India-China News and Discussion

Gog · Post by **Gog** » 04 Sep 2009 22:57

[quote="]let me tell one truth:

economy is the base while all others ,including politcal system,are all the upper buildings on the base.

"west democarcy" on the backward economy base always just get deformd,just as India's babaus-ruled democracy ,African tribe-decided democracy and Latin-amrican tycoon-ruled deomocracy.[/quote]

Babu's do not rule India. Elected representating certain ideals amonst the Indian electorate rule India for a fixed time. Even those representatives work at the will of the populace. There is no comparison. Even the worst elected representative is better tha the CCP and PLA goon.

Freedom is the ideal and goal of human development. Freedom is the need of every individual and animals. Why even Panda's dont like to be disturbed in their habitat. They like to be left alone. With freedom comes an expression of beauty that cannot even be thought of. Freedom is an irreplaceable need of all human beings except for the CCP, CCP politburo propaganda members and PLA.

If economy was the base. then CCP would not be instigating the syringe stabbings and not doing anything.

CCP and CCP propoganda memebrs instigated the riots and the Syringe stabbings. In West Uigurs , Tibetans and Han chinese hug each other and go to parties together. It is the brutal repression of CCP that brings forth irrational reaction from Chinese.

Give back the freedom of Chinese. Let the chinese alone.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 04 Sep 2009 22:58

{Please refrain from quoting entire post, thanks! - moderator}
it is you that lost the point.

the aim of any political system ,including deomcracy and autocracy, is designed to bring peace, perperity and order to the county.

"the will of the people is paramount" you called is not the aim,but one of many of tools .

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 04 Sep 2009 22:59

So, when sevearl decades passed , You indian find that India has nothing changed but the face of Indian babus while CHinese has everything changed but CCP.

Touche. Well put and unfortunately true.

sukhdeo · Post by **sukhdeo** » 04 Sep 2009 23:05

Babu's do not rule India. Elected representating certain ideals amonst the Indian electorate rule India for a fixed time. Even those representatives work at the will of the populace. There is no comparison. Even the worst elected representative is better tha the CCP and PLA goon.

You are right. Babus dont rule India. People rule .

Freedom is the ideal and goal of human development. Freedom is the need of every individual and animals.

What about freedom to have a good standard of living ? Goggy, my friend, you have made too much of a purchase of Western propoganda about freedom. Dont take all this freedom talk too seriously, go with the economy and freedom will automatically follow. And you are getting too emotional about "India is best". I appreciate your patriotism, but channel it constructively. Be loyal to our people, our culture and work to get good values within our system, so we truly prosper and become powerful. Dont defend the babus, the goon politicians, the rot within us. These are our enemies. Work to get rid of them. Defending the status quo that Indian politicians and the ruling elite of the moment, who are all goons, represent is not being patriotic, but unpatriotic. Dont do it in the name of freedom.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 04 Sep 2009 23:09

the relation of economy and upper buildings is one of Marxism's basic principles.

every Chinese mid-school students study it . I did so when I was once a m-school student.

although many ideas of Marxism are outdated now, I do think that it is stil the truth that "economy is the base while all upper buildings are based on economy".

Gog · Post by **Gog** » 04 Sep 2009 23:11

Liu wrote:
"the will of the people is paramount" you called is not the aim,but one of many of tools .

What has the will got to do with tools. How can you substitute will with tools. who gave you the authority to subjugate the will of millions of chinese. With will you can create thousands of tools. with will you can create new world order. Free the Chinese and see how capable they are. Free the Chinese and see how much they are respected. I would not be surprised if they will be considered the elder brother and elder sisters of the world. Free the chinese and see how the world looks up to them.

Right now my chinese friends besides me are laughing your politburo propoganda.

CCP does not realise the value of peace until chinese turn violent and kick them out.

Long live Chinese freedom struggle!

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 04 Sep 2009 23:13

[quote="sukhdeo"]

Totally agree. India would be waaaay... up there if not for Babus - look at our lost decades because of licence raj - and all the poverty one sees now is a direct legacy of that LR! Look at this (sorry if posted before):

HTTP://WWW.NYTIMES.COM/2009/01/02/OPINI ... .HTML?_R=1
Op-Ed Contributor The Next World Order By GURCHARAN DAS Published: January 1, 2009 New Delhi

CHINA and India are in a struggle for a top rung on the ladder of world power, but their approaches to the state and to power could not be more different.

