India-China News and Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 00:04

roverxie wrote:
Obviously there is a huge gap between India and China's views on the 1962 war. On India's side, China was depicted as an aggressor who betrayed India's trust and attacked India. On China's side, India, especially India's then PM Nehru, was just so greedy and naive to think that they can assume the ILLEGAL McMahon line as the India-China border and even pushed pass that line under the reckless "forward policy". Therefore I am not sure which side should be blamed.

There are several problems here.
China PRC invaded Tibet in 1950 and claimed the country. India had border with the nation of Tibet and will solve the border problem with the Tibet nation.
Chinese occupation of TIBET is ILLEGAL. No other nation in the world recognizes Chinese occupation. Chinese people are so naive to think that they can own Tibet and Tibet people.
China does not know the full borders of TIbet nation.
Last edited by svinayak on 12 Aug 2009 00:08, edited 1 time in total.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RayC » 12 Aug 2009 00:04

roverxie

I am totally amused

China won?

The WWII?

How?

kshirin
BRFite
Posts: 382
Joined: 18 Sep 2006 19:45

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby kshirin » 12 Aug 2009 00:07

Philip wrote:The Chinese capacity for mischief is unparalleled.Let's examine why this particular Chinese sh*tworm was allowed to publish his diatribe against India.
The Chinese will never allow such an article to be printed,with such potential explosive content,if it has not received sanction from the highest level.If sanction has been given,we must ask why?

At the moment,the great Chinese bubble of global leader and Asian superpower,second only to the US,was yet again punctured by its troubles in Xinjiang.The scale and intensity of the riots and anti-Han/Chinese govt. protests by the Uighars was a political earthquake of magnitude equal to 8.0+ on the Richter scale,for the Middle Kingdom mandarins.The Tibetans erupted last year just before the Olympics sverely embarassing the Chinese and the Chinese hoped that its totalitarian showpiece Olympics orchestarted like Hitler's infamous Berlin Olympics would mesmerise the world.With Taiwan still independent,Tibet and now Xinjiang exploding ,China has lost much face globally.Added to this humiliation,the fact that India has weathered the global economic strom as well as China,remains independent and emocratic,having just held the world's largest free and fair global election,outperforms China in the eyes of the world.Everyone knows that China's economic miracle has been achieved only by its musclepower,which is now being tested like never before.The recent outbreak of plague in another provicne is another public relations disaster,as the world has not forgotten China's "bird flu" epidemic,especially as "swine flu" has become a global pandemic.

China's string of pearls strategy has also had some significant hiccups.Little Sri Lanka amazingly won its war against the world's most diabolic terrorist outfit the LTTE,and promptly proceeded to cancel large arms shipments from China and Pak,sabing money and also to please India.It knows that India is just a few miles away,while China,thousands of miles away can never come to Lanka's assistance in a crisis the way India can,demonstrated by the IPKF.The Indo-Lankan joint strategy,both political and strategic has got a huge boost after the war's end,with both nations working together likemindedly.The Lankan President,has also reassured India publicly,that it will never allow its territory to be used by China against India!

In Nepal too,the Maoists have got a punch on the nose,as their attempts to gain control over the army by sacking its chief was repulsed in style.The age-old relationship between India and Nepal still stand and India is forcefully resisting-thus far with some success,the insidious sinister attempts by China to annex Nepal by proxy.In Bangladesh too,a far more pro-Indian govt. was also elected,and Indo-B"desh cooperation is gradually growing,though not as quickly as desired.In Afghanistan,the Indian role in helping restore that nation's infrastructure ahs been far more productive than the entire efforts of the US and NATO,who are clueless as to understanding the needs and mindset of the Afghan people,viewing them simply through the tinted glasses of anti-Islamist myopia.India's relations with Burma are also on the mend and have carved out for itself an acknowledgment that we have genuine interests too if Burma's foreign policy takes on an anti-Indian hue.
In science and tech.,India has also made rapid strides.India's Moon mission was received very well internationally.It's IT industry is the world's best still.Even as the lethargic Indian MOD modernises the Indian armed forces,the recent launch of India's first nuclear sub,that too openly stated to be aimed at deterring China,has received huge global praise and attention.

