India-China News and Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Oct 2009 12:21

There was a book a few years ago that caused storm in the US,"The coming conflict with China".The title is most apt for current Indo-Sino trends,which from every angle realtions are going downhill,a direction that we in India do not want Chinese troops to follow! Many analysts in the media are trying to understand why the Chinese are racheting up the tension when India is engaged on its western front.In a recent post I gave a few reasons why,worth repeating with new inputs after the latest statements fronm Beijing's farting monkey.

1.India has a weak,soft ledership at the moment,that cannot even deal with pak's terror against it.Our inability to hurt Pak after 26/11 has emboldened the Chinese to surge ahead with its mischief.

2.Pak is in trouble and China needs to divert India from makinguse of the opportunity that exists when Pak is engaged with its internal war against its own Taliban and is trying to defeat the US's objectives in Afghanistan.

3.The internal troubles in TIbet and Xinjiang need to be supressed at any cost.In TIbet,the Dalai lama's popularity is undiminihed and his attitude against China seems to be hardening.China is afraid that he will before his death annnounce a new Tibetaln leadership,both political and religious that will prevent any Chinese attempt at installing a puppet.

4.China deliberately eants to keep the border in dispute,so that it can continue to nibble away at Indian territory,improve the infrastrcture in Pak ceded territory in Aksai Chin,to enable it to move troops and forces into Pak to Gwadar and the Gulf in a future international crisis over oil,plus keep India perpetually off balance in its relations with China.

5.The visit of the Dalai Lama to Tawang/AP is the most important reason right now for China's belligerance.His visit will inspire the Tibetans not to lose heart and a visit to AP will further reinforce the population's distaste for anything Chinese.Therefore,China is using threats as a means to prevent the visit from taking place.It is also using stool pigeons and Quislings in the country like N.Ram and the CHindu, to support the Chinese position and fool the people of India into believing that China wants nothing but peace and goodwill for India.The latest farting by the Beijing monkey should silence N.Ram's mouth for a while and the silence of his rag on the issue speaks volumes for his patriotism.

6.Militarily,China holds the best cards right now.A window of opportunity exists where China can score a quick success/invasion and declare "victory" before the international community (US and Russia in particular) armtwist the combatants,just as was done in '48 when we ceded by default what is now POK,that is rapidly becoming COK! The recent controversy about our TN capability has also excited the PRC mandarins,who feel that we Indians are scared sh*tless at the thought of a Chinese military attack.

7.China also wants to scuttle our UNSC seat and this is of paramount long- term importance to China,as it rightly sees India as its most important rival in the future.It will label India as the agressor,fomentor of tension,provoking the Chinese by our PM and the Dalai visiting "Chinese" territory.The recent visit to the Beijing Zoo by the Paki pigs indicates that a Sino-Pak coordinated military adventure is on the cards.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 14 Oct 2009 12:39

You are so right. The rapist goon traitors' propaganda yellow rag has opinions on everything under the sun but chooses to simply report news verbatim if the facts are inconvenient...it has however inserted a comment saying China usually makes noise if someone visits AP thereby implying we should keep our mouths shut. It is strange, if the paymasters make a comment 'they are merely reiterating a known stand' but if Indian Govt does that they are 'provoking'

Deal with the traitors within our midst first, PRC will automatically get the message..

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 14 Oct 2009 12:39

China also wants to scuttle our UNSC seat and this is of paramount long- term importance to China

The UNSC seat will only mean something when the UN exists as a formal arbiter of what is 'officially' ok and what is not.

Folks - both jingos and jongos (jholawalas) IMHo seriously underestimate yindia's spoiler capability - something we might just play if it ever comes to it. What weight will P5 have if every aira gaira pipsqueak around will suddenly 'develop' N-capability, for example?

PRC is pushing the elephant pretty hard. I suspect Dilli is quite content playing second fiddle to beijing. But PRC will likely push us beyond the edge simply coz their simplistic gubmint understands little about compromise and accommodation. They work on a all-or-nothing calculus and will push us to next to nothing, seems like, before out of sheer desperation we are forced to pull the roof down on the current world order.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 14 Oct 2009 13:01

Wow, Look at India's response. Does this mean that China is making awaaz on Pak's behest. So it is a message to Pak as well?

