India-China News and Discussion

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Stan_Savljevic
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 06 Nov 2009 06:16

xpost.... Something is a-cooking, eagle eyes says so...
Ulfa chief Paresh Barua is in China to strike an arms deal with a Chinese company, home ministry sources have said. Barua is in Yunan province in southern China but may later leave for a major industrial city to meet his contacts in the company, known for its high-tech defence products, the sources said. The Ulfa commander-in-chief had visited Yunan last year too and this is his third visit to China in two years, the ministry officials said. They added that Barua was engaged in gun-running in Bangladesh besides plotting terror attacks in Assam.

More juicy details at
http://telegraphindia.com/1091106/jsp/n ... 706418.jsp

But the chini connection to ulfa shop should not surprise anyone who has watched the arms drop case. Subir Chowdhury also hints that ulfa-yunan connection is a long-standing one that GoI has failed to bring about except for chai-biskoot sessions. So it is not like GoI is not aware of the chini oiseaule-ry. It is just that it is not clear to aam aadmi as to what the GoI's response/planned response is. Certainly re-opening the Khampa axis is not beyond dreams.
China queers Jindals’ Aussie pitch
http://telegraphindia.com/1091106/jsp/b ... 706891.jsp

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sid_ashar » 06 Nov 2009 08:10

The first domino to fall before the Dalai Lama trip to AP... I suspect that the babus and politicos in Dilli are already seeing their feet and spine turn to clay before Nov 8th.. I fail to see what they are so scared of.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/world ... ?ref=world

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby santoshriyer » 06 Nov 2009 12:14

From the yello daily global times.

Described by the Indian foreign secretary as "complex," the relationship between China and India has once again become the focal point of Indian media, just days before the Dalai Lama visits.
Many India media questioned Thursday whether the Dalai Lama's scheduled visit to a disputed area in southern Tibet (which India calls Arunachal Pradesh) Sunday has strained ties with China.
"There is no strain in bilateral ties," the Hindustan Times quoted Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao as saying Wednesday the Dalai Lama's visit, on the sidelines of a seminar at the Institute for Defense Studies and Analyses in India.
"Our position is very clear," Rao said, while alluding to New Delhi's stance that the Dalai Lama can go anywhere in India, provided he does not indulge in political activities.
According to Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu Thursday, the three-day visit "further exposes the anti- China and separatist nature of the Dalai clique."
Ma also stressed that China is a responsible country and would not do anything detrimental to the interests of other countries.
However, it is not the only issue that stands between China and India.
Also there have been reports of China constructing a dam on the Brahmaputra River, which originates in southwestern Tibet and is known as the Yarlung Zangbo River in China.
After the Indian National Remote Sensing Agency reported some kind of construction on the Brahmaputra, Rao said the Chinese had denied they were building dams.

"What I want to say is that this matter has been taken up not just once but on a number of occasions with China, and China has consistently denied that it is engaged in any such construction activity on the Brahmaputra," she said.
"The point where they were making a dam is 1,100 kilometers away from our boundary. It's a small dam and no reservoir as such. They already have about 15 dams there, which they are using for local purposes," Indian water resources Minister P K Bansal told the Press Trust of India.
Meanwhile, commenting on the appearance of Chinese troops in southern Tibet, Indian Major General SS Jog, Commander of the Red Horn Division, said, "There is some sort of exercise, which they generally (carry out) during this particular time of year. They have done a few exercises, and certain amounts of troops have come in but it's a normal routine exercise."
There has been a flurry of reports in Indian media of Chinese incursions across the border, which have been shrugged off by both the Indian and Chinese governments, the ANI news agency said Wednesday.
"Many India media like to talk about China as a threat to India," Hu Shisheng, a researcher at the Institute of Asian and African Studies at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations, told the Global Times.
"This, I see, is a lack of confidence. This trend almost forms a set pattern of reporting. It is also possible that by calling China a threat, India is actually paving the way for a strong army," Hu added.
Senior journalists from Phoenix TV said Wednesday that inaccurate reports on many sensitive issues between China and India may lead to misunderstandings between the two countries and therefore put pressure on the governments' handling of relations.



http://china.globaltimes.cn/chinanews/2009-11/483032_2.html

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby ashkrishna » 06 Nov 2009 15:32

X-posting from military aviation thread..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Sukhoi-jets-in-NE-skies-from-next-week/articleshow/5202979.cms

Sukhoi jets in NE skies from next week

TEZPUR: Sukhoi fighter jets will start flying in the skies of the northeastern region from next
week.

According to defence officials, around six aircraft of the warplane's MKI variant have reached Tezpur air base in Assam a few days ago and a full complement of the warplanes is expected to arrive by the year end.

Flight training and operational sorties of the aircraft are likely to begin early next week and preparations were on in this regard, they said, adding that besides Tezpur, a full squadron of Sukhoi fighter jets would also be deployed at Chabua base in eastern Assam subsequently.

The IAF was also contemplating to deploy another squadron at Bagdogra air base in West Bengal, the officials said.

The Su-30s had operated from Tezpur air base when they were formally inducted in the base on June 15. Since then, the air base which has been upgraded to house the jets was also opened for civil aviation.

Four Su30s had landed at the base on June 12 for a symbolic induction and a fighter aircraft operated from the airbase after a gap of more than a year since MIG fighters were moved out of it, the officials said.

Having aerial refueling capability, the Su30 MKI multi-role combat jets have a combat radius of 1,500 km.

The MKI variant of the warplane which was inducted into the IAF in 2002 are said to have an impeccable safety record. The IAF already has three squadrons of Su-30 MKIs at Lohegaon and Bareilly.


The dalai lama is set to enter arunachal in less than a week....

