India-China News and Discussion

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RajeshA
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 13 Aug 2009 01:43

I would go so far as to say, nobody here hates the Han Chinese or anybody else. It is not a question of hate.

We only discuss here the policies and psychology of Communist Party of China, and People's Liberation Army, and the threat to India that follows from that, as well as precautionary measures India needs to take to avoid falling prey to these threats.

India is a status-quoist power. If Chinese lose their lives, then it would be a consequence of PRC's own adventure.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 13 Aug 2009 01:55

Some more for the visitor
7 pages nicely written about India and China politic and economy.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php..._id=4345&page=3

Many foreign investors think that infrastructure explains the different pace of growth between China and India. No such evidence exists. In the 1980s, India started with some infrastructural advantages over China. It had a longer system of railways, for example. Although we can debate today which country is performing better, there is no doubt that China outperformed India in the 1980s. It was reforms and social investments that propelled Chinese growth, not fancy airports and skyscrapers.

One justification for building those massive infrastructure networks is to attract FDI. For years, Western economists and business analysts have chided India for not following China’s lead in this area. But that criticism puts the cart before the horse. Like infrastructure, FDI follows GDP growth rather than precedes it. In the 1980s, China received very little FDI, and yet the country grew faster and more virtuously than its later growth. FDI is a result of growth, and the first order of the policy business is how to grow the economy—not how to attract FDI. As long as India can grow in the 8 to 9 percent range, even without superior infrastructure, it can easily triple or even quadruple its FDI inflows from its current level of $7 billion a year. Growth can self-finance the infrastructure truly needed for business and economic development.

China has built critical networks, such as power stations and transportation links, but since the mid-1990s, unconstrained by public voice, media scrutiny, and private land rights, Chinese leaders have wasted massive resources on urban skyscrapers that have no economic benefits. Many of them are government buildings and are extraordinarily expensive, costing more than $100 million in some cases. And the financial costs of these projects do not even begin to approach their opportunity costs—those investments in education and health China has failed to make. That a country constructed nearly 3,000 skyscrapers in Shanghai and added 30 million illiterate Chinese during the same decade is truly remarkable.

The economic dividends of political reform don’t appear overnight, which skews the timeline and confuses the cause. But by using nearly every metric, political liberalization has spurred rather than stunted growth in both China and India.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Gerard » 13 Aug 2009 02:37


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Duangkomon » 13 Aug 2009 04:34

I caught this documentary about one of the highest selling Chinese painters which I think was meant to be a serious docu but came across quite hilarious. This sincere looking painter is painting a huge canvas in the wilderness of Tibet with a carefully selected Tibetan model striking a heroic pose. The whole thing smacked of a bizzaro world with this air of artistic reverence surrounding this soviet style socialist realism painting which looked more like socialist kitch with a heavy slather of Chinese glolious nation fantasy, all the while blissfully ignoring the grim reality of the plight of the Tibetan people.

One patron of the arts showed off her collection of paintings all rolled up in her dungeon including a painting by what she called "the sunflower painter". Looks like the new cultural revolution is happening in the dark dungeons of cashed up chicom trash.

Expect more belligerence from increasingly delusional chicoms. It is showing in their diplomatic moves which they have fine tuned to be what the Chinese posters here claim is their right and countries like Australia now openly accuse them of, brainless bullying.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 13 Aug 2009 06:40

PRC might be forced to use nukes to stop an Indian riposite in Western Tibet. No other alternatives or lose Xinjiang.

Gets very interesting. PRC in other words cant escalate to actual hostilities. Its all dragon breath no fire.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 13 Aug 2009 06:49

Acharya wrote:Some more for the visitor


Nice take.

China’s economy cools as lending slows

China’s surging economy slowed slightly in July as state-controlled banks heeded Beijing’s instructions to rein in excessive lending, with the volume of new lending dropping 77 per cent from a month earlier.

Most economic indicators however suggested a continuing strong recovery, largely as a result of government investment and state-directed lending that saw new loans nearly triple in the first seven months from the same period last year.


I am betting that China has fudged accounts. They, TOO, have a huge amount of bad loans that have not been called.