India asks China to stay out of PoK

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... k/528972/0

A day after India and China sparred aggressively over the ownership status of Arunachal Pradesh, India said that China must cease activities in Pak-Occupied Kashmir.

In a response to a question on Pakistan- China projects in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK), the official spokesperson of the government said: “We have seen the Xinhua report quoting the President of China as stating that China will continue to engage in projects with Pakistan inside Pakistan Occupied Kashmir."

"Pakistan has been in illegal occupation of parts of the Indian State of Jammu & Kashmir since 1947. The Chinese side is fully aware of India's position and our concerns about Chinese activities in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir."

"We hope that the Chinese side will take a long term view of the India-China relations, and cease such activities in areas illegally occupied by Pakistan.”

The Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) on Tuesday reiterated that the State of Arunachal Pradesh is an integral and inalienable part of India.

The statement issued by a spokesman of the ministry shortly after China expressed "strong" dissastisfaction over Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent visit to Arunachal Pradesh for electioneering.

"The State of Arunachal Pradesh is an integral and inalienable part of India. The people of Arunachal Pradesh are citizens of India. They are proud participants in the mainstream of India's vibrant democracy. The Chinese side is well aware of this position of the Government of India," said the official spokesperson.

"It is well established practice in our democratic system that our leaders visit States where elections to Parliament and to the State Assemblies are taking place. The Government of India is deeply committed to ensuring the welfare of its own citizens across the length and breadth of our country," the official spokesperson added.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 14 Oct 2009 13:27

Whew!
Hats off to the individual who took the initiative. However, india should remain assertive to its statements in future as well.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 14 Oct 2009 14:05

csharma wrote:Wow, Look at India's response. Does this mean that China is making awaaz on Pak's behest. So it is a message to Pak as well?

India asks China to stay out of PoK

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... k/528972/0

A day after India and China sparred aggressively over the ownership status of Arunachal Pradesh, India said that China must cease activities in Pak-Occupied Kashmir.

In a response to a question on Pakistan- China projects in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK), the official spokesperson of the government said: “We have seen the Xinhua report quoting the President of China as stating that China will continue to engage in projects with Pakistan inside Pakistan Occupied Kashmir."

"Pakistan has been in illegal occupation of parts of the Indian State of Jammu & Kashmir since 1947. The Chinese side is fully aware of India's position and our concerns about Chinese activities in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir."

"We hope that the Chinese side will take a long term view of the India-China relations, and cease such activities in areas illegally occupied by Pakistan.”

The Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) on Tuesday reiterated that the State of Arunachal Pradesh is an integral and inalienable part of India.

The statement issued by a spokesman of the ministry shortly after China expressed "strong" dissastisfaction over Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent visit to Arunachal Pradesh for electioneering.

"The State of Arunachal Pradesh is an integral and inalienable part of India. The people of Arunachal Pradesh are citizens of India. They are proud participants in the mainstream of India's vibrant democracy. The Chinese side is well aware of this position of the Government of India," said the official spokesperson.

"It is well established practice in our democratic system that our leaders visit States where elections to Parliament and to the State Assemblies are taking place. The Government of India is deeply committed to ensuring the welfare of its own citizens across the length and breadth of our country," the official spokesperson added.

Looks like the masters have instructed the media to hype the situation. Reports on every channel about this statement. Good only IMHO.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 14 Oct 2009 15:18

finally some one has shown some guts!
Sounds too good to be true!
I hope there is no denial issued by the PMO stating otherwise in the coming days.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2009 15:38

FIRST time I have seen GOI going on offensive instead of just reiterating our defensive position.

everytime they bark on AP, we should ignore that and bark back on POK, Xinjiang and Taiwan.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2009 15:42

* IAF vice chief slams Chinese objections to PM's visit

Agencies
New Delhi, October 14, 2009
First Published: 13:24 IST(14/10/2009)

Slamming Chinese objections to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Arunachal Pradesh, IAF vice chief PK Barbora said why did they not create a similar ruckus when President Pratibha Patil visited recently. He says Chinese reaction was triggered by successful polls there.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 14 Oct 2009 16:11

I have been saying this for a long time.

