India-China News and Discussion

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RoyG
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RoyG » 14 Nov 2009 23:57

India a master and Tibet is its disciple: Dalai Lama

November 14, 2009 23:14 IST

On the last day of his week-long stay in Arunachal Pradesh, Tibetan spiritual leader Dalai Lama [ Images ] underlined the need for spiritual development for peaceful co-existence of different groups of people for establishing a developed and prosperous state.

The spiritual leader said he was active in spreading India's [ Images ] message of non-violence and religious harmony throughout the world.

"I am the messenger of India's ancient thoughts world over," Dalai Lama told an assembly of intellectuals in Itanagar on Saturday.

He said democracy was deep rooted in India because the people had deep respect for the two precious ideals. Even non-believer like 'Charvak' was respected and given the high status of a sage in ancient India.

The Tibet [ Images ]an monk said he considered India as a master and Tibet its disciple as great scholars like Nagarjuna [ Images ] went from Nalanda to Tibet to preach Buddhism in the eighth century.
He said millions of people had lost their lives in violence and economy of many a country got ruined due to conflicts in the 20th century. "Let the 21th century be a century of tolerance and dialogue."

The Dalai Lama will leave for New Delhi [ Images ] on Sunday.

Anurag Kashyap in Itanagar

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/nov/ ... i-lama.htm

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Karan Dixit » 15 Nov 2009 07:14

BEIJING, Nov. 14 (UPI) -- China is preparing for U.S. President Barack Obama's visit by arresting dozens of political dissidents and reform advocates, human rights activists say.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2009/11/ ... 258228903/

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Prasanth » 15 Nov 2009 08:51

rsingh wrote:
I don't mean to offend you, but it is precisely this kind of statement that make us Indians look foolish! :-?
I have been to Rome btw.


Not offended at all. It is just that I have seen Rome as Romans do...........not as tourists. In New Delhi I have not seen clothlines hanging across street , middle aged ladies fighting it out in street about a bra that was stolen from clothline. I am yet to hear news about young kids steeling all four wheels of you car and then trying to sell you the wheels back to you ............to help you. and things like that. When you visit Rome, you see the 20 % historical part..........you go to your hotel back and satisfy your self that money was well spent. You came with expectation and historical Rome is better then what thought it would be. Just take local bus ride to real city. Actually it is not only about Rome. One goes to London and see that old rusty bridge on dirty river................one say WTF. One of the main preoccupation of Japanese embassy in Paris is to arrange for emergency exit for Japanese tourist who became sick after seeing the sightseen in Paris. They have such high expectation................and all they see is a rusty old tower and wide boulward. Go to see Monalisa and first thing come to your mind is "WTF". My Mantra is......if I like......I like it really. I do not like anything because everybody else seems to like it. In India there is so much hype about western cities.......no body writes about how poor man lives in these cities. On other hand everybody shows how poor people live in India.........no body talks about middle class.


Well, of course there are people in Rome living on the lower fringes, as does anywhere on earth. Nobody told you Rome was a fantasy land where everybody is dandy and happy, dancing to Bollywood tunes. But comparing their living standards to Indian living standards is absurd. Dissapointment over an expectation does not equate to that country being worse than India. You want to know worse crimes in Delhi due to poverty and lawlessness? Have you seen gazellion of kids swarming you for money when they should be schooling in Rome? Have you seen lil girls serving you chai when they should be schooling in Rome? Do you smell shit everywhere you go once you step out of that nice hotel? Or when you step out of the plane, the immigration officer asking you for a paisa or two? I have personally seen police brutality in Delhi, beating up someone like shit just because they did a petty crime. And don't even talk about pick pockets in Delhi.
Last edited by Prasanth on 15 Nov 2009 09:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Prasanth » 15 Nov 2009 08:57

D Roy wrote:The actual state of democracy in any society can be gauged by the level to which encroachment by the poor is allowed. India's greatest strength even though grating to the "middle class" is the fact that a poor wretch can shit in the middle of Rajpath. yes this to some will seem like an apologia for lawlessness, and if it does, consider it to be a metaphor and forgive the usage. it is only when the Indian people become truly prosperous will we stop seeing urban slums and squalor. unlike china etc where they simply have to "leave" the city in the evening once their workday is done.