Am I seeing things or is the GOI suddenly growing a spine....

interesting times ahead
Last edited by ashkrishna on 06 Nov 2009 16:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 06 Nov 2009 15:49

The malodorous sh*worms of the PRC made the cardinal mistake in insulting the good doctor personally.Even such a mild mannered man as MMS couldn't take his beard singed by the rabid vermin who run China.MMS and India had no alternative but to show the Chinse the upturned finger.Their arrogance has reached such a level of lunacy where they imagine that any part of the globe where a Chinaman squats belongs them.They give stiff competition to the Islamist lunatic fringe of the UK,who want the Queen to wear a burqa and turn Britain into an Islamic state,as to the who is the looniest on the planet.The Islamists appear to be high on hash and likewise the PRC gang of "Gin and Tonic" on opium!

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Nihat » 06 Nov 2009 16:26

The dalai lama is set to enter arunachal in less than a week....

Am I seeing things or is the GOI suddenly growing a spine....

interesting times ahead


This process was long due , the eastern sector has always demanded modern aircraft but owing to the presence of Left in GoI and the previous Pak-centric approach (with limited air assets) this was not done.

Tezpur was a well recognized base for Mig-21's earlier , they are only being replaced by MKI's

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby SSridhar » 07 Nov 2009 05:47

Subramanyam Swami asks for rescheduling HE Dalai Lama's visit to Tawang
Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy has urged the Union government to reschedule the Dalai Lama’s proposed visit to Tawang in Arunachal Pradesh, as what was a religious trip had assumed political overtones.

In a statement, Dr. Swamy said the Tibetan Bureau’s request for visas for a sizeable contingent of foreign journalists was inconsistent with the religious purpose of the visit.

The proposed visit was also complicated with the so-called Exile Government of Tibet in Dharamshala reportedly declaring that Tawang was not part of India but of “free” Tibet, he said.

Noting that the statement was ominous for India-China relations, Dr. Swamy urged the Centre to reschedule the Dalai Lama’s visit to a later date when a quiet pilgrimage could be hosted for the spiritual leader.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby csharma » 07 Nov 2009 08:41

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091106/ap_ ... ndia_china

Dalai Lama visit highlights India-China tensions

While a repeat of the 1962 border war between the two countries seems unlikely, the quarrel has underscored tensions — some stemming from India's swift economic growth and the increasing challenge it poses to Chinese dominance of the region.

"At the heart of all this anger, you see the subtext of India, this upstart, trying to compete with China," said Brahma Chellaney, an analyst at the Center for Policy Research in New Delhi.



Former Indian Foreign Secretary Lalit Mansingh said both sides regularly cross the long, unmarked boundary in an orchestrated effort to show sovereignty over the other side. Chinese troops leave their empty cigarette packs and beer cans on the Indian side; Indian troops clean them up and dump their own trash on the Chinese side.

"It's a lot of shadowboxing," he said.

India recently added thousands of troops to the region to counter the better roads and infrastructure on the other side of the border that would let Beijing rapidly send reinforcements, said Adm. Sureesh Mehta, recently retired chief of India's navy.

"They felt that was a capability gap that needed to be plugged," he said

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2009 11:51

http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/det ... 2509/at011

Tezpur tense over Army movements
Correspondent
TEZPUR, Oct 24 – Tension prevails among the local population of Arunachal Pradesh and the people here following reports of a border dispute between India and China. The proposed visit to Arunachal by the Dalai Lama on November 8 is also adding to the tension. Adding to this is the continuous movement of Army vehicles along the Tezpur to Arunachal road carrying heavy arms and ammunitions, since the past few days, which is leading the people to believe that another Indo-China war might be in the offing.

But, talking to this Correspondent, Defence PRO Col R Kalia allayed these fears and said that it was rather food and other rations which are being rushed to the border areas before snowfall begins, which is a routine procedure in the Army ahead of the winter season.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2009 11:53

http://trak.in/news/chinese-army-exerci ... hal/20149/

"red horn" is the mountain div based in rangiya fyi.

Chinese Army exercises north of Arunachal

by ANI on November 4, 2009

in National

Guwahati, Nov. 4 (ANI): The Chinese Army is conducting exercises in areas adjoining Arunachal Pradesh. This was disclosed by Major General S.S. Jog, General Officer Commanding the Red Horn Division, during a seminar on counter terrorism organised by the Army for officers and allied personnel engaged in anti-insurgency operations in Guwahati on Wednesday.

Apart from the serving officers, several retired personnel of the Indian Army and para-military forces shared their views and expertise in counter-insurgency operations.

To a poser on intrusion by Chinese troops in the neighbouring Arunachal Pradesh state, Major General S S Jog, General Office Commanding of the Red Horn Division, said: “There is some sort of exercises, which they generally do during this particular time of the year. They have done a few exercises and certain amounts of troops have come in but it’s normal routine exercise.”

There has been a flurry of reports in Indian media of Chinese incursions along the border-shrugged off by both the Indian and Chinese governments.

Consequently, New Delhi protested against a Chinese Foreign Ministry’s policy of issuing different visas to residents of disputed northern region of Jammu and Kashmir state.

Major General (retied) Gaganjit Singh said that although things have improved a lot in Assam the ultimate peace is yet to return.

“The things have changed a lot. What it was in 10 years back it’s not now today. Firstly, the public of Assam have realised that insurgency has given them no benefit. That realisation is a big achievement. Secondly, I can only say that ultimate peace has not come. It takes time for everything,” said Major General Singh. (ANI)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2009 11:56

http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/det ... v0409/at04

Acclimatization holds key in China border
R Dutta Choudhury
GUWAHATI, Nov 3 – Proper acclimatization of the Army personnel deployed in the posts along the border with China in Arunachal Pradesh is a major issue as no one can be deployed in such altitude without going through the different stages of acclimatization.

Army sources told The Assam Tribune that no Army man is posted in the forward posts without going through the acclimatization schedule, which varies depending on the altitude in which the particular person is to be posted. All the persons will also have to be medically fit to adapt to the height.

Sources said that the Army has chalked out a thorough acclimatization regime for all the officers and men deployed along the border with China as no one can be deployed in such altitude directly from the plains. Any person working on any plain area for years cannot be expected to work properly in such heights without allowing his body to adapt to lack of oxygen, sources added.

