India-China News and Discussion

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Stan_Savljevic
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 13 Nov 2009 04:40

If you read ToI's slant, it is batting for the US. Some of the reports definitely have an agenda. It is for GoI to use ToI's rubbish to further its goals. ToI need to be treated as "useful idiots with a US bend".

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Brando » 13 Nov 2009 09:06

A ridiculous opinion piece from some Italian Newspaper on the Dalai Lama:


http://www.lastampa.it/_web/cmstp/tmplr ... 7&sezione=

A sacrificial Dalai Lama-lamb on the frontier?

India and China discussions on border issues could be hasten by American need to find a political solution for Afghanistan, something that could squeeze the cause of the Tibetan leader who “donated” to New Delhi “his” Tawang.
BEIJING -- The Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan religious leader, will visit the Tawang Monastery in Arunachal Pradesh, a move that has reignited the never-extinguished border issue between China and India.

The bilateral border issue is divided into three parts: the western, central, and eastern parts. The central portion is the least contentious, in which bilateral talks have registered the highest level of agreement. The western and the eastern parts are very troublesome. The western part is occupied by the Chinese but claimed by the Indians; the eastern part, conversely, is occupied by the Indians while claimed by the Chinese. In theory, the two sides could swap claims—the Indians could recognize the Chinese occupied territory in the west, and the Chinese could do the same with the Indians in the east.

However, things are more complicated in reality. In the west, China holds an area of KashmirBeijing by Pakistan, something that strengthens the Pakistani claim to Kashmir and involves the generally thorny issue of Kashmir, a territory that caused decades of wars and friction between India and Pakistan. A China-India agreement in that area would weaken the Pakistani hand in the region and with India, and would betray decades of bilateral friendship. Furthermore, China-Pakistan ties are important and useful to help find a solution to the Afghani problem. Still, China might not be totally opposed to the idea of swapping recognition in order to improve bilateral ties. leased to

The issue of Arunachal Pradesh is somewhat similar. The region is historically part of Tibet, held by India after independence in 1947. It was largely occupied by advancing Chinese troops in 1962, after the defeat of the Indian army in the war that year. Yet the Chinese withdrew after the victory without occupying new territory. That proves that China has no real appetite for Arunachal Pradesh, otherwise it would have held it then. Still that episode has also deeply marked bilateral relations.

The Chinese do not take seriously the prospects of the Indian threat—they beat the Indians during one of the worst times of Chinese history, right after the huge catastrophe of the Great Leap Forward, which killed over 30 million people and left hundreds of millions starving. The Indians conversely felt bitterly stung by that defeat, which proved the reality of the Chinese threat to India and reinforced the feeling of being encircled and besieged by China in the north and Pakistan (China’s friend) in the west.

The Indian sense of siege was boosted in later years as Burma tilted over China, while the Chinese sense of superiority over India was also underscored by looking at India’s fractious domestic political, religious, and social controversies. The clashes between Hindus and Muslims, conflicts between Hindus and Christians, and the spread of radical neo-Maoist guerillas in impoverished tribal areas gave Beijing the idea that India is too fragile internally to be a real strategic competitor to China. The real issue for Beijing is not how to prevail over New Delhi but how to prevent India from falling apart.

This very knotty and sensitive border predicament is further complicated by the Dalai Lama's recognition of the Indian claim over Tawang. Of course, prima facie, this “cession” by the Dalai Lama looks like the Pakistani lease of Kashmir to China, however it is somewhat different and more delicate. First, it introduces an issue of territoriality that could have helped bringing China and the Dalai Lama togethe. For instance, Beijing and Taipei control different islands of the South China Sea yet Taipei, like Beijing, claims the whole area. In other words, the two governments have issues with each other but no difference about territorial claims in South China Sea—something that reinforces the sense of unity.

On Tawang, however, the Dalai Lama and Beijing hold different views—and that worsens the Tibet issue. Moreover, it seems to some Chinese that some Indians are trying to play the Dalai Lama card against Beijing, and the Dalai Lama's cession of Tawang to New Delhi reinforces the Dalai Lama's claim of political power over all of Tibet. It is just like the Chinese holding a portion Kashmir, which reinforces the Pakistani claim over all of Kashmir, including the part controlled by India.

If the geography of the issue is then so intricate, the real redefinition of the China-India border requires broad yet separate solutions: one on Kashmir between China and India that includes Pakistan, and another on Arunachal Pradesh between China and India that includes Tibet. In this puzzle, the weak element is that Tibet is not an independent state like Pakistan. Thus, at least in theory, everybody would like to see a solution on the Kashmir issue, which could also help create a solution in Afghanistan and stabilize Pakistan—but the same would be not true in Arunachal Pradesh.

On what grounds does the Dalai Lama recognize India's sovereignty over Tawang? Is the Dalai Lama the recognized political ruler of Tibet? Is Tibet his to give in whole or in part to India or anybody else? The answers to these questions are, to say the least, highly controversial. Therefore, the Dalai Lama's role in Tawang can’t be as politically strong as Pakistan's role in Kashmir, and this is true also for the Indians, who never disputed the Chinese sovereignty over Tibet, and thus can’t use politically the Dalai Lama's concession of Tawang to India.