Their entire economy - IMHO - is based on fudged numbers.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 13 Aug 2009 06:57

Did anyone in their wildest dream think of the fudging that was going on in many MNCs from the west. But it happened. All the while we have suspected even worse from PRC. So it must definitely be true. :) If the system is designed to never leak out the truth even in bits and pieces, we will never know till the final day when everything breaks down, just as many empires including our own Mughals went down the toilet after building spectacular monuments for their times at the cost of more important things to maintain the empire.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 13 Aug 2009 07:15

There were plenty in the US who knew what they were doing was bad - however, they also knew (and admitted) that they would have lost if they did not swim in that river. A lot of loan officers have admitted that they knew. Besides it is a lot more easy to "know" in the west. Note that there are a ton of banks in the US that are very, very healthy - even today. For the simple reason that they did not participate in the bad practices.

Same with China, except that China lacks transparency. However, the end result will always be public. (A bad earthquake will expose bad construction practices. No need for leaks.)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby brihaspati » 13 Aug 2009 07:21

Once on a flight to Delhi the year USSR came down I came across the following in a magazine :

There was once an international nation-based competition to produce the best book on elephants. The American entry was a paperback, titled "How to make millions out of elephants" (my alternative, "How pet elephants who turn rogue lose wars"). The British entry was, "Hunting Elephants in Africa" (my alternative "How the Raj was lost through elephants"), the French entry was "How elephants make love" (my alternative, "How to hide elephants by dressing them French"), and the Israeli one was entitled "The anti-semitism of elephants" (I have no alternative).

To these I added a Soviet one - the "then" Russian entry was "Elephant in the eyes of Marxism" or "A Marxian analysis of the elephant". The Pakistani entry wold be brief "The Kaffir elephant from India". But now after the discussions here, I feel compelled to add, that the likely Chinese entry is going to be "On the elephant - the Indian running dog of imeprialism".

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Ben Thomas » 13 Aug 2009 10:04

Greetings!

While it is nearly impossible to understand the motives and thinking of Communists, in my opinion
the recent threats (of breaking India into 30 parts) has more to do with Pakistan (read Balochisthan and Gwadar)
than India - China border issues or next Dalai Lama.

Having invested heavily, China sees Gwadar as a possible and viable alternative trade route, dollar for dollar perhaps a better
bet than having to compete with India for influence in the IOR (not that they will give up IOR).

So the threat to india is: Do anything in Balochistan (with or without Unkil) and you will be fighting two wars.

My 2 cents!

Ben

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 13 Aug 2009 10:06

Nightwatch comments 8/12/09

China: Setting the record straight. China Daily and international media persist in describing Exercise Stride 2009 as the largest Chinese military exercise ever. It is not; not even close. It is the largest exercise involving large-scale troop movements across the country.

The 1996 “Exercise” opposite Taiwan was much larger and involved all services, including ballistic missile forces.

As for large scale operational movements, in 1979 the Chinese force prepared, assembled and moved to invade Vietnam was on the order of ten times larger than the 50,000 soldiers in Stride 2009.

China Daily is engaging in “puffery,” but that is usual for it. Consider, the Chinese are moving 50,000 soldiers on internal lines of communication from the coast to the western border and calling it a big event. To put that in perspective, the Indians move up to 500,000 soldiers those distances every time they get angry with Pakistan. At the end of the movement phase, the forces are ready to fight a major all-arms conventional war. They can do it in less time than the 13 days of the Chinese exercise.

Interesting.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 13 Aug 2009 10:45

A bit of reality check on what is the real face of the CCP. This one is for our Chinese guests who preach love and brotherhood while extolling the virtues of the Middle Kingdom.

A rape claim puts focus on Beijing's 'black jails'

BEIJING — The 20-year-old student spoke softly but firmly as she described how a dispute over grades led to her rape at an unofficial jail.

She had been expelled from college because of poor exam scores, so she went to the capital city to petition the Chinese government to reinstate her. Thousands of Chinese travel to Beijing every year to air complaints ignored by local authorities, ranging from real estate scams to wrongful death cases.

But shortly after the student arrived, she was picked up by police. She was delivered to a run-down hotel and dumped in a locked room filled with other detainees. There, a guard raped her.

The student's case has put a spotlight on China's "black jails," where rights groups say growing numbers of people seeking justice from the government end up. Rights groups say these petitioners are routinely chased by provincial officials or thugs-for-hire who round them up before they can reach the central government. The officials fear the complaints may cost them a promotion or a job or trigger investigations.


