Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

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RayC
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RayC »

SSridhar wrote:
RayC wrote:Thanks.

I am aware of what Public Servants can accept but I was not aware of foreign gifts.
RayC, I thought your comments wrt mangoes were in light of what happened to a certain C-130 and the evil connotations that have been associated with crates of Pakistani mangoes thereafter !
:wink:

What about the Brazilian jersey going at Rs 5 lakhs?

It is accepted as per the rules and then.......? :oops:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

The Alienated Pakistani Historian
Khursheed Kamal Aziz (1927-2009) who died on Wednesday was in the classical tradition of historians with the native instinct of a ferret and untrusting of anything that was not substantiated by written records.

The trauma that happened to KK was his alienation from the grand narrative of the Pakistan Movement. And when he realised that he had been following the context of “my country right or wrong” he produced in the early 1990s his two volumes on the lies that Pakistani history textbooks had been spreading to poison the popular mind. In the late 1990s, when the textbooks were challenged by some Pakistani academics, their doyen was KK, the alienated historian who admitted that he had ghost-written Ishtiaq Hussain Qureshi’s The Struggle for Pakistan and had slanted facts to favour the nationalist version of history. His investigation of the career of Chaudhry Rehmat Ali remains a classic, divorced from the official narrative of the man who had turned against the Quaid.

KK had 50 books to his credit, and a Sitara-e-Imtiaz that he returned because he was not treated well by the government. KK was sitting on top of a roomful of the preparatory works of the Hamoodur Rehman Report when he was unceremoniously kicked out of the Pakistan Commission for Historical and Cultural Research by General Zia and made to flee the country. One can be sure that he would have produced the book that Pakistan deserved after the debacle of East Pakistan, had he stayed on.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by arun »

Arnaud de Borchgrave in the Washington Times:
'Armageddon' alarm bell rings

Pakistan's fall to Taliban would raise U.S. risks sky-high

By Arnaud de Borchgrave | Friday, July 17, 2009

A senior adviser on South Asia to three U.S. presidents is now warning about "Armageddon in Islamabad."

At the request of President Obama, Bruce Riedel, a former CIA expert on the region, also chaired an interagency policy review on Afghanistan and nuclear Pakistan. His latest assessment says, "A jihadist victory in Pakistan, meaning the takeover of the nation by a militant Sunni movement led by the Taliban ... would create the greatest threat the United States has yet to face in its war on terror ... [and] is now a real possibility in the foreseeable future." It would bolster al Qaeda's capabilities tenfold, Mr. Riedel concludes. It would also give terrorists a nuclear capability.

Pakistan's "creation of and collusion with extremist groups has left Islamabad vulnerable to an Islamist coup," concludes Mr. Riedel, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution's Saban Center for Middle East Policy in a lengthy study in the July/August issue of the National Interest. An Islamist coup would not be possible without the collusion of at least some army units in Rawalpindi, the garrison town 20 minutes from Islamabad. ……………........

Washington Times
The 4000+ word Bruce Riedel article mentioned by de Borchgrave is available here :

Armageddon in Islamabad

Needless to add Bruce Riedel is not popular in Pakistan. S.M.Hali’s attack of Bruce Riedel datelined July 8 in The Nation:

Bruce Riedel Strikes Again
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by AmitR »

US installing radiation detectors at Pakistan ports
WASHINGTON: The United States is installing radiation detectors at Pakistani ports to check proliferation of nuclear material and weapons of mass destruction to and from the country, a top US official on nuclear security has said. "We do work with Pakistan with the Department of Homeland Security, on Secure Freight Initiative, in putting radiation detectors in their ports. One port is done. Karachi is the second port. We're negotiating that type of work," said Thomas D'Agostino, the Under-Secretary for Nuclear Security.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS ... 788173.cms
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RajeshA »

Bhima wrote:Court in Pakistan acquits Sharif
Pakistan's Supreme Court has acquitted opposition head Nawaz Sharif of hijacking charges, removing the final ban on him running for public office.
SSridhar wrote:The corollary then is that Musharraf is now acknowledged officially as a liar. This is only he beginning for him and more will come. Knowing what was coming he took refuge in the UK.
But, but what is going to happen with £1,000,000 simple but beautiful house in Number 1A Park Road, Chak Shahzad with subsidized electricity? Who is going to swim in the swimming pool? Who will take a stroll in the 5-acre garden?
Image

Miyan Musharraf is also going to be disappointing his so many fans in India? What are all his WKK fans going to do with all his Kandles? All these hopes that he will some day return to his ancestral home in Neharwali Haveli, Darya Ganj, Delhi, all dashed.
Image

Instead Musharraf goes and gets a house beside Altaf Bhai. Pakistan Zindabad!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Amidst all this tension, disappointment, anger and angst, let's have some fun from TFT
Taliban are Hindus

Daily Jang quoted ex-governor NWFP Arif Bangash as saying that India was training Hindus as Islamic scholars and then sending them into Pakistan. He said no Muslim could commit suicide bombings and, consequently, the Taliban were Hindus sent by India. {Simple circular logic onlee}

Shahrukh Khan’s marriage undone

Daily Khabrain quoted a number of prominent persons in the film industry in Pakistan as recommending death to the top Indian actor Shahrukh Khan, who had allegedly been guilty of insulting the Holy Prophet PBUH. Khan has married a Hindu girl and has children who have Hindu names. Muslims in India think he is Muslim only in name. Hindus think he is secular. Muslim clerics in India have declared Khan’s marriage invalid and his burial in a Muslim graveyard haraam.