Certainly, the Dalai Lama's involvement in the China-India border issue could enhance his political profile by placing him in the middle of possibly the most sensitive territorial issue in the world—one between the two global demographic superpowers.

Then the politically incorrect topic—the one thing that is hard to say because of the Dalai Lama's international stature—is that the Dalai Lama's involvement in Arunachal Pradesh further confuses the Indian border issue with China; and India knows that solving the border issue (something it is very keen on doing) also means further undermining the Dalai Lama's political aspirations in Tibet.

Then, while in the short term the Dalai Lama's involvement may help India’s hand, in the long term, for a solution to the border issue, the Dalai Lama will have to be removed from this political equation. The same is even truer for the Dalai Lama. For him, getting in the middle of this thorny issue may earn him some short-term gains. In the medium- and long-terms, however, it weakens his positions with China, India, and the international community, as nobody will seriously support his political claim and thus his cession of Tawang or part of Tibet.

Then, for China, the political position best fitting its interests is the one it appears to be taking now after some hesitation: to downplay the role of the Dalai Lama in India and brush aside his moves as irrelevant and unimportant in order to put down his political value in the China-India border bargaining. This bargaining would take years in normal times, but the present American necessity to find a quick political solution in Afghanistan—involving also Pakistan, India, and China—could press all relevant parties to get their act together on many problems, including the border disputes.

In the next visit to Beijing of the U.S. President Barack Obama he will talk to the Chinese of their possible involvement in Afghanistan, and both parties will be fully aware that this actually involves also the issue of Pakistan, India, Kashmir and thus the whole China-Indian frontier.

Meanwhile this whole game, in the end, might further harm the Dalai Lama’s cause so that—short of an unlikely break of hostility between China and India—he could be sooner or later squeezed and sacrificed on the altar of a grand Asian reconciliation starting from Afghanistan.



A PRC sponsored hit piece against the Dalai Lama and India if ever there was one! Absolutely ridiculous!!

This is why one shouldn't go putting much faith in international news media. In reality they really aren't much better Indian media, they just pretend to be more objective!

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby vishal » 13 Nov 2009 09:09

China gave Pakistan enough enriched uranium to make 2 atomic bombs

Extract: In 1982, a Pakistani military C-130 left the western Chinese city of Urumqi with a highly unusual cargo: enough weapons-grade uranium for two atomic bombs, according to accounts written by the father of Pakistan's nuclear weapons program, Abdul Qadeer Khan, and provided to The Washington Post.

The uranium transfer in five stainless-steel boxes was part of a broad-ranging, secret nuclear deal approved years earlier by Mao Zedong and Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto that culminated in an exceptional, deliberate act of proliferation by a nuclear power, according to the accounts by Khan, who is under house arrest in Pakistan.

U.S. officials say they have known about the transfer for decades and once privately confronted the Chinese -- who denied it -- but have never raised the issue in public or sought to impose direct sanctions on China for it.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby santoshriyer » 13 Nov 2009 09:43

The India-based Hindustan Times newspaper reported Thursday that India is quietly enhancing its defenses along the Chinese border in southern Tibet, a disputed region India calls Arunachal Pradesh.
The Indian Army will deploy its new 15,000-strong 56 Division in the region within four weeks, the paper quoted a senior defense official as saying.
It has also put out a Request for Information (RFI) to acquire 300 lightweight tanks that can be deployed in the Northeast, Jammu and Kashmir, according to the report.
A second division will be deployed in the area in the next 12- 18 months, the official added.
The army's RFI said the light tanks should be capable of destroying bunkers and soft-skin vehicles up to 3,000 meters away and should have armor-piercing anti-tank guided missiles and anti-aircraft machine guns.
The RFI also stipulates these tanks should "have protection against nuclear, chemical and biological warfare," the newspaper said.
Fu Xiaoqiang, an expert on South Asian studies at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Studies, told the Global Times, "As has been repeatedly discussed in the Indian media, the beefing-up of military power in southern Tibet is a strategy of India to fix its control, in addition to other motives, such as encouraging the visit of the Dalai Lama and armament adjustment."
"But I don't think the rivalry of two rising powers in Asia will do any good to either side," Fu added.
"It is a very ruthless move because it is against the trust treaty reached by the two countries," said Zhao Gancheng, director at the South Asia Research Division of the Shanghai International Affairs Research Institute.
"India officials have tried to convince us that the border is peaceful. But now the fact betrays the words," he added.
The escalating tension has drawn the attention of other countries, such as the UK.
An article in The Times Thursday went a step further, saying that a "cold war" is "brewing … between China and India," citing India's plan to reopen a Cold War outpost on the Maldives abandoned by the British Royal Air Force decades ago.
"It is natural that the UK is concerned about India, which is its former colony," Fu said. "It is like sitting on top of the mountain to watch the tigers fight."


http://world.globaltimes.cn/asia-pacific/2009-11/484853.html

Yes, Chances of broder fighting is very high right now as ShyamD said.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Muppalla » 13 Nov 2009 09:47

Stan_Savljevic wrote:If you read ToI's slant, it is batting for the US. Some of the reports definitely have an agenda. It is for GoI to use ToI's rubbish to further its goals. ToI need to be treated as "useful idiots with a US bend".