Therefore,China is deeply concerned that India is making much ground,plodding along like the proverbial Indian elephant,but gaining ground on China,which is showing cracks at its political seams.The growing Indo-US relationship worries China,even though Obama said that "China and the US would lead the world".Democratic,stable and militarily powerful India is China's greatest threat to its hegemony in Asia,especially as it straddles the trade routes of the IOR especially oil shipments from the Gulf.China's hysterical plea to India's neighbours to try and destroy it is also no coincidence that it comes after the IDR published an analysis that China might be tempted to attack India in the near future to bring its population.It is therefore trying very hard to coax India's S.Asian neighbours to gang up on India,use terrorism as a means of attack and to widen the cracks that divide us,rather than pour the balm of peace upon our differences as part of the family of SAARC nations.
[/size]

Also all of South Asia is slowly moving India's way -towards greater democracy, Bhutan, maldives, and Bd and Nepal and SL of course before. But my reqeust, let us not get complacent, there is a long way to go...
Last edited by Rahul M on 12 Aug 2009 00:24, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: don't change the font size.

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 00:08

你好 L,

Lalmohan wrote:nihao roverxie
thanks for the perspective. what in your opinion is the official, or shall we say 'senior' opinion in China about relations with India
rgds
L

It is their opinions that really matter! It is they who steer China's foreign policies.

Lalmohan wrote:p.s. i think admins may ask you to change your username to one more human sounding


I am really puzzled, what do you mean? could you say it in plain English? I don't think doing that would hurt India people's reputation of having very good English language skills.

regards,

Roverxie

archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6821
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby archan » 12 Aug 2009 00:13

roverxie,
What Lalmohan said was in plain English. English is a second language for most of us and we don't try to use difficult phrases only to "look good". In fact, caring about what others think isn't much of an Indian trait. :wink:
What he meant was that according to forum rules, we like users to have names that sound like normal human names. It does not have to be your real name. I will change your username to xie. If you don't like it, you are free to suggest another username.
I hope you will be a valuable contributor to this forum.

Regards
archan

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 12 Aug 2009 00:17

Roverxie, the forum rules require a plausible human name, even Lao Tsu would do! :)

I beg to differ on China winning WW2 - I think China survived the Japanese invasion still more or less intact, although severely wounded. My reading is that the KMT were incompetent and corrupt and got badly mauled by the Japanese. The Communists preferred to fight the KMT more than the Japanese, and largely withdrew from combat against the Japanese. Its frankly only overwhelming American naval power that brought Japan to its knees. Everyone else played a supporting role, including the Indian Army in Burma and the KMT armies in Yunnan.

Mao preserved his strength for when the Japanese would leave, and then he finished off the KMT, relying on Soviet backing to resist any further American 'interference' in the mainland

that said, Mao certainly built up post 1945 China into a strong power whose military ability was proven in the Korean war.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Sanku » 12 Aug 2009 00:20

xie wrote:LOL, thank you for the effort but I don't think I need another Chinese history lecture, I've read , heard, and experienced enough.


But understood nothing! Good for us.

Please don't quote entire post running into paragraphs to make one point of one line. That much you can do with limited English also yes?


xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 00:29

Acharya wrote:
roverxie wrote:
Obviously there is a huge gap between India and China's views on the 1962 war. On India's side, China was depicted as an aggressor who betrayed India's trust and attacked India. On China's side, India, especially India's then PM Nehru, was just so greedy and naive to think that they can assume the ILLEGAL McMahon line as the India-China border and even pushed pass that line under the reckless "forward policy". Therefore I am not sure which side should be blamed.


There are several problems here.
China PRC invaded Tibet in 1950 and claimed the country. India had border with the nation of Tibet and will solve the border problem with the Tibet nation.
Chinese occupation of TIBET is ILLEGAL. No other nation in the world recognizes Chinese occupation. Chinese people are so naive to think that they can own Tibet and Tibet people.
China does not know the full borders of TIbet nation.