India is only reacting in this way because the chinese have been pushing India on purpose I feel (Chinese knew they would get a reaction from India), the first few attempts by china failed to get a reaction. I get the feeling they wanted India to react in this way, perhaps start a flare up of some sort.

What could be their strategy?

1) Push India and China into a mini build up. Lets be fair, I think its advantage China at the moment with regards to military, may be our military commentators can comment more on this. If there is a mini build up, will India be forced to test: causing a cancellation of the Indo US nuclear deal, perhaps push India away from the US?

2) Increase India's defence budget and reduce spending on infra/ and ultimately affect the economy?

Any suggestions?

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 14 Oct 2009 16:12

@singha
I will really appreciate if you can post the link so that i can read the full article.

Quotes from Global times,

Indian PM's visit a provocative move
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh made another provocative and dangerous move by visiting the East Section of the China-India Boundary, which India calls Arunachal Pradesh, on October 3 ahead of a local legislative election.

The visit is designed to put the area, a disputed border region between China and India, under the de facto administration of India.

...
The 120,000 square kilometers of the so-called Arunachal Pradesh, around the size of South China's Fujian Province, is at the center of the controversy. India currently occupies 90,000 square kilometers of the area.

Over the years, India has intensified its effective control over the area by encouraging the immigration of more than 1 million Indians to the region, and applying for loans from international bodies for public facilities projects in the region.

India is also increasing military deployment, along with sophisticated equipment, in the area. India's hawks are dangerously fanning public sentiment fearing a "China threat."

China favors peaceful resolution of territorial disputes through negotiation and consultation with its neighbors.

In the past the Chinese government has sought to build consensus in border negotiations through making concessions in exchange for reciprocal action.

China has maintained that same approach with India. India, however, will make a fatal error if it mistakes China's approach for weakness.

The Chinese government and public regard territorial integrity as a core national interest, one that must be defended with every means.

A stable border is crucial to the economic development of both China and India.

The disputed border area is of strategic importance, and hence, India's recent moves – including Singh's trip and approving past visits to the region by the Dalai Lama – send the wrong signal. That could have dangerous consequences.

Furthermore, India's actions add to the difficulties that have stalled negotiations on the region in the past.

Indian PM visit to southern Tibet sparks China's ire
"The repeated visits by Indian leaders can make others believe the area is part of India and solidify the existing strategies they have applied to control the area, such as using administrative jurisdiction in the area and courting sympathy from the international community," Ma said.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Oct 2009 16:51

The cretinous Beijing ducks have gone too far with their aggro.The demand that our PM stops visiting Arunachal Pradesh has been the last straw for the GOI.The lion's beard has been tweaked and it is now time for the power drunk species of the PRC to reap what they have sown.We must thank the moronic monkeys of the PRC for waking up the current GOI to the great danger that the nation faces from the rapacious dragon.This wake-up call for India has not come a moment too soon.The belligerence of the Chinese also discredits the apologists,fifth columnists,Quislings and stool-pigeons of the Middle Kingdom who have been parroting the view of the People's Daily,like the CHindu,not knowing whether they're the acting as the mouthpiece or nether orifice of the PRC!

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 14 Oct 2009 17:22

IMHO it's the Chinese who have made the fatal error , PRC would have very meticulously arrived on the conclusion that laying a stronger claim on Arunachal would intimidate the rather timid Indian establishment towards backtracking in lieu of the Superior Chinese miliatary , diplomatic and Economic ability (which of course is all true). The backtracking Of Indian establishment would confirm in Diplomatic back channels , India's willingness to play 2nd fiddle in mainland Asia thereby enhancing China's status as the "Only" emerging superpower of the world with no one snapping at the tail of the dragon.

I highly doubt that any sort of military action was on PRC minds , the Chinese are extremely pragmatic and would certainly have preferred a covert build up to military action rather than such an overt and up front stance which only alerts India furthur.

If we keep giving it back to them just like this time , then China would go back on it's rhetoric to a large extent , as they want to be seen as a nation which will have a "peaceful rise" and not quite the beligerent communist which would reinforce the western stereotype.Their claims on Arunachal will never quite go away but at least they would respect India for what it is today.