Two days after last month’s terrorist attack on Mumbai, I met with a Chinese friend who was visiting India on business. He was shocked as much by the transparent and competitive minute-by-minute reporting of the attack by India’s dozens of news channels as by the ineffectual response of the government. He had seen a middle-class housewife on national television tell a reporter that the Indian commandos delayed in engaging the terrorists because they were too busy guarding political big shots. He asked how the woman could get away with such a statement.

I explained sarcasm resonates in a nation that is angry and disappointed with its politicians. My friend switched the subject to the poor condition of India’s roads, its dilapidated cities and the constant blackouts. Suddenly, he stopped and asked: “With all this, how did you become the second-fastest growing economy in the world? China’s leaders fear the day when India’s government will get its act together.”

The answer to his question may lie in a common saying among Indians that “our economy grows at night when the government is asleep.” As if to illustrate this, the Mumbai stock market rose in the period after the terrorist attacks. Two weeks later, in several state elections, incumbents were ousted over economic issues, not security.

All this baffled my Chinese friend, and undoubtedly many of his countrymen, whose own success story has been scripted by an efficient state. They are uneasy because their chief ally, Pakistan, is consistently linked to terrorism while across the border India’s economy keeps rising disdainfully. It puzzles them that the anger in India over the Mumbai attacks is directed against Indian politicians rather than Muslims or Pakistan.

The global financial crisis has definitely affected India’s growth, and it will be down to perhaps 7 percent this year from 8.7 percent in 2007. According to my friend, China is hurting even more. What really perplexes the Chinese, he said, is that scores of nations have engaged in the same sorts of economic reforms as India, so why is it that it’s the Indian economy that has become the developing world’s second best? The speed with which India is creating world-class companies is also a shock to the Chinese, whose corporate structure is based on state-owned and foreign companies.

...In a much-discussed magazine article last year, Lee Kwan Yew, the former prime minister of Singapore, raised an important question: Why does the rest of the world view China’s rise as a threat but India’s as a wonderful success story? The answer is that India is a vast, unwieldy, open democracy ruled by a coalition of 20 parties. It is evolving through a daily flow of ideas among the conservative forces of caste and religion, the liberals who dominate intellectual life, and the new forces of global capitalism.

The idea of becoming a military power in the 21st century embarrasses many Indians. This ambivalence goes beyond Mahatma Gandhi’s nonviolent struggle for India’s freedom, or even the Buddha’s message of peace. The skeptical Indian temper goes back to the 3,500-year-old “Nasadiya” verse of the Rig Veda, which meditates on the creation of the universe: “Who knows and who can say, whence it was born and whence came this creation? The gods are later than this world’s creation. Who knows then whence it first came into being?” When you have millions of gods, you cannot afford to be theologically narcissistic. It also makes you suspect power.

Both the Chinese and the Indians are convinced that their prosperity will only increase in the 21st century. In China it will be induced by the state; in India’s case, it may well happen despite the state. Indians expect to continue their relentless march toward a modern, democratic, market-based future. In this, terrorist attacks are a noisy, tragic, but ultimately futile sideshow.

However, Indians are painfully aware that they must reform their government bureaucracy, police and judiciary — institutions, paradoxically, they were so proud of a generation ago. When that happens, India may become formidable, a thought that undoubtedly worries China’s leaders.

Gurcharan Das is the author of “India Unbound.”[/size]

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 04 Sep 2009 23:15

sukhdeo wrote:
Babu's do not rule India. Elected representating certain ideals amonst the Indian electorate rule India for a fixed time. Even those representatives work at the will of the populace. There is no comparison. Even the worst elected representative is better tha the CCP and PLA goon.

You are right. Babus dont rule India. Goons rule China.

well, you are wise man. I do aggreicate that you are brave enough to face the reality of your county.

if there are more guys likes you, then your county may have more chance to have a thorough reform and change.

however, it is pity that you county now are full of guys like gog..

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 04 Sep 2009 23:21

do you know how mobocracy appear?

do you know how Plato was dead?

Do you know how Robespierre could massacre thousands of innocents ,then was sent to one Guillotine during the French great Revelution?

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 05 Sep 2009 02:04

Liu wrote:
we chinese think it a pleasure to built some infastructures, then demonish it and built some brand-new ones after several years.

So, when several decades passed , You indian find that India has nothing changed but the face of Indian babus while CHinese has everything changed but CCP.

I tend to agree. This in fact should be pinned at the top of the India-China discussion as a fundamental saying from our dear Chinese visitor. Very perceptive.

In India we do tend to believe that some things should change only slowly and deliberately. But the "Babus", the civil servants, come and go. They are not allowed to be in the same place and become local Warlords or Apparatchiks as done in PRC.