I absolutely disagree with you on this matter. The fact is China REGAINED control over Tibet who has been an integral part of China since mid-eighteen century. Read the History of Qing Dynasty please!

"No other nation in the world recognizes Chinese occupation." I suppose you are kidding here. Even the British government who had long colonized India has officially acknowledged that Tibet is part of China, don't forget that the GoI is also one. You really need to count what nations think in the same way as you.

Plus, what you said should never had been Nehru/India's basis of false territory claim over Tibet. Just because China "invaded" Tibet in 1950 or China "didn't know" the India-Tibet border then India can send its troops to occupy the disputed and un-delineated areas? Is this what you called being "friendly" with neighbours? Does this represent India's self-claimed peaceful image? What a logic!

Always remember it was India troop who first pushed forward and even passed the illegal McMahon line.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4350
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 Aug 2009 00:37

If Tibet is China then withdraw PLA troops from Tibet.( And see what happens.)

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 00:41

Sanku wrote:
xie wrote:LOL, thank you for the effort but I don't think I need another Chinese history lecture, I've read , heard, and experienced enough.


But understood nothing! Good for us.


Oh, young man, calm down please and learn to talk in a civilized way.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Sanku » 12 Aug 2009 00:52

xie wrote:
Sanku wrote:
But understood nothing! Good for us.


Oh, young man, calm down please and learn to talk in a civilized way.


Young man? Who me? :rotfl: And thank you I know enough about Chinese ways of civility to know what exactly civility is. A week back I was in McLeod Ganj talking to the latest batch of Tibetan refugees and their description of Chinese civility.

In fact there description was not all oral, they could actually visually show some of the civilizations aspects of China.

You guys need your opium, if not the one grown in the Gangetic plains, the ones your CPC feeds to you. So yes -- China won WWII against all odd and against all enemies, and Tibet is a part of China since 100000000000 thousand years only (please be adding more 0000s if they fall less)

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 01:03

I beg to differ on China winning WW2 - I think China survived the Japanese invasion still more or less intact, although severely wounded.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Put simply, Japan picked a big fight with China, China was badly wounded. But in the end, with the help of other nations, Japan was defeated and surrendered to China. Therefore I consider it a victory of China. That's my reasoning. I know you would merely call it a survival and I am not gonna try to change your mind because I don't expect you to really understand the tremendous loss and sacrifice the Chinese soldiers and civilians had made.

My reading is that the KMT were incompetent and corrupt and got badly mauled by the Japanese.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is mostly true.

The Communists preferred to fight the KMT more than the Japanese, and largely withdrew from combat against the Japanese.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is over-simplified

Its frankly only overwhelming American naval power that brought Japan to its knees.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've always admitted in my posts that the US played an very important role in defeating Japan. But China's role has been seriously overlooked. Remember that Chinese people fighted with Japanese on 1/3 of the China land which forced Japan to deploy a significant portion of its army in China. If the Chinese people had not fighted back so fiercely, if the Chinese government had knelt down, you can imagine where the Japanese army would be sent next. Don't forget how quickly the British surrendered in Hongkong and Singapore.

Everyone else played a supporting role, including the Indian Army in Burma and the KMT armies in Yunnan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you may not know that the Chinese government also sent two of its best divisions to Burma to fight the Japanese.

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 01:17

Sanku wrote:You guys need your opium, if not the one grown in the Gangetic plains, the ones your CPC feeds to you. So yes -- China won WWII against all odd and against all enemies, and Tibet is a part of China since 100000000000 thousand years only (please be adding more 0000s if they fall less)


There is an old Chinese saying "raising your voice doesn't make you more righteous". Let's have a cool head and talk about facts.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 12 Aug 2009 01:25

As if Chinese occupation of Tibet since 18th century should make Tibet Chinese. All it means is that the occupation has been longer. Since when are occupied territories considered part of a state.