Just my do paisa btw

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 14 Oct 2009 20:14

Now, China PM wants to meet Manmohan Singh to sort out differences

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Oct 2009 21:39

You infidels.

I think India is giving too much time to its neighbor. It is not even half as important as we are making it.India cannot be compared to China in the world affairs, India has a larger role and status internationally,China shall occupy a small piece of our diplomatic policy.

Infact I do not wish to talk even for five minutes about China.

hmph...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Oct 2009 21:43

shyamd wrote:I have been saying this for a long time.

India is only reacting in this way because the chinese have been pushing India on purpose I feel (Chinese knew they would get a reaction from India), the first few attempts by china failed to get a reaction. I get the feeling they wanted India to react in this way, perhaps start a flare up of some sort.

What could be their strategy?

1) Push India and China into a mini build up. Lets be fair, I think its advantage China at the moment with regards to military, may be our military commentators can comment more on this. If there is a mini build up, will India be forced to test: causing a cancellation of the Indo US nuclear deal, perhaps push India away from the US?

2) Increase India's defence budget and reduce spending on infra/ and ultimately affect the economy?

Any suggestions?

I think its the second one. The benefits of the economic growth have multiple effect on the economy and the people of India. At same time the govt will be forced to enusre there is adequate military buildup in order to hedge the risks.

PVNR read the tea leaves correctly that PRC strategy is not to proke a shooting confrontation but to progress to commanding economic heights. Its the same this evven now. A shooting war will force India to test which is not to PRC advantage. The idea is to take the situation to brink and force expenditure in a manner that wont improve the Indian economy. Its a differnt war that is being fought.

The Indian media is not Indian interests driven. Its Western controlled if not financially atleast in thought. They are playing this up to acquire US weapon systems in a revivial of the Raj and the subaltern relationship. The rub is these weapons sytems are enough to wound but not kill with all their use restrictions.

The GOI wont test as that will reduce the economic growth opportunity. But it will keep the option to test regardless of what press confs disseminate.

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 14 Oct 2009 21:49

India could face trouble from Pakistan, China: Brajesh Mishra

India could face trouble on both the Pakistani and Chinese borders at the same time but it is not in a position to defend even one, former national security advisor Brajesh Mishra said Wednesday.

"We are now facing the possibility of having two fronts being active simultaneously, both Pakistan and China, and this has never been the case before," Mishra told BBC Hindi service in an interview.

"And India is not in a position as fas as defence preparedness is concerned to defend even one of these fronts," he added.

Amid growing rhetoric between India and China, Mishra said relations between the two countries had worsened.

"In the last two years China has become hostile and at the same time Pakistan continues to be hostile. China supports Pakistan and the US gives money to Pakistan," he said.
"Although the US is not an enemy of India but the effect of this support of both countries to Pakistan is adverse for India."
-------
Mishra said India needed to "be very fast in building up our defence capabilities. This does not mean India should neglect its diplomacy as it is also very important. But there is no alternative to strengthening one's defence capacities, both nuclear and conventional".

He went on: "Every year the defence budget has been increasing, and every year the defence ministry returns the money to the Capital Fund because they don't spend it. It is not they don't have money, it is only that both the defence ministry and politicians don't want to spend it."

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 14 Oct 2009 22:09

India could face trouble on both the Pakistani and Chinese borders at the same time but it is not in a position to defend even one, former national security advisor Brajesh Mishra said Wednesday.

"We are now facing the possibility of having two fronts being active simultaneously, both Pakistan and China, and this has never been the case before," Mishra told BBC Hindi service in an interview.

Why does such marvelous wisdom dawn upon people when they are no longer in office, while when they are in power, they remain busy smoking weed? What did Mishra sahib do when he was the right hand man of the prime minister for six years? How many new brigades and squadrons did he help raise to tackle the threat?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Oct 2009 22:54

its an important statement. So please dont get into the what did you do in the past, when what matters is, what to do now and in future?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 15 Oct 2009 00:38

Wish it was the middle finger poking at PRC.
Arunachal vote high, China salvo at PM

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 15 Oct 2009 00:48

But both felt that the journey was worth it. “Voting to karna padega na, har baar jaisa (like every election, one has to vote),” said Digyi, trekking 2km of mountainous road as the vehicle she was travelling in broke down on way to Mechukha from Itanagar.