On the other hand, in China everything can be swept away, and destroyed, every now and then, and they put up new structures, thinking that this is progress. Even termites build grand structures. Does not make them civilized or advanced, though they manage to make themselves feared.

IOW, in India everything is about moving FORWARD slowly, deliberately, taking into account the best interests of all, and being considerate as much as possible to every Indian citizen.

In China, it is all about appearances. "FACE" is the big thing - look how that sweet little child with the wonderful voice and talent was put behind a screen because her FACE wasn't impressive enough per the Chinese Warlords, to put on Olympic TV!!!

So the Warlords arrest, beats up, tortures and kills citizens with absolutely no regard for any law or sense or justice. Probably since they look like barrels of lard with pumpkins on top, they don't put their FACEs on display to the public, anyway they have good reason to fear that if their FACES are exposed, they will meet fast-moving rotten tomatos from their loving subjects.

In India, OTOH, the Babus are expected to face the public, so we do see the faces of the Babus.

It's all about FACE. Chinese are always terrified of losing FACE. Great post, Ms. Liu!!

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 05 Sep 2009 02:11

Liu wrote:

do you know how mobocracy appear?

Ms. Liu, this is another thing about which I have always wanted to ask, but never met any Chinese person willing to discuss it.

In China you had the "Cultural Revolution". In reality all that was done was to destroy any culture and replace it with the Communist Termite culture. So many millions of people were beaten up, and dragged off to "Re-Education Camps", many never returned. I have actually met several engineers and scientists who suffered such torture. Decent people, not even Falun Gong.

So Chinese people are certainly experts on MoboCrazy on a national scale. In 1949, then again in the 1960s, and now it seems to be coming along nicely in Xinjiang, in Urumqui (sorry, you call it "Wulumqui" because you won't even grant the local people the right to call their home by their own name - Cultural Revolution?)

So please do teach us this great experience of Chinese MoboCrazy. Is it coming back to take over all of China. Will you be going to a Re-Education camp? What do they teach in Re-Education Camp?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 05 Sep 2009 05:16

2. "Primary needs" and "freedom" are linkages that the chinese govt is desperately trying to link in recent years. No. They are not linked. But that linkage certainly helped Walmart with its labour policies and profits.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 05 Sep 2009 06:27

What I dont really understand is CCP hypocrisy.

How can you be a Communist and still have a Capitalist economic system? That is akin to Mao wearing Western Imperialist Jockey Chaddi and brandishing it proudly with a sickel in hand, of course the colour of the "garment" would be red. What is Communism in the first place? It is the complete rejection of capitalism as a system in one aspect. How can you have a Communist govt in the center and an all out Capitalist system in place? Perhaps CCP should be read as CDP. Capitalist Dictatorship Party.

On the one hand the Chinese Communists go about talking of how "Capitalists will be given hell" and then they openly allied with US against a fellow Communist SU. Then they end up serving Capitalism at the lowest level in hierarchy, in the factory floor. What are we to make of Chinese thinking in this aspect? How can the Indian Govt ever trust the CCP who will even side with the devil to make sure it remains in power in China?

As for economy being the most important thing of all is hogwash. Look at USSR and Yugoslavia. At their peak, they had economies which were rated as middle income level and the SU was even competing with the US with an economy half in size of the latter at around 3 Trillion at that time. But 3 trillion became shoonya, the country stopped existing, the people of SU proved that what matters is freedom. Freedom brings with it inefficiencies but that is acceptable to me as against nepotism, state inflicted genocide and hypocrisy of the highest order.

sukhdeo · Post by **sukhdeo** » 05 Sep 2009 09:53

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Chinese-t ... 50429.aspx

What do people make of this ?

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 05 Sep 2009 17:51

ADMIN NOTE:

There is nothing new in the following themes:

1. India is a democracy. With a large bureaucracy and hundreds of millions of poor people. And infrastructure that lags far behind where we wish it were. But progress comes through the agreement of the people, and the people want the government to care about the people, certainly including the least empowered and least wealthy of the people.

2. China is ruled by the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). They take pride in their infrastructure, and believe that this is far better than having personal freedoms. China has no poor people - only those who can afford first-class travel and Mercedes-Benzes - and those who work in the factories to pay for those tickets and cars. Others - well... China does not appreciate having to talk while holding nose.