Else try them for treason. See every other news points to troop deployment. TOI is only paper that carried such an irresponsible news item. Why don't learn to shut up :evil:

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Jarita » 13 Nov 2009 09:51

Had a discussion with someone intimately familiar with US policy. He validated the point about PRC getting US support from 50's onwards and more so in the 70's to balance out both Indian and Russia.
Made me realize that it is truly remarkable that we as a country are where we are despite the odds stacked against us

- Partition
-11% literacy and destitute in 47
- World powers determined to break us up
- Several netas who are puppets of foreigns govts
- Encirclement by enemies

It has to be the slog of our masses and soldiers and a few visionary leaders that has enabled us to come where we are. Amazing

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 13 Nov 2009 10:05

Brando wrote:A ridiculous opinion piece from some Italian Newspaper on the Dalai Lama:

A PRC sponsored hit piece against the Dalai Lama and India if ever there was one! Absolutely ridiculous!!

This is why one shouldn't go putting much faith in international news media. In reality they really aren't much better Indian media, they just pretend to be more objective!

Revealing article. Western thought process and how they look at china.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Brando » 13 Nov 2009 10:17

Jarita wrote:It has to be the slog of our masses and soldiers and a few visionary leaders that has enabled us to come where we are. Amazing


Actually it is these very problems and the hurdles they posed that helped India become what it is today. The Hindu-Muslim riots, the Naxallite problem should also be seen in this context as hurdles to overcome. These kinds of problems are not uncommon in a developing country.

The stance of the Indian military establishment vis-a-vis the Chinese is a direct product of the 1962 debacle. Inspite of the politicans the IA has had to prepare for the worst. I dont think we should be rushing to recognize politicians for their "contributions" because as usual, our leaders are the weakest link.

The US supported India during the 1962 crisis as best as they could. It was the inability of Nehru and Kennedy to come to solidify their relations after the Cuban Missile crisis that led to the Soviets stepping in with military aid and hardware. From 47 to 62 Nehru let the powerful British Indian Army's go to pieces against the Chinese. The lesson is that we should make sure high minded ideals never cloud us for the stark reality of the situation. A nation that can't defend itself is not fit to survive.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Brando » 13 Nov 2009 11:20

Acharya wrote:
Brando wrote:A ridiculous opinion piece from some Italian Newspaper on the Dalai Lama:

A PRC sponsored hit piece against the Dalai Lama and India if ever there was one! Absolutely ridiculous!!

This is why one shouldn't go putting much faith in international news media. In reality they really aren't much better Indian media, they just pretend to be more objective!

Revealing article. Western thought process and how they look at china.


What I doubt is if it really is "Western" in the first place and not some PRC media campaign.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby santoshriyer » 13 Nov 2009 12:00

If as per what ShyamD Ji said is true. The chances for border conflict between Indian and chinese SF will be high after Obama visit to china is over.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby anuj » 13 Nov 2009 12:06

Brando wrote:A ridiculous opinion piece from some Italian Newspaper on the Dalai Lama

Hehe, there has always been persistent anti-india or anti-hindu(to_be_exact) wave in italy as far as i know.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 13 Nov 2009 13:06

That "piece" is a ridiculous piece of trash.

It doesn't reveal anything apart from the fact that the chinese waste a lot of money to peddle propaganda.

I don't see why it should be posted in full over here and its nonsensical lies highlighted.

There is a hardly a need to refute anything and everything that is being peddled out there.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby rsingh » 13 Nov 2009 13:15

Italy, Norway, Denmark,Sweden, Chili, Argentina, New zaeland, Poland and Mexico...................these are countries have inferiority complex. They are counted or listened to nowhere. It is as if they do not exist on earth. They do not have any political or economical clout. If one day these countries are taken away bu aliens............no body would notice. I there has to be an organization of "ignored countries"..........which will bring such countries to the attention of world from time to time. I was amazed when I saw Italian tourist passing them selves as sophisticated tourist (without mulla) in Delhi recently by not drinking "any Indian bottled water"..............when 80% of Rome is worse then Delhi. :rotfl: Napoli can take a lesson or two from Kanpur on how to keep city clean of pen stealing thugs.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Arihant » 13 Nov 2009 18:04

Cross-posted from the India-Australia thread...