And more:

"Some are fitted with bars," Wang said. "Often the conditions are very poor ... there is no limit to how long you could be held. You could also be mistreated, not fed, not able to see a doctor. You could be beaten, we have recorded cases of that."

The black jails mushroomed in the capital ahead of the 2008 Olympics last year because local officials were particularly anxious about petitioners using the high-profile event to publicize their grievances, said Wang. It has continued and apparently expanded since then, she said, amid pressure from Beijing on provinces to handle grievances themselves.

The various black jails tend to hold petitioners from specific areas of the country. While the central government does not have a direct role in managing them, it has not cracked down either, despite evidence of collusion between law enforcers and the people who run the jails.

The government denies they even exist.


Do note that most of these "black jails" exist in Beijing and please I need a break when they say the government doesn't know of their existence.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 13 Aug 2009 10:52

check out Chinese history of rebellions. 42 rebels caused 19 dynasty changes.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby derkonig » 13 Aug 2009 11:02

amit wrote:Do note that most of these "black jails" exist in Beijing and please I need a break when they say the government doesn't know of their existence.


What do you mean by 'Black Jails'? This is outrageous. Surely this is vile propaganda against the wolkel's paladise. Black jails and toture happen only in CIA run facilities & Gitmo. PRC is as white as snow.

//////////////////sarc

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby ashish raval » 13 Aug 2009 13:41

I have my best friend who is chinese. It will not be flattering to say that chinese match Indians in hospitality and have found them less/not racist towards Indians compared with west. Moving on to the subject, The main reason of hatred of chinese people towards rest of the world (except probably north/south korea) is that in recent times china was exploited and looted by west and many of its prized cultural treasures and antiques plundered. Apart from it Hans were defeated time and again by mongols and Japanese in the past. So it has got a bloddy history of exploitation which makes them more suspicious of anything around them. This history has been taught in the school all along china, so it does not take a genius to realize what world view these kids will take.
However, I strongly believe that new generation of chinese, those who are in 20's have got chance to see the world due to economic freedom and dont take the view of hardline Communist Cadre who are Mao's generation and ruling elite. The article in question appears to me written by one such jingoist and not by someone who actually represents strategic interest of china. I may tell you that young chinese are more suspicious towards pakistan due to proximity of Xinjiang than India.

Certainly the liberal chinese will never be a head of communist china so we can never expect hostilities to go away as long as communists are at helm. However, an average chinese person is just a normal person who wants to live a good life. I am inclined to say a famous saying in china : A single chinese is a dragon, while a group of chinese is like a insect.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 13 Aug 2009 14:17

ashish raval wrote: Moving on to the subject, The main reason of hatred of chinese people towards rest of the world (except probably north/south korea) is that in recent times china was exploited and looted by west and many of its prized cultural treasures and antiques plundered.
>
>
However, I strongly believe that new generation of chinese, those who are in 20's have got chance to see the world due to economic freedom and dont take the view of hardline Communist Cadre who are Mao's generation and ruling elite. The article in question appears to me written by one such jingoist and not by someone who actually represents strategic interest of china. I may tell you that young chinese are more suspicious towards pakistan due to proximity of Xinjiang than India.
>
>
Certainly the liberal chinese will never be a head of communist china so we can never expect hostilities to go away as long as communists are at helm. However, an average chinese person is just a normal person who wants to live a good life. I am inclined to say a famous saying in china : A single chinese is a dragon, while a group of chinese is like a insect.



Ashish,

I agree to your post save with the bolded part. I personally also have a lot of Chinese friends both from the mainland as well as those who've been living abroad for generations. While Chinese come in all types, just as Indians do, this automatic assumption that the Chinese, especially from Mainland harbour a hatred for the rest of the world is not actually true. In fact I'd say its more of a CCP propaganda than anything else.

Ordinary Chinese are like ordinary people all over the world, too busy with daily life to really care about anything else. Having said that do note that the Chinese posters who come here and make outrageous posts hardly belong to the class of ordinary Han Chinese.

JMT

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby vina » 13 Aug 2009 15:11

Guys.. Lets face it. China is a vast dictatorship, the kind that is the wet dreams of the Karats , Yechurys and N. Rams of the world.