In India its in your face. lest we forget.And this is precisely why the level of crime and urban violence in India is not as high as it could be, the statistics be damned. The problems of democracy in India comes from the vestige of feudalism which manifests itself in caste violence , rural oppression, 'rishwat or sifarish' etc. But grass roots democracy aka panchayati raj is slowly turning the tide there as well.


The way forward for India is more democracy not less. A great churning is happening, one that is unprecedented in history. All the warts will work themselves out. Meghnad Desai said- "maybe India will become just a great democracy while china a great power".

Great democracy it is. Power comes and goes.


Dude, please stop it man. How can you tell people that shitting in your face is a testament of democracy. For god's sake, the basic requirement in a democracy is to ensure your rights are preserved. This right includes that ability to shit in dignity, not in front of your face or many other gazellion tourist faces. This is classical living in denial syndrome. GOI is a failure because they cannot ensure proper sanitation and hygiene for the population. I feel ashamed everytime I see a lady lift up her saree and pee right infront of me. IS THIS MY INDIA?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Jarita » 15 Nov 2009 09:00

Write up by Brahma Chellany


http://www.dailypioneer.com/215919/Checkmate-India.html
Checkmate India


.

Since ancient times, the Himalayas have universally been regarded as the northern frontiers of India. But having annexed Tibet, China has laid claim to areas far to the south of this Himalayan watershed, as underscored by its claim to Arunachal Pradesh — a State nearly three times the size of Taiwan. That Tibet remains at the core of the India-China divide is being underlined by Beijing itself as its claim to additional Indian territories is based on alleged Tibetan ecclesial or tutelary links to them, not any professed Han connection. Such attempts at incremental annexation actually draw encouragement from India’s self-injurious acceptance of Tibet as part of the People’s Republic of China.

The most-provocative Chinese essay, however, appeared on China International Strategy Net, a quasi-official website that enjoys the Communist Party’s backing and is run by an individual who made his name by hacking into United States’ Government websites in retaliation to the 1999 American bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. Posted on August 8, the essay called for a Chinese strategy to dismember multiethnic India into 20 to 30 fragments. This is an old, failed project China launched in the Mao years when it trained and armed Naga, Mizo and other tribal guerrillas in India’s restive northeast.


Against this background, India can expect no respite from Chinese pressure. Whether Beijing actually sets out to teach India “the final lesson” by launching a 1962-style surprise war will depend on several calculations, including India’s defence preparedness to repel such an attack, domestic factors within China and the availability of a propitious international timing of the type the Cuban missile crisis provided 47 years ago. But if India is not to be caught napping again, it has to inject greater realism into its China policy by shedding self-deluding shibboleths, shoring up its deterrent capabilities and putting premium on leveraged diplomacy.

-- Brahma Chellaney is professor of strategic studies at the privately funded Centre for Policy Research in New Delhi

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby csharma » 15 Nov 2009 09:10

What does Brahma Chellaney expect? China will sit idle when India is trying to establish itself as an Asian power. It is doing what any real power is expected to do. If India can counter it it should counter it else give up. No point in whining all the time.
Last edited by csharma on 15 Nov 2009 09:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 15 Nov 2009 09:12

If India is not careful, it will end up blundering into a war with China which will be to the ruin of our economic development.

I get the uneasy feeling a war of some kind is coming sometime down the road. Their over-aggressiveness will only lead to a stronger push back from India which will trigger a war.

Certain western countries are of course rubbing their hands hoping for it as it will stem/distract the world from their own decline.

Its important to maintain some kind of rapid reaction land/air force that can kick butt at a moment's notice so we don't end up in a 1962 situation of being humiliated and having our territory taken.