I understand from Australian contacts that their PM is often referred to as the "Manchurian candidate" - quite literally. The man is fluent in Mandarin, and has a Chinese son-in-law - but neither of these are crimes, and probably help establish Australia's multi-cultural credentials. But the man is slavish in his kowtowing to the Chinese leadership ( there is anecdotal evidence that his Mandarin speeches welcoming visiting, minor, Chinese functionaries, border on genuflection). He has reported, as is legally required, all of his China trips in his decade-plus as an Australian MP, funded by companies with variations of the "Australia-China Export-Import Corp" name - but no one really knows why he went or what he did there. More recently, his own Defence minster was put under covert surveillance by his own Defence establishment for his far-too-close ties with a Chinese businesswoman with strong PLA and CCP ties - the story broke, heads rolled, and it looked like he might survive, but the Aussie Defence establishment got him on an entirely dfferent count (unreported gitfs) and he had to resign.

So the Australian PM is in India shamelessly repeating his position that he will not sell uranium to India. And blatantly stating that he could not guarantee that more attacks would not happen on Indian students. And quite unable to explain why attacks only involve Indian students, and not, say, the Chinese....

Methinks the land down under is well on its way to becoming a client state of the Middle Kingdom...

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Prasanth » 13 Nov 2009 18:15

rsingh wrote:when 80% of Rome is worse then Delhi. :rotfl: Napoli can take a lesson or two from Kanpur on how to keep city clean of pen stealing thugs.


I don't mean to offend you, but it is precisely this kind of statement that make us Indians look foolish! :-?
I have been to Rome btw.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby AnimeshP » 13 Nov 2009 20:27

Brando wrote:A ridiculous opinion piece from some Italian Newspaper on the Dalai Lama:

A PRC sponsored hit piece against the Dalai Lama and India if ever there was one! Absolutely ridiculous!!

This is why one shouldn't go putting much faith in international news media. In reality they really aren't much better Indian media, they just pretend to be more objective!


Well ... if you look at the credentials of the author, this article doesn't seem all that surprising ..

Francesco Sisci
Director of the Institute of Italian Culture in Beijing

Articles by Francesco Sisci
A new world under one Heaven
Beijing seizes the initiative
Change in the face of foreign devils
China's revolution for everyone and no one
China, please invade North Korea
Chinese troops offer an Afghan solution
Is China headed for a social 'red alert'?


Francesco Sisci

Read some of the articles listed on that page and you will understand how this one came about ...

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 13 Nov 2009 21:13

Yes, well that is indeed taken care of.
The chap should rather stick to exchanging pasta recipes for dimsum with his hosts.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suppiah » 13 Nov 2009 21:24



Let us not rush to judgment...let us wait for a rebuttal by Hindu/Varadarajan/Yechuri/Karat or Raja...unless they decide to black it out..

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suppiah » 13 Nov 2009 21:26

Francesco Sisci
Director of the Institute of Italian Culture in Beijing



From that link..

Francesco Sisci is the Asia Editor of La Stampa.

My Italian is quite bad..does La Stampa mean 'the rubber stamp'?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby AnimeshP » 13 Nov 2009 21:28

Suppiah wrote:
Francesco Sisci
Director of the Institute of Italian Culture in Beijing



From that link..

Francesco Sisci is the Asia Editor of La Stampa.

My Italian is quite bad..does La Stampa mean 'the rubber stamp'?


No it means "The Press"

source

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suppiah » 13 Nov 2009 21:29

sorry...that was supposed to be a joke..

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby AnimeshP » 13 Nov 2009 21:31

Suppiah wrote:sorry...that was supposed to be a joke..


Oops ... my bad ... :oops:
Although as per wiki ... the newspaper's Political alignment is Social liberalism

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 13 Nov 2009 21:35

no problem

social liberalism -> social market ( a.ka. deng)
hence the proclivities.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Jarita » 14 Nov 2009 00:02

Would it possible to summarize the points of covergence btwn PRC and US? I'am sure we can infer all of them by going through the threads but I think it is key to summarize the points of convergance
I can think of the following
- China as a counter to India and Russia
- Current and Future growth of evangelical xtianity
- Market for US goods and services - homogeniety driven by the cultural revolution aids this. Heterogeneity would hurt it
- Manufacturing hub for cheap goods and services

Please add additional points. A long term strategy has to look at these equations

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 14 Nov 2009 00:13

We have the US-PRC relationship thread for that. Please carry the discussion there.

Thanks, ramana

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby rsingh » 14 Nov 2009 02:31

I don't mean to offend you, but it is precisely this kind of statement that make us Indians look foolish! :-?
I have been to Rome btw.