India was occupied by Britain since the 18th century. Does that make India British for ever? :roll:

derkonig
BRFite
Posts: 952
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 00:51
Location: Jeering sekular forces bhile Furiously malishing my mijjile @ Led Lips Mijjile Malish Palish Parloul

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby derkonig » 12 Aug 2009 01:41

^^^^
Mullah Vaman, I hope you forgot the /sarc tags. You expect too much.

csharma
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby csharma » 12 Aug 2009 01:41

Reactions to CNS's comments coming in. Ex AF chief and Army chief have said that there is no reason to worry too much.

China more powerful but no need to worry: Defence experts

http://www.sindhtoday.net/news/1/40298.htm


New Delhi, Aug 11 (IANS) Even as Indian Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta raised eyebrows with his comments that India cannot match China in military capability, former armed forces chiefs and defence analysts say that while Beijing was certainly more powerful, one need not be “overly concerned”.

“China is more powerful nation but it is not that our capability is what it used to be earlier. We are much more capable now. It is difficult to match force by force,” former Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major, told IANS.

The same opinion was echoed by former Indian Army chief, General V.P. Malik, who led the army during the 1999 Kargil conflict with Pakistan.

“There is a sealing now on the scale of conflict between the two countries as both are nuclear armed nations. So the maximum we would see in terms would be a threshold of a full-fledged war. But there is nothing alarming,” Malik added.

“What the navy chief has projected is that our military asymmetry to China is similar to our asymmetry vis-a-vis our economies. Instead of matching China force by force we should harness technology more innovatively. It is not alarmist at all but a prudent suggestion that money allocated is spent and spent wisely,” National Maritime Foundation director Commodore (retd.) C. Uday Bhaskar said.

Terming China one of India’s primary challenges, Mehta said at a lecture Monday that “it would be foolhardy to compare India and China as equals”.

“Whether in terms of GDP, defence spending or any other economic, social or development parameter, the gap between the two is just too wide to bridge (and getting wider by the day). In military terms, both conventional and non-conventional, we neither have the capability nor the intention to match China, force for force,” Mehta told an elite audience at the India Habitat Centre.

Earlier IAF chief Major, who retired May 31, had said that China was a bigger challenge for India as little was known about its capability.

“What I meant was while it is easy to gauge the intentions of other countries, it is slightly difficult with China because it is a closed society. Moreover quantity does not matter but capability does. We need not be that overly concerned with China. We do not have to put them on such a high pedestal,” Major added.

The Chinese armed forces overrun the Indian armed forces in sheer numbers. While India has a 1.3 million strong army, China’s is around 2 million.

However, the Chinese air force and navy have been lagging behind in terms of quality platforms and vessels. However, China has increased its defence spending exorbitantly to achieve rapid modernisation of its two forces and lately has flexing muscles to spread its influence in the South Asian and Indian Ocean Regions.

The Chinese air force is at a nascent stage but the infrastructure that it is coming up with in north-eastern region is cause for concern, say Indian military experts.

Caught unawares, the Indian Air Force has also started work to revive its advanced landing grounds and upgrade its existing runways in the north-eastern states and Ladakh region bordering China.

India recently deployed its frontline fighter jets Sukhoi-30 MKI in Tezpur in Assam. Though a symbolic induction has been done, a squadron strength has not been completed yet, according to defence ministry sources.

The Chinese navy, which is currently termed as a ‘brown water’ navy with limited reach and endurance, does not operate a single aircraft carrier. The Indian Navy, which operates one aircraft carrier, is already constructing indigenous aircraft carrier and nuclear submarine, compelling China to increase the pace of its efforts to get an aircraft carrier soon.

Yayavar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4775
Joined: 06 Jun 2008 10:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Yayavar » 12 Aug 2009 01:47

I have only heard of a few names .. one is Kublai Khan, ruler of China who was from Mongolia. Lots of Mongolian leaders were rulers of China and added territories to the Mongolian empire. Later Manchurians also did the same. Did Mongolians also capture Tibet? Will all this area finally be called Mongolia again? I'm a little confused with so much happening in history of Mongolia and its occupied countries.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16518
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Aug 2009 01:54

We need another thread for these Indo-Chinese love fests.