DI Khan looking for its politicians

Jang newspapers in Dera Ismail Khan carried a public notice asking for the whereabouts of the ‘disappeared’ MNA, MPAs, local government representatives and senators belonging to DI Khan. In the talash gumshuda notice the appeal says if these gentlemen, absent since a year ago, are found anywhere they should be sent to DI Khan. :lol: The city is being slaughtered by the terrorists.

Benazir and the bomb

Columnist Hamid Mir wrote in Jang that Benazir once made him privy to the information that as prime minister she had travelled to North Korea to gain more missile technology as a result of which Dr AQ Khan was able to make his Ghauri missile. Foreign minister Aseff Ahmad Ali and foreign secretary Shaharyar Khan had tried to stop her by pleading reaction from America but she did not heed their warnings.

Nawabzada Mansur speaks!

Son of famous politician late Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan, Mansur Ahmad Khan told Nawa-e-Waqt that NATO had set up its adda from Khyber to Karachi and that America was after the uranium deposits of Dera Ghazi Khan. He said that there was no such thing as Tehreek Taliban; and foreign agents were busy trying to destroy Pakistan.

Every ‘maulvi’ wanted to marry me!

According to daily Pakistan in a recent book about an Australian lady Umme Muhammad who turned Muslim in order to look for an ideal society confessed that wherever she came across a Muslim cleric he tried to marry her. The Australian government cancelled her passport because of her meeting terrorists. She went to Indonesia where she married into the royal family of Java. Then she married the famous leader of Jamaat Islami, Abu Bakr Beshir. Then she went to Afghanistan where Osama bin Laden gave her an air conditioner. Instead of finding Muslim utopia she ended being the wife of many men. :lol:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Kakkaji »

From the 'Such Gup' section of this week's TFT. My apologies if already posted:

Losers!

Last month, our intrepid and mentally challenged agency wallahs nabbed the culprit behind the tragic Marriott bombing. A certain Qari Something, he outwitted them even in captivity. Once they began giving him the third degree, he sold them the line that he was ready to turn approver and lead them to a top Al-Qaeda operative in South Waziristan. So, off they all went, terrorist and his handler officers to the bowels of hell. The terrorist led them straight into a trap. They all got kidnapped, the terrorist ran free and the brilliant agency had to pay Rs 1.3 million in ransom to get their officers back. :lol: The demand was Rs 1.5 million but the go-betweens brought the terrorists down a notch! May God have mercy on us all, if these losers are our intelligence agents.

Addition and subtraction

Our mole reports that Gill on the Hill sent Hubby his own suggestions in the matter of Cabinet additions and subtractions. Hubby apparently rejected his suggestions, saying that “the head of the party” will decide. And that’s none other than Hubby himself.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by archan »

All Sharm-related discussion moved to the new thread. Please post there on this particular issue.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Samay »

archan wrote:All Sharm-related discussion moved to the new thread. Please post there on this particular issue.
mod-al-transfer of some posts did confused for a moment ,
btw mod-al-editing of posts should not edit what poster really wanted to say
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Samay »

RajeshA wrote: Pakistan Zindabad!
I think abusive language about bakistan is not allowed here :((
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by brihaspati »

I had raised the following question on 6th July in the "strategic scenario thread" :
Is it possible that GOI is actually moving along a trajectory as "proposed" by UK, in implementing a model of the "Irish peace accord" in Kashmir?

There is a curious but dangerous for India, theory, ‘Mutually hurting stalemate’ (MHS), proposed by William Zartman. When and why conflicting parties are amenable to resolve conflict is a basic assumption underlying the “Ripeness theory”, advocated by Zartman. Zartman contends that “Parties resolve their conflict only when they are ready to do so — when alternative, usually unilateral means of achieving a satisfactory result are blocked and the parties feel that they are in an uncomfortable and costly predicament. At that ripe moment, they grab on to proposals that usually have been in the air for a long time and that only now appear attractive.”

The concept of a ‘ripe moment’ centres on the parties' perception of a ‘mutually hurting stalemate’ (MHS), optimally associated with an impending, past or recently avoided catastrophe. Zartman has formulated six propositions delineating important elements and components of MHS model. They are:

Proposition 1. Ripeness is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the initiation of negotiations, bilateral or mediated.

Proposition 2. (Definitional): If the (two) parties to a conflict (a) perceive themselves to be in a hurting stalemate and (b) perceive the possibility of a negotiated solution (a way out), the conflict is ripe for resolution (i.e., for negotiations toward resolution to begin).

Proposition 3. An MHS contains objective and subjective elements, of which only the latter are necessary and sufficient to its existence.

Proposition 4. If the parties’ subjective expressions of pain, impasse, and inability to bear the costs of further escalation, related to objective evidence of stalemate, data on numbers and nature of casualties and material costs, and/or other such indicators of an MHS can be found, along with expressions of a sense of a way out, ripeness exists.

Proposition 5. (a) Once ripeness has been established, specific tactics by mediators can help seize the ripe moment and turn it into negotiations; (b) If only objective elements of ripeness exist, specific tactics by mediators can bring the conflicting parties to feel/understand the pain of their mutual stalemate and turn to negotiations.

Proposition 6. The perception of a mutually enticing opportunity is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for the continuation of negotiations to the successful conclusion of a conflict.

MHS needs to address/contain resistant reaction, whether stemming from perseverance, agent escalation, true belief, or ideological cultures and back it up with Mutually Enticing Opportunities (MEOs). The negotiations pushed by MHS are likely to be unstable unless they are supported by the prospects for a more attractive future to pull the parties out of the conflict. This could be engineered by a “formula for settlement and prospects of reconciliation that negotiating (may) design during negotiations.”

