India-China News and Discussion

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 12 Aug 2009 07:09

^^^ If we apply your logic then Tibet was strong enough and the chinese empire of the day didnt have enough powers to subjugate Tibet or annul the deal that Tibet signed with British

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:10

brihaspati wrote:
Xie wrote
Please note that there is no Chinese empire at this moment, it is a republic.

But the "republic" claims territories which historical narratives claim as part of empires! Given the Chinese habit of false claims now increasingly apparent, are you sure, that even the historical claims were not propaganda?

Oh, yes, this is exactly the same reasoning as the independent, democratic, and peaceful India claimed on whatever the British colonist had left, including the illegal McMahon line. Man, don't you see this is the nature of Nations, why do you think India is on a morally higher ground than China?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 07:12

xie wrote: Man, don't you see this is the nature of Nations, why do you think India is on a morally higher ground than China?

Because Chinese invaded Tibet after it was freed by British.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:13

Acharya wrote:
xie wrote:
Certainly no, because the Mongols were defeated and driven out of China by the Ming Dynasty in the 15th century. Man, that was almost 600 hundred years ago!

Similarly the Chinese PRC will be driven out of Tibet by the Tibet people and their friends and make sure Tibet is free. End of the story. No more claim on Tibet


I have to say the reality is just as cruel as like this.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:14

Acharya wrote:
xie wrote: Man, don't you see this is the nature of Nations, why do you think India is on a morally higher ground than China?

Because Chinese invaded Tibet after it was freed by British.


Oh, Jesus! British freed Tibet?!!! Please, don't insult your own intelligence any more.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Aug 2009 07:15

Can history be wrapped in 12 pages?

Thx.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 07:16

xie wrote:
Oh, Jesus! British freed Tibet?!!! Please, don't insult your own intelligence any more.

Please read your history. PRC govt was formed in Sept 1949. British left India in Aug 1947.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:22

Bade wrote:The bottom line claim by Xie is, who held territory the last holds it. Accords and agreements from past are just to bolster that claim. I can live with that. Just that things can be reversed too. Nothing is written in stone, not the current boundaries of PRC. :twisted:

I absolutely agree with you!
Who knows what may happen in the future? Even the end of the world has been predicted many times.

P.S. I deleted the sentence regarding Chinese people because I think it's off the topic and irrelevant. sorry
Last edited by xie on 12 Aug 2009 07:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 07:24

xie wrote: I am sure that as long as the Earth still exists, the Chinese people will continue to thrive.

Definitely but without Tibet.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:27

Acharya wrote:
xie wrote:
Oh, Jesus! British freed Tibet?!!! Please, don't insult your own intelligence any more.

Please read your history. PRC govt was formed in Sept 1949. British left India in Aug 1947.

Com on! Don't you know that ROC (the Republic of China) succeeded the Qing dynasty in 1912 and held up until 1949 when they fled to Taiwan? I am surprised that in this Internet era you didn't even bother to google...

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:29

Acharya wrote:
xie wrote: I am sure that as long as the Earth still exists, the Chinese people will continue to thrive.

Definitely but without Tibet.


Well, that's certainly your one-man's wishful thinking and I can do nothing to change your mind.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 12 Aug 2009 07:29

We have no issues with a thriving Chinese people. It is just that in the past we had a buffer zone of independent Tibet and not having to share a physical border with a hyperactive power. Things are different now, so we need to see that Tibet will be freed. It is in India's interest that we change the course of recent history. It is our destiny and our need. So it will be done at a time of choosing. Till then you get to keep Tibet with all its costs. And, do please build up the infrastructure on your side of Tibet. It will do us good too :mrgreen: in the future.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 07:31

xie wrote:
Com on! Don't you know that ROC (the Republic of China) succeeded the Qing dynasty in 1912 and held up until 1949 when they fled to Taiwan? I am surprised that in this Internet era you didn't even bother to google...

Let ROC come to Tibet.
Let PRC vacate Tibet.
PRC is on the ground in Tibet.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 07:32

xie wrote:
Well, that's certainly your one-man's wishful thinking and I can do nothing to change your mind.

It will be a reality and will be good if you are prepared for it mentally.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:34

Acharya wrote:
xie wrote:
Com on! Don't you know that ROC (the Republic of China) succeeded the Qing dynasty in 1912 and held up until 1949 when they fled to Taiwan? I am surprised that in this Internet era you didn't even bother to google...