China has no bureaucracy, only Executives, and anyone who says otherwise is a Splittist Falun Gong Tibetan Uighur and will be Executed. Confucius say: "Dead Falun Gong Tibetan and one big empty skyscraper a day, keep the Splittists away. Give more nuclear weapons to North Korea and Pakistan, and sign more treaties with forked-tongued Capitalist Imperialist who will sell you the rope with which to hang them."

Enough.

Now pls post NEWS and discussion on the NEWS. Not OLDS. People who present the Chinese viewpoint are WELCOME here - just don't feel compelled to attack India and Indians or other postors here. Likewise, ppl who for whatever reason don't particularly love the PRC are also welcome here - just don't attack the postors defending the Chinese system. Their views are very interesting to understand.

When someone starts going off the deep end, I DO check to see what triggered that, and those who triggered it by personal attack can expect to get the Instant Ban, now that I have finally discovered where that button is.

Please continue this exhilarating and most illuminating discussion, the best of its kind in the world, with no more postors getting banned. Thanks!

sukhdeo · Post by **sukhdeo** » 05 Sep 2009 17:56

Webmaster blue,

What about my post which talks about China and the potential Islamist threat to it and its vulnerabilities. I had done a bit of research before posting it and also spoken to several hardcore muslims in my area, who are active in mosques and there is this one group of them that specifically focusses on China to find converts. They also informed me that outside of Sinkiang, Islam is the fastest growing religion in China (this according to them, I had no way to independently verify this) and that China is the new battleground for conversion as the Christian missionaries of all hue are busy converting Chinese to Christianity, to where China now has a very sizable Christian population too.

Normally we think of China as this strong bully with devious and Macheavalean approach and that it is like an infallible brick wall, but I sensed a vulnerability in China from the Islamists, internal and external and then I tried to correlate their behaviour and attitudes towards Islamic countries, which I found during my research to be surprisingly gentle and more of coddling and pampering, unlike their attitude with just about anyone else. This led me to believe that the Chinese themselves are somewhat aware of their vulnerabilities and attempting to buy the Islamists off. I concluded by saying that the Islamists cannot be bought off and that all their coddling of Islamists in Pakistan and elsewhere will come back to bite them and they will rue the day they spurned Nehru's hand in friendship in preference to Pakistan.

I mention all this, because I thought this is an area where there wasnt a whole lot of existing insight on BRF and I happened to stumble into a bunch of Islamists who happened to be actively pursuing converts in China. My whole post got lost in this jingoistic clutter. I thought this would elevate the quality of discussion and we could explore areas where China is genuinely vulnerable and how we can use that vulnerability to India's interest (as opposed to our jingos imagined weaknesses that China has).

I didnt get very many responses to my post. That post had nothing to do with India-China comparisons etc which raises temperatures on this thread. A cool discussion of that issue I think would be good. If no one else, at least you can respond, even with disagreements, because as moderator, if you focus on good and quality posts and sometimes respond to those, it helps to move the discussion in a positive area, as opposed to this jingoistic antagonism.

So, webmaster blue, what do you think of that post ?
{If you don't want your insightful, well-researched posts to get lost in bissing contests and deleted threads, the solution is to save them and write them up for peer-reviewed publication - see "SRR thread" at the top of the Strategic Affairs forum. You can have them seen and admired by millions and for millions of years, and in fact, articles on China events may be of great interest at present. Thx. - "Webmaster Blue"

}

archan · Post by **archan** » 05 Sep 2009 19:35

The continued pissing contests will have their casualties, let me warn ahead...
Suffice to say that some people have degraded the forum and we are considering doing some pruning.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Sep 2009 20:00

My question is, who checks the moderators

In other words you are stating:

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Let me assure you that Raman has advised me on a thread! Narayanan, I think, in his own unique style stated something that was for me. Mutual monitoring. Thereafter, if the need be it is also debated out in the Moderators forum.

So, let's take it easy and get busy.

In fact, Narayanan is very witty.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Sep 2009 20:07

I know that two wrongs dont make a right, but where is the equity, when you let off a mass murderer and censor a petty thief.

You are also very witty.

Honest.

I nearly fell off the chair laughing!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Sep 2009 20:11

http://www.apsanet.org/imgtest/TaskForc ... lecher.pdf
Inequality and Capitalism in China

For the socio-economists - please do care to look into this excellent summary, although 5 years old. It cannot have changed very much in reality. Although some of my Chinese colleagues admit the problem, they are trying to say that "this year" the situation has improved. But at least they acknowledge that this is a "serious problem".