Giving an account of the schedule followed by all the Army personnel deployed along the border with China, sources said that the acclimatization schedule is different for the Army men depending on the area in which they are posted and normally they have to undergo three to six stages of acclimatization.

The process starts at the height of around 9,000 feet above the sea level. The acclimatization schedule in every stage varies from four to six days. The personnel are allowed complete rest on the first day in every stage ofacclimatization and on the next day, they are allowed to walk slowly for around 300 metres but they are not allowed to go for any climb on the way. Gradually, they are allowed to walk for longer distances and on the final day ofacclimatization in every stage, the personnel are allowed to walk up to five kilometers and they are even allowed to climb on steep roads. The same process is repeated in every stage ofacclimatization before the personnel are deployed along the international border.

Sources said that no human being can adapt to such altitude without proper acclimatization and there have been instances of people falling sick even while traveling on vehicles. During the different stages of acclimatization, the Army personnel are issued strict instructions to contact doctors immediately whenever they feel headache, cough, chest pain, and breathlessness etc so that they receive medical attention immediately as any delay in treatment can lead to serious consequences. Even after completion of the stages ofacclimatization, the Army personnel have to go through a thorough medical check up to ensure that they are physically fit to work in the posts along the border, sources added.

The Indian Army has also established a high altitude training school near Tawang following the Kargil war to ensure that the Indian Army personnel are adapted to deal with heights while guarding the country’s frontiers. Army sources said that thetraining base is of immense help to the Army men as they are now better prepared to work in high altitude after going through the rigors of training in an altitude of around 14,000 feet above the sea level.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby asprinzl » 07 Nov 2009 13:50

I don't know if the facts sink in or not but till India achieves strategic parity with China, no amount of Sukhois or MRCAs or MRLSs or cannons will stop China from doing their shennanigans that they are doing now. India need more ICBMs, gigaton nuke warheads and more Arihants. Only then would China grudgingly accept India as equal and stop cease their "games".

These Sukhois, Mirages, tanks, cannons, little rockets and several dozen extra divisions of infantry are all ad-hoc tactical measures that may seem to improve local situations but does not effect the calculations in Beijing. The only game changing calculation will be a single warhead that is capable of erasing a Beijing or or Shanghai. Till then China will NOT be cowed.

Indian leaders need to get over this self-stroking ego emasculating perception of "we are a democracy" and the nonsense BS of "minimum credible deterrent" and another BS of "no first use".
I am sick and tired of people who live in the deluded world of "democratic superiority". Democracy didn't stop Sparta from defeating Athens in the end. For nearly two million years from the stage of proto-humanoid till today, humans and their ancestors have fought and killed for the preservation and propagation of either their species, sub-species, tribes, clans or family against other species, sub-species, tribes, clans or families. At the minute the Chinese system is superior. Yes, right this minute. I am not speculating about what would happen and hour from now.

Two thousand years of limited experience in democracy cannot be the barometer to measure its superiority compared to nearly two million years of reality.

I am not going to say that nations that are unwilling to fight for their interests don't deserve to live but in most of recorded history these nations didn't live to tell their story. They were in most cases destroyed, assimilated or eaten by others.
Avram

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Hari Seldon » 07 Nov 2009 13:56

Tremendous post there, Avram.

Which is why I believe,despite karmic forces in action, that we *have to* act ion our new clear interests. Have to force a Samson option of bringing down the present cozy world order should we be cornered into doing so.

Yup, history does show that Yindia has lost territory and wealth, people and dignity - all to foolishness. The next round of foolishness will cost us everything, I fear.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 07 Nov 2009 14:13

Avram,

India needs parity in other fields. Strategically they are either close to fine or will make-do. What will strategic parity do to a nation that is devoid of all else? And, it is a national issue. India is risk averse and we talk big - not just Indian leaders.

Left parties saved India: Rahul Bajaj

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2009 15:10

we need strategic parity and conventional theatre superiority.

over the last few months I have read a lot of history - east asia, china , india, byzantium, ancient civilizations,
maoris, new guinean uplanders the whole lot.

one trend that emerges is that Empire's cannot rest easy in a stable state if they want to survive long. there
cannot be a permanent closed boundary beyond which they do not aspire to search and dominate. moment you
stop the expansion , it will last for a while on inertia but then all the hungry, lean wolves on the periphery
will move in and tear it apart. the search for influence, power and resources must always go on - even to stay in one place, the system needs to keep running.

Ashoka ruled over a vast empire. The Maurya dynasty collapsed in 100 yrs after his demise.
the successor Sunga ruled over a much smaller area. Ashoka was no doubt a great ruler and humanist,
but his policy of dhamma could not support a long lasting and stable empire.

these days it is not physical expansion of suzerainty but domination of trade routes outside geographical borders, seekeing partner nations for trade, cultural exports, expeditionary military abilities, destablizing and dominating the political structure of any hostile states on periphery, making friends with enemies enemy that 'expands the bubble' beyond the national borders.

PRC seems to assiduously following these guidelines. its bubble has expanded a lot compared to 1990.
we have also expanded, but not as much - we need to make up for lost time and decades of not showing
the required ruthlessness in these matters.

we need to expand into CAR region, seal off the pakis and chinis and embrace the oceans just as the
pallavas and cholas did with great success.
Last edited by Singha on 07 Nov 2009 19:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby kmkraoind » 07 Nov 2009 15:15

US supports Dalai Lama visit to Indian state

Definitely this will be put Chinese strategists at Beijing in dilemma. As Avram saab told, better to India to accelerate Agni-3 testing and induction.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2009 17:00

Welcome to Tawang and Arunachal Pradesh your Holiness! We remember with sadness your flight to safety via Tawang 50 years ago when the rapacious, ungodly,bloodthirsty,warmongering war criminals of the PRC invaded your country and have ravaged the land to this day in the most inhuman,despicable manner.We wait for the day when the PRC collapses under the weight of its contradictions and Tibet once again becomes a free independent land.We in India fully support you and the independence of Tibet (and a thousand plagues upon the house of Chin!).