Why, that other tin pot dictator, Prachanda wanted India, China and Nepal to gang up and take on America!. Whatever for one might ask. But such deranged rantings about "anti imperialism" is straight out of Karat's stump speech and I am sure is standard text in JNU.

While the JNU ding dongs get increasingly irrelevant by the day, unfortunately, the Chinese people continue to live under the jack boot of the PLA and the Commie thugs.

The issue is not Tibet or XingJiang/East Turkestan , but the broader issue of freedom for the people of China. Kick the PLA out, put the commie thugs in the slammer and China will reclaim it's soul and become human and humane again. Just like "Dialectical Materialism" is NOT the soul of India, despite whatever Karat & Yechury and Co might imagine in their wet dreams, Uncle Mao's lil Red Book and the CPC tyranny is not China's soul and destiny either.

Remember Ozymandias. Empires come and go and so too will this CPC tyranny. We should create conditions on the ground for a post Commie china to emerge.

China is hemmed in from all sides. From the Pacific by Unkil via multiple proxies (Japan, SoKo, Taiwan ) and Unkil's own soft and hard power. The Russians in the north and west , there is a natural limit to their friendship and long term competition between the two is inevitable and in the south east, the Vietnams, Burmese , Indonesia etc are historically wary of Chinese domination.

The only outlet China has is the Pakis and anyways, Pakiland will self destruct and it becomes increasingly untenable to support them as the day goes by, not to mention the serious blow back in Xingiang via the Paki support to the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

China's rise will be contested in EVERY direction , North, South, East West and the ring of encirclement will get tighter if China gets threatening overly and it will get squeezed. As long as the relation is purely monetary and trade based, everyone will join the party. The moment Chinese try throwing weight around miliatrily and it goes beyond just posturing and making threatening moves and gets into active war, China will be bitch slapped brutally.

If the Chinese had any sense, they would not take the Phillipines, Vietnamese, SoKo and Japs for pushovers and get into real fights like over Spartlys. They will get a real bloody nose and unkil will be more than happy to give a limitless supply of material to the proxies (all financed via Chinese buying USD T Bonds of course! :rotfl: ) to bitch slap the Chinese and put them in place.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 13 Aug 2009 15:24

X-Posting from Future Strategic Scenarios for the Indian Subcontinent Thread

After the debacle of 1962, India changed her views on China. Gone was the India-Chin Bhai-Bhai. We started arming ourselves. A border conflict with India and loss of territory by India would bury the ruling party in Delhi for ever. So to a large extent, that would not be tolerated by any political entity in India. China would become India's enemy for all eternity. It would also push India into a very tight embrace of USA, the other power China is tussling with. It could lead India to change its policies on active support to Tibetans and Uyghurs, or a fierce policy to get back the lost territories, or a complete overhaul in India's security posture making India into an aggressive beast.

At the moment, China has India as they would like to have us and the best they can expect of us. Of course, in the long term, India would be getting its act together and could match China in infrastructure, economic growth and military even. That is a development the Chinese may not like, but not something they would go to war for.

So China would attack India only if India increases her national power through some sudden quantum leaps. A Re-annexation of PoK could be one such quantum-leap act, Support for Baluchistan could be one such act, A transformation in Myanmar in India's favor could be one such act, or even acquisition or indigenous development of some revolutionary military platform can also be such an act. It is a sudden break out by India that would be of concern in Beijing. That could cause a twitching.

Another reason for attacking India would be some hostile act wrt Tibetans, Uyghurs or some incident in IOR.

If any of the above takes place before 2012, then yes, China could attack, otherwise I doubt it.

I do not really believe that PRC could attack India simply as a diversion from its problems at home. Unlike in 1962, where we were totally unprepared, and PRC could be sure of a quick victory and later magnanimity with territory, in 2009/2012 we are prepared. So PRC cannot make any assumptions of a quick victory. Any other scenario would not be to the taste of PLA.

If PRC can be fought off to a draw even, it would be a big shock for PRC, an eventuality PRC may not fancy as the international downside for PRC would be grave. One thing India has to ensure is that PRC does not occupy any land at all, even land they may be willing to return in magnanimity, as that would be considered a PRC victory and an Indian defeat. In order to ensure that, India would have to escalate the war into territories currently occupied by PRC. We cannot fight like we did in Kargil.