I notice the IAF is rapidly ageing with obsolete fighter aircraft and fewer numbers. That is rather worrysome. They really need to get those LCAs deployed by the hundreds by hook or crook if for no other reason that to keep the numbers up.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby santoshriyer » 15 Nov 2009 09:42

Why are we indians so critical of ourselves. I have observed it in my workplace also. There is a feeling of an inferiority complex when it comes to western technology too. Might be in the wrong thread. As our IAF cheif said we need not be under confident of china. If they want a war let them bring it on.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 15 Nov 2009 10:27

IS THIS MY INDIA?


Yes it is.

But it is changing, at its own pace. That is the literal context.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 15 Nov 2009 11:56

Neshant wrote:......I notice the IAF is rapidly ageing with obsolete fighter aircraft and fewer numbers. That is rather worrysome. They really need to get those LCAs deployed by the hundreds by hook or crook if for no other reason that to keep the numbers up.

really ? what is 'rapidly ageing', please ? does time move faster for the IAF ?
and pray what % of IAF fighters are obsolete in the context of china or pak ?
what are the corresponding numbers for PAF and PLAAF ?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 15 Nov 2009 12:28

China Focuses on Territorial Issues as It Equates Tibet to U.S. Civil War South

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/world ... ng.html?em
Manish Swarup/Associated Press
Devotees of the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan spiritual leader, caught a last glimpse of him on Thursday as he left Tawang in India.

By EDWARD WONG
Published: November 13, 2009
BEIJING — The Chinese government had a special message for President Obama on Thursday: He is black, he admires Abraham Lincoln, so he, of all people, should sympathize with Beijing’s effort to prevent Tibet from seceding and sliding back into what it was before its liberation by Chinese troops: a feudalistic, slaveholding society headed by the Dalai Lama.

Related
Obama Says U.S. Seeks to Build Stronger Ties to China (November 14, 2009)

Obama, in Japan, Says U.S. Will Study Status of a Marine Base on Okinawa (November 14, 2009)

“He is a black president, and he understands the slavery abolition movement and Lincoln’s major significance for that movement,” Qin Gang, a Foreign Ministry spokesman, said at a news conference.

Mr. Qin added: “Thus, on this issue we hope that President Obama, more than any other foreign leader, can better, more deeply grasp China’s stance on protecting national sovereignty and territorial integrity.”

For many Americans, Mr. Qin’s analogy might sound like a stretch, but it revealed which issues Chinese leaders see as among their top priorities, ones that Mr. Obama will no doubt have to grapple with after he arrives in China on Sunday for his first trip here.

While much attention will be focused on broad international issues like trade and currency values, climate change and the ailing world economy, questions of sovereignty and territory remain an obsession of Chinese foreign policy. Some scholars and analysts see this as an expression of an aggressive expansionism that will only deepen as China moves toward superpower status. Others argue that China is driven more by the need to recover territory wrested from it during the decades it was known as the Sick Man of Asia, when pieces of it were humiliatingly annexed by European powers and Japan.

As a result, Mr. Obama can expect to get an earful from Chinese officials not only on the Dalai Lama, whom the president says he will meet after the China trip, but also on Taiwan, the self-governing island that China says is a rebel province. Taiwan receives annual arms shipments from the United States.

“Tibet and Taiwan are, from China’s perspective, the two core sovereignty issues, and they rank above all others in Chinese diplomacy,” said David Shambaugh, a visiting scholar at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

Disputed territory is also the biggest obstacle in relations between China and its largest neighbor, India. On Tuesday, Mr. Qin denounced the Dalai Lama for his visit this week to the Tibetan Buddhist enclave of Tawang in the Indian Himalayan state of Arunachal Pradesh.

Tawang is one of the most potent symbols of China’s unresolved sovereignty issues. China says it was once part of Tibet, which the Chinese military seized in 1951, and so belongs to Beijing. India says that Tibetan leaders ceded it to British-ruled India in a 1914 treaty. Tawang figured centrally in a border war between China and India in 1962.

Part of the legitimacy of the Chinese Communist Party lies in the notion, rightly or wrongly held, that it ousted foreign influence from the country and has tried to reunite fragments of China to return the boundaries of the modern nation to roughly those of the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912) at its height. That includes Taiwan, Tibet, the western region of Xinjiang and, by China’s calculation, Tawang.