Not offended at all. It is just that I have seen Rome as Romans do...........not as tourists. In New Delhi I have not seen clothlines hanging across street , middle aged ladies fighting it out in street about a bra that was stolen from clothline. I am yet to hear news about young kids steeling all four wheels of you car and then trying to sell you the wheels back to you ............to help you. and things like that. When you visit Rome, you see the 20 % historical part..........you go to your hotel back and satisfy your self that money was well spent. You came with expectation and historical Rome is better then what thought it would be. Just take local bus ride to real city. Actually it is not only about Rome. One goes to London and see that old rusty bridge on dirty river................one say WTF. One of the main preoccupation of Japanese embassy in Paris is to arrange for emergency exit for Japanese tourist who became sick after seeing the sightseen in Paris. They have such high expectation................and all they see is a rusty old tower and wide boulward. Go to see Monalisa and first thing come to your mind is "WTF". My Mantra is......if I like......I like it really. I do not like anything because everybody else seems to like it. In India there is so much hype about western cities.......no body writes about how poor man lives in these cities. On other hand everybody shows how poor people live in India.........no body talks about middle class.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 14 Nov 2009 04:16

PM hosts Advani, Chinese on menu - Bid for consensus before House sitting

New Delhi, Nov. 13: The Prime Minister invited L.K. Advani, Sushma Swaraj and Arun Jaitley to lunch on November 7, a day ahead of the Dalai Lama’s visit to Arunachal Pradesh, to try and evolve a political consensus over the Centre’s China policy.
..
...
Singh wanted to take the main Opposition party on board on the government’s China policy before Parliament reconvened on November 19, the sources said. They added that the government was concerned at the BJP’s reaction to the “largely ramped up” media reports that made it appear as though China was about to launch a major offensive against India.
...
...
The Prime Minister also briefed the BJP leaders on the Dalai Lama’s Arunachal visit that was preceded by China’s objections that the state was a “disputed” territory and the Tibetan leader was a “dissident and a renegade”.

Sources said the government’s highest rungs were divided on giving the monk the go-ahead. At a cabinet committee on security (CCS) meeting, a minister and a top official advised against “provoking” China. They mentioned how US President Barack Obama had denied the monk an audience in October. :roll:

Another CCS member, however, argued that India could not behave like a “bad host” with a “revered” guest and that the Dalai Lama was travelling as a Buddhist leader and not as a political activist. He convinced most of the other members, including the Prime Minister.

The Congress projected its Arunachal election victory as a “triumph of nationalism” and sources said that any suggestion that the Dalai Lama’s trip might be “hazardous” to India’s global interests may have betrayed the “spirit” of the mandate.


How can MKN and SMK compare Obama's lack of spine in meeting Dalai Lama to India? US is at the mercy of China economically and doesn't want to piss it off. And the US has no bone in the Tibet dispute.

For India, China is protesting against the visit to Arunachal Pradesh and claiming it as its own. Our circumstances are different. It is an issue of territoral integrity of India. If the Dalai Lama was told to cancel the visit, it would have meant GoI tacitly agreeing that ArP is a disputed area and know-towing to the chinese demands. And given the arrogant tone of the Chinese during the entire time, I find it strange that the NSA and EAM were advocating placating the Chinese.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby harbans » 14 Nov 2009 04:39

Our political leadership is what is called 'strategically naive'. China claiming ArP while every citizen firmly roots for India, refusing them to carry national flags while banning the media is naive at best. After SeS MMS wanted to show some spine and if he'd buckled here the Congress would have looked like a bunch of jokers. But the interesting part is what motivates the leadership. Not values, not what is the correct, righteous thing to do. But fear of the electorate more than the Chinese. Thats what scares me.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby V_Raman » 14 Nov 2009 05:01

the fear of the electorate is the main thing that will keep the leadership sane. if the mood of the electorate is react, then they will. makkal therpe magesan theerpu!

but as some leader once said, sometimes i would rather let the electorate down that let the country down. i dont know if our leadership is there yet...

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 14 Nov 2009 08:29

Brando,

From e-mail



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 221593.cms


THE TIMES OF INDIA, NOVEMBER 12, 2009

Make The Visit Count

G PARTHASARATHY

With public attention focused on reports of a possible repeat of the 26/11 terrorist strike and China’s melodramatics on the Dalai Lama’s visit to Tawang, one should not forget that – given the importance of Washington’s relations with Beijing and Islamabad – the future course of events in our neighbourhood will be significantly influenced by understandings reached during Manmohan Singh’s November 24 state visit to Washington.

The Obama administration is now finding that its relations with our neighbours are going to be more complicated than it earlier imagined. Hectored by Pakistani officials about alleged shortcomings in US policies, despite the unprecedented level of American military and economic assistance to Pakistan, an irate Hillary Clinton recently accused Islamabad of sheltering Osama bin Laden. She also said: “If we are going to have a mature partnership...there are issues that not just the United States, but others have with your government and your military security establishment” – a blunt indictment of Pakistan-sponsored terrorism in Afghanistan and India.

Washington is also finding that, as its economic and military clout grows, China is becoming increasingly assertive and determined to exclude the US from the emerging security and economic architecture of Asia and the Asia-Pacific region. China now calls for US withdrawal from Afghanistan, seeks to undermine the role of the dollar in determining global oil prices and is using its vast foreign exchange reserves and possession of around $800 billion in US Treasury bonds to leverage its global economic ambitions.