A massive defense capacity by India along the Chinese border would be sufficient to avert a war with PRC in the near future.

However India would someday have to change her posture from one of status-quoist to revolutionary power. There is only so much India can do in status-quo. Someday India would have to challenge PRC for primacy too, or at least in India's near abroad.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 13 Aug 2009 16:03

vina wrote: China's rise will be contested in EVERY direction , North, South, East West and the ring of encirclement will get tighter if China gets threatening overly and it will get squeezed. As long as the relation is purely monetary and trade based, everyone will join the party. The moment Chinese try throwing weight around miliatrily and it goes beyond just posturing and making threatening moves and gets into active war, China will be bitch slapped brutally.

If the Chinese had any sense, they would not take the Phillipines, Vietnamese, SoKo and Japs for pushovers and get into real fights like over Spartlys. They will get a real bloody nose and unkil will be more than happy to give a limitless supply of material to the proxies (all financed via Chinese buying USD T Bonds of course! :rotfl: ) to bitch slap the Chinese and put them in place.


Vina boss,

Very good points.

I think, when we try to game a India-China skirmish it's useful to remember that in today's context - unlike in 1962 - it's really not going to be an isolated event. A lot of parties would get involved all covertly initially but could turn overt if it prolongs.

I don't think it serves the purpose of two major actors the US and Russia to allow China the chance to become the undisputed hegemon of Asia. Of course that's not to say that I don't think India will give China a really bloody nose in any conflict.

I can almost visualise the dilemma of the Pepuls Army of China generals as they war game.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Aug 2009 16:13

the paradigm is very different to 62. the options are:

1. nuclear war: not in either players interest over the issues at hand; no one else would want this scenario either
2. conventional war: too costly for either party, with the ever present risk of unintended escalation, or wild card entrant like Pak
3. sub-conventional war: ongoing, possibly reducing as... (see 5)
4. cold war: building up and possibly replacing sub-conventional war (large defense expenditure by both sides)
5. economic rivalry: essentially a proxy war based on benefits and not loss, i.e. who'se gdp/head will grow fastest and what economic levers and powers will that come with

my feeling is that the PRC is gearing up for 4 and 5 with the US and also with us. they remain wary of Russia, but Russia is not doing enough on 5., focusing only on resource wealth for now. Its possible that China has already written off the pakistanis as being a useful asset, and possibly the US is strong arming its way into that game. Once again, the focus returns to the great game and transoxania...

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby GuruPrabhu » 13 Aug 2009 16:59

derkonig wrote:
What do you mean by 'Black Jails'? This is outrageous. Surely this is vile propaganda against the wolkel's paladise. Black jails and toture happen only in CIA run facilities & Gitmo. PRC is as white as snow.

//////////////////sarc


You mean pule as yerrow snow ?

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 13 Aug 2009 17:08

Sorry if posted earlier:

China's red hawk aims at India

Venkatesan Vembu / DNA

Thursday, August 13, 2009 3:33 IST

Hong Kong: Who authored the controversial Chinese article that advances a strategy for 'balkanising' India and how far does it reflect the official Chinese position?

The over-the-top hawkish article, which appeared on the Chinese-language website of a strategic affairs thinktank, was attributed to 'Zhan Lüe', which is evidently a pseudonym. In Chinese, the name means 'strategy'. Over the past few months, the same author has kept up a steady stream of jingoistic and provocative articles directed at India, always writing in Chinese for domestic consumption.

For instance, in November 2008, days before the Mumbai terror attacks, 'Zhan Lüe' built up a scenario for a 'partial war' between India and China, citing Indian "provocations" and opposition to China's diversion of water resources. On other occasions, he has talked of the need to "contain" India if it "meddled with" Pakistan, a country which China considers an "all-weather" ally.

There's been some speculation that 'Zhan Lüe' is a high-level Communist Party cadre, but it's impossible to verify his identity. In the past, his articles have showcased some intimate knowledge of Chinese strategic affairs, although his latest -- on the balkanisation of India -- perhaps reflects an inadequate understanding of the capacity of the Indian polity to bring secessionist movements into the political mainstream.

The official Chinese line is to disassociate itself from any such shrill war-mongering.

