03 Oct 2009 23:17

sanjaykumar wrote:Will an Indian paper ever have a reporter file such a piece? India deserves its insularity, the world may well pass it by.


Good point. I guess, only 'the Hindu' shows any glimmer of hope and possesses the modicum of raw courage to do just such a job...../sarc off.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby a_bharat » 03 Oct 2009 23:35

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... with_china
Time for India to Play Hardball with China
Indian democracy vexes Beijing. If India can guarantee fundamental rights to its diverse citizens while managing a growth rate not far from China's, why, someone is bound to ask, can China not do the same? For many in the West, China's economic prosperity is a precursor to political freedom for its people. But this theory, as China scholar Minxin Pei has argued, ignores the important fact that an authoritarian state is less likely to loosen its hold on a wealthy country than it would be to forego the control of an impoverished one. This accounts for China's censorship at home and the promotion of secessionism abroad. But it also means that it is China, and not India, that is more fragile and insecure. The Dalai Lama is India's trump card. All India has to do is play hardball.

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Re: Pro-Democracy movements In and Outside China.

Postby jaladipc » 03 Oct 2009 23:38

I can bring as many events as much as possible.for that i need to buy some time.
As for Brfites,most of the incidents and coups that happened in the past few years were totally held under wraps and were made unknown to outsiders and media.
when I heard last time, the thoughts and the movement strength appeared to me that the communism wont last long and the democratization will occur in less than a decade.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby jaladipc » 03 Oct 2009 23:45

to keep the ball rolling and at the same time making goals is one idea.
for that GOI has to show its balls.Start the mentioning of Tibet-Indian border while ignoring Indo-chinese border.
Acknowledge the Tibetan gov in exile and throw a statement for free and Independant Tibet.
Ask the sheltering exiled government to have their own ambassy in India at the same time opening the same around the world in their friendly nations.

Ultimately as a spin-off the Xingxiangians will replicate the same.It will bring either a nervous breakdown to the communists or another crack down on these freedom fighters.
One shot-Two brids.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby a_bharat » 04 Oct 2009 00:07

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 083864.cms
Although China has moved from being a totalitarian state to being an authoritarian state, some things haven't changed since the Mao years. Some other things indeed have changed for the worse, such as the whipping up of ultra-nationalism and turning that into the legitimating credo of Communist rule. Attempts to bend reality to the illusions the state propagates through information control and online censors actually risk turning China into a modern-day Potemkin state.

While India celebrates diversity, China honours artificially enforced monoculturalism, although it officially comprises 56 nationalities. China seeks not only to play down its ethnic diversity, but also to conceal the cultural and linguistic cleavages among the Han majority, lest the historical north-south fault lines resurface with a vengeance. The Han - split in at least seven linguistically and culturally distinct groups - are anything but homogenous.

China's internal problems - best symbolised by the 2008 Tibetan uprising and this year's Uighur revolt - won't go away unless Beijing stops imposing cultural homogeneity and abandons ethnic drowning as state strategy in minority lands. But given the regime's entrenched cultural chauvinism and tight centralised control, that is unlikely to happen. After all, President Hu Jintao's slogan of a "harmonious society" is designed to undergird the theme of conformity with the state.

More fundamentally, if China manages to resolve the stark contradictions between its two systems - market capitalism and political monocracy - just the way Asian 'tigers' like South Korea and Taiwan were able to make the transition to democracy without crippling turbulence at home, China could emerge as a peer competitor to the US. Political modernisation, not economic modernisation, thus is the central challenge staring at China. If it is to build and sustain a great-power capacity, it has to avoid a political hard landing

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sanjaykumar » 04 Oct 2009 01:19

China is an empire of totalitarianism just as the USSR was, and just so is it evolving into something more authoritarian than totalitarian. We will wait patiently for glasnost to be followed by persetroika to be followed by the dissolution of empire.

Do the Chinese believe otherwise? No; that is why Tibet and India makes them so nervous. There is a certainty and inevitability to karma.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Kakkaji » 04 Oct 2009 08:10

Swapan Dasgupta in dailypioneer.com:

Impressive but joyless celebration

Swapan Dasgupta

The most interesting feature of the 60th anniversary jamboree in Beijing last Friday was its reportage. In a seven-column, front-page report, the editor of The Hindu (who was favoured with “ringside seats” of the choreographed event) was bowled over by the proceedings. With breathlessness that seemed a prosaic re-run of Leni Riefenstahl’s breathtaking documentary on the Berlin Olympics of 1936, he proclaimed: “China celebrated the 60th birthday of the People’s Republic in magnificent style, parading its new high-tech military prowess and showcasing its post-1978 economic development and its rapid rise on the world stage in a 150-minute Tian’anmen event that did not neglect to refer back to 20th century revolutionary history. In the process, it sent out a clear message that while the country is strong and determined enough to use all its resources to protect its interests — beginning with the “one China” imperative — what it wants above all is an internal and external environment conducive to development and the improvement of the lives of 1.3 billion people.” Phew!