Can a Mod please move all these to another thread? Possible?

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby brihaspati » 12 Aug 2009 01:59

There is a difference between being anti-Chinese and anti-PRC. I do not think most of us have any quarrel with individual Chinese, or even the Chinese as a nation (by the way, there is no single ethnicity that defines a "Chinese"), but mostly with its Communist leadership and its actions that are seen as supporting Islamic terror and an attempt at territorial aggression.

As for the argument that "once Tibet was Chinese", is probably fallacious. Here the poster is choosing his time conveniently. If we go further back, and I choose my time, I will find the Chinese regimes confined to a small territory in the south-western plains - far far away from Tibet, or even Mongolia, parts of which China claims as its own. The historical Chinese empires have created their own problems in trying to create permanent borders in the "walls" - which shows that the Chinese power was quite used to much smaller territories compared to what it claims soverignity over now.

The Chinese defeating the Japanese is not militarily true. What it actually did was apparently hold down a large number of Japanese troops on the field. However the actual military reality of this has always been disputed. It is also possible, that the KMT government, notorious for its milking strategy, misrepresented its own operational effectiveness to gain more resources. Most of this resource was either diverted into the personal coffers of the KMT cliques, and the remainder used in the civil war with the communists. The Chinese fought definitely, but it is hard to distinguish how much of this was a civil war, and how much a defensive war against the Japanese. Th fact is that the "nationalists" continuiusly retreated before the Japanese, and the communists carried on a guerrila struggle from their bases in the north west. However even their movements were not very effective as we can see them trying to move in on to Manchuria only after the Japanese surrendered to the Russians, and Stalin still not having enough confodence on the CCP actually allowed the KMT to fly in and take the official surrender.

This is a grey zone. Suffering was undoubtedly there and horrendous atrocities wer committed by the Japanese. But there is now complete silence on how much atrocities went on in the civil war among the Chinese themselves. And military effectiveness of the resistance is also a matter of propaganda and glorification of the 8th route army. It is very difficult to get at the real picture. It is better for none to claim such equivocal statements as the "Chinese defeated the Japanese" or "Chinese had nothing to do with Japanese defeat". The truth is somewhere in between, but which we will only know when the one-paty dicatorship falls and a more rational and democratic regimes comes that is not scared of facing up to the past.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 12 Aug 2009 02:04

Xie

thanks again for contributing. I do appreciate the tremendous suffering that the Chinese people endured from the Japanese, however I don't think the role of China in the war was pivotal. I think China certainly soaked up the Japanese forces, atleast a million men were deployed in manchukuo and nearby areas, but for most of the time they saw little real combat and spent much of their time terrorising the population. I do know that the communists fought the Japanese too, but there was less engagement than from the KMT against Japan. it was US pressure that kept the KMT in the game, not military performance - at which the Japanese outclassed Chinese forces. Frankly if it were not for the Americans fighting the Pacific War, the Japanese could have sustained themselves in China for a very very long time.

yes i did know that 2 divisions were sent to burma and they had some success, but there was considerable political issues at stake between the US and Britain about whose colony was going to be the emergent one, which was behind that deployment. the whole ledo road business was also much more political than truly military - in my opinion.

as for Chinese claims on Tibet - again my understanding is that the Communists took a succession of territorial claims from previous dynasties, dating back essentially to the rule of Kubilai Khan - "all lands from sunrise to sunset" and ofcourse his invasion of Tibet. so i think we are not convinced about that arguement.

you have stated that the macmahon line is illegal - can you please give us some more insight into why you think so?

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4350
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 Aug 2009 02:19

Yes it is logical that China should cede control of the Chinese empire to Mongolia.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 03:11

xie wrote:

I absolutely disagree with you on this matter. The fact is China REGAINED control over Tibet who has been an integral part of China since mid-eighteen century. Read the History of Qing Dynasty please!