The solution for the Irish "problem" was proposed along this way. There are intellectuals on both sides of the Atlantic as well as in India, like Sumantra Bose, who could be the fronts for broaching such ideas about Kashmir.
Here I am quoting parts of that post. Please try comparing with the implications in the "joint statement" and the "clarification".

Irish model : Democratic Institutions in N Ireland

A 108-member Assembly elected by proportional representation and a 14-member executive body in Northern Ireland in which both Catholic and Protestant political representatives sit together in government. This is only the second time such power-sharing has occurred since 1920 (the first was the short-lived Sunningdale Agreement of 1973-74).

The Assembly is capable of exercising executive and legislative authority, in the areas of finance, education, environment, health, social services, economic development and agriculture and is subject to safeguards to protect the rights and interests of both communities. The Agreement also established a consultative Civic Forum to support the work of the Assembly. The power-sharing executive body of ten ministers drawn from four political parties plus the First and Deputy First Ministers, is the effective government.

Following a referendum, the Northern Ireland Assembly was constituted under the Northern Ireland (Elections) Act 1998. On 25 June 1998, 108 members were elected to the new Assembly. None of the UUP candidates who opposed the Good Friday Agreement was elected. Moreover, the DUP and other anti-agreement parties failed to secure the 30 seats necessary to impede the work of the Assembly. However, the Northern Ireland government was not constituted until a year later, and brought to a standstill over the issue of IRA decommissioning.

Kashmir model: Institutionalising Intra-Kashmiri dialogue/Devising new structures in reconstituted Kashmir

Institutionalisation of intra-Kashmiri dialogue within IHK and AJK and between the Indian and Pakistani zones of Kashmir. Drawing up new structures and arrangements that would give way to the existing political, administrative and constitutional structures as a result of permanent solution of Kashmir.

I would guess that the UK would construct demographic homogeneity within POK, completely suppressing the Shia sectarian and other ethnic opposition to greater control by GOTSP, and highlight demographic fractures within Indian side of Kashmir.

Irish model: North-South Ministerial Council

The Belfast Agreement established a North-South Ministerial Council that deals with the totality of relationships within the island of Ireland. The Council was established to bring together those with executive responsibilities in Northern Ireland and the Irish Government, to develop consultation, co-operation and action within the island of Ireland. The Council meets in plenary format twice a year, in specific sectoral formats on a regular basis, and in an appropriate format to consider institutional or cross-sectoral matters and to resolve disagreement. All Council decisions to be by agreement between the two sides. Areas for North-South co-operation include agriculture, education, transport, environment, waterways, social security/social welfare, tourism, inland fisheries and health.

Kashmir model: Cross-border cooperation/Softening boundaries & Sovereignty in Kashmir

This means softening of boundaries across the reconstituted zones of Kashmir and gradually developing economic cooperation on transport, tourism, trade and commerce, environment, agriculture, cultural cooperation and management of water resources. This require a cross-border structure and as per the Irish model (North–South Ministerial Council) a Srinagar-Muzaffarabad Ministerial Council for Cooperation. The sop that can be held for GOI, or more correctly a sop for the Indian commons by the GOI and NC, the concoction that in return for gradual cooperation between the two parts of Kashmir giving Indian Kashmir an indirect, limited say in the affairs of POK.

There are other points and refernces mentioned in that post. Anyone aware of the GFD agreement, would know that "secretarial" discussions, backdoor "diplomacy", and then "joint statements/moves" by the "legislative heads" were early signs of the process being initiated. Incidentally, it was another Clinton who was a key "go-between" - maybe this particular one has taken tips off the hubby.

It should be obvious why any such initiative is to the advantage of TSP and its backers. As they are perfectly aware that this is a completely different ball-game compared to the Irish situation. There are similarities but not the overt ones, and TSP+UK+USA do not see the game that way.

All those surprised, disheartened and depressed at the "Egyptgate" behaviour of the Indian side led by Honbl. MMSji should look back at their own words. You can be disappointed only if you have blind faith and expectation on someone or something. They are doing what they have all along planned to do, depending on what they perceive is the reality and the best deal for themselves, their organization and the constituency they represent. They are entirely consistent with their background, and we should not blame them for what is their natural tendency to do under given circumstances.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Satya_anveshi »

OK guys...obviously a lot of us didn't like what we have seen. Although I tried my best to see it from non-obvious perspective yesterday (which I am sure are very very relevant) albeit in a disjointed manner.

Now, any agreement, if it too good to be true, then other party should also be equally worried. What's pakistan's gain?

Are any of the problems that are *threatening* Pakistan getting solved because of this statement:

1. the impending crisis involving balance of power related to amendments to constitution; This is supposed to be a HUGE fiasco in the making

2. The crisis involving IDP registration. Not all that is in media is correct. One incident involving IDP and all of them will stay put in camps and none will go back. They need a reason now NOT to go back as they at least they get food 2 times in the camps.

3. 4-5 places there are on-going operations and none of the top leaders of Taliban are caught.

4. The situation in s.pakjab is getting worse

5. All harried rats stand neglected; did you guys note what all the omar farooq's, yasin maliks, et al have been saying before the meet.

6. Now that Nawaz has been acquitted, will he bring Musharraf back to Pakistan. Remember Musharraf *left* pakistan for good about a month ago :lol: People's anger with Army is at historic high. Even if there are legitimate reasons, Army cannot come back on streets now :lol:

Which of the above problems are going to be addressed. I think, the strategy was to deprive Pakistan of political space at a venue like NAM and also that the old hag was visiting, prop up Gilani, and kind of stay put with current things.