The Hindu editor attached a great deal of significance to President Hu Jintao’s speech on the occasion which “left no doubt about the path along which China was headed”. Among other things, Hu proclaimed: “We must unswervingly follow the road of socialism with Chinese characteristics…and the reform and opening-up policy…The development and progress of New China over the past 60 years fully proved that only socialism can save China and only reform and opening up can ensure the development of China, socialism, and Marxism.”

The Hindu’s endorsement of China’s vision recalled a line penned by American journalist Lincoln Steffens after a visit to the Soviet Union in 1920: “I have been over into the future and it works.” In 1949, Mao took over a devastated, poor country. This year, China overtook the US as the biggest market for luxury goods. If only Mont Blanc had produced a limited edition Mao fountain pen!

The Hindu’s gush-gush was in sharp contrast to a New York Times report of September 30 which quoted Zhang Ming, professor of politics at Renmin University in Beijing, as saying: “There is no ideology in China anymore. The Government has no ideology. The people have no ideology. The reason the Government is in power is because they can say: ‘I can make your lives better every day. I can give you stability. And I have the power.’ As long as they make people’s lives better, it’s OK.” As an afterthought, the professor asked: “What happens on the day when they no longer can?”

That’s a question which has preoccupied the rulers in Beijing. Describing the arrangements for the Tian’anmen parade, Peter Foster of London’s Daily Telegraph observed things Indians, quite inexplicably, don’t. “At a time when China has more than most countries to celebrate”, he wrote, “the Party still does not dare to invite the people on to the streets to celebrate its 60th year in power. Some 200,000 carefully vetted students and volunteers will take part in the made-for-TV parade, but ‘security considerations’ will keep the common man at a safe distance. Not unlike the opening night of the Olympics, where the streets of Beijing were devoid of celebrations, it will be an impressive, but strangely joyless affair.

In The Wall Street Journal, Gordon G Chang, author of the ominously titled The Coming Collapse of China, suggested that the Chinese Government is “deeply insecure”: “The theme of the celebration is ‘The Motherland and I, Marching Together.’ But so great is the regime’s worry about possible unrest or disruption in protest of its rule that the laobaixing — ordinary Chinese — will not be walking in Beijing’s parade. There will be no cheering crowds lining the route along Chang’an Avenue. Citizens will be kept away by a six-province security perimeter and more than a million police and ‘volunteers’ enforcing the tightest security in the country’s history. The Government has booked all the hotel rooms overlooking the route to prevent anyone from seeing the parade up close. Nearby residents have been ordered not to look out their windows or invite guests.

Those who witnessed the Chinese panic over the passage of the Olympics torch through New Delhi will know that Chang isn’t exaggerating.

What should we in India make of these sharply divergent perceptions of the Middle Kingdom? The one which comes through from “ringside” seats reserved for the ideologically blessed is an awesome military power, goose-stepping its way into the future and proclaiming socialism. The other perception is of an entrepreneurial people in a mad rush to prosperity, slightly cynical about the Party and those in power. Both perceptions are real because China, like India, is home to a million truths.

Both images also serve a purpose. The spectacle of 50 new weapons systems unveiled for the first time by a determined People’s Liberation Army is calculated to put the fear of god into non-militarised societies. It is aimed at intimidating both the non-Han minorities within and nations who imagine that they can compete with China economically, host the “splittist Dalai clique” and, worse, question China’s imperial boundaries.

The other view of a “normal” society where people can abuse the rulers is meant to reassure democratic societies that China isn’t a latter-day version of the regime that built autobahns, won medals at the Olympics and manufactured the Mercedes Benz and the Volkswagen. Actually, placating the soft West proved remarkably easy. The Empire State Building was lit up in China’s national colours and Bejing’s Ambassador in London was given space by the bleeding-heart Guardian to prove China’s “democratic” virtues.

Money, it would seem, works wonders in the capitalist heartland. As for those States that share an undefined border with China, guns can do the talking.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Kakkaji » 04 Oct 2009 08:22

MJ Akbar in dailypioneer.com:

China seeks to keep India off-balance

MJ Akbar

Is there anything in common between an India-Pakistan cricket match in South Africa and China’s decision to give disputed status to Indian Kashmiris through disingenuous separate-sheet visas? Yes. Neither is a game.

China’s celebratory ascent into the top echelons of the modern world owes to a course correction by Deng Xiaoping, who recognised that Communism was injurious to China’s health. He replaced ideology with idealism and gave it pragmatic legs. The shift from pomposity to practical was based on an old Chinese principle: Search for truth among facts. The only thing Maoist about China now is the portrait in Tiananmen Square and the mugshot on the currency notes.