"Such views reflect low political wisdom," Fudan University professor Shen Dingli told DNA. "Don't take these things seriously." Such rhetoric in the Chinese media, he added, "is wrong".


Factions within the Communist Party.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 13 Aug 2009 17:10

One point that I think is relevant in the India-China context is that China has eyes for the immensely natural resources rich Siberia and eastern Russia. Vast lands with a sparse population.

And Russia is aware of China's designs. So while the Bear is willing to sell natural resources (including fresh water) and arms of a certain vintage to the Dragon, it's not going to trust it too much.

Why is this Russian distrust relevant to India? It again boils down to preventing China from becoming the undisputed hegemonic power in Asia. Because such a China would not just stop with India, it will go after all of its neighbours for either tributes or natural resources.

Russia with it's poor demographics and vast territories is at a distinct disadvantage and this disadvantage will only grow. And hence it has a very important interest in seeing India rise as a counterpoise to China to take the Dragon's attention away from the rich lands to the north of Mongolia.

This is another factor which methinks indicates that the next war will not be fought in isolation. Other actors will join in. The Dragon is painfully aware of this.

IMVHO, JMT and other disclaimers.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 13 Aug 2009 17:12

NRao wrote:Factions within the Communist Party.


NRao ji,

Not too sure it's factional. As I posted earlier, IMVHO, it's a Good Cop, Bad Cop routine.

This always starts around the time of the border talks.

JMT

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RayC » 13 Aug 2009 17:15

Xie,

You laugh?

That's not right...
Sum Ting Wong

Here is a link for you to laugh your guts out:

Xie, HAVE FUN

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 13 Aug 2009 19:11

amit wrote:
NRao wrote:Factions within the Communist Party.


NRao ji,

Not too sure it's factional. As I posted earlier, IMVHO, it's a Good Cop, Bad Cop routine.

This always starts around the time of the border talks.

JMT


That implies that the "good" and "bad" have a dedicated game plan and are working synchronously.

I doubt that is happening. The two "cops" have some things in common - I think - and a few other things not so in common. And, of course, a few things that they oppose each other in.

Among the things they seem to oppose is how to run the economy and among others how to deal with India.
Last edited by NRao on 13 Aug 2009 19:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 13 Aug 2009 19:18

amit wrote:One point that I think is relevant in the India-China context is that China has eyes for the immensely natural resources rich Siberia and eastern Russia. Vast lands with a sparse population.

..............................................

IMVHO, JMT and other disclaimers.


True. There was proposal to populate that area with people from India too. And, then there was a Chinese Prof who actually demanded that Russia hand over the region to China because it just made sense (unused by RU, needed by China - as he put it).

That is all fine and dandy, no problems with any of that.

However, the part I am really concerned about is two fold:
1) Either Russia or the US (or EU) using India for their purposes and
2) THEN discarding India

The entire saga being political in nature, it is rather common for national entities to behave that way (India does it too), BUT, India needs to take advantage of the situation too and be prepared for the day when she will be discarded. In short do not get emotionally involved (Russia is a true friend, etc........ It is just plain simple politics).

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 13 Aug 2009 19:23

IF and when India gets self sufficient in many areas, ALL these problems will get solved. And, we will not have these threads and perhaps even BR as we see it today!!

True peace will be when Pakis and Chinese participate on BR and tell us how to grow proper backyard gardens and cook their type of food.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 13 Aug 2009 19:25

NRao wrote:True peace will be when Pakis and Chinese participate on BR and tell us how to grow proper backyard gardens and cook their type of food.

I ain't taking no advice from 'em!
Pakistani food is way too oily, and it is the Japanese who know a thing or two about gardens, not the Chinese! No Peace! :P

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 13 Aug 2009 19:29

RajeshA wrote:I ain't taking no advice from 'em!
Pakistani food is way too oily, and it is the Japanese who know a thing or two about gardens, not the Chinese! No Peace! :P


Aha but Rajesh just imagine how good a Chinese Bonsai would look in Bodhgaya! :D

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 13 Aug 2009 19:34

NRao wrote:That is all fine and dandy, no problems with any of that.

