India-China News and Discussion

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RajeshA
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 12 Aug 2009 18:19

Amit,

what you right about humiliation being a motive is IMHO correct.

Had India made any claims on Tibet on account of Tawang and Ladakh being part of India, I guess, then China would have had a different reason for attacking India.

The reason, why I think, the whole of Western China should be brought in into the war theater is precisely that. PRC would then have learned a very valuable lesson, that teaching others lessons can go terribly wrong, very very terribly wrong. It is important to free us, Indians and Asians in general from a fear psychosis of China. Any victory or draw with China would go a long way in everybody in Asia more than willing to show the Middle Kingdom the middle finger.

India does not need any tribute from Asian countries. We have the soft power. We have a national philosophy. China however does need other countries to have some level fear of not submitting to its will. Should China lose its sheen of invincibility and impregnability, it would have a lot to lose.

A draw works in India's favor for our position in Asia and the world. A victory and magnanimity with territory for China works in China's favor and would seal India's position in Asia as a distant number 2.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 12 Aug 2009 18:25

RajeshA wrote:Amit,

what you right about humiliation being a motive is IMHO correct.

Had India made any claims on Tibet on account of Tawang and Ladakh being part of India, I guess, then China would have had a different reason for attacking India.

The reason, why I think, the whole of Western China should be brought in into the war theater is precisely that. PRC would then have learned a very valuable lesson, that teaching others lessons can go terribly wrong, very very terribly wrong. It is important to free us, Indians and Asians in general from a fear psychosis of China. Any victory or draw with China would go a long way in everybody in Asia more than willing to show the Middle Kingdom the middle finger.

India does not need any tribute from Asian countries. We have the soft power. We have a national philosophy. China however does need other countries to have some level fear of not submitting to its will. Should China lose its sheen of invincibility and impregnability, it would have a lot to lose.

A draw works in India's favor for our position in Asia and the world. A victory and magnanimity with territory for China works in China's favor and would seal India's position in Asia as a distant number 2.


Rajesh,

Your spot on. I agree with all your points.

I think in particular your last paragraph is very important and that's why I bolded it. I would humbly ask all BRFites who are interested in the subject matter of this thread to pay close attention to that para and its implications on Indian strategy.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 12 Aug 2009 18:27

azad, welcome to BR and very good post.


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 12 Aug 2009 18:35



Classic case of Good Cop, Bad Cop.

I have a feeling the CCP leadership loves to watch "C" grade Hollywood flicks in their spare time in the Forbidden City. Cops and robbers flicks must be particular favourite, particularly the 1950-60s Dick Tracy type ones. :rotfl:

It's almost laughable how with monotonous predictability such articles appear just around the time for the chai -biscuit sessions about the border dispute.

I seriously think the Chinese Mandarins think that our babus quake in their dhotis when they read such articles. :lol:

And I suspect our babus treat these talks with utmost seriousness because they are R&R** periods for them.

** Stands for Rest and Recreation. :)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby brihaspati » 12 Aug 2009 18:56

No western China is where the PLA expects the conflict. Draw it out. Activate the Spratly Island and South China Sea. Place nuke capable fleets on the Pacific with stop-overs at Japan and Taiwan. Arm Mongolia. Draw the ring further and further on both flanks towards Beijing and the eastern sea-board. It will be impossible for the PLA to fight all around. This is the greatest weakness in geo-strategy for China. Its shape has become huge bulge to the west stretching the defensive line hugely without compared to the territory. India on the other hand has very small frontal footprint. Just go on slowly prciking the exposed Chinese belly and force it further to strecth itslef towards its main assets on the Pacific sea-board.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby samuel » 12 Aug 2009 19:35

We have the assets to do all this?
We're talking about a three to five year horizon, right?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby kancha » 12 Aug 2009 19:43


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 12 Aug 2009 20:18

China's impregnability has been AFAIK, been due to its one-theater wars. There has never been a situation where multiple war fronts become active all at once.

PRC needs to be challenged more often and from multiple fronts:

1. We should practically apply China's Pakistan Doctrine to Vietnam, with the big difference, that it is with mutual respect. Vietnam should have Indian Missiles and nuclear weapons tech, possibly from us, at their disposal for a deep strike into China.

2. Somehow we should encourage anti-Chinese hostility amongst the Russians in the Far-East. They have every justification for that considering the scale of illegal immigration going on there. Russian Far East local media would be appropriate for that. Hostile propaganda from Russians would spread out Chinese forces, and may even have a negative effect on Russian stance on China at the national level.