If we agree with the above, what is the *material* damage to India? What is the *material* gain to Pakistan?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

what is the *material* damage to India?
The money spent on purchasing tea and biscuits? I'm sure that can be minimized if Tata is asked to donate same.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Satya_anveshi »

IMO all the monies spent on chai-biskoot are considered *aid* and should have stringent conditions to go along with it :D
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Vivek_A »

Let me summarize Duffer Hilarious: MMS was wrong to talk about terrorism....bad MMS...bad bad bad...only way for him to make amends is to give TSP what it wants on sir creek, siachen and the IWT...

Deal or no deal?
Saturday, July 18, 2009
Zafar Hilaly

It takes courage to be absolutely shameless; and Indian and Pakistani leaders have it in spades. The abandon with which they have gone about pauperising their people by setting up vast edifices stuffed with soldiers and weapons, including those of mass destruction, without achieving an iota of extra security, truly beggars the imagination. But if ever there was a neat con job, that is, to make your adversary believe one thing while doing the opposite the Sharm al Shaikh joint statement along with the comments to the press by the prime minister of India was one. But what makes it a classic of its genre was that in the process Manmohan Singh fooled his own public, that of Pakistan and perhaps himself too. In many respects it was similar to the Simla Agreement where Bhutto in effect bilateralised the Kashmir dispute (Article 6) claiming all the time that he had not by alluding to a per forma reference to the UN Charter in that Simla Agreement to which the Indians could hardly object.

In comments to the press following the meeting in Egypt, Manmohan Singh said: "So long as Pakistani territory continues to be used for perpetrating acts of terrorism directed against India, I think the dialogue process even if it starts cannot move forward." And lest the attending journalists were deaf or slow to comprehend he added: "The composite dialogue cannot even begin unless and until terrorist heads which shook Mumbai are properly accounted for and perpetrators of these heinous crimes are brought to book".

Who, in his senses, would "start" a process which he does not want to move forward; or "start" a process and then aver in the same breadth that the process cannot "begin"; or at the same time that he has extracted a promise to exchange "real time intelligence" in the pursuit of terrorists, would imply only moments later, in so many words, that because he does not believe that Pakistan will deliver the earlier policy of a stand off will continue. One would have imagined that 62 years is long enough to learn the lesson that pressure of such a crude kind does not work.

For those, like the undersigned, who had welcomed the joint statement, and credited the Indian prime minister for his tactic of stroking, rather than striking Pakistan, in the hope of better cooperation and, more importantly, in strengthening the hands of a weak, and getting weaker, regime that nevertheless has its heart in the right place MMS's remarks to the press were a body blow. India could have as easily manifested India's concerns in private and on the conference table rather than trash the agreement reached only moments ago as publicly as he did. While it is generally true as Alice said "sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me", in terms of the India-Pakistan equation the opposite is often truer.

About the only way MMS can make amends is by forging ahead with agreements with Pakistan on such matters as Sir Creek, Siachen and water issues even while he continues to put pressure re Mumbai. The agreements are not by themselves (barring water issues) of any intrinsic importance but the sea change that it would bring about in the atmospherics would be transformational. Moreover it would come at precisely the right psychological moment. Today's Pakistan is not Musharraf's Pakistan. Today Pakistanis regards the Taliban and terrorism as a bigger threat than that posed by India. Pakistanis want to catch those slaughtering Indians in Mumbai as much as those beheading Pakistanis in Swat because Pakistanis consider them as part of the same coterie of fanatics and bigots that pose an existential threat to Pakistan. They wish to do so for their own security rather than that of India. Hence it is a self-defeating task for India to continue to deflect our attention from fighting the Taliban by maintaining a drumbeat of threats either real, in the form of the Indian army deployed on the borders, or in the shape of hostile propaganda. If India truly wants Pakistan to prevail it must free our hands to fight the Taliban with all our might. In any case, Pakistan is doing its best to apprehend the Mumbai terrorists. Six are under arrest, nine others have been identified and are being pursued and if there is not yet sufficient court stature evidence to have Hafiz Saeed put away, there soon will be. Terrorists, like addicts, cannot stay away from crime and hence from the fate that awaits them.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by CalvinH »

Kakkaji wrote:From the 'Such Gup' section of this week's TFT. My apologies if already posted:

Losers!

Last month, our intrepid and mentally challenged agency wallahs nabbed the culprit behind the tragic Marriott bombing. A certain Qari Something, he outwitted them even in captivity. Once they began giving him the third degree, he sold them the line that he was ready to turn approver and lead them to a top Al-Qaeda operative in South Waziristan. So, off they all went, terrorist and his handler officers to the bowels of hell. The terrorist led them straight into a trap. They all got kidnapped, the terrorist ran free and the brilliant agency had to pay Rs 1.3 million in ransom to get their officers back. :lol: The demand was Rs 1.5 million but the go-betweens brought the terrorists down a notch! May God have mercy on us all, if these losers are our intelligence agents.
I got to give it to pakis. They know how to make money.

So you catch a bad guy (you know bad guys well, they are your friends), then make people believe that you went out with him for a search, fake your kidnapping, get real money to get yourself out and wow! you are all richer by few millions....while massa keeps footing the bill on WOT.

Sounds like a great scheme to me to loot US taxpayers money....
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Vivek_A »

Video

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/07/ ... eaway.html

A Militant Hideaway

As war rages in the north, militants are finding refuge in Karachi. (Produced in association with Frontline World)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by anupmisra »

We suck...but we are OK
A non-towel, towel.