When its experiment with Maoist socialism came to an exhausted end, China had one of the most egalitarian distributions of income in the world. The Gini coefficient (GR) of national income distribution was .33 (Griffen and Zhao 1993), a tremendous achievement for so vast and differentiated a country. At the grassroots level, income distribution in the people’s communes was also highly egalitarian.1 In the urban areas, it was an “exceptionally low” .16 (Griffin and Zhao 1993). One of the biggest and most startling, though often overlooked, stories of the country’s economic restructuration2 since 1978 is that China is now one of the Asia’s most unequal societies. Overall, economic inequality in Latin America and Africa may still be worse. But in less than three decades the Gini coefficient of China’s overall family income distribution has surpassed India and Indonesia, and is now approaching the Philippines and Malaysia, which are the most unequal in Asia (see table 1).

The single largest component of China’s stunning disequalization is the gap between the urban and rural areas. In 2002, the distribution of per-capita income in both urban (GR=.32) and rural China (GR=.38) was greater than the overall national figure (GR=.40) (Khan and Riskin n.d., 38). In 2002 the ratio of average urban:rural per-capita income reached 3:1, which Khan and Riskin describe as “staggering… [and] almost unheard of in the developing world” (n.d., 34).

In the urban areas, income inequality actually declined during the very rapid economic growth and proletarianization — i.e., the proliferation of wage labor in the burgeoning capitalist sector — from 1995 (GR=.332) to 2002 (GR=.318). Is primitive capitalism occurring with distinctive, less hard-edged “Chinese characteristics”, as Mao and Deng liked to say about all manner of imports? Not particularly: the Gini coefficient of urban per-capita wage income rose from .25 in 1995 to .32 in 2002. The major reason for the somewhat surprising overall decline in the urban Gini is the privatization of housing and the reform of non-housing subsidies, which had been benefiting better-off urbanites (Khan and Riskin nd, 19-21).

In a development that shook many Chinese, including the new leadership, the number of destitute poor, which China classifies as those earning less than $75 a year, increased in 2004 for the first time in 25 years by 800,000 to 30,000,000 people, even as the economy grew by 9 percent.5 The 30,000,000 figure is a serious underestimate, however, covering only those with purchasing power parity (PPP) of 66.6¢/day. A more realistic figure for 1998, using the international standard of $1 PPP and adjusting more accurately for inflation, yields a range of 103,000,000-187,000,000 rural poor and 5,500,000-15,000,000 urban poor (Yao, Zhang, and Hanmer 2004).

The increased inequality between male and female wages was greatest in the most marketized sectors of the economy, which suggests that the gap could have widened even further since 1995.6

With the onset of the structural reforms, China’s working class has become more differentiated while also being knocked off its pedestal. State sector employment has shrunk (to around 75,000,000 in 2001, from a peak of 110,000,000 in 1995) (Statistical Yearbook of China 2002) and become more precarious, as many firms laid off large numbers of workers or even went bankrupt. Wages in the state sector, formerly set by a uniform scale, became dependent on the economic fortunes of the enterprise, which of course rendered them much more differentiated and variable. A smaller and rapidly shrinking sector of industry owned by local governments employed 12,400,000 workers in 2001, down from 36,300,000 in 1991 (Statistical Yearbook of China 2002). Private-sector employment, in both domestic, joint-venture and foreign-owned firms, grew apace, especially in the 1990s, reaching 21,400,000 in 2001 compared almost nothing a decade earlier and 9,400,000 in 1996.8 A large informal sector developed, comprised both of rural migrants and unemployed urbanites; reliable figures do not exist, but the order of magnitude is surely several tens of millions.9

In 2001, China had 325,000,000 people employed in farming (Statistical Yearbook 2002), who, as we have seen, are being left way behind the country’s galloping urban growth. They too are a differentiated group. Those in areas with good natural conditions can eke out a living on the land, though farm income is so low that farmers who maintain a good standard almost always do so through significant off-farm employment.

Finally, there is a burgeoning lumpenproletariat of sex workers, drug addicts and criminals, including gang members. Most hail from the urban unemployed or the pauperized rural population.

There are more - please read up. Wish poster Liu was not banned so she could respond.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Sep 2009 23:08

thread cleaned up.