Let ROC come to Tibet.
Let PRC vacate Tibet.
PRC is on the ground in Tibet.


LOL, I have to say I like your slogans. PRC or ROC is of no difference to me, as long as it's a unified and prosperous country.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:36

Acharya wrote:
xie wrote:
Well, that's certainly your one-man's wishful thinking and I can do nothing to change your mind.

It will be a reality and will be good if you are prepared for it mentally.


Hehe, thank you for the kind reminding. What do you think the Chinese government is doing by building infrastructures in Tibet?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 07:38

xie wrote:
LOL, I have to say I like your slogans. PRC or ROC is of no difference to me, as long as it's a unified and prosperous country.

I know. This shows that all the claims are just false on Tibet. It is just that PRC is the current boot on Tibet ground and hence holding ground. Please dont give any justification from history on the occupation of Tibet by PRC.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 12 Aug 2009 07:42

No wonder people make fun of these chinese drones. Somehow, someone always lands up here to propagate what has been drilled into them

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:45

Bade wrote:We have no issues with a thriving Chinese people. It is just that in the past we had a buffer zone of independent Tibet and not having to share a physical border with a hyperactive power. Things are different now, so we need to see that Tibet will be freed. It is in India's interest that we change the course of recent history. It is our destiny and our need. So it will be done at a time of choosing. Till then you get to keep Tibet with all its costs. And, do please build up the infrastructure on your side of Tibet. It will do us good too :mrgreen: in the future.


Well, I appreciate your honesty. True, having an independent Tibet as a buffer zone between India and China would be of the best interest to India, but not to China.

If you think your destiny is to have a freed Tibet, I hate to say that your destiny is doomed. Luckily and I think it is of the best interest to all Indian people that you are not the PM or Defense Minister of India

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:49

Acharya wrote:
xie wrote:
LOL, I have to say I like your slogans. PRC or ROC is of no difference to me, as long as it's a unified and prosperous country.

I know. This shows that all the claims are just false on Tibet. It is just that PRC is the current boot on Tibet ground and hence holding ground.


Seriously, what's the logic behind your statements?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 12 Aug 2009 07:50

China didn't have uninterrupted hold over tibet since the middle ages. It has often slipped out of their grasp. It wasn't even in their hands in early 19th century. Basing their claim on some 18th century occupation is laughable. They themselves weren't in full control of their country. Even Japanese were beat back not by chinese alone but because of all the other countries. If not for US dropping nuclear bombs on Japan, japanese would have been the national language of China.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 Aug 2009 07:50

Is there any point in persuasion?

When Chinese slaughter each other (a cultural characteristic)-by the millions in the Great Leap Forward, 1718 admitted state executions in 2008 (75% of the global total), what hope for civilised dialogue with Tibetans?

China's demographics, cultural characteristics, pollution levels, regional inequalities, asset price and stock market bubbles, female gender deficits, massive corruption, ethnic grievances and secessionist movements will solve Asia's problem. It is only a matter of 1 or 2 decades.

The millions living in hovels while Shanghai's world class towers remain empty speaks to the cultural characteristics mentioned above (it will spare the questions).

India has had to address some hard questions over 60 years-it is partially successful-it did not kill 60 million of its own people, in perhaps 10-12 years it will have GNP of where China is today. And no China will not keep growing at the rate it has been, your best customer is broke and likely to remain so for 15 years.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 07:51

xie wrote:
Seriously, what's the logic behind your statements?

LOL, check your own previous posts

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 07:53

RaviBg wrote:China didn't have uninterrupted hold over tibet since the middle ages. It has often slipped out of their grasp. It wasn't even in their hands in early 19th century. Basing their claim on some 18th century occupation is laughable. They themselves weren't in full control of their country. Even Japanese were beat back not by chinese alone but because of all the other countries. If not for US dropping nuclear bombs on Japan, japanese would have been the national language of China.

PRC does not even know the full territory of Tibet at present.
They dont have full control over the entire Tibet at present.

They are just calling some piece of land as Tibet province.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 12 Aug 2009 07:54

xie wrote:Well, I appreciate your honesty. True, having an independent Tibet as a buffer zone between India and China would be of the best interest to India, but not to China.