More important, China is showing growing aggressiveness to enforce its claims that its territorial waters encompass three million square kilometres out of a total area of 3.5 million square km in the South China Sea. It has disputes on its maritime frontiers with North and South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, the Philippines , Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei. It is becoming increasingly aggressive in enforcing its authority in disputed areas it claims are within its territorial waters. Barack Obama’s decision to avoid a customary meeting with the Dalai Lama, for fear of offending Beijing, has only strengthened the belief that with the US in retreat, China will be more assertive in its dealings with neighbours, including India.

American strategic analyst Ashley Tellis, who played a key role in shaping the Bush administration’s policies towards India, has lucidly spelt out how the Obama administration should understand India’s policies. Alluding to Indian concerns about calls for a US-China “condominium” to set the global agenda, he notes that India would like the US to “manage its relations with China in such a way that precludes both collusion and confrontation , between Washington and Beijing” . He states that India expects Washington to work to “preserve a favourable balance of power” in Asia, enabling India “to concentrate on economic development, without any distracting security competition”. :eek:

Cautioning Obama against any intrusive attempt to meddle in Kashmir, Tellis notes that “India desires greater American support in confronting the terror emanating from Pakistan” . While Clinton made it clear in Pakistan that Washington has no intention to meddle in Kashmir, Manmohan Singh would no doubt tell the White House that, following “back channel” negotiations, India and Pakistan had reached a broad agreement on the framework for a settlement on J&K in 2007. This recognised that borders could not be changed, but that free movement of people, goods, services and investments across the Line of Control would make them “irrelevant” . It is for Pakistan, seeking to turn the clock back, to honour and abide by understandings reached between 2005 and 2007.

The India-US nuclear deal has cleared the way for nuclear collaboration with France, Russia and the US and opened the door for meeting India’s crucial needs concerning uranium ore. But American restrictions and delays on transfer of hi-tech items remain and need addressing. Signing of the “End Use Monitoring Agreement” and “Technical Safeguards Agreement” during Clinton’s visit to India cleared the way for expanding cooperation in defence and space. It would be useful if Singh’s “Washington yatra” could set the stage for some imaginative India-US ventures in space.

Moreover, while issues like nuclear non-proliferation , climate change and clean energy will come up for discussion, rural India will benefit from Singh’s visit only if high-sounding bilateral agreements on agriculture are seen to lead to greater agricultural productivity and better water management in India. Hopefully, HRD minister Kapil Sibal’s initiatives will also see early progress in cooperation with the US in university education.

Singh is more than familiar with power equations in Washington and the frustration there with Pakistan’s policy of running with the Taliban hare while hunting with the American hound. The Americans have been extremely forthcoming after 26/11 in sharing intelligence and assisting terror-related investigations in India. It is crucial to enhance such cooperation in dealing with terrorist violence that both Indian and US citizens could well face again in the near future. With Pakistan’s state structure virtually imploding, India and the US need to remain in close touch, especially by complementing their efforts to restore peace and stability in Afghanistan.

The writer is a former high commissioner [ambassador] to Pakistan.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 14 Nov 2009 08:54

PRC is humiliating obama even before he lands in beijing and all this impotent satrap can do is grin and bear it :-

- the news about the uranium supply to Pak was probably leaked by the PRC govt itself as a open
challenge and 'dare' to obama as in "we did this, we admit it, kuch bhi ukhar nahi paoge" (as in you wont be able to uproot a single root here)

- chinese foreign ministry junior spokesman said "He is a black president, he surely understands the
contribution of abraham lincoln to end slavery. both countries must respect each other's core concerns, and tibet is a core area of concern for us"

right from bush 2.0's first stint in office, successive american presidents and warlords have gone as
supplicants bearing tribute to beijing and come back with a pat on the back and advice on what to
do next. bush 2.0 must have visited beijing atleast 5 times in his sad little reign.

the messiah surely talks a good game and has better tailored robes, but the way in which gotus
is treated shows where the true levers of power lie. the periodic pained expressions indicate the
beautiful concubine has her hand in gotus's pants and squeezes pretty hard on a whim.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 14 Nov 2009 09:01

rsingh wrote:

Not offended at all. It is just that I have seen Rome as Romans do...........not as tourists. In New Delhi I have not seen clothlines hanging across street , middle aged ladies fighting it out in street about a bra that was stolen from clothline. I am yet to hear news about young kids steeling all four wheels of you car and then trying to sell you the wheels back to you ............to help you. and things like that. When you visit Rome, you see the 20 % historical part..........you go to your hotel back and satisfy your self that money was well spent. You came with expectation and historical Rome is better then what thought it would be. Just take local bus ride to real city. Actually it is not only about Rome. One goes to London and see that old rusty bridge on dirty river................one say WTF. One of the main preoccupation of Japanese embassy in Paris is to arrange for emergency exit for Japanese tourist who became sick after seeing the sightseen in Paris. They have such high expectation................and all they see is a rusty old tower and wide boulward. Go to see Monalisa and first thing come to your mind is "WTF". My Mantra is......if I like......I like it really. I do not like anything because everybody else seems to like it. In India there is so much hype about western cities.......no body writes about how poor man lives in these cities. On other hand everybody shows how poor people live in India.........no body talks about middle class.

i wanted to say it. When you live in the city you know all the things about it which tourist do not even can imagine.