Please think a little before posting to decide if the material is relevant to this thread.
It is member's duty to self-moderate and keep within the thread limits.
Please don't post in a way which forces mods to intervene.
Rahul.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 06 Sep 2009 00:18

Is China itching to wage war on India?
Far Eastern Economic Review[Saturday, September 05, 2009 23:08]

India's Growing China Angst

By Brahma Chellaney

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx ... 61&t=1&c=4

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2009 00:58

sukhdeo wrote:I must also commend Ramana for one other thing. Every forum, in order to lighten things up and act as a distraction, requires a comedian sidekick, a la 60s bollywood movie style. Remember Rajender Nath or a guy called Johnny Whiskey or even Keshto. Well, with all due respects to Rajender Nath, or Johnny Whisky, I think Ramana in a master stroke has picked a perfect sidekick for this forum in this Sanku person. He is a riot !

yes, we are all very impressed by your wit.

warning 2 issued for ad hominem attack.

===========================

sukhdeo wrote:
Welcome to the forum.

With that kind of clear thinking and hard hitting post, I am pleasantly surprised to see that our resident sidekick who also doubles as a hatchetman(multi-tasking), Johnny Whiskey has not come after you.

how like a typical paki you think you have found a way to insult a person and proceed to milk it, decency be damned.

oh well, warning 3 issued.

===========================

sukhdeo wrote:Watch out, Masaru. Here comes Johnny Whiskey.

Anyone who is not delusional is a commie, says our officially sanctioned forum sidekick.

and warning 4 issued for persistent trolling.

===========================

sukhdeo wrote: But I suspect he does this as a hatchetman for one or two forum adminstrators who dont like my philosophy of self help. {that would be me, absolutely cowering in my dhoti here at the mere sight of your posts ! } I dont want to suppress this guy either, even his offensive comments, if it is genuinely him talking and not being someone's proxy. Even otherwise, I dont want to suppress him, .{yes Sir Talkalot, but we are not here to listen to your ideas on forum management are we ? stick to the point.}
but I did highlight several of his offending posts and requested the forum admins to restrain him. Instead of restraining him, I was issued warnings, veiled threats of being banned, and other tactics were being used to suppress my writings. {wow ! so much victimhood ! kudos for displaying yet another adorable trend observed in our western neighbour. !
btw, you are being extremely 'economical' with the truth for I remember seeing no reports from you. well, whatever floats your victimhood}

When no attempt was made to restrain Sanku, a couple of us {who's the other one ? AFAIK it is only you. unless you have a split personality or worse !
another case of being economical with the truth ?} in an attempt to make light of the situation, said that Sanku is the "proverbial sidekick" from 60s bollywood along the lines of Keshto, Rajinder Nath and Johnny Whiskey (or Walker ??), who always does the tacky dance on behest of the hero.

Frankly, I am only one voice, but I have noticed several others here have the same sentiments, that we would like to see this forum move away from the blames, rants and whines, the kind that is represented by threads such as "Terrorist Republic of Pakistan" {so you have takleef with the TSP thread too, hmmm} into more of a discussion of what WE can do collectively to move our society, people and country forward.

that bit of ad hominem attack earns the 5th warning.
and that is enough to conclude your stay on BR, but I'm sure I can find more such gems if I look.

given enough rope .........(you know the rest)
kudos for proving it again.

bye !

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Sep 2009 06:19

Chinese doctors say some claims of needle-stabbings are mistaken
From Wen-Chun Fan
CNN

URUMQI, China (CNN) -- Reports of alleged syringe stabbings ..are generating a bit of panic, but doctors say some people have incorrectly concluded they were attacked with needles.

"In the patients we have seen in the last couple of days, there are many which we believe were not actually punctured with needles," Wang Hanbin, a Peoples' Liberation Army doctor examining people in Urumqi, told reporters on Saturday at a briefing.

Wang said about 20 cases are being investigated closely and samples were being taken to laboratories in Beijing for more testing. But, he said, "many of the patients we have seen were mainly influenced by psychological factors."

Wang, a member of a six-person military medical panel reviewing the syringe-stabbing claims, attributes the false reports to widespread fear and lack of medical knowledge.

"Many of the patients did not actually see their attacker or the act of others attacking them with needles. Some patients who had needle puncture wounds experienced some discomfort in the area of the wound, and showed some symptoms, but couldn't give an accurate account of what they perceived to have been a needle attack."

This is the latest crisis plaguing Xinjiang province and its capital city of Urumqi, where tensions have boiled over between Uyghurs and Han Chinese. The Han Chinese are the country's dominant ethnic group, and the Uyghurs are a Turkic-speaking Muslim minority who consider Xinjiang their homeland.

Ethnic Uyghurs have been blamed for the alleged syringe stabbings, and demonstrators clashed with police in Urumqi for two days this week over the issue. Protesters were demanding better police protection and a crackdown on the Uyghurs.