Asked about the outrage in Beijing, Seng laughed: “Kya China, China, this is India yaar.

There is little rhetoric or jingoism among the Arunachalese — they consider it silly to assume they are anything but Indians. All this despite Delhi’s neglect of the region’s development for more than six decades.

Vote for India’ rebuff to China

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 15 Oct 2009 01:10

There is something about the Indic civilisation that is just admirable. Which will never be reported in the Western press, not out of ignorance but due to a cultural inability to cmprehend it.

The day when Tibetans call themselves Indian will come before they call themselves Chinese.

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 15 Oct 2009 02:03

Chinese Communist Party attacks India over border issue

The People’s Daily said India was “obsessed” with a “hegemonic mentality”, had “turned a blind eye" to the concessions China had made over the border issue and "refused to drop the pretentious airs when dealing with neighbours like Pakistan”. The paper also accused India of following a policy of “befriend the far and attack the near”, saying that “resentment still simmered” from India's wars with China and Pakistan. “If India really wants to be a superpower, such a policy is short sighted and immature,” the editorial said.

To the jaundice patient ...! befriend the far and attack the near Isn't that the official CCP foreign policy doctrine?

In its editorial, the paper went beyond attacking the Indian government, saying “Indians have become more narrow-minded and intolerable of outside criticism”.(The pot calling the kettle back, chinese cannot parrot/comprehend any thing beyond the propaganda they have learnt and accuse others of narrow-mindedness. Guess one can only become broad-minded by parroting the propaganda of the new-superpower.)

The paper claimed a “rising nationalist sentiment” in India led the country to “provoke” China on the border issue. “[India’s] dream of superpower is mingled with the thought of hegemony, which places the South Asian giant in an awkward situation and results in repeated failure,” the paper said.

The papers also accused India of “ignoring” China’s “concessions” on the border issue, but did not specify what the concessions were. (Pray what are they, like providing nukes to TSP? )

The Global Times also claimed 96 per cent of the over 6,000 respondents of an online poll on its Chinese language Website said they felt “agitated” by the frequent visits by Indian leaders the disputed area.

And so other countries should quiver in their boots and vacate provinces based on some internet poll that to in a propaganda website of a police state. Talk about childishness.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 15 Oct 2009 02:14

This is a three way war the GoI has to gear up for.
There is china and pakistan on the borders, with pakistan sponsoring terror attacks, and the chinese activating the maoists. The maoists might even take to blowing up railway tracks and bridges to hurt civil adminstration / armed forces.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 15 Oct 2009 02:32

Bade wrote:

Wish it was the middle finger poking at PRC.
Arunachal vote high, China salvo at PM

^^^^
It is this picture - the picture of exercising the fundamental democratic right that worries
the 'dragonfly'. If such practice continues, then dragonfly knows that Arunachal will be
'Dur-aust' no matter how provocative our PM's visit there might be.

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 15 Oct 2009 02:35

The original article is here. As usual Chindu goes for preemptive strike and presents an edited version; before other news outlets publish the full story.
Indian hegemony continues to harm relations with neighbors

Nobody can deny that today's India is a power. In recent years, Indians have become more narrow-minded and intolerable of outside criticism as nationalism sentiment rises, with some of them even turning to hegemony. It can be proved by India's recent provocation on border issues with China.

Given the country's history, hegemony is a hundred-percent result of British colonialism. {Nice left wing psy-ops} Dating back to the era of British India, the country covered a vast territory including present-day India, Pakistan, Myanmar, Bangladesh as well as Nepal. {And by the logic that Tibet should be part of China because it was paying tributes to Qings who were Manchu imperialists, these all along with S'pore, Shri Lanka should be part of India. Pea brained CCP doesn't get this?}India took it for granted that it could continue to rule the large area when Britain ended its colonialism in South Asia. A previous victim of colonialism and hegemony started to dream about developing its own hegemony. Obsessed with such mentality, India turned a blind eye to the concessions China had repeatedly made over the disputed border issues, and refused to drop the pretentious airs when dealing with neighbors like Pakistan.