“In most respects, the People’s Republic of China, of course, inherits the fixed boundaries of its predecessor nation-state, the Republic of China, which declared as its territorial boundaries what had been mostly the messy frontiers of the Qing empire,” Alice Miller, a political scientist and research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, wrote in a China discussion forum posting that she agreed to make public.

“Messy” is the operative word here. In the age of empires, there were no hard and fast borders, whether the imperial rulers were the Ottoman Turks or the Manchus or the Moghuls. The seat of empire had its sphere of influence, radiating outward, with tributary states occupying the borderlands but rarely being governed in the same way as regions within a modern nation today.

Trying to define national borders along the contours of an old empire is a daunting task. If, for example, Tibet paid tribute to the Qing emperor at certain points in history, should Tibet be part of modern China? If Tawang did the same with Tibetan rulers in Lhasa, should Tawang be part of modern Tibet?

Along with India and Indonesia, China is one of a handful of vast, multiethnic nations that follow the contours of fallen empires. Because of their size and history, all three nations grapple with the same issues: border disputes, ethno-nationalism, occasionally violent movements by disaffected ethnic or religious minorities.

China is often criticized as handling uprisings harshly in Tibet and Xinjiang, which the country’s ethnic Han leaders consider internal issues of sovereignty. But in dealing with its neighbors on territorial issues, China has in the recent past generally sought to settle conflicts through negotiation, scholars say.

Since 1949, it has resolved 17 of 23 border disputes, offering concessions in 15 of those instances and, over all, receiving less than half of the contested territory, said M. Taylor Fravel, an associate professor of political science at M.I.T. The compromises have generally come at times of regime instability, when the Communist Party has felt threatened by external or internal forces, he added.

The big question, then, is whether Chinese leaders will continue to show flexibility on border issues as China becomes a greater world power, and as it stamps out internal threats.

China’s maritime disputes have proven harder to settle than those on land. In the resource-rich seas to its east and south, China is trying to assert control of various islands — most notably the Spratly, Paracel and Senkaku or Diaoyu Islands — that are also claimed in whole or in part by other Asian countries. In March, official Chinese news organizations reported that the government intended to send six more patrol vessels to the South China Sea in the next three to five years.

Even the United States has run directly afoul of China’s maritime border claims: On March 8, five Chinese vessels harassed an American surveillance ship in what Pentagon officials said are international waters. The Chinese insisted that the American ship, the Impeccable, was conducting illegal surveillance in waters under their jurisdiction.

Dennis C. Blair, the national intelligence director, told Congress that China’s general behavior in the South China Sea was “more military, aggressive, forward-pushing than we saw a couple of years before.”

This all speaks to how a bolder, brasher China might handle issues of sovereignty and territory, comparisons to Abraham Lincoln notwithstanding.

“The biggest unknown is how a stronger China will behave in its outstanding disputes,” Mr. Fravel said. “When it has compromised in the past, mostly in disputes on its land border, it was a relatively weak state. The question now becomes: how will a stronger China behave in its remaining territorial disputes over maritime sovereignty and with India?”


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Leonard » 15 Nov 2009 13:28

Sorry for the OT comment -- But someone HAD to do JUSTICE here !

Well, of course there are people in Rome living on the lower fringes, as does anywhere on earth. Nobody told you Rome was a fantasy land where everybody is dandy and happy, dancing to Bollywood tunes. But comparing their living standards to Indian living standards is absurd. Dissapointment over an expectation does not equate to that country being worse than India. You want to know worse crimes in Delhi due to poverty and lawlessness? Have you seen gazellion of kids swarming you for money when they should be schooling in Rome? Have you seen lil girls serving you chai when they should be schooling in Rome? Do you smell shit everywhere you go once you step out of that nice hotel? Or when you step out of the plane, the immigration officer asking you for a paisa or two? I have personally seen police brutality in Delhi, beating up someone like shit just because they did a petty crime. And don't even talk about pick pockets in Delhi.



Only Indian's are so wonderful, in creating "own goals" ...