3. We should try to give Taiwan more recognition and support. Let us increase Indo-Taiwanese cooperation in technology and business multi-fold. The Taiwanese should try to get their goods from India, outsource to India. We should be a lot more forthcoming in selling them weaponry, simply out of good business sense. We should also have a large commercial representation in Taipei. Anyway, we can demand from China to take back everything it has given to Pakistan, if it wants India to withdraw support to Taiwan. Let's not allow the Chinese to dictate on this. Taiwan should be our quid-pro-quo. We can always make the argument, that Taiwan is simply to put pressure on China to withdraw its support to Pakistan, and not because India wishes China any ill. Increase the cooperation, if China does not relent.

4. We should also do everything to encourage Japan to get rid of its post-war pacifist Constitution and start arming itself. I hope North Korea continues to be aggressive. With Japanese Self-Defense Forces India should be conducting yearly military exercises, and try to bring about a high level of coordination. A wholesome strategic cooperation with Japan is important.

5. Chinese relations with the Muslim world also need 'reform'. East Turkestan is key to that. The more trouble there is, the more acerbic would the relations be between PRC and Turkey, and Arab and Muslim street.

6. East Turkestan is in itself a major flare point. As such ETIM on the one hand, and USA- and Turkey-based Uyghur nationalists should get as much prominence and tolerance from India as possible. That makes TTP, ETIM's hosts, India's friend.

7. I would say, every Tibetan male and female in Tibet or in India or anywhere else deserves to get military training in India or elsewhere, and that too financed by the free world. This is one of India's major defenses against Chinese aggressiveness, and it is a pity that we do not use it. Have we ever had the courage to tell the Chinese, we would consider putting such curbs on the Tibetans only if PRC stops having military contacts with Pakistan? If not, why not? These Tibetans once having received training should go back to Tibet, organize themselves in groups and lie low for the day of battle.

8. In Myanmar India should go for assassinations if necessary if the junta leadership does not adopt a more India-friendly posture. Those Burmese military officers who are more India-friendly should be allowed to rise in the hierarchy. Either the junta would allow the rise of an India-friendly General, or the infighting within the military would allow the civilians to rise and take power, both consequences which will be in India's interests. Once an India-friendly government has been established, it should be convinced that Myanmar should accept a confederation with India, something on the lines of pre-1935 set up in order to ensure the stability of Myanmarese political system of fledgling democracy.

9. In Pakistan, India should pump in a lot more money into destabilization. Also at the next opportunity we should get back PoK and cutoff China from any dreams of an access route all the way to Arabian Sea, as well as hamper Chinese ability to help Pakistan in hurting India.

10. We should increase our nuclear deterrent and missile range to be able to threaten Beijing and Shanghai at will, should China cross our red-lines.

11. We should be having a Navy with nuclear submarines, which can spread all the way into the Yellow Sea and Pacific. Vietnam could allow access to Cam Ranh Bay for Indian Navy.

12. Our border defenses should be up to the mark.

13. We need USA in our camp and actively helping should any clashes flare up.

All these weak points of China would have to be either mobilized all at once or PRC's tension on these fronts should remain high during any Indo-Chinese War.

Only and I say only if India is willing to provide China with a suitable counter-offensive strategy, would China think twice of beginning a war with India. Overly appeasement will not buy us any peace with China.

Peace is what we need with China, so that the Indian Elephant can grow and grow and grow, until we consolidate our position to such an extent and take over the mantle (and the technology and markets) from America as the biggest force for freedom, to such an extent that India overtakes China also. Contrary to the predictions that in 2050 China would have an economy twice as big as India, I am of the view, that we could produce a far better economy and society than China. Our basics are clear. Chinese basics have been skipped and would return to haunt them.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 12 Aug 2009 20:41

I guess he war before 2012 is a very realistic scenario waiting to happen in 6-8 mnths now. This desire of Chinese to assert themselves comes because they have grabbed unkil's balls(in the form of treasury bills)and are now waiting to assert themselves with their greatest rival India. In the eyes of the world there are only two developing nations which are leading, i.e., India and China, China in essence, seems to suffer from an inferiority complex w.r.t India. Chinese people grudgingly accept that though India is chaotic it still is able to show of a growth rate comparable with that of China. This reality punctures CCP's strategy for its people. For the CCP, it has a hammer(absolute power) and every problem thereafter, is a nail. Like others have said opening multiple fronts would weaken the hammer and frankly, this might be the only window to open in the next fifty years to free Tibet.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby samuel » 12 Aug 2009 20:43

Our problem has never been an inability to see the solution, be creative, or know what the right thing to do is. It always has been in the actual doing that we've bonked and we have no one to blame but our own complacency in that. How can we say our basics are sound this way?
We need an objective measure of where we want to be and nose to the stone until objectives are accomplished.