The latest unrest left five people dead and 14 injured, according to Urumqi's deputy mayor, and the Communist party chief in the city has been dismissed from his job amid the crisis, according to state-run media reported.

The Urumqi Public Prosecutors Office on Saturday said four ethnic Uyghurs were arrested in connection with three syringe-wielding incidents.

At the press conference held by military medical personnel, the doctors said puncture wounds could not be found "in a large percentage of the patients."

"Some could have been bitten by insects such as mosquitoes, and in other cases there were moles, or skin pigmentation, and we couldn't find a needle puncture wound," said Wang, speaking at the news conference.

"Maybe they heard something from someone, then they discovered that they had a growth on their body. So, then they suspect that they may have been attacked with a needle and came to seek treatment. Some patients who came to seek treatment had some red marks or rash on their skin, but we didn't find any needle puncture wounds."

Wang urged people not to panic and urged them to immediately seek medical treatment if they think they were stabbed. He also said people need to educate themselves about medical care.

Rumors have abounded in Urumqi of recent syringe stabbers trying to spread AIDS and other diseases. But another doctor, Duan Qing, explained at the briefing that would be impossible for there to be any such cases of AIDS, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C, or syphilis because there is a lengthy incubation period.

"Even if there are cases of such illnesses, they are unrelated to incidents. This is basic medical knowledge," she said.

The three incidents that led to the arrests occurred in late August.

A man admitted stabbing a female shopper with a pin on August 28.

Authorities said a man and woman on August 29 stole money from a taxi driver after threatening him with a syringe.

And in the third incident, a man resisting arrest stabbed a police officer with a syringe on August 31.

These people are pretty silly - or a bunch of whiny iklaute bete imagining that Uighurs with needles are poking them, even when there was no one anywhere near them.

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 06 Sep 2009 06:56

narayanan wrote:
Chinese doctors say some claims of needle-stabbings are mistaken

These people are pretty silly - or a bunch of whiny iklaute bete imagining that Uighurs with needles are poking them, even when there was no one anywhere near them.

Actually ... there was a similar panic in Bangalore in 2003-04 wherein rumors were flying that some guy with AIDS was going around in crowded places stabbing people with a syringe loaded with his blood ... never turned into a riot though ...

It could be the result of a chain mail ... check this out ...
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/madmen/pinprick.asp

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Sep 2009 19:45

China violates Int'l Border in Ladakh

Yawn. News would be when the chinis don't violate the border, for a change.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 06 Sep 2009 20:38

Why dont IA put land-mines in those areas !! Chicoms will think 1000 times before even crossing it.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Sep 2009 23:21

Jo badal garajte hain woh baraste nahin.

China is putting on a show sha along the borders. India is gearing up too. China will not take this to a war or even a major skirmish. There will be plenty of teasing on the borders sometimes even hotting up.

Ultimately, the CCP is afraid of what a major skirmish will do to their economy, growth rate, and international image which they have sought to build so carefully as seen in the olympics.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Sep 2009 23:28

Per the Indian commander quoted from Ladakh, Indian patrolling is not totally defensive either.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Sep 2009 03:44

'India-China border has become more hot than India-Pak border'

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 07 Sep 2009 10:38

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/100805/chi ... ssure.html

Can somebody post a summary

niran · Post by **niran** » 07 Sep 2009 11:40

Acharya wrote:http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/100805/chi ... ssure.html

Can somebody post a summary

Clicky

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Sep 2009 13:13

Why India is Clueless about China

Brahma Chellany wrote:Today, China's muscle-flexing along the Himalayas cannot be ignored. After all, even when China was poor and backward, it employed brute force to annex Xinjiang (1949) and Tibet (1950), to raid South Korea (1950), to invade India (1962), to initiate a border conflict with the Soviet Union through a military ambush (1969) and to attack Vietnam (1979).

A prosperous, militarily strong China cannot but be a threat to its neighbours, especially if there are no constraints on the exercise of Chinese power.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 07 Sep 2009 13:39

Incursions into India never happened: China

LEH (J&K): China on Monday rejected the reports that its army has brazenly violated the International Border in Ladakh region and painted boulders and rocks in the area red.
"Reports of incursions are groundless. Incursions into India never happened," Chinese foreign ministry said, according to Times Now.
"We will seek a friendly solution to the issue through negotiations," China said.