China’s foreign policy is shaped by the same principle. It has looked long and hard at the facts of India, in particular at its defence. Thanks to the self-castration of a post-Bofors mentality, the hypocrisy of a system thirsty for bribes behind the burqa of bureaucratic-political piety, and the pseudo-morality of a Defence Minister who equates procrastination with self-protection, India’s defence capability is now at least a generation behind China’s in both conventional and nuclear warfare.

When an Indian Air Force chief promises to bring his capability up to speed in a potential war zone like Arunachal Pradesh he is talking of what might happen by 2018 if all goes well. Make that a very big if. The Indian Air Force has been whittled down to a statistical accident. Our artillery has a goodwill-inventory. The communication infrastructure necessary to back up a fighting unit is waiting for the dust to be cleaned from the cover of the files.


China assessed Indian vulnerability years ago, and signalled its mood on the eve of President Hu Jintao’s last state visit, generally a time when states seek to stress points of mutual agreement. Instead, the then Chinese Ambassador in Delhi chose to dwell on Chinese claims on Arunachal Pradesh, called ‘Southern Tibet’ by Beijing. It was deliberate, calculated provocation to which Delhi responded with its familiar waffle.

The border provocations of 2009 have evoked a very queer reaction from National Security Adviser MK Narayanan. He said, in defence of the Chinese, that the infringements had not increased beyond the normal. This begs a question: What is the normal level of infringements? A couple of hundred yards here or there — or, perhaps, there rather than here.

Jawaharlal Nehru once made the mistake of telling Parliament that the disputed territory on the China border was all rock and wasteland. In 1962 China proved how much it valued wasteland. Has China begun another ‘Mission Creep’ which seeks to change facts on the ground so that the truth can be refashioned in fertile Delhi?

I do not believe that China wants war with India. The raison d’être of the post-Communist Communist Party is the promise, to its people, of stability. Stability is the cocoon in which economic growth can be spun. War would destabilise the Chinese stock exchange, if nothing else.

China also wants trade with India, now close to $ 60 billion. It is a useful hedge at a time of recession in the West. Moreover, the Indian market is undemanding. Wal-Mart will not accept toxic lead in toys, and American media do raise a typhoon if Chinese cat food ends up killing the cat. But the Delhi trader does not really care if the rows of Chinese Ganesh idols have been spray painted with death-dealing gamma rays as long as he can sell them for twice the price he paid. They must be laughing all the way from Shanghai to Lhasa.

The laughter in Beijing is probably restricted to the great debate on India’s nuclear tests. It takes courage, more than freedom, to pursue an argument on the most serious element of our defence spread through Press conferences, the preferred methodology of both the plaintiff and the accused. If the eminent scientists who believe that the yield in 1998 was too low and India needs to test further are getting a hearing it is only because of their eminence, their knowledge (they are the hands-on people who actually created the nuclear deterrent) and their transparent sincerity. If they have no case, as a belligerent Government (denied the right to test by the Indo-US nuclear deal) believes, then they have been utterly irresponsible. Why doesn’t the Government accuse them of treason and bring them before the courts? They have shaken the nation’s conviction in its core assets and given comfort to the enemy. The Government cannot clear doubts by a show of hands from within the establishment. It needs, at the very least, an independent inquiry.

There is a rational reason why China has decided to exploit Indian weaknesses and contradictions through rhetoric and provocative gestures on the border and in its Delhi Embassy. It seeks to keep India off-balance, to the extent it can, at a time of great existential discomfort for its ally Pakistan.

Pakistan has always sought Chinese help in its confrontation with India. China has given it, although never to the point where it becomes counter-productive. The games theory in Islamabad and Beijing surely is that if Pakistan has to worry about two fronts, then, at the very least, so should India. Our weakness becomes an opportunity for China and an invitation to Pakistan. Witness the latter’s supreme indifference to concerns about the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba. A New York Times report published on September 30 could not be more categorical: “Ten months after the devastating attacks in Mumbai by Pakistan-based militants, the group behind the assault remains largely intact and determined to strike India again, according to current and former members of the group, Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, and intelligence officials. Despite pledges from Pakistan to dismantle groups operating on its soil, and the arrest of a handful of operatives, Lashkar has persisted, even flourished…”

Pakistan cannot find Lashkar operatives planning another attack, but the New York Times can.

Nothing in the equation between India and Pakistan is a game, unless you include war in the list of games. Even cricket has become a war by other means. But that is another story, suitable for some future column.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Prasanth » 04 Oct 2009 08:59

sanjaykumar wrote:China is an empire of totalitarianism just as the USSR was, and just so is it evolving into something more authoritarian than totalitarian. We will wait patiently for glasnost to be followed by persetroika to be followed by the dissolution of empire.