Please read your own history. Do you know the boundaries of Tibet nation. Even now many area of Tibet nation are within India and Nepal. PRC does not know the boundaries of Tibet nation and Tibet people and you call gentle people of Tibet as strange people. You have not regained CONTROL of Tibet yet since you do not know the boundaries of Tibet country.
I do not agree with at ALL.

"No other nation in the world recognizes Chinese occupation." I suppose you are kidding here. Even the British government who had long colonized India has officially acknowledged that Tibet is part of China, don't forget that the GoI is also one. You really need to count what nations think in the same way as you.

Read British documents. Why did they have to have separate agreement with Tibet leadership and Tibet authority for the last 200 years. That is because they recognize Tibet as a separate nation and separate country.
What ever they have made statement recently is for getting trading concession from PRC govt and getting favors now but will never remove their historical position on Tibet.
You need to find out what other nations really think about China/PRC behind your back. You are blind and you dont even see them snicker behind your back.

Plus, what you said should never had been Nehru/India's basis of false territory claim over Tibet. Just because China "invaded" Tibet in 1950 or China "didn't know" the India-Tibet border then India can send its troops to occupy the disputed and un-delineated areas? Is this what you called being "friendly" with neighbours? Does this represent India's self-claimed peaceful image? What a logic!


what do you mean "friendly" with neighbors? Tibet state and Tibet nation is India's historical neighbor and friend. PRC is not India's historical neighbor. PRC is not peaceful and the "Peaceful Rise of China" is a sham.
Just because China "invaded" Tibet in 1950 or China "didn't know" the India-Tibet border that India can help TIbet win its freedom as an independent nation.

Always remember it was India troop who first pushed forward and even passed the illegal McMahon line.

Always remember that it was PRC China which invaded Tibet first and pushed forward to the India border.

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 03:42

sanjaykumar wrote:Yes it is logical that China should cede control of the Chinese empire to Mongolia.

Please note that there is no Chinese empire at this moment, it is a republic.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13139
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suraj » 12 Aug 2009 04:05

So it is ok for the Chinese republic to claim whatever tenuous claims the erstwhile empire maintained, but any subservience on the part of the empire does not apply to the modern day Chinese republic ? How very convenient :)

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 04:36

Suraj wrote:So it is ok for the Chinese republic to claim whatever tenuous claims the erstwhile empire maintained, but any subservience on the part of the empire does not apply to the modern day Chinese republic ? How very convenient :)

Can you be more specific?

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 05:15

Please read your own history.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks, I've read enough.

Even now many area of Tibet nation are within India and Nepal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Funny, are you suggesting that China should claim these territory back from Nepal and India? Thanks for the support.

PRC does not know the boundaries of Tibet nation and Tibet people and you call gentle people of Tibet as strange people.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Strange people? where does this come from? did you invent this phrase, or please give a reference.

You have not regained CONTROL of Tibet yet since you do not know the boundaries of Tibet country.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The fact is the boundaries between India and China/Tibet were never delineated (forget about the McMahon line!). The fact is much of the land in southern Tibet were disputed but occupied by India in the 1950s.

Read British documents. Why did they have to have separate agreement with Tibet leadership and Tibet authority for the last 200 years. That is because they recognize Tibet as a separate nation and separate country.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LOL, this is because the British empire was probably the most evil nation in the globe by launching a war to protect its opium business, by colonizing India for hundreds of years, and by
trading human beings as slaves. Don't start telling me the British also had the "good" intention of helping Tibet gain freedom and independence. It is laughable that you should use this as the basis of Tibet had been an independent nation.

What ever they have made statement recently is for getting trading concession from PRC govt and getting favors now but will never remove their historical position on Tibet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
oh, do you want me to call the British and the India government hypocrite for saying something against their real will or call them coward for not dare to stand up against China?

You need to find out what other nations really think about China/PRC behind your back.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think the more important thing is what other nations talk in the face of China and what they actually do. We really can't control what people think behind the door.