West has "Democracy" --

Please travel to "Harlem", Chicago Projects, Inner city LA, -- worldwide -- the "poverty", filth, drugs, child prostitution, Kids Gangs -- have been brushed under the "Carpet"

Most NRIs just live their lives, and never venture off the "beaten path" ..


Yes India has its "Warts" --- None of us are denying they exist --- We accept what we can change --and work hard in other areas ! JMTs

Ultimately SATYAMAYE JAYATE !

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Dhiman » 15 Nov 2009 14:03

Neshant wrote:If India is not careful, it will end up blundering into a war with China which will be to the ruin of our economic development.


It would also ruin Chinese economic development, plus most likely lead to widespread open revolts in Tibet and Xinjiang. In the worse case, a full-fledged war would destroy the global trade if it involves targeting Chinese manufacturing facilities and ports, but the rest of the world would never allow the situation to get that bad since it will effect them too.

I get the uneasy feeling a war of some kind is coming sometime down the road. Their over-aggressiveness will only lead to a stronger push back from India which will trigger a war.


Part of the reason why Chinese are getting aggressive against India is to keep India bogged down so that it does not interfere in their weak spots: Tibet and Xinjiang (irrespective of the fact whether India wants to interfere or not). Expect the Chinese to start backing off if they feel that their tactics are having the opposite effect - and that is certainly starting to be the case with discussions on reevaluation of Indian role in Tibet. A war will happen only if the Chinese are stupid. Even a short-term localized conflict (that would have been in Chinese favor a couple of years back) may not work now. It may just spontaneously worsen the situation in Tibet and Xinjiang besides not leading to any gains on border as a result of increasing defenses.

My personal opinion is that the minimum credible deterrent against China is not nuclear, but the ability to cause a revolt in Tibet and Xinjiang if need be. At the same time, I also think that if the Chinese get an opportunity, they will take it.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby AnimeshP » 15 Nov 2009 21:53

Apologies if posted earlier ...
The Dalai Lama visit: New Delhi’s message to Tawang

Tawang, after all, only became a part of India on 6th February 1951, when a Naga officer, Major Robert Kathing, leading a platoon of Assam Rifles, was welcomed by cheering Monpas after he crossed the Sela Pass and ordered the people of Tawang to stop paying taxes to the Tibetans. Until then, Tibetan officials had controlled the Tawang tract, a huge chunk of territory protruding south towards Tezpur.


Ever since India’s abandonment of this area in 1962, Tawang’s opinion-makers have doubted India’s staying power in the face of serious Chinese pressure. And New Delhi has not done itself any favours with its disregard for its image on its vulnerable frontiers.

“Take a look at the army’s temporary barracks”, says Karma Wangchu, a former IB operative and then MLA, pointing to the flimsy tin sheds in which soldiers live. “The government seems ready to pack up and leave Tawang again. If they plan to say, why do they not have permanent buildings?”

Visible from many places on the Indian side of the border are China’s well-built concrete barracks, with roads connecting many of their border outposts. The Indian Army’s ramshackle infrastructure makes a deeply unfavourable contrast.

“Why does India not come out strongly and say that Tawang will never be given to China?” asks Lhakpa Tsering, a road-building contractor who has travelled widely across India. “The Dalai Lama’s visit shows that India is learning how to defy China, but people in Tawang need to be reassured. They feel that New Delhi will barter them away in a border settlement.”

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 16 Nov 2009 05:17

Its not a good idea to be pushing it too much with China. They say history repeats itself. India in the early 60s under Nehru was also confident that it could handle China until the 1962 war humiliated India greatly.

Over the next 10 years, India needs a strong military not to fight a war with China but to avoid one IMO. It should be among the most important foreign policy objectives. It would be preferable if their attention goes elsewhere.

Again I get the ill feeling we are headed towards some kind of confrontation with them. If it comes however, we shold be ready to give them hell of course but we must strive to avoid it at all costs.

Game theory predicts that its in their interest to cut India down before our economy achieves critical mass where we're 'too big to fail' even after they 'teach India a lesson'.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby harbans » 16 Nov 2009 05:35

Its not a good idea to be pushing it too much with China.