Do the Chinese believe otherwise? No; that is why Tibet and India makes them so nervous. There is a certainty and inevitability to karma.



I don't think they will yield so easily, afterall, they are now only Communist in name. I would say they are more facist than communist. More like the Nazis in the 1930s. So, they won't follow the Russian path. Btw, only the Soviet Union dissolved, Russia is still more powerful than India, ya know...

What makes you think once Commie China is destroyed, a new racist facist China is any better and weaker?

If they can engage and embrace even the Amrikans, who sponsored Tibet uprising, Korean war, and Tiananmen demonstrations. Remember, it was the americans that is containing China not us!

I don't think they are nervous about us, we should be nervous about them instead. It is not us building bases in South China Sea, nor supporting their democratic movement. On the other hand, they are the ones building bases around us. Imagine this, for 40 years, the Lankans cannot defeat the Tamil Tigers, one lil finger flick last year by China brought the whole Tamil Tiger down. We were the ones supporting the Tigers all along to leverage the Lankans, now this card is gone. Nepal is nw controlled by naxalites. Myanmar is under their shoes, Bangla is definitely another Jehadi wannabe and Pakistan, our long time nemesis. Hell, should we be nervous ones ? or them? Is it coincident that all these countries bought CHINESE WEAPONS? The only ally left is Bhutan.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sid_ashar » 04 Oct 2009 09:29

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8273464.stm

another one of those comparisons between the Chinese and Indian economies and who is going to grow faster... the elephant or the dragon..

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 04 Oct 2009 09:41

Imagine this, for 40 years, the Lankans cannot defeat the Tamil Tigers, one lil finger flick last year by China brought the whole Tamil Tiger down. We were the ones supporting the Tigers all along to leverage the Lankans, now this card is gone.

very astute analysis ! :roll:
proves why GJ calls this the hot air forum !

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sum » 04 Oct 2009 10:17

China’s foreign policy is shaped by the same principle. It has looked long and hard at the facts of India, in particular at its defence. Thanks to the self-castration of a post-Bofors mentality, the hypocrisy of a system thirsty for bribes behind the burqa of bureaucratic-political piety, and the pseudo-morality of a Defence Minister who equates procrastination with self-protection, India’s defence capability is now at least a generation behind China’s in both conventional and nuclear warfare.


When an Indian Air Force chief promises to bring his capability up to speed in a potential war zone like Arunachal Pradesh he is talking of what might happen by 2018 if all goes well. Make that a very big if. The Indian Air Force has been whittled down to a statistical accident. Our artillery has a goodwill-inventory. The communication infrastructure necessary to back up a fighting unit is waiting for the dust to be cleaned from the cover of the files.

Depressing read coming from a "insider"...Guess only a kick in the nuts will wake our babus up (or maybe even that wont like Kargil showed where we still haven't procured single 155 mm gun despite it being the one stand out in the conflict).

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 04 Oct 2009 10:46

sum wrote:
Depressing read coming from a "insider"...Guess only a kick in the nuts will wake our babus up (or maybe even that wont like Kargil showed where we still haven't procured single 155 mm gun despite it being the one stand out in the conflict).

Still people dont want a TN weapon

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby csharma » 04 Oct 2009 11:33

SSridhar wrote:Karat sees ulterior motives behind revival of Chinese bogey - The Hindu
Excerpts
“There has been a revival of the bogey of the threat from China among sections of the corporate media and strategic experts. A series of hostile manoeuvres by China have been cited… All such reports were either baseless or highly exaggerated… Both the Chinese and Indian governments have stated that there are no tensions growing on the border,” CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat said in an article in the party organ, People’s Democracy.

He said the rising economic power of the two countries was presented as a source of conflict between the two and in strategic terms, China was sought to be pitted against India. “Those dominating the world economic order would like nothing better than a relationship of rivalry and conflict between China and India,” he said.

Right-wing circles, he noted, were prompt in picking up the theme of a threat from China, with the RSS chief, highlighting the alleged threat.{So easy to blame RSS for everything} This was being orchestrated to demand greater defence preparedness against China, the unstated requirement being deeper strategic and military ties with the United States.


Aren't we glad that Karat and co are no longer influencing the govt at the center. From what I gather commies in India believe that Arunachal belongs to China.
Last edited by csharma on 04 Oct 2009 12:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Nihat » 04 Oct 2009 12:32

True , the commies were an incredible hurdle in our China policy. Had they still been supporting the Govt. then it was only a wet dream that we could operationalize air bases in Leh , base MKI's in Tezpur and Chauba or even take on Naxals on the scale on which we are planning now.

Long may they remain out of Power.


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