Many Indians didn't know that Jawaharlal Nehru, the first Prime Minister of India, had once said that India could not play an inferior role in the world, and it should either be a superpower or disappear. { Source? And let's discuss Mao's political philosophies particularly related to nuke proliferation and NY comment}

Although the pursuit of being a superpower is justifiable, the dream of being a superpower held by Indians appears impetuous. The dream of superpower is mingled with the thought of hegemony, which places the South Asian giant in an awkward situation and results in repeated failure.

Throughout the history, India has constantly been under foreign rule.{History lesson from Pakis? } The essence for the rise of India lies in how to be an independent country, to learn to solve the complicated ethnic and religious issues, to protect the country from terrorist attacks, to boost economic development as well as to put more efforts on poverty alleviation.

Additionally, the hegemony can also be harmful in terms of geopolitical environment. The expansion of India is restricted by its geographic locations. It has Himalaya Mountain to its north, a natural barrier for northward expansion; it has Pakistan to the west, a neighbor it is always at odds over the disputed border issues.

To everyone's disappointment, India pursued a foreign policy of "befriend the far and attack the near". It engaged in the war separately with China and Pakistan and the resentment still simmers. If India really wants to be a superpower, such a policy is shortsighted and immature.

India, which vows to be a superpower, needs to have its eyes on relations with neighbors and abandon the recklessness and arrogance as the world is undergoing earthshaking changes. For India, the ease of tension with China and Pakistan is the only way to become a superpower. At present, China is proactively engaging in negotiations with India for the early settlement of border dispute and India should give a positive response{If stalling for 20 years is called negotiations!}.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 15 Oct 2009 02:55

Sundarji had reportedly said in 86-87.

"Let them come, this time we will teach them a lesson".

All Indians should remember the words of this great man. I say Indians because ultimately the Chinese are scared of public opinion in India. They know that the governing dispensation in New Delhi sooner or later does have to take into account what's being discussed at the Chaiwallah shop. Yes regardless of all the failings of Indian democracy I believe this to be true. And from what I have seen of late, a lot of chai shop discussions nowadays involves--
" arrey yaar ye cheen ke saath kya chal raha hai?" If the Indian people become thoroughly displeased with PRC "musings" its curtains for China's proxies here in India. So really all this puerile global times shit only goes to show that they are obviously not as strategically "adept" as they are made out to be in some quarters.

5000 years we co-existed with these guys.No real problems except a Pan Chow here or a Kanishka there. Once communism ( basically materialism) comes in the middle heaven starts having trouble with the western heaven. The Chinese will regret this.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 15 Oct 2009 03:06

Just before Bejing Olympics, we had analysts suggesting how nice India should play, and blah blah.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 15 Oct 2009 03:10

5000 years we co-existed with these guys.

Get that out of the system. I heard that banter twice today evening on 'drawing room chatter'. We did'nt. China is a new neighbour to India. India and the Han never shared a border till 1952.

It was because Tibetans were our neighbours for millenia we never had border problems. We were culturally contigous. Nation state problems arise because of cultural incontiguity. With Tibet India never even had to claim Kailash and Mansarover. Tibetans could travel Lhasa, Ladhak, Gangtok, Tawang at will. There was never an issue of a border between Tibet and India ever. Similar to Nepal-India till recently. With the Han in power it's a different ball game.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 15 Oct 2009 03:13

By People's Daily Online

India's new missile is able to attack China's Harbin

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 15 Oct 2009 03:19

I must say, it sounds stilted when the slaves of Mongols give India lessons on the effects of British colonialism.

But then one needs a certain level of sophistication to understand irony.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 15 Oct 2009 03:26

Get that out of the system. I heard that banter twice today evening on 'drawing room chatter'. We did'nt. China is a new neighbour to India. India and the Han never shared a border till 1952.

Well not really.

Kashi and Khotan have changed hands a few times during Kushan times.

Also there is no point in making a technical argument here anyway. As civilisational entities we have pretty much been neighbours. And if required we were never "that" faraway not to engage in conflict.
Bhikshu Xuangzuang's journey attests to this fact. I remember the words of the Chinese statesman who said that "India colonized China for two millenia without sending a single soldier over the Himalayas". They called us the Western Heaven then.