If you think your destiny is to have a freed Tibet, I hate to say that your destiny is doomed. Luckily and I think it is of the best interest to all Indian people that you are not the PM or Defense Minister of India


The best interests for India will be decided by the Indian people, yes it does not have to be in the best interests of China. Time will tell, so you can rest your case about what is in our best interests till then. What is currently the status quo is not in our or Tibet's best interest. So that has to change one way or another. Tibetans have lived for at least a few thousand years with a separate identity, what is a few decades of PRC rule. It thrives in India and will continue to do so. Take the example of Jews it took them a thousand years to return back and claim what was theirs. There is hope, despite what the PRC and its propagandists claim. Chinese can be converted despite the best efforts of PRC propaganda. :twisted: If they can be brainwashed once it can repeated the other way too, no ?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 07:57

RaviBg wrote:No wonder people make fun of these chinese drones. Somehow, someone always lands up here to propagate what has been drilled into them


It's ok to me if you make fun of me or China. But bashing your enemy (I know you like to call China as an enemy) will never make your country stronger or make you look good, nor does it helps sustain the 7-8% annual growth of India economy.

I posted here because I saw too many exaggerations and false claims. I wanted to provide views from the other side. If you can not stand this, well, you are welcome to call me drones and continue to live in your dream.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby munna » 12 Aug 2009 08:01

Acharya wrote:PRC does not even know the full territory of Tibet at present.
They dont have full control over the entire Tibet at present.
They are just calling some piece of land as Tibet province.


Excellent points! People of Tibet do not like Chinese Communist Party, the only undisputed leader of Tibetan His Holiness Dalai Lama is not sympathetic to Chinese Communist Party and despite a repressing presence of PLA Tibetans are able to take the entire Han administration to cleaners now and then. Wonder why Tibetans do not like their new shiny toys like rest of the glorious citizens?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 08:05

munna wrote:
Acharya wrote:PRC does not even know the full territory of Tibet at present.
They dont have full control over the entire Tibet at present.
They are just calling some piece of land as Tibet province.


Excellent points! People of Tibet do not like Chinese Communist Party, the only undisputed leader of Tibetan His Holiness Dalai Lama is not sympathetic to Chinese Communist Party and despite a repressing presence of PLA Tibetans are able to take the entire Han administration to cleaners now and then. Wonder why Tibetans do not like their new shiny toys like rest of the glorious citizens?

I am not talking about the people of Tibet. I am talking about the physical boundary of Tibet - Ancient Tibet map.

They have not taken full control of that entire territory and technically PRC is not in control of the Tibet province. So they cannot claim to have Tibet or have historical claim on Tibet land.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 08:08

Bade wrote:
xie wrote:Well, I appreciate your honesty. True, having an independent Tibet as a buffer zone between India and China would be of the best interest to India, but not to China.

If you think your destiny is to have a freed Tibet, I hate to say that your destiny is doomed. Luckily and I think it is of the best interest to all Indian people that you are not the PM or Defense Minister of India


The best interests for India will be decided by the Indian people, yes it does not have to be in the best interests of China. Time will tell, so you can rest your case about what is in our best interests till then. What is currently the status quo is not in our or Tibet's best interest. So that has to change one way or another. Tibetans have lived for at least a few thousand years with a separate identity, what is a few decades of PRC rule. It thrives in India and will continue to do so. Take the example of Jews it took them a thousand years to return back and claim what was theirs. There is hope, despite what the PRC and its propagandists claim. Chinese can be converted despite the best efforts of PRC propaganda. :twisted: If they can be brainwashed once it can repeated the other way too, no ?


Ok, I suppose you are at least college-educated. Then why do so many posters (including you) so hastily label anybody who is pro China as brainwashed by the PRC propaganda?

China has adopted the "Open-door" policy for over 30 years. Tens of millions Chinese people go abroad every year and there are plenty of Chinese people who are highly educated and who have the ability to make their own independent judgement regardless of the government propaganda.

I seriously start to think that the India government has done at least as good a propaganda to make so many posters here to think this way.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby munna » 12 Aug 2009 08:09

TO Acharyaji
I know that Gurudev maybe my fault of being more concise than necessary. I just meant that in addition to your points about the territorial aspects the Chinese Communist Party is yet to fully subjugate the piece of Tibet they continue to hold both politically and allegiance wise. By the way Ladakh is also known as little Tibet in the local verbiage if I am not mistaken!
Last edited by munna on 12 Aug 2009 08:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 08:13

Acharya wrote:I am not talking about the people of Tibet. I am talking about the physical boundary of Tibet - Ancient Tibet map.

They have not taken full control of that entire territory and technically PRC is not in control of the Tibet province. So they cannot claim to have Tibet or have historical claim on Tibet land.