ANALYSIS: The Pakistani Purpose
Salman Tarik Kureshi
However a state may have chanced to appear on a map or for whatever reason it may have been founded, once this has happened, its purpose thereafter is nothing more and nothing less than promoting the wellbeing of its citizens
Doom and national extinction are forecast.
Well, doom and political break-up are among the very real perils that the failing state of Pakistan is confronting. But, let us be clear, our membership in the excusive circle of failing states has everything to do with the inability of our military, political and economic elites to provide basic governance, some kind of economic vision, valid education or social services, justice, democracy, rule of law or simple basic law and order. It has nothing to do with the nefarious designs of external map-makers.
On the one side are right-wing medievalists, who hold that Pakistan is a religiously unified entity (or, at least, will be once they eliminate all those untidy minorities, heterodox sects, points of view, and every kind of regional or national cultural expression) whose purpose is to embody and project a particular political ideology. This is seen as the core raison d’etre of the 170 million men, women and children who call this land their home. This ideological unity of purpose is inevitably perceived as a Big Threat by (get this!) every other nation in which the six billion members of the human race live. Therefore, the entire six billion are against us and all are conspiring to dismember and destroy Pakistan — led, of course, by our major ally and benefactor, the USA.
But those (Sindhis) across the border in India include such prominent personages as the mega-billionaire Ambani brothers and Leader of the Opposition Lal Krishna Advani, who was moreover born in what is now Pakistan.
As for the largest ethnic identity in Pakistan, the Punjabi, this is the one said to be most identified with ideas of Pakistani nationhood. However, this was the most violently divided of all linguistic groups at the time of Independence.
Pakistan, then, is an ethnically multiple state entity. :roll: And this, according to many of our left-wing friends, is the source of Pakistan’s instability — an instability that is being exploited to sere the nefarious designs of (get this one!) the very same bete noir as the religious right, the USA.
The point is that India is even more of a multi-ethnic state, not to mention China, Indonesia, Nigeria, Canada, the Russian Federation and others. Are they also unstable members of the Failed States Club? Hain, Jee?
What is not being appreciated is that all states are, in one sense or the other, ‘artificial’ entities. :D Let’s face it, there are no borders marked on the ground. The earth on both sides is the same :lol: and usually the people as well. Where, in ethnic or historic terms, does the USA end and Canada begin? Or France and Belgium? Or Germany, Switzerland and Austria? There are also states that have been consciously ‘founded’ at a moment in time. Such, for example, would include Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA, Lebanon, Israel, Kenya and some others.
The point is that however a state may have chanced to appear on a map or for whatever reason it may have been founded, once this has happened, its purpose thereafter is nothing more and nothing less than promoting the wellbeing of its citizens.

Once national independence was achieved, the ‘maqsad’ of Pakistan became the greater good of the greatest number of its citizens. It’s as simple as that.
And, in case you were wondering about the background of this earth-shattering writer:
The writer is a marketing consultant based in Karachi. He is also a poet
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

Pakistan madrassa reforms in tatters
The government has virtually shelved a US-aided, multi-million dollar plan to reform madrassas considered nurseries of terrorism, as it has failed to garner the support of clerics.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by anupmisra »

Why pakjab can not be a terrorist incubator?
Or, the day when I stopped thinking and started to smoke some real potent stuff.

COMMENT: Talibanisation of Punjab

So far so good.
Southern Punjab, from Jhang to Bahawalpur, is riddled with madrassas and both the banned outfits — Lashkar- Tayba and Lashkar-e Jhangvi — enjoy considerable influence in the area. In fact, by one estimate, Bahawalpur is reputed to have the largest number of madrassas in the country. It is a well known fact that there are a few thousand Punjabi Taliban in Waziristan; some trained, some under training.
OK, so we have heard the downside first (as in every good, logically constructed argument)
We are also aware that the only person apprehended by Indian security forces for the Mumbai attack hailed from this region and can conclude therefrom that, at least, some others also did. We are also aware that during the period of Maulana Aziz’s incarceration — the one of Lal Masjid fame — his wife made numerous visits to various cities of Southern Punjab, was given a resounding welcome at each, stayed a few days on each visit and addressed a number of gatherings.
Yes, yes, go on....
The vast majority of students at Lal Masjid, both male and female, were also from Southern Punjab.
OK...so where's the disagreement? Oh, its coming.....
Let us be clear about one thing; there is not going to be an armed insurrection in any part of Punjab. First, the number of religious extremists is still an infinitesimal portion of the huge population of Punjab; even for the Seraiki belt, they are a very small percentage. Second, for any insurrection to have a chance of success, the local terrain has to be of the kind that will support guerrilla warfare. There is no such region in Punjab that could support guerrilla warfare. Nor is it possible to have schools for militant training for the subverted youth in this area.
Wha...!! :shock: Where's the connect? Oh, one more thing:
Historically, the belt of Sargodha, Sheikhupura and the surrounding area has seen insurrections against the British, most notably the one led by Sultana Daku. Since they enjoyed popular support, they succeeded for a limited period. However, since the terrain was not sufficiently supportive of guerrilla warfare, none of them lasted very long. This is one explanation for why subverted children are sneaked into Waziristan for militant training before being assigned missions in the rest of the country as well as India.
I give up. What? You have one more "conclusion" to make?
The fact that there can be no armed insurrection in Punjab does not diminish the threat that a few corrupted minds can pose to the vast majority of the innocent; as has been proven time and again.
Hallelujah! The paki mind! Must be all that dry heat.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by putnanja »

Pak put LeT role on record, helped India ease on talks
A clear, written admission by Pakistan for the first time in an official document, a 36-page dossier, handed over to India that Lashkar-e-Toiba carried out the Mumbai attacks, terming Lashkar operations chief Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi as the “mastermind” and admitting the Pakistan nationality of Ajmal Amir Kasab along with some others is said to have prompted India to be more accommodating with Pakistan at Sharm-el-Sheikh.
...
In this context, officials said, India did not want to be rigid in the conversation with Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani while at the same time it did not want to be drawn into a firm commitment to resume the composite dialogue which the Pak delegation persisted with in light of the progress it had reported in the investigations.