However, the part I am really concerned about is two fold:
1) Either Russia or the US (or EU) using India for their purposes and
2) THEN discarding India

The entire saga being political in nature, it is rather common for national entities to behave that way (India does it too), BUT, India needs to take advantage of the situation too and be prepared for the day when she will be discarded. In short do not get emotionally involved (Russia is a true friend, etc........ It is just plain simple politics).


Certainly NRao ji. Nobody will be helping India for charity. And the Russians sell/lease us useful toys like N-subs and state of the art fighter not out of the kindness of their hearts. Its for money and for some "strategic balance" (I think).

My point is whatever may be the motives of Russia, US, EU or whomsoever, their interests and India's would, I think coincide. That's all we need in a confrontation.

And after that if we are suckered, well then we don't deserve to be called a nation. But despite all the hair tearing that goes on, I don't think as a nation we're that naive. Of course time may prove me wrong, I know.

But right now I'm focused on the China thing. I have a feeling (as they say my antlers are tingling) that something may be brewing in Han country.

JMT, IMVHO etc

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 13 Aug 2009 19:42

amit wrote:
RajeshA wrote:I ain't taking no advice from 'em!
Pakistani food is way too oily, and it is the Japanese who know a thing or two about gardens, not the Chinese! No Peace! :P

Aha but Rajesh just imagine how good a Chinese Bonsai would look in Bodhgaya! :D

amit,
sorry, but I know of Bonsai trees from Karate Kid onlee, and Mr. Miyagi was Nipponese. Mr. Miyagi is welcome in Bodhgaya, and his trees too. :)

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 13 Aug 2009 19:50

RajeshA wrote:amit,
sorry, but I know of Bonsai trees from Karate Kid onlee, and Mr. Miyagi was Nipponese. Mr. Miyagi is welcome in Bodhgaya, and his trees too. :)


OT, but to give credit where it's due. Even though the Japanese "invented" Bonsai (legend has it some warrior found a natural Bonsai on a ledge on the side of some mountain, if I recall), the Chinese are equally good in the art of Bonsai.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Suraj » 13 Aug 2009 21:50

There's not much in the news about this, but Typhoon Morakot has triggered a political and domestic crisis in Taiwan, because of the way the current Ma Ying-jeou administration has handled it. He has come in for scathing criticism because he refused foreign help (except Chinese, who were themselves affected). Further, the damage mostly occured in South Taiwan, which is DPP (Pan Green) territory, while Ma's KMT is strong in North Taiwan/Taipei City area. This has led to charges of neglecting the south because of political compulsions, and that he refused aid to kiss up to PRC.

Here's a picture gallery from the Boston Globe. The comment list below makes interesting reading, regarding the crisis mentioned above. Offering generous help to Taiwan would be a good move on GoI's part, if they were to accept assistance.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 13 Aug 2009 22:03

human suffering is always so sad and depressing. :(

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby harbans » 13 Aug 2009 22:15

Very interesting reading the perspectives of some Chinese on this thread. However i am not disappointed much by their 'brute determines territory' or 'winner takes it all' stance, but the Indian stance that one of naivette over decades. Same with some posters here wo go ballistic just because Mr Xie puts his points honestly forward. I appreciate Archanjis good response, and we indeed must introspectively display more maturity in our dealing with an opposing POV. One need not be insulting or demand outright bans for the import of the truth this forum would like to be put forward to be understood is evident in the replies as given by Suraj for example. But that aside, i wonder if the GOI SB/ policy mandarins understand the psyche that one is dealing with when talking with the CCP representatives..or for that matter Paki ones. I think the weakness in Indian psyche is we aim to please on one hand, and go ballistic on another. However when we aim to please we do nothing but SeS types of fiascos, and when we go ballistic we dish out at 10% who's really IMHO a good bet for India. Litle objective moderation in between..

That said is the way we conduct negotiations. Any moderations between 'the aiming to please' and 'ballistic' approach are got by mandates imposed either due to opposition or the threats of 'traitor' that may tarnish reputations.

After so many pages..of this thread, i am amazed GOI never questioned Panda, on Mansarover and Kailash. What link had Mongolia, Qing or Han ever had with these places. Tibet itself till date uses devanagri and not Han. For those here who have not bothered to check the location of Mansarover and Kailash, i would request to take time off and check them. Thats a big piece of land and some major river systems originate there. And yes it is for millenia Hinduisms holiest spot...