The 5000 year thingy is pretty much valid.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 15 Oct 2009 03:40

Firstly there's no universal agreement that Tibetan and Chinese are the same family. Tibetan script like Myanmarese is still devanagri based and not pictoral.

Secondly the Tibetan in the past was never under that han till 1952. The Manchu's ruled both China and Tibet through a treaty.

Go back to the 4th century and you have Chinese traveller like fa Hseins' records, i posted here a few days ago..travelling through Lop Nor, meeting 5000 people..all practising the religion of India.

What did any Han know ever of Kailash and Mansarover? Go to China and ask any Han on the street if he knows about these even today. None. Yet ask any Indian if they know what Kailash and Mansarover signify. Not just today, but any Indian last 10,000 years.

India's cultural contiguity with Tibet is of essence to understand. We don't share that with the Han style of functioning. Even withing the Manchu setup there was little Han migration and Tibet remained fairly autonomous.

As civilisational entities we have pretty much been neighbours

Not close ones in any sense. I am well aware of Hu Shi statement..India conquered China without sending a single soldier across the border. But Chinese today are claiming Buddhism as theirs. Thats the reason behind their claim to AP. That extends actually to Bhutan and Sikkim too. These are not closed issues as long as we accede to their claim over Tibet, we're legitimizing in many ways their claims to AP, Sikkim, Bhutan. Our only way out is claiming and truthfully so that our cultural contiguity lies with Tibet and not Han China. We don't have an argument otherwise. Bodh Gaya will be next after China claims Nepal.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 15 Oct 2009 03:47

Nevertheless,

the Sino-Tibetan family is more or less accepted now. Of course the languages of the plateau are closer to those spoken in Burma but still part of a larger family.The script used is actually a derivative of Brahmi.

People in China pretty much knew about what was happening in India.Remember Xuangxuang came from Chang'an or what is Xian today. That's Chinese heartland not periphery . And he took back several self-copied texts from Nalanda with him to Xian.Chinese folk religion has shaivite worship elements in it. They knew the significance of Kailash /Mansarovar.

And look, what the Chinese will basically claim is that they developed Zen Buddhism. which incidentally is a direct descendant of tantric buddhism that originated in secret in places like Nalanda and Udyana.

Not close ones in any sense. I am well aware of Hu Shi statement..India conquered China without sending a single soldier across the border. But Chinese today are claiming Buddhism as theirs. Thats the reason behind their claim to AP. That extends actually to Bhutan and Sikkim too. These are not closed issues as long as we accede to their claim over Tibet, we're legitimizing in many ways their claims to AP, Sikkim, Bhutan. Our only way out is claiming and truthfully so that our cultural contiguity lies with Tibet and not Han China. We don't have an argument otherwise. Bodh Gaya will be next after China claims Nepal.

See that's my point too. Let them make facetious claims based on falsified history. it doesn't matter. if they don't tone it down , they will be taught a lesson. The Indian public will make sure of that.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Oct 2009 04:07

China begins building dam on its side of the Brahmaputra

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 15 Oct 2009 04:12

From the above article

So far, Beijing has denied any plans to build a dam on its side of the Brahmaputra river.

Oho so this is the "concession" that was being made to India previously.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 15 Oct 2009 04:15

Ok on the language front, there's not much clarity. But again seems British scholars in the early 19th century did language family stereotyping in racial methodology.

In 1823, Julius Klaproth suggested a modern-looking classification, nothing similar to which would be proposed again for over a century. He noted that the Burmese, Tibetan, and Chinese all shared common basic vocabulary, but that Thai and Vietnamese were quite different.

However, large-scale linguistic classification of the time was largely based on race rather than the languages themselves. For example, in 1855 Max Müller divided Eurasian languages into four families: Semitic, Aryan (Indo-European), Chinese, and Turanian (everything else; e.g. Northern Turanian was Ural-Altaic). (Later writers would include Chinese within Turanian.) Competing with this idea, and eventually winning out, was "Indo-Chinese". Nathan Brown used the term in 1837 for all "Oriental" languages except for Altaic and Dravidian (but including Korean and Japanese, as well as the languages of the Pacific islands). There was continuing debate between racially and linguistically based theories.