We've known China to be a threat, we've known communism to be a problem and we've watched it encircle. It sure has been beyond time to give back some in kind.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby brihaspati » 12 Aug 2009 20:55

Well, even recognizing the need for strategies that I and RajeshAji have elaborated - of drawing and extending the PLA lines, is a step forward. So far, the GOI or IA even refuses to entertain such ultimate aims formally. The recent steps being taken are more of defensive nature rather than long term aggressive plans. However, the turnaround will come - and because of another direction, from the TSP situation.

I am curious about the 2012. Hopefully it is not based on the doomsdayers?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Gerard » 12 Aug 2009 20:59


Hari Seldon
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Hari Seldon » 12 Aug 2009 21:01

China in essence, seems to suffer from an inferiority complex w.r.t India. Chinese people grudgingly accept that though India is chaotic it still is able to show of a growth rate comparable with that of China. This reality punctures CCP's strategy for its people.


Not sure this is true.

Chinese people like to compare themselves with the emerged markets and the phurst world, not what they consider an overgrown slum like South Asia. News about desi economic growth rates have been carefully filtered outta chinese media which only advertise the latest shanghai stats coming outta Beijing. In fact. the first time many otherwise aware Chinese shockingly came to know about Indian economy's existence was when forbes put india at the top of asia in terms of creating millionaires and billionaires.

End of the day, PRC is quite ahead of Dilli in many hard/tangible fields and sadly, the gap only looks set to widen with each passing year.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Hari Seldon » 12 Aug 2009 21:03



Denies? Why the downhill skiing, I wonder? They could have chosen to say nothing further strengthening the image of the inscrutable Chinese, eh? Some toughnut message from Dilli seems to have penetrated the great firewall of china.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby VinodTK » 12 Aug 2009 21:28


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 12 Aug 2009 22:07

Hari Seldon wrote:
Not sure this is true.

Chinese people like to compare themselves with the emerged markets and the phurst world, not what they consider an overgrown slum like South Asia. News about desi economic growth rates have been carefully filtered outta chinese media which only advertise the latest shanghai stats coming outta Beijing. In fact. the first time many otherwise aware Chinese shockingly came to know about Indian economy's existence was when forbes put india at the top of asia in terms of creating millionaires and billionaires.

End of the day, PRC is quite ahead of Dilli in many hard/tangible fields and sadly, the gap only looks set to widen with each passing year.

Hari ji I dont intend to say that India equals China in developmental activity, what i was hinting at is that in the western world when they say developing economies the two names following the phrase would be India and China. This equal-equal comparison that is made is what rattles CCP. Western media/governments out of their own selfishness try to prop up India against China and this definitely ruffles CCP's feathers, so they would want to give a bloody nose to the west propped India and this i think this is coming. We definitely can see the progression of events in Chinese media, Indian sub forceded to surface, India breakup, Arunachal Pradesh issue. What CCP is trying to do now is to prepare grounds for justifying military action against India so that it can have its people's will flowing with its actions. Insha Allah we should be prepared to give the dragon some rasping bites

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby vasu_ray » 12 Aug 2009 22:22

today we stopped nuke testing for very many reasons, a war with China gives a perfect cover for such a thing and at the end of the day,

1) China wouldn't have captured land
2) we would have 'completed' testing without inviting sanctions, if US is concerned on this account, it would rather try stop the Chinese aggression from happening in the first place by accepting and amplifying our call of imminent hostilities with PRC, the latter loses the element of surprise

in a certain sense China losing the war means it would have lost a lot more, it would have voided all those agreements against our testing, this deters them from taking the first step

the TSP comparison is incorrect, they threaten to use them which can be escalatory while we will be testing them which reaffirms deterrence

IMHO, PRC prefers a short and swift war, and count on our economic condition to run out of steam to retake territory, so the window would be small

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby samuel » 12 Aug 2009 22:24

Hopefully 2012 isn't based on silly calculations but that's the number circulating.

We have talked about "look east" policy for a long time, so that's not fresh. We've talked a lot about countering "string of pearls," and neither is that fresh. There has been a constant awareness of extending the navy further east, and the idea that China is E1 has been argued for a while. So the awareness has been there. I am very sure the Tibet question has also been on the minds of people though one has to wonder what accepting tibet as part of china is about. Given about a half hour, and our shared history with China, most citizens can formulate aggressive goals, at least when pissed off. What could be more easier than to say, find a way to bomb Beijing, Shanghai? I am not convinced that thinking up these prospects was absent.