Oh, yeah, it looks the ancient India map had a physical boundary with Tibet. It looks the after-1947 India government had a clearly delineated boundary with Tibet and had historic control over the disputed southern Tibetan area. What a lame argument!
Last edited by xie on 12 Aug 2009 08:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby shaardula » 12 Aug 2009 08:14

xie wrote:
Ok, I suppose you are at least college-educated.


hahahahahaha!!!!! rofl!! hahahahahahaha!!!!!
:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby munna » 12 Aug 2009 08:17

xie wrote:China has adopted the "Open-door" policy for over 30 years. Tens of millions Chinese people go abroad every year and there are plenty of Chinese people who are highly educated and who have the ability to make their own independent judgement regardless of the government propaganda.

I seriously start to think that the India government has done at least as good a propaganda to make so many posters here to think this way.

For record I know from my very good chinese friend that all of the foreign students have their e mail accounts under strict supervision of Chinese Communist Party spooks. I once sent the poor guy an essay on T-Square atrocities and he came running to my room all red in the face and worried. Xie nobody wants to run down China or Chinese but the repressive and totalitarian Chinese Communist Party is a different player altogether. Chinese and Indians make up for very similar people due to their traits of being hard working and generally law abiding people. Nothing on this forum is out of hatred or propaganda but views of posters are based on experiences and actual facts.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 12 Aug 2009 08:17

xie wrote:Ok, I suppose you are at least college-educated. Then why do so many posters (including you) so hastily label anybody who is pro China as brainwashed by the PRC propaganda?

China has adopted the "Open-door" policy for over 30 years. Tens of millions Chinese people go abroad every year and there are plenty of Chinese people who are highly educated and who have the ability to make their own independent judgement regardless of the government propaganda.

I seriously start to think that the India government has done at least as good a propaganda to make so many posters here to think this way.


I have met and worked with some really educated Chinese who have left China in the last 2 to 3 decades and they have nothing good to say about the PRC government themselves. But, there have been quite a few who despite their education and degrees seem brainwashed and have argued along the same lines as you have here. :)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suraj » 12 Aug 2009 08:18

So it's been established that all the 'claims' over Tibet and East Turkestan are at best selective cherrypicking of some historical claim of suzerainity. There's nothing inherently 'evil' about the McMahon Line, merely that it suits China not to agree with it.

I don't see why China bothers to make such claims as justification. Why not just say 'might is right' ? You don't have a claim on any of what you hold, other than that you currently hold it through force. Historically, China proper is just the Pearl/Yellow river delta areas, an area where the vast majority of Chinese currently live in. The western part of present day China is just occupied territory.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 08:18

shaardula wrote:
xie wrote:
Ok, I suppose you are at least college-educated.


hahahahahaha!!!!! rofl!! hahahahahahaha!!!!!
:rotfl: :rotfl:

:eek: Please, don't tell me that Bade has a Ph.D in politics or is a professor of politics. I would be so embarrassed!

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suraj » 12 Aug 2009 08:20

Indeed he does, not in politics though :)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 Aug 2009 08:20

Sigh, Xie seems to think there is some agenda against Chinese people here. I am seeing a Chinese woman who is as lovely as can be. This is not about Chinese people per se but the anachronistic political philosophy of Maoism and also nationalism (at its worst).


But not to worry the USSR was also going to bury its undisciplined free-for-all adversary.

I don't hear Stalin laughing in his grave.


I suspect you are indeed brain washed by CCP propaganda as you will never write about Mao's colossal failings (of course if you are in China it might not be good for your well being to do so). And this is in spite of a reassessment of Mao's legacy-you know in China the past is always unpredictable.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 12 Aug 2009 08:20

xie wrote:Oh, yeah, it looks the ancient India map had a physical boundary with Tibet. It looks the after-1947 India government had a clearly delineated boundary with Tibet and had historic control over the disputed southern Tibetan area. What a lame argument!


well by some accounts ancient India probably also included large parts of Xinjiang. :rotfl: Please do look up maps in wikipedia.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby munna » 12 Aug 2009 08:21

xie wrote: :eek: Please, don't tell me that Bade has a Ph.D in politics or is a professor of politics. I would be so embarrassed!

Most of the posters here are from elite institutions of the world and hold multiple degrees across a vast spectrum of academic fields. Before jumping to hasty conclusions figure out the depth of knowledge available here before choosing to run it down.


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