...
SP sees US hand in PM’s ‘climbdown’
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

Useful Fictions and Big Whoppers
One of my shoe box favorites concerns Shultz’s efforts to negotiate an agreement with the Kremlin on Afghanistan. One of the agreement’s provisions would obligate Pakistan to “prevent within its territory the training, equipping, financing and recruiting of mercenaries from whatever origin for the purpose of hostile activities” – pledges Pakistan and the United States were not inclined to honor. Indeed, Pakistan was doing precisely what the proposed agreement would prohibit. According to Shultz,

“After some discussion through our embassies, two phone calls were arranged. First, Pakistani Prime Minister Junejo called me to urge us to sign the accords and to pledge that regardless of the language the Pakistanis would agree to, they would continue to provide a home to the mujaheddin and be a place through which U.S. arms and other supplies would flow to them. Several hours later, President Zia, the truly authoritative figure in Pakistan, called President Reagan with the same message. I heard the President ask Zia how he would handle the fact that they would be violating their agreement. Zia replied that they would ‘just lie about it. We’ve been denying our activities there for eight years.’ Then the president recounted, Zia told him that ‘Muslims have the right to lie in a good cause.’”
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Najam Sethi on why the madrasseh reforms failed
Reason? Refusal on the part of the clergy to cooperate.

There are a number of reasons for the clergy’s refusal: (1) the clergy is “empowered” in all sorts of ways and doesn’t need money; (2) religious leaders are aggressive in their challenge to the state and affect madrassa thinking; (3) madrassas think that since the funding is American, the intent could be to close them down; (4) the writ of the state is growing weaker by the day and the people are turning increasingly to the madrassas — and thus empowering them — for help in solving their problems.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RayC »

A clear, written admission by Pakistan for the first time in an official document, a 36-page dossier, handed over to India that Lashkar-e-Toiba carried out the Mumbai attacks, terming Lashkar operations chief Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi as the “mastermind” and admitting the Pakistan nationality of Ajmal Amir Kasab along with some others is said to have prompted India to be more accommodating with Pakistan at Sharm-el-Sheikh.
Where is that document and why was the Indian public not taken into confidence?

OK, it is sensitive and cannot be flashed around.

Fine.

If they can leak it now, to save their bacon, they could have leaked it then too! And then act innocent, with the same sad and 'humble' face as MMS in the LS debate!

All this is a paid up media spin!

It surprises me that MMS is so pliable, meek and apparently scared to face life! He is a follower of Guru Gobind Singh, right?! Why can he not follow the Guru?

Maybe someone should remind of This
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Hiten »


In Pakistan, Skardu is suffering backlash of Taliban violence

Skardu not considered part of POK/PAK? :(
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Hiten wrote:Skardu not considered part of POK/PAK? :(
No, Pakistan does not consider Skardu as part of PoK. It is considered as part of Northern Areas. That is a distinction it makes, not us.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by ramana »

Nightwatch, 17 july 2009
Pakistan: Politics. In a four-hour meeting held in Raiwind today, President Zardari and Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) chief Nawaz Sharif failed to agree on a timetable to repeal the 17th Amendment and implement the Charter of Democracy from 2008, a key demand by Sharif without which he is not ready to make any concessions to the government.

The 17th Amendment was passed by the National Assembly (parliament) in 2003 at the request of General Musharaf to create a presidential system of government; subordinate the prime minister and National Assembly to the President and allow Musharraf to serve as Chief of Army Staff as well as President -- a prima facie violation of a separate constitutional provision which Musharraf’s National Assembly conveniently side-stepped. Repeal of this amendment was central to the 11-point agreement between Zardari’s Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) and Sharif’s PML-N that produced the coalition that trounced the pro-Musharraf party in national elections in 2008.

Zardari, as PPP leader, continues to renege on the agreement. Repeal of that amendment would relegate the presidency to a figurehead once again, as in India and like the monarchy in the UK and Malaysia. The underlying idea of the amendment was to legitimate Musharraf’s unconstitutional overthrow of the government in 1999.

The Supreme Court, in a unanimous decision today, acquitted Nawaz Sharif of hijacking charges stemming from Musharraf’s 1999 coup against Sharif’s government, The Associated Press and all Pakistani media reported. This ruling removes the final impediment to Nawaz Sharif’s running for public office. Readers should expect him to be elected to the National Assembly by the end of the summer in a by-election in some remote PML-N constituency after one of his acolytes retires for health or other persona reasons.

With this ruling, the old politics resumes in earnest. Nawaz has made no secret that he wants revenge against Musharraf. Zardari and Musharraf’s presidential system have outlived their usefulness. The political system is on the path to restore the 1973 Constitution of a more authentic parliament.

Nawaz cannot yet become prime minister because of term limits still in effect. He has the skills, however, to persuade a compliant National Assembly to amend the constitution as easily as Musharraf did, so as to permit him to become prime minister again, in time.