Why not raise that as disputed territory for starters? Wy not some Junior minister raking it up on some media forum? GOI dening it. Then 3 months later another minister raising it up in a 'semi official' blog or something..so by 2010 March it's an isue thats got large publicity for starters..next step then, is the 1st controversial minister in June 2010 raising Tibet itself as an issue in an obscure inerview to an even more obscure magazine followed by silence and denial that it's not GOI policy. Then 2 months down the line again another igh up secretary raising the Tibet buffer idea in a think tank article as being the best for both India and Cihina's peaceful rise..

We have got to think and act in between the extremes of 'aiming to please' and the 'ballistic' approach..Remember the Chinese and Pakistani's have a very different background growing up than we do. We grew up in diversity and respecting differences, they did not. Hence the nature of their replies. It is very evident and does not fool anyone. The Bull approach is singularly abhorent. If Might is Right works then Satameva Jayate is flouted. Bt we all know,nature proclaims the ultimate might lies wih those that believe in SMJ..

Suraj: I was in the Morakot typhoon area, i have seen it's devastating power close up. I agree India should offer help the Taiwanese here.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RayC » 13 Aug 2009 23:31

We must be careful to differentiate the Chinese people from the Chinese CCP government.

Chinese, as individual and relatives (I have some) are good people. But is the CCP government good to their own people or to India? That is the question that should be our prime concern.

The CCP has fooled India repeatedly, starting from the Bandung days. We go overboard to accommodate them and they play ball and then they have repeatedly kicked us in the posterior, but we never learn!

The CCP Chinese govt is most wily.

I am not sure if you know, but the Deng Xiaoping’s 24 Character Strategy is an indicator of the CCP mindset, where he exhorted the Chinese to ‘keep cool headed to observe, be composed to make reaction. Stand firmly, hide our capabilities and bide our time, never to take lead, and be able to accomplish something’.

The Chinese peace homilies are backed up by the sound ‘Doctrine of Pre-emption and Surprise.’

The then PLAAF Chief of Staff, Lt Gen Zheng Shenxiahave postulated that without China adopting a pre-emptive doctrine, the chances of PLA victory are limited.

So, let us not get fooled by the scoundrels of CCP! I was aghast to see and listen to a TV interview (I don’t remember the channel) where diplomats and an academic tried to downplay the offensive ‘think tank’ article that suggested that India should be balkanised into 30 segment. Interestingly, the woman academic suggested that we should not take the issue seriously since the Chinese also criticise their own govt!! I wish I could have given her a visa on the spot and tell her I would give her a pay to live and stay in China since it is so ‘liberated’ a nation. With all due to regards to this lady, I wonder if she had tippled before the show! Quite a fool woman living in pink clouds! History seems to have no place between her two ears!! Vacuum up there? She seems to have forgotten Bandung and its effect that we face each day even today! Even as late as a few days ago, it was the temerity of the Chinese to attempt to block the ADB loan to Arunachal!! Of course, they knew that it would fail, but they made a statement and this poor old harridan failed to realise it!

I was shocked at the audacity of the article of the so called Chinese think tank that Bangladesh should attempt to encourage and gobble up West Bengal. Height of stupid day dream! Such an attempt may ensure that there is no Bangladesh at all. We may have a similar language and a culture, but that in no way means we are the same in all our perceptions!! I have interacted with Bengali Moslem at the lower levels of society and who should be the vanguard of such harebrained scheme, and they have no clue of Islam except for the stereotyped ideas which are too diluted for real action!

The fact that the Chinese govt has taken no action on the said ‘think tank’ article indicates the sinister game they are playing.

Notwithstanding the popular idea that China is united, there a 56 different minorities and they are not happy, since they are the poorest and out of the 'feel good' spectrum. China is vulnerable and it is time we divided China into 56 different segments!!

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!

It is time that this weak govt of India, girds up its loins and get cracking on the diplomatic, economic and military front, instead of bleating in the Parliament.

Men are required to face the moment and not sheep!

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Sanku » 13 Aug 2009 23:43

@above

I watched that horrible Times Now segment too. Arnab was trying to do the solo show there in midst of the mad caps. I wonder though whether that was just for show.

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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby VinodTK » 14 Aug 2009 03:28


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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 14 Aug 2009 05:03



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