Welcome to the world of ImAGE making. The western controlled media has created a fabulous image of the cities and culture and overhyped it.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 14 Nov 2009 10:08

indeed. one needs to live in khan too for a few yrs and roam the back alleys of gritty areas to understand what is the DAILY REALITY for the bottom 30%.

the first time I was driving my father on I-95 near the george washington bridge in NYC (bronx), lined
by red bricky tenement towers, he was very anxious....said on TV all he saw in movies were such buildings with police banging in the front door, and druggies/crime types going out via the window and fire escape. had to explain to him most people there are decent enough, just caught the wrong
end of the stick in life...and kept there by the moneyed elites elsewhere in the same city.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 14 Nov 2009 11:39

The actual state of democracy in any society can be gauged by the level to which encroachment by the poor is allowed. India's greatest strength even though grating to the "middle class" is the fact that a poor wretch can shit in the middle of Rajpath. yes this to some will seem like an apologia for lawlessness, and if it does, consider it to be a metaphor and forgive the usage. it is only when the Indian people become truly prosperous will we stop seeing urban slums and squalor. unlike china etc where they simply have to "leave" the city in the evening once their workday is done.

In India its in your face. lest we forget.And this is precisely why the level of crime and urban violence in India is not as high as it could be, the statistics be damned. The problems of democracy in India comes from the vestige of feudalism which manifests itself in caste violence , rural oppression, 'rishwat or sifarish' etc. But grass roots democracy aka panchayati raj is slowly turning the tide there as well.


The way forward for India is more democracy not less. A great churning is happening, one that is unprecedented in history. All the warts will work themselves out. Meghnad Desai said- "maybe India will become just a great democracy while china a great power".

Great democracy it is. Power comes and goes.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Masaru » 14 Nov 2009 12:20

Cross posting from US PRC relationship & India thread


Apologies if already posted and discussed, seems like some more details have emerged from the old story.
A nuclear power's act of proliferation

In 1982, a Pakistani military C-130 left the western Chinese city of Urumqi with a highly unusual cargo: enough weapons-grade uranium for two atomic bombs.The uranium transfer in five stainless-steel boxes was part of a broad-ranging, secret nuclear deal approved years earlier by Mao Zedong and Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto that culminated in an exceptional, deliberate act of proliferation by a nuclear power, according to the accounts by Khan, who is under house arrest in Pakistan.

According to Khan, the uranium cargo came with a blueprint for a simple weapon that China had already tested, supplying a virtual do-it-yourself kit that significantly speeded Pakistan's bomb effort.
"Upon my personal request, the Chinese Minister . . . had gifted us 50 kg [kilograms] of weapon-grade enriched uranium, enough for two weapons," Khan wrote in a previously undisclosed 11-page narrative of the Pakistani bomb program that he prepared after his January 2004 detention for unauthorized nuclear commerce."The Chinese gave us drawings of the nuclear weapon, gave us kg50 enriched uranium," he said in a separate account sent to his wife several months earlier.

"The speed of our work and our achievements surprised our worst enemies and adversaries and the West stood helplessly by to see a Third World nation, unable even to produce bicycle chains or sewing needles, mastering the most advanced nuclear technology in the shortest possible span of time," Khan boasts in the 11-page narrative he wrote for Pakistani intelligence officials about his dealings with foreigners while head of a key nuclear research laboratory.{Porki boast about backwardness, skulduggery and plain stealing is amazing}

Over several days, Khan said, he briefed three top Chinese nuclear weapons officials -- Liu Wei, Li Jue and Jiang Shengjie -- on how the European-designed centrifuges could swiftly aid China's lagging uranium-enrichment program. China's Foreign Ministry did not respond to questions about the officials' roles."Chinese experts started coming regularly to learn the whole technology" from Pakistan, Khan states, staying in a guest house built for them at his centrifuge research center. Pakistani experts were dispatched to Hanzhong in central China, where they helped "put up a centrifuge plant," Khan said in an account he gave to his wife after coming under government pressure. "We sent 135 C-130 plane loads of machines, inverters, valves, flow meters, pressure gauges," he wrote. "Our teams stayed there for weeks to help and their teams stayed here for weeks at a time."


In return, China sent Pakistan 15 tons of uranium hexafluoride (UF6), a feedstock for Pakistan's centrifuges that Khan's colleagues were having difficulty producing on their own. Khan said the gas enabled the laboratory to begin producing bomb-grade uranium in 1982. Chinese scientists helped the Pakistanis solve other nuclear weapons challenges, but as their competence rose, so did the fear of top Pakistani officials that Israel or India might preemptively strike key nuclear sites.
{Why did this not happen? This could have saved a lot of trouble for the future, possibly all of Punjab, J&K, Kargil, Mumbai bleeding. As usual babus and netas twiddling thumbs?}

Mohammed Zia ul-Haq, the nation's military ruler, "was worried," Khan said, and so he and a Pakistani general who helped oversee the nation's nuclear laboratories were dispatched to Beijing with a request in mid-1982 to borrow enough bomb-grade uranium for a few weapons. After winning Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping's approval, Khan, the general and two others flew aboard a Pakistani C-130 to Urumqi. Khan says they enjoyed barbecued lamb while waiting for the Chinese military to pack the small uranium bricks into lead-lined boxes, 10 single-kilogram ingots to a box, for the flight to Islamabad, Pakistan's capital. According to Khan's account, however, Pakistan's nuclear scientists kept the Chinese material in storage until 1985, by which time the Pakistanis had made a few bombs with their own uranium. Khan said he got Zia's approval to ask the Chinese whether they wanted their high-enriched uranium back. After a few days, they responded "that the HEU loaned earlier was now to be considered as a gift . . . in gratitude" for Pakistani help.



And the usual denials and hand wringing that follows after the horse has been let out of the barn! Instead of sanctions and embargoes all this gets conveniently pushed under the carpet for the sake of diplomatic nicety and maintaining the cold war balance? On the other hand NSG, NPT etc. etc. came out of the Smiling Buddha?

Meanwhile, Chinese Premier Zhao Ziyang promised at a White House dinner in January 1984: "We do not engage in nuclear proliferation ourselves, nor do we help other countries develop nuclear weapons." A nearly identical statement was made by China in a major summary of its nonproliferation policies in 2003 and on many occasions in between.

Hans M. Kristensen, director of the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists, said that except for the instance described by Khan, "we are not aware of cases where a nuclear weapon state has transferred HEU to a non-nuclear country for military use." McGoldrick also said he is aware of "nothing like it" in the history of nuclear weapons proliferation. But he said nothing has ever been said publicly because "this is diplomacy; you don't do that sort of thing . . . if you want them to change their behavior."


Regardless one has to give due credit to the porkis for their skill in begging and blackmail which they employ effectively to play US and PRC against each other. Where are the GoI strategic(!) planners in all this. Porkis are continuing this game till today and will become even worrisome as PRC transforms into a stronger power.

A declining US will do whatever it can to keep porkis in their orbit and a rising PRC will use increasingly larger bait (J-10 etc) to lure them to its camp to use as a spoilsport w.r.t. India and get access to CAR. The loser in this game is pretty obvious.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Juggi G » 14 Nov 2009 16:11


Lalmohan
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 14 Nov 2009 16:23

D Roy wrote:In India its in your face. lest we forget.


unfortunately many Indians chose to ignore it and get upset when foreigners (who cannot ignore it because its in their face) point it out, or wonder why we dont notice it.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 14 Nov 2009 16:32

the fact that it bothers us, shows there is hope. it shows that we have not got sensitized to it.

Ultimately the more fortunate have to help the less fortunate. the state system in India is unable to accomplish that at the desired pace through simply taxing the rich. However thousands are directly helping people on the ground. many more such thousands are required but not of the "radical" variety.


On a different note, when a westerner points it out, it irritates me as well. The west should hang its head in shame for the next 200 years before they come to lecture anybody else on the state of affairs in their country.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Hari Seldon » 14 Nov 2009 16:40

unfortunately many Indians chose to ignore it and get upset when foreigners (who cannot ignore it because its in their face) point it out, or wonder why we dont notice it.


Quaint. Its not as if getting upset is a crime.

The Yindians getting upset about it aren't, as a result of their upsets, clamoring for physical barriers to internal migration and Indian constitutional freedoms (except in J&K of course, where outsiders can't settle despite being Indians).

Nobody is clamoring for beautification projects that call for demolition of homes and livelihoods without due process and rehabilitation, IMHO.

And nobody is calling for mass-slaughter or death through engineered famines or forced death marches or the like.

Ultimately it may be a generation or more before incomes rise sufficiently to eradicate the worst of poverty in our country.

Anyway, its only now Yindians are getting middle classy enough to notice the squalor. Previously the squalor was omnipresent. Now less so, and is hence actually noticeable. Perhaps.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 14 Nov 2009 16:51

Nobody is clamoring for beautification projects that call for demolition of homes and livelihoods without due process and rehabilitation, IMHO.

And nobody is calling for mass-slaughter or death through engineered famines or forced death marches or the like.


which by the way has happened in each of those countries that preach to India today.

Its all very nice to have a good clean country, when you send off your poor to die in world wars, pack of your criminals to colonies for lebensraum and eradicate native populations through the use of small pox. besides proletarizing the populations of those countries to build edifices at Trafalgar square.

Or since this is the "china" thread, execute them in the head through death squads and in mass labour camps used to make shiny little "I love communism" cuff-lings.


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