However, there is a whole lot of difference between talking and doing, and revisiting those goals and recounting why they are important and making sure progress is achieved on time, in good time. I can't see how we win anything without sound logistics that hasn't just been slapped together, ready to buckle and rip under stress. If a clarion call to "evict them from our sacred land" is all that it took to "throw the invaders out," we would not be having this discussion. But the things that needed to be fixed since then, have they been? Where's the damn engine? That I hope will change now.

S

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 Aug 2009 22:36

I do not agree with the civilisational war scenarios. In fact in any conflict major pressure needs to be brought to bear on one theater (preferably Aksai Chin) whilst holding against any Chinese breakthrough.

The aim is not primarily military but as I have previously stated loss of face, the demonstration to Asia that China is not necessarily the pre-eminent power for the foreseeable future. The Chinese can paradoxically tolerate such a blow from Vietnam, a small country with no claim to equivalence with China, but India's success will diminish China on the world stage.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 12 Aug 2009 22:41

This is not elections time to expect acts of bravado from the ruling combine :((, if elections were scheduled from a year now we would have seen more actions in sync with the talk. 2012 is also important because of the same reason, Chinese choosing 2011 or 2012 is good for them because governments tend to be productive during the first 6 mnths of their rule and the last 1 year of their rule.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby brihaspati » 12 Aug 2009 22:42

2012 looks very suspicious to me. I have been tracking the story build-up. China at least will not have the sure-fire caoability to win tactically within 2-year window. It needs more time to build up assuming India does not change or accelerate. But this is more the Christian hopefuls looking for Antichrist, Islamists looking for Mahdi finding a straw in the so-called Mayan prophecies. Sometimes such prohecies are self-fulfilling in the sense that it prepares a lot of people to expect something that might be on the hidden agenda. But I cannot see any of the practical factors going at a 2012 Indo-china war. Even if it happens, its outcome is not all clearly predictable in favour of China.

However, it will be good if the Chinese propagandize about this. GOI will be up against the wall and will need to act - otherwise dyansty bye-bye! That in itself would be the highest panic button to be pressed.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 12 Aug 2009 22:49

Chinese armed build up will continue, but a war with india is unlikely - as long as we maintain a strong guard. the chinese focus is on the pacific and taiwan, and the contest with the US over superpower pole position. another war with India is a distraction, but threatening india remains a valid strategy and forces our hand with defense expenditure. personally i am not against it, the showdown will be economic, the PRC have understood that the game has changed from military power to economic power in the present era (albeit backed with a big stick), any build up on our side, provides overkill against pakistan

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby vera_k » 12 Aug 2009 22:49

The dynasty is not in power, is it? A drubbing in 2012 will serve to justify a dynastic takeover from incompetent bumblers.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Aug 2009 22:57

Yet, IF China has ANY intentions, China has a rather small window to act. I would imagine, notwithstanding the 2012 predictions and stuff, that is the year when India could start fielding force multipliers large enough to make China think twice.

Having said that I feel that China's friends in the 'hood, now including SL, have to mature.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Sanku » 12 Aug 2009 23:11

brihaspati wrote:There were quite extensive cultural and commercial contacts, and therefore between traders at least, between China and India - north India, and the southern kingdoms even after Islamic disruption of the northern trade routes. The link with Bharat was disruptedonly after Islamic rule. The colonial empire had every reason not to allow relinking for their own interests.


I would like to add the use of Purbaiya's in the Opium wars, the Parsis in the Opium trade and Indian policemen in pacifying occupied China by the British as a examples of contacts. Not cultural and commercial in strict sense but I wouldnt say Indians have trouble understanding the Chinese.

I would also like to offer that we now have the added insight of Tibetan community in India on China.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 12 Aug 2009 23:15

there are ofcourse older chinese communities in india, tangra in kolkata being one of them
i have also met indian-chinese overseas, who are clearly chinese but have indian passports

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby munna » 12 Aug 2009 23:19

OT 8) but one of my bhabhi (cousin) is Chinese as my bro fell for a Chinese lady!! So Indians and Chinese are maybe not that far apart as it is made out to be.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby brihaspati » 12 Aug 2009 23:28

^^^reminds me of the Kalki's story of charming the ladies of the "Jin" - the "Jin" apparently do not believe in a "god" or "afterlife", etc - so quite close to the communist "Chin". :)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 13 Aug 2009 00:15

Xie has disappeared. It was fun when it lasted.
Could not stomach the simple logic I guess.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Muppalla » 13 Aug 2009 00:22



Read this news and also read the Navy Chief's admission about "comparitively weak India's Navy". This comparision seems to be a sarcastic one though the chief played is seriously.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby sanjaykumar » 13 Aug 2009 00:27

Xie has disappeared. It was fun when it lasted.
Could not stomach the simple logic I guess.