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A few scholars, most prominently Christopher Beckwith and Roy Andrew Miller, argue that Chinese is not related to Tibeto-Burman. They point to an absence of regular sound correspondences, an absence of reconstructable shared morphology,[1] and evidence that much shared lexical material has been borrowed from Chinese into Tibeto-Burman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Tibetan_languages

India has a different outlook to 'Indic inclusivity' based on cultural constructs and not racial ones. Having worked with many nationalities and being a 'North' Indian, i find it easier getting along with people who tend to think alike than just being racially similar to me. So Paki's are out for me and my closest circle of friends includes different racial groups and Tibetans too. Frankly i feel quite comfortable talking and opening up to many Americans than i can do with Paki's for that matter.

China believes more in the racial contiguity context all within the ambit of a harsh and authoritarian political context and makes friends accordingly. North Korea, Pakistan, Myanmar or props groups that support that sort of ideology. IMHO the battlelines are always drawn on ideological basis. This applies to the context India-Pakistan-China too.

The moment we abandon our shared cultural heritage in favor of 'controversial' racial and authoritarian approaches, classically reinforced by a resurgent liberal left wing analysis of events, we not only obfuscate the truth, but will fail to defend ourselves slowly. Planners in China see this dilemna India faces quite clearly. Planners in Pakistan see it too. Thats why the claims in AP. Sikkim, Bhutan, Maoists etc. India will once again have to stand up in defence of it's basic tolerant, pluralistic Indic heritage. It starts fundamentally with reclaiming our lost Indo-Tibetan kinship and refuting Han claims based on racial contiguity.

The ideological divide is clear and people will have to see it that way. China has already barked up the wrong way last 70 years. India is wiser it knows totalitarianism will eventually meet it's 72. But India cannot sit down and do nothing thinking it will happen on auto. India must be clear what it wants to defend. I met people today who said AP and Kashmir was not ours..i sure did give a nasty dressing down to a few. Hope you understand the implications of playing the dragons game..

Anyways Roy ji welcome to the forum.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 15 Oct 2009 04:30

Well to be frank,

I understand what you are saying. And it is true that our enemies will advance all kinds of theories to further their "material" claims. But in the final analysis it won't work in their favour at all.

I say this because despite the few chicken shits who think Kashmir or AP are not " really" part of their "conception" of India... , there are millions who become the most raving fanatics when anybody even suggests something of this sort.

What these claims show is that the PRC understands didly squat about propaganda.Basically it is making the same mistake that the Soviets did. They believed that given American democracy and shrillness it would be easy to "influence" people via paid proxies in the media and alternating bellicose and placatory musings from Moscow. Didn't work, because in every true democracy there is actually a majority of silent nationalists who will simply not buy this glop regardless of which side they voted for in the last election.

Moreover the chinese don't seem to understand that India does not need to make a claim of being Indic to stay together. The "secular" rhetoric coupled with universal franchise has made sure that the basis for Indianness is not just geography or history or mythos but actually belief in a system that has never been attempted before. So if I were to follow chinese logic, the Republic of India can technically incorporate even Suriname on a peaceful basis without any ideological inconsistency whatsoever.

Frankly speaking it has yielded results, indifferent at times, I admit, but has worked nevertheless. The democratic ethos has also spawned an amazing entertainment industry which is now actually one of best nation making tools at our disposal.

The Chinese don't even know what has hit them.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 15 Oct 2009 07:41

I think PRC will do some serious back pedalling in the coming days. Here is why...

1. It does not want its slaves and puppets in the party of mass murderers/rapist goons lose any more vote share or face. It wants them to be around to push India further into chaos. It cannot rely on Maoist eye-gougers to do this as they cant be controlled as effectively as the mass murderers. After all the Maoists believe in Mao, neither PRC nor their puppets here do!
2. It also does not want its yellow media puppets here not to be seen as treacherous leaches by even more educated Indians. They want them to wear their fake secular mask and continue to indulge in anti-India anti-Hindu pogrom on the sly.
3. It certainly does not want to provide a concrete reason for India closing up to Unkil even more and becoming a real strategic pain in the b..t

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Oct 2009 08:53

the next indian statement should be about Aksai Chin which china has illegally occupied since 1962 and build the karakoram highway across. Aksai Chin is a part of Ladakh and a part of India under illegal occupation of the chinese.