Rubbish. India is not pushing China. The Bully is to be pushed back for you not to be pushed by him, This is a known fact. People thinking like what you are thinking is what led to the 1962 disaster. I detest your kind of thinking. :evil:

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Anujan » 16 Nov 2009 05:41

Neshant wrote:Its not a good idea to be pushing it too much with China. They say history repeats itself. India in the early 60s under Nehru was also confident that it could handle China until the 1962 war humiliated India greatly.


They claim entire Arunachal. They occupy Aksai-Chin. Gave HEU and a design for N-bomb to the Pakis. Are complicit in supplying Missiles (M-11, M-9), aircraft (JF-Bandar, J-10) to the Pakis. Actively destabilized Nepal, prop up Military Junta in Myanmar. Vetoed listing LET chief as terrorist. Suspected in supplying arms to ULFA and NSCN-IM. Assisting Pakis in water works in PoK, affecting us directly through the "pre-existing use" clause in IWT. Are constructing a dam through Brahmaputra. Just to name a few.

And if we allow HH Dalai Lama to visit Arunachal, which is an integral part of India and who sends representatives to the Indian parliament, the cheenis would be hurt ?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Anant » 16 Nov 2009 05:45

Neshant,

I'd rather go back to India and die with dignity fighting the Chinese rather than think like you. Seriously, I don't understand how you can appease a bully; that's like giving him your daily lunch money and then getting your butt beaten daily after class. Worse come to worse, India has to go down fighting the Chinese. Simple as that.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 16 Nov 2009 06:18

Suspected in supplying arms to ULFA and NSCN-IM.

not suspected, known. ALL NE insurgent groups, not just these two receive arms from PRC (norinco to be specific)

people do underestimate the ability and resilience of both India's economy and her armed forces.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Hari Seldon » 16 Nov 2009 06:26

If the chinis coulkd have gotten away with delivering a tight military/territorial slap to Dilli's musharraf, they would have gladly gone for it by now.

That's not to say it can't happen tomorrow - but that fact that it didn't happen in all this time - when our troop levels and border infra were decidedly unhappy says something. Of course, we've woken up since the left crashed out of the UPA steering committee and have sent urgent reinforcements and infra projects. Good.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Karan Dixit » 16 Nov 2009 06:37

I do not think there are many Indians who realize the extent of brutality Chinese are capable of. As Anujan pointed out, they have been pushing us around for quite a while now. It is time GOI comes clean on China. Are we ready? If no, then why not? We, the people want to know.

Occupation of Tibet by China is not acceptable to Indians. Torture and degradation of our Tibetan brothers and sisters will serve as a basis for war with China. It will be started by China not India whether we want it or not. Bullies they never stop while they are ahead. The continue till they are forced to quit.

Just note the headline of the news below and you will notice what we are dealing with in China.

India strengthens border, irks China

http://in.news.yahoo.com/32/20091114/10 ... ina_1.html

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby gandharva » 16 Nov 2009 07:02

Caution advised

Following Union Home Secretary GK Pillai's statements last week about Maoists getting hold of Chinese made arms, the Government has asked the bureaucrat to restrain himself while speaking on sensitive issues involving the giant neighbour. The Grapevine has learnt that the Secretary has been asked to be a bit conservative:roll: while interacting with the media.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/NATION/Nation.html

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 16 Nov 2009 07:15

“Why does India not come out strongly and say that Tawang will never be given to China?” asks Lhakpa Tsering, a road-building contractor who has travelled widely across India. “The Dalai Lama’s visit shows that India is learning how to defy China, but people in Tawang need to be reassured. They feel that New Delhi will barter them away in a border settlement.”


Nations cannot do that.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Hari Seldon » 16 Nov 2009 07:17

Following Union Home Secretary GK Pillai's statements last week about Maoists getting hold of Chinese made arms, the Government has asked the bureaucrat to restrain himself while speaking on sensitive issues involving the giant neighbour. The Grapevine has learnt that the Secretary has been asked to be a bit conservative:roll: while interacting with the media.