Nawaz’ eventual return to prominent elected position in Pakistan will not be good news for the US because the US fully backed Musharraf, ignoring his insubordination to duly elected civilian authority; his disregard for rule of law; his disdain for the 1973 Constitution and his destruction of an elected, ever corrupt, parliamentary system of government passed on by the founders of Pakistan. Nawaz would make the US pay dearly for Pakistan’s cooperation in any endeavor, unlike Zardari.

Arif Jamal’s Assessment. One of the foremost experts on jihad in Pakistan gave an interview to Pepe Escobar of Asia Timesoline, which was published today. It is cautionary. Arif Jamal, author of Shadow War: The Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir, tended to confirm our worst fears. The Swat Valley campaign has been all smoke and mirrors and a show for the benefit of Americans. The Army cannot and will not stay and the militants will return.

According to Jamal, Pakistani military strategists, led by Colonel Akhbar Khan, used the term jihad to provide a more acceptable cover term for government-sponsored, armed and violent subversion of India in Jammu and Kashmir State almost 50 years ago. They knew then that there was never a “military balance” between India and Pakistan.

Pakistan lost every war with India and could not defend itself or prevent its dismemberment unless it found a way to tie down hundreds of thousands of Indian security personnel and soldiers in Kashmir. These geniuses did the same thing in Afghanistan, with US backing, and the two insurgencies were always linked through the Pakistani armed forces, which used its intelligence agent, ISI, as the fall guy.

The strategy worked well as long as India was the only target. Jamal points out that the militants always broke discipline and the control of the Pakistan Army’s proxy, ISI. They expanded the target set and invoked the wrath of the United States.

Finally, Jamal said Musharraf never took action to restrain insurgents in Afghanistan or Kashmir, essentially in defiance of the US. He played the duplicitous game of allowing both the US and the insurgents to operate from Pakistan, according to Arif Jamal.

For the Army, the enemy is India. What army needs nuclear weapons to fight a law and order problem? The words are crafted to placate the Americans and the operations are aimed at keeping the “wogs” in their place.

Musharraf, said in an interview published today that “Extremism and terrorism from the Taliban and Al Qaida, and not India, are the biggest threats to Pakistani society.” He told Karan Thapar of CNN-IBN’s Devil’s Advocate program, however, the situation would have to be re-examined if “there are threatening noises coming from the Indian side”.

The interview, recorded on Wednesday in London and being aired on Saturday and Sunday in two parts, also questioned whether Pakistan was providing official patronage to anti-India groups. Musharraf denied such reports, saying they were not being granted official patronage.

NightWatch Comment: The overwhelming evidence is that Musharraf is a liar whose actions always betrayed his words, and an opportunist who always goes for the money and the spotlights. He continues to live under the delusion that he saved Pakistan, apparently from the constitutional democracy that Pakistan’s founding father, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, said Pakistan needed.

He wants to return to office to vindicate his corrupt, even by Pakistani standards, duplicitous administration. In this he is just like the three military thugs who preceded him in subverting Pakistan and the Pakistan Army and brought both to ruin before being forced from office.
If Nawaz Sharif ever becomes Prime Minister again and Musharraf is ever caught in Pakistan again, Musharraf would be tried, convicted and hung for treason.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RayC »

Hiten wrote:
In Pakistan, Skardu is suffering backlash of Taliban violence

Skardu not considered part of POK/PAK? :(
Pakistan thinks it is a part of PAKISTAN.

However worth Googling:

The Subtle Subversion
The State of
Curricula and Textbooks
in Pakistan

to know how to subvert the mind!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RajeshA »

SSridhar wrote:
Hiten wrote:Skardu not considered part of POK/PAK? :(
No, Pakistan does not consider Skardu as part of PoK. It is considered as part of Northern Areas. That is a distinction it makes, not us.
PoK is Indian terminology and includes both the regions which the Pakistanis refer to as 'Azad Kashmir' and 'Northern Areas'. Skardu belongs to the region which they refer to as 'Northern Areas', which is part of what we call 'Pakistan occupied Kashmir', so Skardu, as I see it, is part of PoK.

Indians often equate PoK with 'Azad Kashmir' which is wrong.
Last edited by RajeshA on 18 Jul 2009 14:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Hiten »

SSridhar wrote:
Hiten wrote:Skardu not considered part of POK/PAK? :(
No, Pakistan does not consider Skardu as part of PoK. It is considered as part of Northern Areas. That is a distinction it makes, not us.
Unfortunately even Western media outlets seem to be towing this pakistani line when it comes to Skardu, who otherwise at least refer to places in POK as PAK

A while back on NGC, this programme too had mentioned Skardu as part of pakistan, without mentioning anthing about its Indian past. Had sent them a mail with this link, and requested them to issue some kind of a clarification, stating Skardu as a region in PoK or the very least PAK. Their response was on expected lines - no response :D. what I had thought was an aberration restricted just to NGC, turns out to be a accepted thing for the westerners
RayC wrote:
Pakistan thinks it is a part of PAKISTAN.

However worth Googling:

The Subtle Subversion
The State of
Curricula and Textbooks
in Pakistan

to know how to subvert the mind!
Thanks Sir for your post. :)

Worked as a much needed reminder to complete the reading.

Had started reading it sometime back, but it got left read half-way - a very interesting read indeed
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Dilbu »

Does India need Pakistan to deter China?
Given the urgency of the situation, it's possible that India is trying to mend its stormy relationship with Pakistanin order to prevent a Sino-Pakistani partnership, or lay the foundation of a containment policy towards to China from dominating Asia.

If that is indeed the case then India has become nothing more than another one of Unkil's poodles. Read with this the recent anti china statements and actions from GOI and IA, additional troop deployment in Arunachal etc. The piss process and scaling down of confrontation with TSP fits neatly into this agenda of China containment on behalf of Unkil. Things will be much clearer soon as Indian Army Chief is visiting US and Aunty Clinton is coming down to India in a few days.