More than any testing of Agni-3 would be the further testing of our TN warheads,as 20-45KT is "embarrassing" in the words of eminent US analysts,the two "Normans",Friedman and Polmar (details posted earlier),as these small warheads cannot destroy modern "concrete cities" completely,unlike wooden buildings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.It is because of this fact that the superpowers have designed and tested TN weapons of at least 200KT+ to deal with modern underground command centres,etc.Why even Saddam obtained German nuclear bunkers buried hundreds of ft. underground.

Here is an outsider's view of the Indo-Sino spat.The interesting point is that Tibet in 1914,long before the Red Chinese invaded that independent country,"ceded" Arunachal Pradesh to British India and acknowledged the boundary as the McMahon Line.Where was the great Communist Chinese empire at that time?IT was created AFTER Indian independence at that and therefore has no locus standi!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 906997.ece
Dalai Lama caught in the middle as China-India border dispute comes to the boil
A Buddhist monk prepares a fitting welcome for the Dalai Lama before his visit to Arunachal. China has expressed "grave concerns" about the trip

Jeremy Page in Guwahati, Assam

Anyone over the age of 62 in the town of Tawang has a unique claim to fame: they have lived under four national flags — British, Tibetan, Indian and Chinese.

The tiny outpost in northeastern India repeatedly changed hands in the chaos that accompanied the birth of Communist China and independent India. The last time was in 1962, when Chinese troops briefly overran the Himalayan town and the surrounding area, known today as the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh.

Today Tawang is once again the focus of a border dispute between the world’s two most populous countries, now both nuclear armed, and competing for superpower status.

The Dalai Lama, Tibet’s spiritual leader, will begin a visit tomorrow to Arunachal; an event that is expected to push relations between Delhi and Beijing to their lowest level in a decade. He has been here before but this visit has added significance because China is reasserting its claim to Arunachal and this year is the 50th anniversary of the Dalai Lama’s escape to India — via Tawang.

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It follows months of increasing tensions between the two economic giants over natural resources in Africa, naval control of the Indian Ocean and even space.

China has expressed its “grave concerns” about the visit. “We believe this once again exposes the nature of the Dalai Lama as anti-China,” said Ma Zhaoxu, a foreign ministry official.

China says Tibet is an integral part of its territory and sees the Dalai Lama as a dangerous separatist. India, however, allows him to run a government-in-exile from a north Indian hill station and says he is free to travel wherever he likes. Manmohan Singh, the Prime Minister, made that clear to China’s Premier, Wen Jiabao, when they met in Thailand last month. “I explained to Premier Wen that the Dalai Lama is our honoured guest,” Mr Singh said.

The Dalai Lama has tried to downplay the visit’s significance. “The Chinese Government politicises too much wherever I go,” he said. “Where I go is not political.”

Few analysts agree, however. Tawang is the most contentious point along the eastern border, known as the McMahon Line, after Sir Henry McMahon, the British official who drew it on the map.

In 1914 he negotiated the Simla Accord, under which the Tibetan Government ceded what is now Arunachal to British India. In practice, the McMahon Line was never enforced until 1951, when Indian troops took control of Tawang. China, however, never accepted the accord nor the line, and continues to claim Arunachal as “South Tibet”. India, for its part, claims 15,000 sq miles of Chinese-held territory in the Aksai Chin area bordering Kashmir.

For 47 years, the dispute has quietly simmered through 12 rounds of fruitless negotiations. This year, however, it has bubbled to the surface.

In March China tried to block a $2.9 billion (£1.7 billion) Asian Development Bank loan for India because part of it was earmarked for Arunachal. In June J. J. Singh, Arunachal’s governor, infuriated China by saying that 60,000 more Indian soldiers were being sent to the region.

The same month India deployed four Sukhoi jets capable of carrying nuclear weapons in Assam and stopped issuing visas to non-skilled Chinese workers last month. China began issuing visas on separate pieces of paper to Indians from Kashmir.

Analysts are divided on which side is to blame for the growing tension. Some say Indian hawks are fuelling the controversy because they want their Government to invest more in border infrastructure and weaponry. Most agree, however, that war is unlikely — but they also agree that both sides increasingly see each other as military and economic rivals.

“India is sending the message: enough is enough,” said Bharat Verma, editor of the Indian Defence Review, who predicted recently that China would attack India by 2012. “Indian policy on China has been meek until now. The reality is that China has succeeded in encircling India. New Delhi is waking up to that.”

Rivals on the global stage

In September 2008 Chinese astronauts walked in space for the first time. India officially joined the space race a month later, sending its first unmanned mission into orbit to broadcast live on television — to the backing of the Star Wars soundtrack

The two countries are competing to invest in Afghanistan. India joined the top tier of donors in August, pledging $1.2 billion (£720m) in assistance. China has invested $3.5 billion in an oilfield, the largest investment in Afghanistan

In February an Indian submarine and two Chinese warships almost faced off in the Indian Ocean. The situation was resolved when the submarine left the area

China is developing a deep-water harbour for its expanding fleet of nuclear submarines in Gwadar, Pakistan, and is establishing ports in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. India plans to counter the Chinese “string of pearls” by establishing a naval base and listening post in the Maldives, integrating the islands into its own coastguard system

China’s two-way trade flow with Africa has grown tenfold since 2000, to a total of $107 billion last year. Indian trade with the continent is put at about $30 billion

Sources: Times database, Mail and Guardian


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby a_kumar » 07 Nov 2009 23:27

asprinzl wrote:I am not going to say that nations that are unwilling to fight for their interests don't deserve to live but in most of recorded history these nations didn't live to tell their story. They were in most cases destroyed, assimilated or eaten by others.
Avram


I wish this was etched in the hallways of JNU and MEA!!

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby kshirin » 08 Nov 2009 01:06

kmkraoind wrote:US supports Dalai Lama visit to Indian state

Definitely this will be put Chinese strategists at Beijing in dilemma. As Avram saab told, better to India to accelerate Agni-3 testing and induction.


And shoot from our shoulder while they hide safely behind us! They should not preach what they cannot practise. And they do not lose if they get us to fight each other.

The need is to bolster internal governance, look how much Koda manages to stash away in just one day, and see the poverty statistics in India, even government organisations are quoting unbelievable figures. Shekhar Gupta's article:
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/oppor ... a/538361/0

excerpts:
But national power and pride are no longer determined merely in terms of territorial size or integrity. ...If the current differential in our economic growth and China’s continues for another decade, many of our border populations will start asking us, and themselves, some hard questions. Are we prepared for that?

If we want to, we will have learn to look at China through a new prism, as an opportunity, rather than as a threat or enemy. Opportunity, because you can use the Chinese example to push for faster decision-making, decisive governance, economic reform to at least slow down the pace by which we are falling behind. If you merely focus on the military, you will be trapped forever in the “threat” syndrome and losing the real battle before you even joined it.


Problem with China is due to Dalai's insistence on greater Tibet. There is a good article by Prem Shankar Jha in Tehelka but I cannot find the link and I have been prohibited from posting the full texts for copyright reasons, you will have to find it, read it, good one.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby a_bharat » 08 Nov 2009 04:24

3 reasons China is hopeful on Pakistan
Hu also offers an interesting take on the Kashmir issue, routinely cited by Pakistani leaders as the root cause of their problems. “Pakistan wants to keep its identity distinct from India. This is why it keeps a strong army, involves itself in Afghanistan and uses its Islamic influence.” So it’s not Kashmir, but “the philosophy of survival” that is at the root of the crisis in Pakistan.

But Beijing also realizes that Islamabad’s writ does not always run in the country’s conflict-ridden areas. This explains the agreements between the Communist Party of China and Pakistan’s Jamat-e-Islami and the local governments of Xingjian and the NWFP. China believes these forces can help make sure that Islamic fundamentalism does not spill over to Xingjian where extremists are trying to carve out a new country called East Turkmenistan. China’s biggest fear is that the Xingjian uprising will be seen as an Islamist issue and attract the attention of jihadis from across the world. That, in essence, is why Beijing needs Islamabad so badly it needs to believe Pakistan is a functioning, not failing, state.


Just as the western world would want to see the jehadi forces directed towards India (away from them), India should find ways to direct at least some of them towards China.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby vera_k » 08 Nov 2009 04:33

We might get a bigger jolt than 1962: Brajesh Mishra

I think, we should equip our forces as soon as possible. Our forces should be properly equipped. We are not doing enough in this regard at the moment and I am afraid that in the next five years we might get a bigger jolt than ’62.


Hmm, this one below is curious. Is he implicitly admitting we lack deterrence against China?

China even sees Japan also as an adversary. But Japan has the backing of United States, which has covered it under nuclear protection. No we do not have the backing of anyone else.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby csharma » 08 Nov 2009 05:04

From BM's interview.

China always wanted to be the number one. It sees itself as number two right now. But United States will continue to rule the roost in coming times in world geopolitical scenario. But Russia too has ambitions. It doesn’t want to be number three. Recently, anti-Russian articles too have appeared in China. It wants to cut its future competitors short before becoming number 1 in the next 25 years.


BM sounding the warning is ominous. He mentions that India is not doing enough to equip its forces. Now since this is under India's control, it should move fast on this.

When Bharat Verma said China would attack India by 2012, a lot of people ridiculed him but now even Brajesh Mishra is talking of joint China Pak attack in 5 years. All the service chiefs are talking about the China threat.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby csharma » 08 Nov 2009 05:18

One thing I do not understand is that people like Brajesh Mishra talk about India becoming a sixth independent pole of power. And when they feel the heat from another power, they start saying that we do not have protection from the US or some other power. Sounds a bit contradictory to me.

Or is he laying the basis of a closer India US alignment by citing China Pak threat. The threat obviously is real. As India is trying to assert itself as a regional power, this would be a good time for them to clip India's wings before it becomes stronger.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby rajrang » 08 Nov 2009 06:53

kmkraoind wrote:US supports Dalai Lama visit to Indian state

Definitely this will be put Chinese strategists at Beijing in dilemma. As Avram saab told, better to India to accelerate Agni-3 testing and induction.


For weeks India has stood up to Chinese threats on India to prevent HH Dalai Lama's visit to AP. Congratulations to India for this! During this period the US was conspicously silent. Finally a day or two before the visit, a junior US official lends support to the visit. This reminds me of Bollywood movies in past years when the police would slowly turn up after the hero has finished the job (of aprehending the bad guys). This suggests a certain ambiguity of the Obama administration on the India-China confrontation. Under the (previous) Bush administration, this ambiguity was nearly absent. Recall the numerous military exercises close to the Chinese border. This reflects the lack of understanding of world affairs and history on the part of President Obama.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2009 06:57

vera_k wrote:We might get a bigger jolt than 1962: Brajesh Mishra

I think, we should equip our forces as soon as possible. Our forces should be properly equipped. We are not doing enough in this regard at the moment and I am afraid that in the next five years we might get a bigger jolt than ’62.


Hmm, this one below is curious. Is he implicitly admitting we lack deterrence against China?

China even sees Japan also as an adversary. But Japan has the backing of United States, which has covered it under nuclear protection. No we do not have the backing of anyone else.



Yet he slept on the job to redress the ambiguity of the POKII tests. He cant have it both ways. Claim to be a savant now.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby rajrang » 08 Nov 2009 07:04

Philip wrote:Welcome to Tawang and Arunachal Pradesh your Holiness! We remember with sadness your flight to safety via Tawang 50 years ago when the rapacious, ungodly,bloodthirsty,warmongering war criminals of the PRC invaded your country and have ravaged the land to this day in the most inhuman,despicable manner.
[/quote]

Maybe I am getting a sentimental here. I wish India would formally welcome any Tibetan to migrate to India and live as Indian citizens, free to practise their religion, their culture for as long as they want. Maybe this situation already exists. The Parsis and Jews of India are good examples of very small communities that have survived (or should I say thrived) in India for centuries, preserving their identities and culture. In other words the people of Tibet may have lost their land, but they can have the whole of India to 'adopt' as their home!

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 08 Nov 2009 07:14

Comparing India and China
Ryan Streeter, a fellow at the Legatum Institute, tells me that “India beats China solidly owing to the way that its governance contributes to the economy. That is the democratic institutions index, where India is 36 and China 100. Couple that with other key measures of governance, freedom and social capital—social capital is amazingly high in India, which is ranked fifth in the world—and India is far more prosperous than its rival”.

The social capital component is especially interesting. “Indian citizens report high levels of membership in community organizations, allowing for a broad network of social capital,” the report concludes.

Indians seem to be like Americans in this respect. When Alexis de Tocqueville published his magisterial account of the American experiment, Democracy in America, he was struck by the high degree of social capital he observed during his travels. Americans were a nation of joiners, he witnessed. Indians seem to be similar in that regard—indeed, Indians are even ahead of the US on this metric, which ranks two spots behind, at seventh, in the world. And the report’s authors note that high levels of social capital are needed to bolster human happiness.

My colleague at the American Enterprise Institute Roger Bate notes that “China outperforms India in both of the main economic sub-indices because it provides greater economic certainty to investors, receiving far more foreign investment than India. Still, the overall index implies that trouble is brewing for China as it loses out to India in all other sub-indices, especially in its lack of democracy and personal freedom”.
...............
Indeed, on my visits to India, I am always struck at how vibrant Indian democracy is and how robustly pervasive the sense of personal freedom is. There is a rowdy, even chaotic, spirit in India that is refreshing and lively and is the hallmark of a free people enjoying their rights and liberties.

There are, of course, areas in which India needs to make significant progress. Education, health, and safety and security are all areas in which India’s performance is badly lagging much of the rest of the world.

But the overall picture is quite encouraging. And in this version of the India versus China parlour game, we must tip our cap to India.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby vera_k » 08 Nov 2009 10:27

ramana wrote:Yet he slept on the job to redress the ambiguity of the POKII tests. He cant have it both ways. Claim to be a savant now.


Yes, he comes off as a doofus with his contradictory positions. It is difficult to reconcile his position about having sufficient nuclear deterrence with this interview. For if that deterrence genuinely exists, it should be possible to lower the nuclear threshold to preempt any mischief by China and Pak. The only way both positions can be truthful if he is convinced the weapons designers cannot deliver on the deterrence, and yet the appearance of deterrence has to be kept up purely for domestic consumption.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby anishns » 08 Nov 2009 11:10

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 208474.cms

TAWANG: Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, arrived in Arunachal Pradesh on Sunday on a four-day visit which has drawn widespread interest
in the wake of objections raised by China.

The 74-year-old Tibetan monk, who flew here from Guwahati by a helicopter, was received at the helipad by Arunachal chief minister Dorjee Khandu and other ministers.

The 14th Dalai Lama, who will be staying in the 300-year-old Tawang monastery, will hold religious discourses for the Buddhist community. The visit coincides with 50 years of his arrival in Tawang in 1959 after a failed uprising in Tibet against China.


:) :D

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby santoshriyer » 08 Nov 2009 11:11

anishns wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Dalai-Lama-arrives-in-Tawang/articleshow/5208474.cms

TAWANG: Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, arrived in Arunachal Pradesh on Sunday on a four-day visit which has drawn widespread interest
in the wake of objections raised by China.

The 74-year-old Tibetan monk, who flew here from Guwahati by a helicopter, was received at the helipad by Arunachal chief minister Dorjee Khandu and other ministers.

The 14th Dalai Lama, who will be staying in the 300-year-old Tawang monastery, will hold religious discourses for the Buddhist community. The visit coincides with 50 years of his arrival in Tawang in 1959 after a failed uprising in Tibet against China.


:) :D


Way to go GOI. Its time now to wait for the chinese reaction or NO reaction :P

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby santoshriyer » 08 Nov 2009 13:07

CHINA SMILES AT INDIA, US
B.RAMAN


During the last one month or so, Chinese policy-makers have suffered two diplomatic set-backs-----one at the hands of India and the other at the hands of the US.


2. The diplomatic set-back at the hands of India relates to the visit of His Holiness the Dalai Lama to Tawang in Arunachal Pradesh, which the Chinese claim as their territory and refer to as Southern Tibet.For over 10 weeks, the Chinese Communist Party controlled media and spokespersons of the Chinese Foreign Office have maintained a high-profile campaign against the visit. The purpose of the campaign was to exercise pressure on the Government of India not to allow His Holiness to go to Arunachal Pradesh. The Government of India has declined to intervene in the matter and maintained the position that as a Buddhist leader, His Holiness was free to go anywhere in India so long as he does not indulge in any activities of a political nature. While Beijing tried to project the visit as part of His Holiness' political machinations to split Tibet from China, New Delhi politely, but firmly stuck to its stand that the visit was purely a spiritual one in his capacity as a highly venetrated leader of the Buddhists.


3.Now that China's high-profile media and diplomatic campaign against the visit has failed to produce results, the question is what next. Will the visit have a negative impact on Sino-Indian relations? Will it add to Sino-Indian cross-border tensions? Will China further step up the diplomatic and media pressure on India as it sought to do against France and some other European Union countries last year to pre-empt a movement for the boycott of the Beijing Olympics?


4.It will take time for clear-cut answers to these questions to emerge, but there are already some indicators to show that Beijing is keen not to allow its set-back to affect its over-all relationship with India. After a long time, the Party-owned "People's Daily" has come out on November 4,2009, with an unsigned article on Sino-Indian relations, which is refreshingly positive. The text of the article is annexed.


5. After reviewing the over-all relations, the article says: " Generally speaking, Sino-Indian relations witnessed smooth development over the past decades, but some pending issues and unnecessary misunderstanding have plagued bilateral ties. It is of vital importance to combat various pressures and challenges through collaboration. Media from both countries should play a constructive role, creating a healthy environment to facilitate public opinion. China and India, the two neighbors with the world's largest population, are forging ahead towards peace and development, which is the common wish of both leaders and people."


6.The diplomatic set-back at the hands of the US related to the Chinese demand that the Barack Obama Administration should hand over to China six Uighur detenus in the Guantanamo Bay detention centre against whom no evidence warranting their prosecution on terrorism-related charges could be found. The Chinese contended that these Uiighurs belonged to the Islamic Movement of Eastern Turkestan, which is an associate of Al Qaeda. The Obama Administration politely turned down the Chinese demand and sent the Uighurs away to the Pacific island nation of Palau. It has stuck to the policy of the Bush Administration of not handing over to China Uighur suspects detained in Afghanistan on suspicion of their involvement with Al Qaeda----- a suspicion which could not be ultimately proved. Human rights and Congressional circles in the US have been strongly opposed to these Uighurs being handed over to China lest they be executed by the Chinese as terrorists.


7. On November 6,2009, the Government-controlled Xinhua news agency disseminated a strongly-worded criticism of the US action in which the US was accused of connivance with the Uighur terrorists and of double standards in counter-terrorism, but this commentary seems to be a purely proforma expression of Chinese unhappiness over the US action, which will not affect Sino-American ties.


8. On the eve of the forthcoming visit of President Obama to China, to which both countries attach considerable importance, the Chinese media and Government spokesmen continue to highlight the positive in the bilateral relations without overplaying the negative. This is evident from an article on Sino-American relations carried by the "People's Daily" on November 2,2009. It has been written by Wang Xinjun, an associate researcher of war theory and strategy at China's Academy of Military Sciences.


9. This article, which is a review of the recent visit of Xu Caihou, Vice-Chairman of China's Central Military Commission, to the US, has expressed satisfaction over the developing military-military ties with the US and says:" In the post-cold war era, China has put an end to its ideological restrictions and striven to develop its cooperative ties with countries the world over on the basis of mutual respect and mutual benefit; China has earnestly learned from all advanced things from the U.S. with an open approach instead of following the beaten track of taking the nation as its "sworn foe". Objectively speaking, the achievements China has so far attained contain much sophisticated experience and technologies it has imported from the U.S. In face of the current world beset with crises, any single, individual force is inadequate to cope with crisis. China and the U.S. are important countries in the world, and have unshakable responsibilities for global peace and security. Both nations should deem it their own duty or responsibility for the promotion of permanent peace and security for humanity; both should discard the cold war mentality, act in line with new principles of equality, respect and cooperation, seek the common ground while reserving their differences, reduce suspicion, and increase the mutual confidence, so as to build up a Sino-U.S. strategic partnership in the 21st century and work together to meet stark challenges facing the humanity. This could bring happiness to their people and to the people around worldwide as well."


10. These articles relating to India and the US bring out the dual Chinese policy of tactical firmness and strategic flexibility. This consists of tactical assertion of what they look upon as China's core interests while not allowing such assertions to affect their strategic relationships with the two countries. (8-11-09)


( The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. He is also associated with the Chennai Centre For China Studies. E-mail: seventyone2@gmail.com )


ANNEXURE


China, India expected to forge common prosperity and development


"People's Daily" commentary of November 4, 2009


During the talks in the resort city of Hua Hin, Thailand, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and his Indian counterpart Manmohan Singh agreed that the two countries should forge a strategic partnership to maintain regional peace and stability, achieve the goal of common development and harmonious prosperity. On the disputed border issues, the two sides agreed to narrow the differences through dialogue on the political principles already reached, and jointly work out a solution that goes in line with the interests of both sides. The two sides also need to ensure peace and create a friendly environment in border areas, as well as enhance cooperation and bilateral ties in various aspects.


The consensus between Premier Wen and Indian PM Singh is just like a gentle breeze, clearing up all the suspicion and misunderstanding that have hindered bilateral relations over the past decades. Sino-Indian relations are steadily on the rise despite the ups and downs over the past decades. Leaders from both countries reached agreement that China and India would never regard each other as a threat, which served as a political foundation for the development of bilateral ties from strategic perspective.


Economic and trade cooperation between China and India witnessed robust growth, with bilateral trade volume standing at 51.8 billion U.S. dollars in 2008. India is among China's top ten largest trading partners, and China is India's largest trading partner. Two-way investment also experienced fast growth.


In military cooperation, the military from both countries conducted exchange visits and maintained regular communications, and signed memorandum of understanding on defense exchange and cooperation, putting forward the idea of regular, long-term and large-scale cooperation in terms of training, anti-terrorism as well as joint research-and-rescue operations.


The two Asian neighbors also expanded cooperation in the fields of social exchange, culture and education. In international affairs, China and India have made unrelenting efforts in tackling global economic downturn, climate change, energy security, food security, anti-piracy and anti-terrorism operations.


Generally speaking, Sino-Indian relations witnessed smooth development over the past decades, but some pending issues and unnecessary misunderstanding have plagued bilateral ties. It is of vital importance to combat various pressures and challenges through collaboration. Media from both countries should play a constructive role, creating a healthy environment to facilitate public opinion.


China and India, the two neighbors with the world's largest population, are forging ahead towards peace and development, which is the common wish of both leaders and people.


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby santoshriyer » 08 Nov 2009 14:57

An 'emotional' Dalai Lama [ Images ] on Sunday hit out at China for opposing his visit to Arunachal Pradesh and expressed surprise over Chinese claims to Tawang.

The spiritual leader, who arrived at Tawang on a four-day visit to this town, said it was usual for the Chinese to protest wherever he goes and his trip here was "non-political".

Recalling the Sino-India war in 1962, the Dalai Lama told reporters that the People's Liberation Army of China had occupied Tawang and nearly reached Bom Dila that year.

"But the then Chinese government declared a unilateral ceasefire and withdrew (its forces). Now the Chinese have got different views. This is something which I really don't know. I am little bit surprised," he said in an apparent reference to Chinese claims over Tawang.