Just because China "invaded" Tibet in 1950 or China "didn't know" the India-Tibet border that India can help TIbet win its freedom as an independent nation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, please! this is the lamest self-promotion I've ever heard and I have to say you are even better than the communist party. The Japanese empire used exactly the same excuse to brutally invade the most part of Asia in WWII. I doubt you know any diplomatic history between India and China during the 1950s at all.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13139
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suraj » 12 Aug 2009 05:40

xie wrote:
Suraj wrote:So it is ok for the Chinese republic to claim whatever tenuous claims the erstwhile empire maintained, but any subservience on the part of the empire does not apply to the modern day Chinese republic ? How very convenient :)

Can you be more specific?

Do you agree that Mongolia has a claim over the territory of China ?

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4441
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 12 Aug 2009 05:42

On the same lines, why shouldn't Japan have a claim on China since they too occupied it in the past?

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby brihaspati » 12 Aug 2009 05:46

Xie wrote
Please note that there is no Chinese empire at this moment, it is a republic.

But the "republic" claims territories which historical narratives claim as part of empires! Given the Chinese habit of false claims now increasingly apparent, are you sure, that even the historical claims were not propaganda?

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RamaY » 12 Aug 2009 05:47

Liu wrote:
the history is always written by the victors
Had USA been defeated in the cold war, USSR would be as lovely as Angels and USA would be as evil as Nazi now.


yup!

If our grandma had a huyi, she would be our grandpa.

andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1598
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby andy B » 12 Aug 2009 06:19

An honest question:

Does the CCP have an organised roster that organises agents to make sure that they post on every forum that discusses anything PRC around the world....ducks for cover :((

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Arun_S » 12 Aug 2009 06:29

ToI: Split India, says China think-tank
TNN 12 August 2009, 02:21am IST
|
NEW DELHI: India may have survived doomsday predictions — once a favourite pastime of the West — of its balkanization but that does not seem to
have deterred the Chinese. On Tuesday, New Delhi took exception to an article on a quasi-official Chinese website, which boasted that the “great Indian federation” was ripe for dismemberment if Beijing tried just a little.

Posted on April 8 on the website iiss.cn (International Institute for Strategic Studies), the article detailed a roadmap for breaking up India. “To split India, China can bring into its fold countries like Pakistan, Nepal and Bhutan, support Ulfa in attaining its goal for Assam’s independence, back aspirations of Indian nationalities like Tamils and Nagas, encourage Bangladesh to give a push to the independence of West Bengal and lastly recover the 90,000 sq km territory in southern Tibet,” the write-up said.

The article claimed that India as a nation never really existed in history. It was held together by “decadent” Hinduism which “encouraged caste and exploitation”.

“...China in its own interest and the progress of whole Asia, should join forces with different nationalities like Assamese, Tamils, and Kashmiris and support the latter in establishing independent nation-states of their own, out of India,” the article said.

The ardent hope has been sought to be justified by using the rhetoric of change. “Only after India has been broken up into 20-30 pieces will there be any real reform or social change in the country,” stressed the article meant for Chinese audience.

Hopes of a rebellion by Tamils may appear outlandish, but the article serves to corroborate fears in India about Beijing’s gameplan to encircle India in alliance with regimes in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal, of its support for Ulfa and other insurgent groups in northeast and its designs on Arunachal Pradesh which the Chinese insist on referring to as south Tibet. Not amused, India’s foreign ministry cautioned China, asking it to express opinions “after careful judgments based on the long-term interests of building a stable relationship”.

Seeking to hold Beijing to its official statements, an MEA spoksperson said the article “appears to be an expression of individual opinion and does not accord with the officially stated position of China on India-China relations conveyed to us on several occasions, including at the highest level, most recently by state councillor Dai Bingguo during his visit to India last week”.