Heh heh... and what are the odds the man who rises to become Union Home Secy is unaware of the protocol and modalities of media-interaction?

IMO, Sri Pillai's out-of-turn speaking and GoI's seeming rebuff are both an elaborate dance designed to get the message across to as wide an audience as possible, with plausible deniability in GoI hands should the matter get out of hand. Zimble only.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby harbans » 16 Nov 2009 07:24

This meek GOI must reassure the people of ArP that they will not be bartered away. Media must try and put pressure on the Govt. India must rake up the Tibet issue and in the wake of China raising South Tibet, we must raise the issue of self determination in North Tibet. Talks with China should be on North Tibet, Kailash, Mansarover, Aksai Chin. Obviously talks should be carried out in the usual brotherly give and take spirit and keeping considerations of Tibetan people supreme.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Surya » 16 Nov 2009 07:36

Guys

easy on Neshant

its understandable that knowing how our politicians are only interested in preserving their seat -one is a little unsure how prepared we are.

Bade
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 16 Nov 2009 09:04

Talks with China should be on North Tibet, Kailash, Mansarover, Aksai Chin.

Harbans, I like this usage. We should all be using the term to free North Tibet and not to free Tibet. Rest of Tibet if any is free already and enjoying their freedom being in India as visitors and some even as citizens. 8)

And, why do we use Aksai Chin. Cheen is far away if one takes out Xinjiang and Tibet from the present boundaries of China. Any reference to Chin for that sector should be removed.

Rahul M
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 16 Nov 2009 09:11

FWIW
Aksai Chin (the name literally means "white (ak) brook (sai) pass (chin)"

nothing to do with cheen ! :mrgreen:

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby samuel » 16 Nov 2009 09:16

IIT, IISc & IIM Tawang (visa free studies for bonafide tibetans, special id card issued and recognized at indian ports)
Nehru International Airport, Tawang. Direct flight to USA, UK, Japan, Singapore, Thailand and buddhist destinations.
All Tibet Radio, Itanagar
Arunachal Scouts
First Tibet Corps
Second Tibet Corps
Tibet Missile Regiment
1...32 Tibet Squadron
Spiritual Training and Development Institute, Jointly with HH Dalai Lama.
DRDO Itanagar,
DMRL, DRDL, Wildlife....

integrate it already.

Bade
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 16 Nov 2009 09:24

Rahul M wrote:FWIW
Aksai Chin (the name literally means "white (ak) brook (sai) pass (chin)"

nothing to do with cheen ! :mrgreen:


Of course it has nothing to do with Cheen :P , but why not call it CoK (not Kochi ;-)) instead of present use in place of Aksaiqin, just was we use PoK.

The first step for any great nation, is to re-write history or at least the narrative. If one is not ready for it, then the war is already lost.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 16 Nov 2009 09:27

umm, the reference to chin in this case is just accidental and it is in the local tongue, so why change from one Indian dialect to another ? what does that achieve ? :-?
aksaichin after all is not a name given by the chinese.

Bade
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 16 Nov 2009 09:29

Nehru International Airport, Tawang
Since I am in re-naming spree.. call it Indira Gandhi Hawaii Adda. It has ominous meanings, when compared to Nehruvian doctrine.

Bade
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 16 Nov 2009 09:31

Rahul_M, it does confuse the aam aadmi. Chin and Cheen will sound the same. Not everyone is a Wiki-read person.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 16 Nov 2009 10:00

Chin and Cheen will sound the same. Not everyone is a Wiki-read person.

agreed, but this solution at the cost of alienating the locals of ladakh ? sending them the message that they are not Indian enough ? I think what the locals feel is much more important in this case, if its an issue at all, rather than what people think in faraway faridabad.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 16 Nov 2009 10:07

btw the rulers of tibet for long gave a bloody nose to the chinese dynasties. only around 1700-1800 timeframe the Qing dynasty managed to engulf tibet. as a punishment they detached permanently the eastern part known as Kham and attached to the next province. guess thats where the "khampa horsemen" came from. long back the tang dynasty also briefly achieved some success there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasties_ ... se_history

another two places which were always PITA for the big han were Korea and Vietnam. Korea repeatedly gave them a bloody nose and so did vietnam to the extent where several dynasties explicity forbade their armies to attack vietnam-khmer area fearing more loss of H&D. the northern han cavalry the going hard in the malarial swamps and forests of souther china, same way the mughal cavalry oriented forces met their waterloo in the riverine areas like assam or the ravines of the western ghats.

instead they made a scapegoat out of the southern chinese in sichuan-guangdong-fujian region - raiding and pillaging for slaves, resources, territory.
Last edited by Singha on 16 Nov 2009 10:09, edited 1 time in total.

Bade
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 16 Nov 2009 10:08

Considering locals in this case sitting in Leh/Ladakh should not be an issue. Most of CoK is hardly inhabited even today from all accounts. So why not call it CoL ( as in Chinese occupied Ladakh) then. Makes it even more clearer to the locals and the rest of Indians who are not local.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby KLNMurthy » 16 Nov 2009 10:26

harbans wrote:This meek GOI must reassure the people of ArP that they will not be bartered away. Media must try and put pressure on the Govt. India must rake up the Tibet issue and in the wake of China raising South Tibet, we must raise the issue of self determination in North Tibet. Talks with China should be on North Tibet, Kailash, Mansarover, Aksai Chin. Obviously talks should be carried out in the usual brotherly give and take spirit and keeping considerations of Tibetan people supreme.


Pardon my ignorance, but do we have an Arunachal-specific formation in the Army? Like the Gurkhas or the Nagas do we have a Monpa formation, for example?

Bade
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 16 Nov 2009 10:27

btw the rulers of tibet for long gave a bloody nose to the chinese dynasties. only around 1700-1800 timeframe the Qing dynasty managed to engulf tibet. as a punishment they detached permanently the eastern part known as Kham and attached to the next province. guess thats where the "khampa horsemen" came from. long back the tang dynasty also briefly achieved some success there.


Was discussing the border issues with a colleague from dragon land. He alluded to something that I was not aware of...or maybe PRC propaganda. The claim was that HH Dalai Lama wants more than just North Tibet. So the PRC would find it hard to compromise where the borders are. Both Tibetans and Chinese have different perceptions of the actual border. He seemed not so aware of the Indo-Chinese Occupied Tibetan border issues.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby KLNMurthy » 16 Nov 2009 10:28

samuel wrote:IIT, IISc & IIM Tawang (visa free studies for bonafide tibetans, special id card issued and recognized at indian ports)
Nehru International Airport, Tawang. Direct flight to USA, UK, Japan, Singapore, Thailand and buddhist destinations.
All Tibet Radio, Itanagar
Arunachal Scouts
First Tibet Corps
Second Tibet Corps
Tibet Missile Regiment
1...32 Tibet Squadron
Spiritual Training and Development Institute, Jointly with HH Dalai Lama.
DRDO Itanagar,
DMRL, DRDL, Wildlife....

integrate it already.


Field Marshal Sam Maneckshaw Defence College, Tawang, Arunachal Pradesh, India.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby csharma » 16 Nov 2009 10:35

Bade wrote:
btw the rulers of tibet for long gave a bloody nose to the chinese dynasties. only around 1700-1800 timeframe the Qing dynasty managed to engulf tibet. as a punishment they detached permanently the eastern part known as Kham and attached to the next province. guess thats where the "khampa horsemen" came from. long back the tang dynasty also briefly achieved some success there.


Was discussing the border issues with a colleague from dragon land. He alluded to something that I was not aware of...or maybe PRC propaganda. The claim was that HH Dalai Lama wants more than just North Tibet. So the PRC would find it hard to compromise where the borders are. Both Tibetans and Chinese have different perceptions of the actual border. He seemed not so aware of the Indo-Chinese Occupied Tibetan border issues.


HH Dalai Lama has accepted that tawang belongs to India. From what I understand, he has changed his position recently.

In any case, the free Tibet govt had agreed to teh Macmahon line with the British Indian govt back in 1914.


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