The seed has been implanted, I hope he doesn't end up a rabid reformist and get lined up at the Glorious Proletariat Revolutionary village self-defense committee meeting, and shot. :mrgreen:

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 13 Aug 2009 00:41

kancha wrote:Have a look at this


Kancha ji,

Please insert the right headline ("Special Frontier Force") instead of making all of us visit that site. Unless you have a preason to increase the number of hits on that web site.

Thx.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 13 Aug 2009 00:54

sanjaykumar wrote:Xie has disappeared. It was fun when it lasted.
Could not stomach the simple logic I guess.


The seed has been implanted, I hope he doesn't end up a rabid reformist and get lined up at the Glorious Proletariat Revolutionary village self-defense committee meeting, and shot. :mrgreen:


LOL, I really can't help laughing. You guys are just so funny! I didn't leave, I've been watching. I stopped talking because I don't see anything new here (except for this one) and I've achieved my goals which were:
1) to correct some factual errors in the views that many Indian posters have long made about China,
2) to present views from your enemy side, and
3) to see how the so-called Indian "elites" respond to my words.

Please continue to talk the "big talk", please continue to stir hostility and hatred among Indian people towards China, please continue to make fun of me or China, please continue to live in your wild dreams. I really enjoyed everything here and I will also invite more friends to come over and enjoy you guys' show. Don't worry, we will keep our mouth shut and just watch, it's fun!
Last edited by xie on 13 Aug 2009 01:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 13 Aug 2009 00:56

xie wrote:
LOL, I really can't help laughing. You guys are just so funny! I didn't leave, I've been watching. I stopped talking because I don't see anything new here (except for this one) and I've achieved my goals which were:
1) to correct some factual errors in the views that many Indian posters have long made about China,
2) to present views from your enemy side, and
3) to see how the so-called India "elites" respond to my words.

Oh you are still Lurking. Good for you.
Let us know if you need any more lessons and links. :)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Mahendra » 13 Aug 2009 01:14

Dear Xie

I am glad you achieved your goals, but an understanding of BRF elite is incomplete without a debate with Rahul Mehta( we call him Rahul Mao-ta), he can be found in the general discussion forum, the EVM thread is where he lurks, please give it a try, I assure you that you will not be disappointed

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 13 Aug 2009 01:15

Xie,

you don't argue with facts. Your laughing is immaterial, irrelevant.

RayC left a lot of material for you on Tibet issue. Basically he challenged you to counter the basic premise that Tibet deserves to be an independent state. Either you contribute something useful or at least you desist from useless distracting mocking.

If you want to mock others, you first need to earn yourself the right.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 13 Aug 2009 01:18

We have some more comments in other forum. Let us see what the visitor has to say.


LINK
agnivayu wrote:This is disgusting.
Burn the trees down and build roads and airbases. Arunachal Pradesh should be flooded with 50 million Indians. The racist Han Chinese is usually paranoid about large numbers of darker skinned people. They usually like to test people before a big invasion. Indians are the only race that can numerically take on the mighty Han.
They know it also, and are scared about it. I would like to see Indians flood Yunan and other Southern Chinese provinces to work in factories there.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby archan » 13 Aug 2009 01:22

xie,
In discussions like these it has to be kept in mind that this is not to increase hatred towards the people of another community. I have (and I suppose many here also do) Chinese friends and co-workers and we get along just fine. Like munna, I also have a distant relative who is Chinese and their kids speak both Hindi and Chinese (pretty cool huh).
Both Indian and Chinese people have great ancient cultures and I really don't see the need for fighting over a small piece of land when there is so much more to be gained by working together against common adversaries. Most of the angst here is against the govt. policies of PRC and I cannot say it is not justified. Heck, there is a lot of angst on this forum against the govt. of India!!
Regardless of what the common people may feel, at the official level the two countries, while not sworn enemies, are not friends either. There is a lot of mistrust and both are on their toes expecting the other to hit them anytime. Unfortunate indeed.
In sum, please do not take the disagreement with the govt. of PRC as hatred towards the Chinese people in general.

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Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Arjun » 13 Aug 2009 01:30

xie wrote:Please continue to talk the "big talk", please continue to stir hostility and hatred among Indian people towards China

That's rich...Xie, I have a question for you. Assuming you know of our historical and current problems with Pakistan and are aware of China's propping up of Pakistan in its endeavours; and based on everthing you know of how India has behaved with China, which people would in your estimation be more justified in having a grievance against the other's government?


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