MMS is pushing US agenda blatantly. India's national priorities be damned. :(
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

As expected and predicted, Taliban re-appear in Swat
Taliban fighters have resurfaced and begun conducting armed patrols in Buner district near the restive Swat valley, months after the Pakistani army claimed that the region had been cleared of militants, a media report said on Saturday.

Taliban cadres have been carrying out armed patrols on roads in Buner district and established a check post at Pacha Killay over the past few days, local residents were quoted as saying by The News daily.

People of the area said militants established a check post beside a stream at a spot between Pacha Killay and Balo Khan a few days ago. They checked people at the post, singling out government officials and their opponents.

"The checkpoint was set up a few days ago but removed after shelling by security forces. However, they have set it up again and checked people here on Friday," a resident said.

People also said some 250 to 300 Taliban fighters stormed Pacha Killay a couple of days ago. The militants reportedly took away cash cards given to displaced people to obtain Rs 25,000 from state-run banks.

Local residents said militants were active in many parts of Buner district, including Pir Baba, Mula Banda, Dokada, Malikpur, Balo Khan, Hisar and Gokand.

However, the Frontier Corps, which is leading anti-militancy operations in Buner, denied reports that the Taliban had set up a check post. It also played down concerns about the regrouping of militants.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by shiv »

RayC wrote:
Hiten wrote:
In Pakistan, Skardu is suffering backlash of Taliban violence

Skardu not considered part of POK/PAK? :(
Pakistan thinks it is a part of PAKISTAN.

However worth Googling:

The Subtle Subversion
The State of
Curricula and Textbooks
in Pakistan

to know how to subvert the mind!
One does not even have to Google.

It is linked off the first post in every Pakistan discussion thread - including this one
http://www.sdpi.org/archive/nayyar_report.htm

Any BRFite who actually manages to read/view all the links on that page will become an instant expert on Pakistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Pakistan going through some horrible time and blaming India, of course
Pakistan government is seriously considering to direct the Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) to boycott the 2011 World Cup in protest against the International Cricket Council’s (ICC) decision to shift the World Cup matches from Pakistan due to security concerns. It is pertinent to mention that the Indian government is being blamed for influencing the ICC’s decision and trying to alienate Pakistan. “I think the Indian government, with the help of three boards – Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI), Sri Lanka Cricket and Bangladesh Cricket Board – is trying to isolate the PCB and therefore this decision at political level is not ruled out,” a source privy to the government was quoted as saying. “On the government’s order, the BCCI has not signed the Future Tours Programme (FTP) against Pakistan. Yet they want to host World Cup matches for Pakistan,” he added. Meanwhile, the BCCI has ruled out any possibility of a bilateral series with Pakistan in the near future. BCCI president Shashank Manohar said the government has not allowed hosting any such series. “The Indian government is not giving a go ahead about this and therefore we have made no provision in FTP to play against Pakistan between 2012 to 2020,” said Manohar. In an another development, PCB chief Ijaz Butt has been removed from the 2011 World Cup’s Central Organising Committee (COC). Ijaz has been replaced by Mahbubul Alam of Bangladesh 8)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by AjayKK »

Asif Iqbal's problem with IPL - the mind of a Pakistani ..

Asif Iqbal and his takleef for test crciket. Opening stance is fine.
..the concern ( for test cricket ) is a genuine one. “They call the five-day format of the game as Test cricket because it really tests a players skill. There is place for all forms of the game and all these forms needs to be well spread,”
The cause of the takleef as usual will be Indian
He is clear in his assessment on how the Indian cricket board is influencing the game world over. “What is happening right now is a lot of thrust for the T20 form of the game is coming from India. The IPL officials have got a goose that lays golden eggs and they want it to lay as many and as quickly as possible. They are running after dollars offered by the franchisees and the TV production houses.
Now he needs someone to GUBO to..
“The men in MCC are cricket lovers :lol: while those running the game (Baniya BCCI), a majority of whom never played cricket, have no love towards the sport. Look at the strategy break during the IPL season II. They can’t fool people by calling it what they called it. Everyone knows it was a money making move,” said Iqbal.
So no bucksheesh for Pakistan. Will have to exaggerate this as takleef for all..
“What IPL will do is produce more and more players like Flintoff. He is just 31 and said goodbye to cricket. Look at the likes of Adam Gilchrist and Mathew Hayden. No one can say that they were unfit to carry on playing international cricket for a year or two more but the option in terms of money they can earn playing few weeks of IPL gave them the bright idea of quitting international cricket. More and more players will take the Flintoff-option.
..to make a call for "intervention" using "those were the days" logic..
“What’s even more scary is that ICC is playing no role here. In the past ICC was a one man show run by someone sitting inside the Lord’s.
Sad realisation in the end.
. But sadly, they are neither bothered nor have the teeth to stop where the game, especially the Test cricket is heading,” said Iqbal. :((
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by anupmisra »

AjayKK wrote:Asif Iqbal's problem with IPL - the mind of a Pakistani
This turncoat migrated to the land of the pure in '61 after playing first class cricket in India. He was also involved in a match-fixing scandal in (I think) the seventies. He should be the last person to speak on moralities.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Vikas »

As long as he was fixing matches and making money in Sharjah, everything was honky dory.Now that he is out of business,he has to blabber.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

Dangerous liaison
Tariq Ali’s new book explores the relationship between Pakistan’s ruling elite and U.S. imperial power.
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