Its all evil India Media conspiracy. Panda is peace loving and friendly neighbour onleee. Just ask Karat and Co.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 07 Sep 2009 14:45

In detail:

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/09sep07/news.htm#1

LEH, Sept 6: After helicopter incursions into Indian airspace, the Chinese army has brazenly violated the International Border in Ladakh region and painted boulders and rocks in the area red.
The Chinese troops entered nearly 1.5 kilometres into the Indian territory near Mount Gya, recognised as International Border by India and China, and painted the boulders and rocks with red spray paint, official sources said.
The incursions were reported from the area, generally referred in the Chumar sector in east of Leh, and painted “China” in Cantonese with Red spray paint all over the boulders and rocks, they said.
The 22,420 ft Mount Gya, also known as “fair princess of snow” by Army is located at the tri-junction of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir, Spiti in Himachal Pradesh, and Tibet. Its boundary was marked during the British era and regarded as International Border by the two countries.
The border patrol discovered the red paint markings on various rocks and boulders along the Zulung La (pass) on July 31 and the Chinese had entered into the area and written “China” and “China” all over the place, the sources said.
When asked to comment on the issue, an Army spokesperson declined to answer any queries regarding this saying it was an operational matter.
Though the spokesperson refused to answer further questions, senior Army officials said the issue was being downplayed as three of its Generals were currently in Beijing and Lhasa under an exchange programme.
This incident was viewed with seriousness by the officials as the Chinese have made foray into these areas for the first time since independence and sprayed the area with red marking as deep as 1.5 to 1.7 kilometres of the Indian territory.
The border forces talked to the locals located along the border in Ladakh and Spiti from where they came to know about the incursions by the People’s Liberation Army of China in this area.
River Pareechu, which runs through Himachal Pradesh, has been a headache for frequent floods, enters Tibet from this region only.
Before this, Chinese helicopters had violated the Indian air space along the Line of Actual Control in Chumar region only in June and also Helli-dropped some expired food.
Reacting to this, the Army spokesperson had said “there was a report of a helicopter flying in the area south of Chumar, where India and China have differences in perception on the Line of Actual Control. It was reported by grazers.”
India and China have been engaged in talks over the Line of Actual Control and had exchanged maps in 2002. In the western sector (East Jammu and Kashmir), the Samar Lungpa area, between the Karakoram Pass and the Chipchap river, is contentious, with Chinese maps showing the LAC to be south of the Samar Lungpa.
This is the northernmost part of the border, far to the north of Leh. But while the Indo-Tibetan Border Police operates north of the line the Chinese claim to be the border, they remain south of the Lungpa.
South of the Chipchap River are the Trig Heights, comprising Points 5495 and 5459.
Chinese troops frequently enter the area and in fact, they have a name for Point 5459; Manshen Hill. The area, south-east of Trig Heights, called Depsang Ridge is also contentious. Differences were found when Chinese small-scale maps were interposed on large-scaled Indian ones. (PTI)

Any maps?

Suneet · Post by **Suneet** » 07 Sep 2009 16:02

Returning to BRF after long time. I think I got my username wrong but was unable to change it in settings. moderators, sorry for the trouble, please change my username as applicable.

Requesting some good readings about history present and future...
Read the following about the Sino-India war 62

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/up ... 962war.htm

are the above descriptions accurate without ambiguities? It suggests that it was a situation mishandled by Nehru, who almost acted like a dictator and got played by west and got into the mess with china etc.....

I am seeking truth about Indian history,... as without knowing it, you can't really shape the future.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 08 Sep 2009 10:08

Merger complete

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Sep 2009 10:15

Border with China most peaceful: SM Krishna

He told correspondents here that the border with China was “one of the most peaceful boundaries that we have had.” . . . Sources in the Defence Ministry maintained that the issue was “overplayed,” and the terrain added to the problem. Furthermore, transgressions occurred because there was no mutually agreed border.

This confuses if one goes by ground realities as reported by the media!

archan · Post by **archan** » 08 Sep 2009 10:58

China bound UAE plane had large weapons cache, caught in Kolkata
Hmmm...two possibilities come to mind as first thoughts:

1) UAE wanted to send arms to Uighurs without PRC govt. knowing about it.
or
2) Arms were intended to be distributed among anti-India terrorists in J&K through a China channel.

Wonder if there could be another possibility. Anyone?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Sep 2009 11:01

archan wrote:
Hmmm...two possibilities come to mind as first thoughts:

1) UAE wanted to send arms to Uighurs without PRC govt. knowing about it.
or
2) Arms were intended to be distributed among anti-India terrorists in J&K through a China channel.

Wonder if there could be another possibility. Anyone?

It is for the NE India and Inside the India-Burma border = This is the largest demand for small arms for the last few decades