On Chinese opposition to his visit, the 74-year-old Dalai Lama said, "That is quiet usual. Wherever I go they protest. It is totally baseless. The Chinese Communists turn quite sad usually on my every movement. Of course my visit here is non-political."

On his visit, he said he was getting "emotional" as he had crossed this town in 1959 while fleeing from Tibet [ Images ].

"I get emotional. When I escaped I had mental stress and anxiety. I had feeling of hopelessness. But the moment I saw (Krishna) Menon and other MEA officials on the border then I had a feeling of reunion and safe," the Dalai Lama said.

"So, now I am very happy to be here. My main aim of the visit is promotion of human values wherever I go. Just now I returned from Japan [ Images ] where I explained that the ultimate source of happiness of life is within ourselves," he said.

Asked whether he had any message for China, he said, "nothing, no, nothing."

The Dalai Lama said the Tibet Buddhist religion and the culture are passing through a difficult period.

"So for preservation of Tibetan Buddhism and culture in this country and in this area the people have the real responsibility. Many people, particularly young, belonging to the Tibetan refugee community are joining monastery and various Tibetan institutions which is a very hopeful sign," he said.

The Dalai Lama said, particularly in south India 2,000 such community members have joined the institutions and the local people are showing genuine interest to study Buddhism and preserve its culture.



HH Dalai Lama rocks 8)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby santoshriyer » 08 Nov 2009 16:13

NEW DELHI: The government for the first time on Sunday said that the Maoists are getting arms from China, which is a "big supplier" of small
weapons.

"Chinese are big smugglers... suppliers of small arms. I am sure that the Maoists also get them," home secretary G K Pillai said when asked if the Naxals were having links with China.

The home secretary said the government has no information that the Maoists have any links with China except getting arms. "I do not think so, except getting arms," he told reporters on the sidelines of a function here.

Pillai, however, did not elaborate whether the Maoists were getting arms from Chinese arms smugglers or official agencies.

Home minister P Chidambaram had said in an interview last month that the Maoists are acquiring weapons through Bangladesh, Myanmar and possibly Nepal.

"We know now that the weapons are coming through Bangladesh and Myanmar and possibly Nepal. The border is very porous. The Indo-Nepal border is a very porous border." he had said.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rupesh » 08 Nov 2009 17:06

Weightlifting
A stronger India must counter China with open-minded caution
K.S. BAJPAI

Patel’s letter listed 10 precautions, including military and intelligence appreciations, reappraising military preparedness, constructing and policing boundary posts, political and administrative measures and internal security. Nehru, normally politely prompt in correspondence, didn’t answer Patel: recognising Bajpai’s views, he walked into his office and laughed—“So you are marshalling the big guns behind you”. Indirectly, though, Nehru responded with his China assessment in his November 17 letter to chief ministers. As in his other ruminations, one can detect signs of firmness and realism amongst idealistic hopes and historical imagination. But little except administrative consolidation was done regarding the main purpose of the November 7 letter. Instead, while insisting we stood by our frontiers, we went ahead with reducing the army: 52,000 less in 1950, another 1,00,000 less planned for 1951.

Some 60 years later, we are still seen as caught between the down-to-earth toughness attributed to Patel and the softness associated with Nehru. The realistic approach, so simple and obvious that it hardly needs formulation, needs projection: you must be seen as ready and able to look after your interests purposefully and efficiently. That is where our ways of functioning are our own worst enemies.

An American newcomer to Chinese ways recently observed “how arrogant they have become”. An experienced colleague replied, “When were they not arrogant? The trouble is now they have power”. Remarkable real achievement reinforcing their historic sense of superiority, many Chinese have become more disdainful or intimidating—to everyone. Considering how our own swaggering loudmouths upset our neighbours—arrogance without comparable power—Chinese excesses should not surprise us. The next superpower expects deference, if not obedience. Its heavy treading on our sensitivity is typical of a wider attitude.


clicky

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby AdityaM » 08 Nov 2009 19:21

santoshriyer wrote:
NEW DELHI: The government for the first time on Sunday said that the Maoists are getting arms from China, which is a "big supplier" of small
weapons.
"Chinese are big smugglers... suppliers of small arms. I am sure that the Maoists also get them," home secretary G K Pillai said when asked if the Naxals were having links with China.

santoshriyer, please provide link from where you quote.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 208958.cms
From the way Pillai said it on TV, it appears that this was a freudian slip.
I am sure there is going to be a re-traction

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby khan » 08 Nov 2009 19:47

With Pakistan tied up on its Western Border, the Himalayas snowing up and the Military Gap between India and China showing no sign of shrinking any time soon, there is no better time for a showdown than now IMO.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Atri » 08 Nov 2009 19:51

khan wrote:With Pakistan tied up on its Western Border, the Himalayas snowing up and the Military Gap between India and China showing no sign of shrinking any time soon, there is no better time for a showdown than now IMO.



True.. China has this window until 2013-2014.. After that, the chances of PRC of "punishing India :roll: " will start decreasing exponentially... Before INS Arihant and INS Vikramaditya are fully inducted and operational, China has best chance.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby asprinzl » 08 Nov 2009 21:03

If a localized battlefield nuke exchange between Chinese forces and Indian forces in the Himalayas, it would be extremely disastrous for India. Most of India's rivers originate from these mountain ranges and nuke wastes would be carried deep into Indian heartland and onwards to India's seashores.

Only way to avoid this is to increase megaton and gigaton warheads and the means to deliver them all over China with ease not because the need to destroy Chinese mega cities but to effect a change of mindset in Beijing.
Avram

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 08 Nov 2009 21:17

Chiron wrote:
True.. China has this window until 2013-2014.. After that, the chances of PRC of "punishing India :roll: " will start decreasing exponentially... Before INS Arihant and INS Vikramaditya are fully inducted and operational, China has best chance.

They have a demographic bulge with a young population which is fit for fighting until 2020. After that the ratio of older generation will increase. India has to stand guard until 2020.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 08 Nov 2009 21:46



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