MurthyB
BRFite
Posts: 704
Joined: 18 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: "Visa Officer", Indian Consulate #13,451, Khost Province, Afghanistan

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby MurthyB » 12 Aug 2009 06:30

BTW, why is there so much bellyaching w.r.t to military disparities between India and China. India cannot walk into POK because of Paki nukes. Doesn't the same apply in the India-China case, in case it's true that India is militarily weaker? All India has to do is to "revise" it's nuclear doctrine into some sort of ambigious first-use irrational escalation strategy in case portions of its terriory fall to the enemy, like the pakis. Then what guarantee do the chinks have of being able to do anything, in the face of rapid nuclear escalation?

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 06:49

Lalmohan wrote:I think China certainly soaked up the Japanese forces, atleast a million men were deployed in manchukuo and nearby areas, but for most of the time they saw little real combat and spent much of their time terrorising the population. I do know that the communists fought the Japanese too, but there was less engagement than from the KMT against Japan. it was US pressure that kept the KMT in the game, not military performance - at which the Japanese outclassed Chinese forces.

The major battles that China fighted against the Japanese were between 1937 and 1939, roughly before Hitler swamped Europe. English materials on the Internet about the China-Japan war are scarce, but you can get an overview from the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

The most notable two battles are the Battle of Shanghai in which 600,000 Chinese troops and 300000 Japanese troops were involved,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shanghai

and the Battle of Taierzhuang in which the Japanese suffered 16000 casualty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taierzhuang

Lalmohan wrote:as for Chinese claims on Tibet - again my understanding is that the Communists took a succession of territorial claims from previous dynasties, dating back essentially to the rule of Kubilai Khan - "all lands from sunrise to sunset" and ofcourse his invasion of Tibet. so i think we are not convinced about that arguement.

Actually, I think that it was not until 18 century, that Tibet officially became part of China. This was marked by the following facts:
1) The emperor appoints his special representative (驻藏大臣) to Tibet and this representative is the highest official of Tibet (but the daily affairs were still managed by Tibetan)
2) The chosen Dalai Lama and Panchan Lama (the actual leaders of Tibet) must be approved by the central government and the emperor(《钦定藏内善后章程》).

Lalmohan wrote:you have stated that the macmahon line is illegal - can you please give us some more insight into why you think so?

My reasoning was based upon the following two facts:
1)At the time the Simla Accord was signed by the British India and Tibet, Tibet was not legally an independent nation (even though the central government's control was loose at that time) therefore Tibet was not in a legal position to sign the accord.
2)The Chinese government has never admitted or signed that accord.

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 06:56

RaviBg wrote:On the same lines, why shouldn't Japan have a claim on China since they too occupied it in the past?

Hahaha, this is so funny. Please tell the Japanese people that they should have a claim on China and all other countries they had occupied during WWII. I am sure they will appreciate your good will and may even give you a medal for doing this.

P.S. Don't forget that the Japanese were defeated and driven out of China in 1945. That's the reason why they don't have a damn claim on China.
Last edited by xie on 12 Aug 2009 07:04, edited 2 times in total.

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 06:58

andy B wrote:An honest question:

Does the CCP have an organised roster that organises agents to make sure that they post on every forum that discusses anything PRC around the world....ducks for cover :((


Why are you so paranoid about CCP? I don't care about what CCP said, I only care about my findings through my own research.

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:02

Suraj wrote:Do you agree that Mongolia has a claim over the territory of China ?


Certainly no, because the Mongols were defeated and driven out of China by the Ming Dynasty in the 15th century. Man, that was almost 600 hundred years ago!

Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 12 Aug 2009 07:06

The bottom line claim by Xie is, who held territory the last holds it. Accords and agreements from past are just to bolster that claim. I can live with that. Just that things can be reversed too. Nothing is written in stone, not the current boundaries of PRC. :twisted:

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 07:06

xie wrote:
Certainly no, because the Mongols were defeated and driven out of China by the Ming Dynasty in the 15th century. Man, that was almost 600 hundred years ago!

Similarly the Chinese PRC will be driven out of Tibet by the Tibet people and their friends and make sure Tibet is free. End of the story. No more claim on Tibet


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests