India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Jul 2009 04:40

Government's bungle on the controversial Indo-Pak joint statement Prime Minister Manmohan Singh signed on in Egypt last week may leave it having to contend with higher political oversight. The joint statement has made the Congress leadership wary of the political judgment of the PM, alerting it to the risk of an overplaying of hands on politically sensitive issues.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jul 2009 04:47

There is one aspect we haven't discussed here.

The vote bank angle.
MMS wanted to appear ready to reconcile matters with pakistan inspite of its being cornered in 26/11 to assuage the members of a particular community, who as we all know have relationships across the border. Con-gress wants to be seen as the one who protects the interests of all, is ready to reconcile even with pakistan, because of the relationships of people involved.

MMS was being chankiyan. It only took us all this while to recognize it.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 23 Jul 2009 04:59

MMS will clarify stand in the parliament on 29th/30th

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Jul 2009 05:31

Gagan wrote:There is one aspect we haven't discussed here.

The vote bank angle.
MMS wanted to appear ready to reconcile matters with pakistan inspite of its being cornered in 26/11 to assuage the members of a particular community, who as we all know have relationships across the border. Con-gress wants to be seen as the one who protects the interests of all, is ready to reconcile even with pakistan, because of the relationships of people involved.

MMS was being chankiyan. It only took us all this while to recognize it.

That angle is always present in background. But, there is renewed emphasis to build bridges from global leaders (

) towards a particular community. Well pope is also on the same page. When the forces combine and collaborate because that is need of the hour, it means SDREs and others watch out. MMSji Chankiyaness lies in dutifully knowing which side of the bread is buttered and being in right places at right time. If he is in good books of family, by extension in good books of global outlook, he is doing great.

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Jul 2009 06:37

The vote bank angle.

No despite my dislike for PM's decision making at times I don't think he would indulge in such petty politics.Moreover remarks such as

MMS wanted to appear ready to reconcile matters with pakistan inspite of its being cornered in 26/11 to assuage the members of a particular community, who as we all know have relationships across the border.

are simply not done , infact these are as damaging as the bile thrown up by the crony secular brigade .

The day we or every Indian buys into the 'religion' angle being peddled by the TSP and its funded extremists India would sieze to be a united Nation .

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Jul 2009 06:49

The India-Pakistan Havana Agreement (September 2006) on the sidelines of the NAM Summit was therefore neither dramatic nor historic. It just reiterated that India had decided to resume the broken Peace Dialogue with a chicken-bone thrown in and accepted by Pakistan that both countries had agreed to set-up a Joint Mechanism to cooperate in tackling terrorism.

By itself, the above would not have drawn so much anger and criticism within India but for the following:

* Indian Prime Ministers statements attributed by the media that: The fact is that terror is a threat to Pakistan. And it has been a threat to India. We need to have a collective mechanism to deal with it.
* Indian High Commissioner in Pakistan and Foreign Secretary designate Menon who accompanied the Indian PM stating: We must drive a distinction between terrorist elements in Pakistan and the Government of Pakistan. Pakistan too is a victim of terrorism.

Indias security establishment, the Indian strategic community and informed sections of Indian are aghast at such ineptitude being shown at Indias top-most levels in public declarations and giving clean certificates to Pakistan on its involvement in terrorism against India, when the facts indicate otherwise. Moreso, when the Prime Minister himself had been saying so before he left for Havana. It sets a dangerous precedent in that if the present Indian Prime Minister can resile from India's stated and officially maintained positions on Pakistan's proxy war and terrorism against India, he could tomorrow retreat from the unanimous SPECIAL RESOLUTION of the Indian Parliament of 1992 which explicitly declared that the issue of Jammu and Kashmir is NON-NEGOTIABLE.
<snip>

Strategically and politically, India today, if it knows how to use the leverages of power, is in a position to call the shots in South Asia and further afield. Indias security forces have displayed commendable endurance in combating the Pakistani terrorism campaign for the last 20 years and have not complained.

Indias domestic public opinion especially after Mumbai 7/11 overwhelmingly voted in surveys against resumption of an India-Pakistan Peace Dialogue. The only domestic compulsion of the Congress Party in power is the minority vote -bank in the coming state elections.

<snip>

Going through his statements quoted verbatim, and on analysis, the following impressions emerge:

* The Indian Prime Minister was defensive in his remarks on the Havana Agreement.
* The Prime Minister was not confident and enthused about what had been agreed to.
* All that was being given an exaggerated emphasis was that General Musharraf had assured that Pakistan has no hand in perpetrating this terrorism.
* The so-called Joint Mechanism had not had even the initial contours spelt out. It would be done in later negotiations.
* There was a resigned air hovering on the Prime Minister when he said I believe that this is the best that we could get under the circumstances and that whenever opportunities exist . We should toss all the balls in question.

<snip>

In terms of an overall analysis of this aspect what needs to be said is that:

* With the initial reactions that would have commenced reaching him, the Indian Prime Minister realized that he had been ambushed by General Musharraf in the one-to-one meeting and that he had conceded more than what he could defend back home in India.
* Indian Prime Ministers should never be left alone in a one-to-one meeting with the Pakistani General. This was the lesson from the Agra Summit.
* Since the discussions impinged heavily on Indian national security interests, the Defence Minister should have accompanied him for consultations.

<snip>

Getting All Too Familiar

After Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf decided in Havana to get their foreign secretaries to hold discussions on the Siachen stalemate, the Defence Ministry today dispatched its Minister of State Rao Inderjit Singh to the glacier on a three-day official visit.

Ministry sources said Singh would meet and address army jawans and commanders on the forward posts in Siachen and the base camp to assure them of “the UPA government’s sincere resolve to use the Indo-Pak institutional mechanism in full strength to bring closure to the Siachen issue”.
Peace At All Cost

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2009 06:52

Gagan wrote:There is one aspect we haven't discussed here.

The vote bank angle.
MMS wanted to appear ready to reconcile matters with pakistan inspite of its being cornered in 26/11 to assuage the members of a particular community, who as we all know have relationships across the border. Con-gress wants to be seen as the one who protects the interests of all, is ready to reconcile even with pakistan, because of the relationships of people involved.

MMS was being chankiyan. It only took us all this while to recognize it.

Why are you beating about the bush here? If you are unable to bring yourself to say the words it is intellectual cowardice, and if you feel that tippy-toeing around the words is good it is plain dishonesty.

Please correct me if I am wrong,. You are saying that Manmohan Singh wants to reconcile matters with Pakistani because Indian Muslims are traitors who are forcing him to do so so. Then you have a situation of "Hum mussalmaano bahut khush hain" because the Congress party is pleasing Pakistan (and therefore Indian Muslims) and they will keep on voting the Congress party into power since licking Paki ass is equal to licking Indian Muslim ass.

I think we waste a lot of time talking in code. But these need to couch one's words in code language could also be the utter and shameful cowardliness of a particular community.

I tell you we are all a bunch of frauds.

If you feel this is correct why not say it out in the open?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Jul 2009 06:56

The Da Vinci Code?

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Jul 2009 07:23

Meanwhile TOI rag quotes Baki paper and drips with pearls of wisdom
http://tinyurl.com/Times-of-Isloo

The story in the Dawn goes on to say, "The evidence of Indian link lists the safe houses being run by RAW in Afghanistan, where terrorists are trained and launched for missions in Pakistan. The dossier also broadly covers the Indian connection in terror financing in Pakistan."

Quoting Gilani's aides, the report says they confirmed his discussions of India's involvement in the attack on the Sri Lankan team.

arun · Post by **arun** » 23 Jul 2009 07:34

The Congress party seems to be keeping a safe distance from our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh's Sharm el Sheikh joint declaration, just in case:

1. Cong not proud of Sharm el-Sheikh Indo-Pak joint statement

2. Cong stays silent on PM's Egypt formulation

Meanwhile our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh's gaffe is being enjoyed in Pakistan:

3. Pakistan starts cashing in on Baloch blunder

4. Balochistan is Pak's new weapon against India

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Jul 2009 07:54

The immediate fallout of the episode is relief on the Groper and dus percent cabal. There won't be any consequence for not acting on Mumbai episode. GillyGroper has openly shown ungli and has made mockery of the situation by reducing the seriousness of terrorist acts committed by Bakis in Mumbai. He is gloating that as if Mumbai was nothing, and there will no further action by Bakis on the matter, by his acts at sharm-el. Gilly groper is challenging MMS to do what he can as unkil is on his side.
So after all Bakis are not going to pay any price for Mumbai act, but are going to extract price from India, if possible.

arun · Post by **arun** » 23 Jul 2009 07:54

DNA alleges that our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh exceeded his brief:

Manmohan did his own thing in talks with Pakistan

Arati R Jerath & Javed M Ansari / DNA
Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:00 IST

New Delhi: Prime minister Manmohan Singh appears to have gone beyond his brief when he turned India's Pakistan policy on its head by agreeing to two controversial clauses in the Indo-Pak joint statement issued at Sharm el-Sheikh last week. ………..................

Before the prime minister left for Sharm el-Sheikh on July 13, the cabinet committee on security (CCS) discussed his forthcoming meeting with his Pakistani counterpart, Yousaf Raza Gilani. The CCS approved the draft of a possible joint statement which the prime minister carried with him. There was no mention of the B-word or any endorsement of the delinking that crept into the final statement.....................

DNA

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 23 Jul 2009 07:59

I've told you, Kaangress is doing these things to earn US patronage, towards the goal of keeping itself in power. Kaangress has sold out the national interest.

Kaangress is easily the weakest link by far, in the national security setup.

Why should we have pretensions to being a "shooparpawar" when we are clearly no better than any African country, with our politicians stooping to selling out so easily and so shamelessly? The Americans clearly see the ugly truth that we ourselves are unwilling to recognize or admit -- that we are just an African-style country whose leaders can be bribed at a moment's notice.

There's the story about a man who spends much time, effort and money barricading his front door, to secure his home, only to fall prey to thieves who enter by the unsecured backdoor and rob him blind.

We all spend so much time debating the finer points of national security, policy and strategy, and meanwhile the Americans have effortlessly bypassed any and all considerations by cutting right to the chase: they're dangling in front of Kangress the prospect of it being able to stay in power for perpetuity in a secure setup, like Japan's LDP, and of course the greedy blighters in the Kaangress are hungrily leaping across the table, making a beeline for that which they crave most.

"Joint statement with Pak? No problem!"
"De-link terror from talks? Willingness to suffer more terrorist attacks! No problem! We politicians get Category Z security anyhow! No skin off our noses!"

This is what I call a nation of beggars. No decent people would accept this, or remain silent to this.
But we will - because we're not decent. And as indecent people, we deserve the fate that befalls all indecent people. This is the comeuppance we have earned.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jul 2009 08:02

So he could be forced out soon. This is a body blow to the newly elected govt.'s credibility.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Jul 2009 08:11

That is very unlikely, other than some temporary slap on wrists, at the most. There is still lot riding on him. He is slated to visit Unkilland and be honored with red carpet welcome by Obama in November.
http://publication.samachar.com/pub_art ... id=4733039

By and large, the Clinton visit has revealed an India is ready to deepen ties with the US – far more than with say, China or Russia, and in similar measure to fellow democracies like Turkey, Brazil, South Africa, and Indonesia.

Clinton won deals on selling US nuclear power-plant equipment to India as well as high-tech military equipment that can be tracked for its end use. She also made some progress in bringing India closer to abiding by international rules on nuclear weapons known as the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

India won regular, high-level, multi-ministerial strategic talks with the US that will expand on the Bush administration''s stronger military ties with this South Asian giant.

And in a sign of Mr. Obama''s global agenda to look beyond traditional American allies, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will be the first foreign leader to receive an official red-carpet state visit to the Obama White House.

If Obama is true to his vision, he won''t wait too long to travel to India after Mr. Singh''s November visit. That gesture would help cement a partnership long overdue between the world''s two largest democracies, says the CSM.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Jul 2009 08:12

Glimpses ofex-president Abdurrahman Wahid of Indonesia. The feeling is all over.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 23 Jul 2009 08:14

Forced out?

We will see another bunch of Mangalore-style "pub incidents" which will conveniently occur right on cue, in the run-up to any elections. The moronic public will then suddenly be distracted into parroting "Evil Hindoo Menace!" and run into the waiting arms of Kaangress again, just in the nick of time.

This is the fate of our worthless 3rd world banana republic, and its bleating sheep.

Even falling in value as it is, the US dollar will still help Kaangress pay for plenty of rent-a-mobs to keep the stunts flowing freely for electoral purposes, while they keep the wine flowing freely into their own mouths. All these kickbacks from the big deals being signed are like cocaine powder for the Kaangress addicts. They'll sell their own mothers to get their cut of that.

Vote them out? We don't even have any democracy left when the Kaangress crooks can buy the votes and the press.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2009 08:15

Cross post

somnath wrote:
To start with, I am not making up anything..Anyone who follows the intel literature of those times would know this..B Raman has written extensively on it..So has Ayesha Siddiqa, hardly an "establishment" Paki...

You can see some references here from CFR.

"The ISI diverted part of these funds and arms and ammunition to the Khalistani terrorists," alleges Raman.
In retaliation, in the mid-1980s, RAW set up two covert groups of its own, Counter Intelligence Team-X (CIT-X) and Counter Intelligence Team-J (CIT-J), the first targeting Pakistan in general and the second directed at Khalistani groups. The two groups were responsible for carrying out terrorist operations inside Pakistan (Newsline), writes Pakistani military expert Ayesha Siddiqa. Indian journalist and associate editor of Frontline magazine, Praveen Swami, writes that a "low-grade but steady campaign of bombings in major Pakistani cities, notably Karachi and Lahore" was carried out. This forced the head of ISI to meet his counterpart in RAW and agree on the rules of engagement as far as Punjab was concerned, writes Siddiqa.

pgbhat wrote:Shiv saar , SSridhar posted about Indian involvement in Krachi here
As per the post pain inflicted by India was NOT ENOUGH.

Ah I see now. India, specifically RAW has been involved in bomb blasts in Karachi.

Then I guess there should be no real issue with the idea of Indian involvement in Baluchistan. Why the angst?

What has been given away by tagging Balochistan as an Indian inspired problem? After all we have a case of left hand doing something and right hand denying it.

RAW is being shown as involved in Karachi bombings. Why not Baluchistan? And by the same token, why should the ISI not be involved in Mumbai.

Someone please explain the logic of making sudden "admissions" of RAW activity in Pakistan? Why blame Manmohan Singh when this forum is not beyond scoring the very self goal that MMS is accused of scoring. I don't suppose anyone on this forum is looking to please a Muslim vote bank as has been suggested as a a reason for MMS accepting an Indian link to Baluchistan?

Why is MMS a traitor when forum members are themselves clearly helping to link RAW with bomb blasts in Pakistan?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2009 08:17

Sanjay M wrote:Forced out?

We will see another bunch of Mangalore-style "pub incidents" which will conveniently occur right on cue, in the run-up to elections. The moronic public will then suddenly be distracted into parroting "Evil Hindoo Menace!" and run into the waiting arms of Kaangress again, just in the nick of time.

This is the fate of our worthless 3rd world banana republic, and its bleating sheep.

Even falling in value as it is, the US dollar will still help Kaangress pay for plenty of rent-a-mobs to keep the stunts flowing freely for electoral purposes, while they keep the wine flowing freely into their own mouths. All these kickbacks from the big deals being signed are like cocaine powder for the Kaangress addicts. They'll sell their own mothers to get their cut of that.

Vote them out? We don't even have any democracy left when the Kaangress crooks can buy the votes and the press.

Never blame on malice that which can be explained by stupidity. RAW is involved in Karachi. Why not Baluchistan? What is thereto deny?

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 23 Jul 2009 08:20

Why are you attempting to spray perfume on the feces left by your Kaangress masters?
How much do they pay you to sing their praises?

"But what is wrong if...."

There's plenty wrong, here. That you choose to blind yourself to it, says more about you than about the subject you're commenting upon.

"But what is the harm if..."

This is the age-old mantra of the Kaangressman. Race to the bottom.

"But why can we not when others have also..."

I don't care how many African dictators rent their wives out on the side. It's ridiculous of us to be doing anything like this. This kind of despicable behavior only shows the truth behind what we are. We really need to face upto what we are, because what I see in the mirror looks quite sickening.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 23 Jul 2009 08:24

shiv wrote:Never blame on malice that which can be explained by stupidity. RAW is involved in Karachi. Why not Baluchistan? What is thereto deny?

Malice and stupidity are not mutually exclusive. I fully expect and want RAW to be involved all over that miserable cesspool. But discarding denial is ridiculous. They are the terrorist state, and not we.

But now we've just shown that we are a 3rd world banana republic. We're just an African style kleptocracy. There's no need to treat us with dignity, since we'll sell ours for a pittance anyway.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 23 Jul 2009 08:26

MMS = Morarji Desai after 32 years.

BRites will understand what I am saying!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jul 2009 08:30

shiv wrote:You are saying that Manmohan Singh wants to reconcile matters with Pakistani because Indian Muslims are traitors who are forcing him to do so so.

Of course indian muslims are not traitors!

In a secular nation how can you ever ignore the fact that there is a 'minority' community? In india, indian muslims are a major minority community, and therefore a big vote bank.
Because of the nature of our politics, with one major party openly gunning for their vote bank and the other by virtue of its actions, having lost their faith, there is always an aspect of appeasement that will happen to assuage fears.

Here the muslim community has familial ties with people across the border, and any fall out between india and pakistan hits them the most. Their travel and way of life gets hampered.

I see this over appeasement of Pakistan by the congress, as an extension of the kid glove treatment that it gives to the muslims in india. It is fine, even necessary within certain limits, when they talk of government money for hajj. But the line is clearly crossed when this extends to blindly giving an olive branch to pakistan. The pakistanis read this as a weakness of the indian state, which is compelled to humour pakistan because of the muslims in india.

We are the ones giving them this opening, the pakistanis think they are the arbitrars and the spokespersons of the muslims in india, because indian leaders talk to pakistan with the muslims of india in mind. This is why pakistan gets to insert itself as a stakeholder into India's internal matters, the gujarat riots for instance.

Haven't we seen the BJP shamelessly gunning for the non-muslim vote bank and the congress for the muslim vote bank? Yet because we are secular, we all understand it but we can't openly discuss it, and we have to resort to code such as.

shiv wrote:Then you have a situation of "Hum mussalmaan bahut khush hain" because the Congress party is pleasing Pakistan (and therefore Indian Muslims) and they will keep on voting the Congress party into power since licking Paki ass is equal to licking Indian Muslim ass.

Unfortunately sometimes the code that person A refers to is not what person B deciphers it as. I am saying that the congress is massaging pakistan's ego with an eye on the muslims in india, you read it as Indian muslims are traitors who force the congress to do this.

The muslims are not traitors, it is the penchant of the congress to unnecessarily create an illusion that they are the sole defenders of the muslims that is causing problems.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2009 08:50

Sanjay M wrote:Why are you attempting to spray perfume on the feces left by your Kaangress masters?.

When perfume is sprayed on any faeces by anyone it should not really worry you. Even if everyone sprayed perfume on the feces of his master, Congress or not, , it should be of no consequence to anyone.

However a specific worry that Congress feces is being sprayed only indicates a worry that Congress feces may actually end up smelling better unlike non Congress feces that will continue to show itself up as crap, perfume or no perfume. That could be the real problem no? Unadulterated non congress shit being unable to compete against perfumed congress shit.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2009 08:52

Gagan wrote:
shiv wrote:You are saying that Manmohan Singh wants to reconcile matters with Pakistani because Indian Muslims are traitors who are forcing him to do so so.
Of course indian muslims are not traitors!

If Indian Muslims are really not traitors what does MMS hope to get by appeasing Pakistan? Indian Muslims must be traitors for supporting MMS on condition that he gives concessions to the terrorists of Pakistan. Isn't that what you suggested in your post?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2009 08:55

Sanjay M wrote: But now we've just shown that we are a 3rd world banana republic. We're just an African style kleptocracy. There's no need to treat us with dignity, since we'll sell ours for a pittance anyway.

Well you are entitled to your views. You may be right, in which case getting upset over little Indian diplomatic booboos is as pointless as worrying about human rights in Somalia.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jul 2009 09:05

shiv wrote:If Indian Muslims are really not traitors what does MMS hope to get by appeasing Pakistan?

I've edited my earlier post because the wording didn't come out right, please read it again.

It is the congress that makes a show-sha of 'no congress no secularism'. Then they go overboard and make conciliatory gestures to pakistan, where none are warranted, precisely because they want to live up to that image. This explains in part why MMS goes over board with = = with pakistan, because there is a strong constituency within congress that wants this.

arun · Post by **arun** » 23 Jul 2009 09:07

I cannot understand the diffidence of the Dr. Manmohan Singh Government in having anonymous sources repudiate Pakistani reports of dossiers being handed out

:

NO BALOCH TERROR DOSSIER

Pak handed no dossier to India: Govt sources

CNN-IBN

Published on Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 08:28, Updated on Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 08:38 in India section

………………. On Wednesday, Dawn newspaper had published a report claiming that when Pakistani prime minister Yousuf Raza Gilani met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in Egypt, a dossier was handed over detailing RAW hand in Balochistan and the attack on Sri Lankan cricketers in March this year.

Speaking to CNN-IBN a senior government official said, "This report is totally fabricated. No dossier was handed over to India by the Pakistan side, except the one detailing the steps taken on the 26/11 terror attacks. There is no question of any Indian involvement in Pakistan," he said. ……………..

CNN-IBN

The article in Dawn referred to above:

Proof of RAW involvement in terror acts given to India

And a follow-up Editorial in the Dawn:

The RAW dossier

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 23 Jul 2009 09:14

arun wrote:DNA alleges that our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh exceeded his brief:

Manmohan did his own thing in talks with Pakistan

Arati R Jerath & Javed M Ansari / DNA
Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:00 IST

New Delhi: Prime minister Manmohan Singh appears to have gone beyond his brief when he turned India's Pakistan policy on its head by agreeing to two controversial clauses in the Indo-Pak joint statement issued at Sharm el-Sheikh last week. ………..................

Before the prime minister left for Sharm el-Sheikh on July 13, the cabinet committee on security (CCS) discussed his forthcoming meeting with his Pakistani counterpart, Yousaf Raza Gilani. The CCS approved the draft of a possible joint statement which the prime minister carried with him. There was no mention of the B-word or any endorsement of the delinking that crept into the final statement.....................

DNA

This is an attempt to insulate the Congress from the fallout. Looks like even Sonia is not impressed. MMS probably got carried away by the Lok Sabha victory. American pressure obviously has had a impact.

India has to backtrack from this mess.

archan · Post by **archan** » 23 Jul 2009 09:15

negi wrote:The vote bank angle.

No despite my dislike for PM's decision making at times I don't think he would indulge in such petty politics.Moreover remarks such as
MMS wanted to appear ready to reconcile matters with pakistan inspite of its being cornered in 26/11 to assuage the members of a particular community, who as we all know have relationships across the border.
are simply not done , infact these are as damaging as the bile thrown up by the crony secular brigade .

The day we or every Indian buys into the 'religion' angle being peddled by the TSP and its funded extremists India would sieze to be a united Nation .

You are right, this thread just keeps getting worse by the hour. Hopefully 1 warning will be enough this time, although it seems we have another one begging for a warning here...

archan · Post by **archan** » 23 Jul 2009 09:19

Sanjay M wrote:Why are you attempting to spray perfume on the feces left by your Kaangress masters?
How much do they pay you to sing their praises?

Have whatever point of view you have, but do not make personal remarks on another user. Is it really so hard a rule to follow? I am giving this user a warning. With this, you got one more to go.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jul 2009 09:20

Shiv-ji,

That is not fair. One doesn't have to be a traitor to vote for a party in return for a percieved closeness. It ends there IMO. There is no war to overtly choose loyalties, so a little association wouldn't hurt. Per your logic all patriotic IMs would have to cut all family ties with Paki Muslims, and life has many shades of gray.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jul 2009 09:21

Archan,
I have seen the board warning just now.
I hope I have clarified myself enough in the posts that followed the post that got the warning.

This warning was not warranted.
regards.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 23 Jul 2009 09:21

India has no backbone to backtrack with. This spineless capitulation is disgusting.

I was once suspended from this forum for calling MMS a midget in a turban, but you can see that no amount of banning can hide the ugly truth and the consequences of it for the people.

We are proving the Macaulayists right every day. The leaders have no shame, and are engaged in hard-eyed pursuit of their own interests, rather than the national interest.

After this sickening display, what new low can we find to stoop to?
I'm sure we'll find something.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 Jul 2009 09:27

ramana wrote:So he could be forced out soon. This is a body blow to the newly elected govt.'s credibility.

Be realistic. Forced out. MMS?

What's concerning is that MMS is doing his own thing without any consensus of his own party members. Looks like he's sure of backing from madam and baba so doesn't care about anybody else and does what "he" wants.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Jul 2009 09:30

It’s a sellout -- Satish Chandra

It’s a sellout

The joint statement will encourage Pakistan to continue its involvement with terrorist activities against us.

The Manmohan Singh government’s post-26/11 Pakistan policy has taken a dramatic U-turn. From the position hitherto taken that there wouldn’t be any talks with Pakistan until it brings to book the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks and dismantles the infrastructure of terror, the India-Pakistan joint statement of July 16, 2009 signals a sellout.

This should not, however, come as a surprise to a people long inured to the government’s brazenness and ineptitude as demonstrated by its handling of 26/11, its conclusion of a seriously flawed nuclear deal with the United States and its sudden discovery, after over five years in office, that it had ‘underestimated’ the menace of left wing extremism.

Showing an utter lack of professionalism, the joint statement, issued by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Pakistani counterpart Yousuf Gilani after their talks in Egypt, is harmful to our interests and was best avoided as evident from the textual analysis given below:

The two prime ministers “considered the entire gamut of bilateral relations with a view to charting the way forward in India-Pakistan relations” and agreed that the foreign secretaries should “meet as often as necessary and report to the two foreign ministers” who would meet on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly.

The above formulation, along with the fact that the two prime ministers met for two hours, indicates that the India-Pakistan dialogue is already under way and contradicts our assertion that the dialogue would begin only after the perpetrators of 26/11 are brought to book and that there is no roadmap for resumption of talks.

Take a look at this second important formulation in the statement: “Both leaders agreed that that terrorism is the main threat to both countries.” This equates India and Pakistan in respect of terrorism, glossing over the fact that the latter is involved with terrorist activities directed against the former. It constitutes a flashback to 2006 when Delhi made out that Pakistan like India is a victim of terror.

Third, according to the statement, the prime minister asked his counterpart to bring the perpetrators of 26/11 to justice. To this Gilani stated that Pakistan would “do everything in its power in this regard,” that it had given an updated status dossier on investigations into 26/11, and that it sought additional information/evidence. PM said that the dossier was under review. Obviously, Singh’s demand was minimalist, restricted only to seeking satisfaction on 26/11 with no call for dismantling the infrastructure of terror or even an assurance, as given by Pakistan in January 2004, that the area under its control would not be used for terrorist attacks against India.

Pakistan’s response was also minimalist and not even in the nature of a guarantee that those responsible for 26/11 would be brought to justice.

Most significantly, through the statement, Gilani mentioned that “Pakistan has some information on threats in Balochistan and other areas.”

What is the relevance of such a formulation? It is, from a Pakistani perspective. This is the first time that an India-Pakistan joint statement hints at Indian involvement in Balochistan and in “other areas.” It is myopic to see this as a harmless formulation as it virtually equates India with Pakistan as perpetrators of terror. The international community, which hitherto was convinced of our bonafides on this count, will now begin to have doubts. Islamabad will no doubt use this to discredit the Balochistan freedom struggle and take harsher measures against it.

And, then the final act. Both the prime ministers recognised that “dialogue is the only way forward. Action on terrorism should not be linked to the composite dialogue process and these should not be bracketed.” Singh added that India was ready to discuss with Pakistan all issues “including all outstanding issues.”

It is a cardinal error to renounce all one’s options for dealing with any country. In the instant case, it relieves all pressure on Pakistan to eschew the use of terror as an instrument of foreign policy against us. Secondly, it demonstrates that India is a paper tiger unwilling to stand up for its critical national interests. Thirdly, the sentence read in its entirety, debunks the Indian assertion that Pakistan is required to give us satisfaction on 26/11 before the composite dialogue can begin. It is puerile to contend, as some have, that the “K” word does not figure in the statement as the phrase “outstanding issues” is shorthand for the same.

The joint statement is not only badly worded but also not in the national interest as it will encourage Pakistan to continue its involvement with terrorist activities against us and will undermine our standing particularly in the region. This is all the more so as it comes at a time when Pakistan has thumbed its nose at us on the Hafiz Saeed issue.

Had Singh wanted a dialogue with Pakistan only on terrorism this could have been held at the official level without the drama of a long prime minister level meeting and an elaborate joint statement. Obviously, the US pressure is at work and the conclusion of the joint statement on the eve of Hillary Clinton’s visit gives the game away.

(The author is a former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan)

Wonder why such high ranking and well connected folks are not seeing the Chankyianess which BR seems to be seeing.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Jul 2009 09:32

congress-yet-welcome-indo-pak statement

The debate over the recent India-Pakistan joint statement continued to rage within the ruling Congress, even as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s camp launched damage control exercises.

Almost a week passed, since Singh and his Pakistani counterpart Yousuf Raza Gilani issued the joint statement at the end of a bilateral meeting in the Egyptian city of Sharm-El-Sheikh on July 16, the party that leads the ruling UPA is yet to welcome it formally.

The Congress on Wednesday maintained its official stand that it would not comment on the issue as the PM had already made a statement on this in the Parliament. The party also declined to make it clear if it had endorsed either the Singh-Gilani joint statement or what the PM had told the LS and RS on the issue.

“I have nothing to add to what the PM told the House,” said the Congress spokesperson Jayanthi Natarajan, when asked if the party had welcomed the joint statement.

But, sources said, several senior Congress leaders continued to express reservations within on the Indo-Pak joint statement that effectively de-linked the composite dialogue between the two countries and Islamabad’s actions against terrorists based in Pakistan.

Some top Congress leaders shared their concerns about its political implications with the party president Sonia Gandhi too. “It is our post 26/11 diplomatic campaign against Pakistan that helped us get rid of the soft-on-terror slur and win the just-concluded LS polls. How could the PM go to the extent of issuing a joint statement in just one meeting with Gilani?” wondered a member of the Congress Working Committee (CWC).

The PM’s camp too resorted to a damage control exercise. A Union Minister known to be close to Singh said that India had been under intense pressure from the US and other western countries to resume talks with Pakistan.

India and Pakistan had started the peace-process in February 2004, but New Delhi suspended it in the wake of the attacks in Mumbai on November 26 last year. Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon too defended the joint statement by Singh and Gilani.

............

Menon defended the much-criticised reference to Balochistan in the joint Indo-Pak statement too. “We have nothing to hide on the issue of Balochistan,” he said. The Foreign Secretary, however, virtually admitted that the joint statement was not drafted as properly as it should have to safeguard the interests of India. “One can argue that it was a case of bad drafting. But the message was clear,” he said.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jul 2009 09:34

IMO the game plan is that MMS does whatever is previously agreed upon without any connection to the family. Any noise from party cadres represents internal democracy and family will bring party together during elections, and money flows in predetermined direction in conjunction with EJ activities. Public will have multiple pressure points to direct their anger at. The individual clean-image covers the collective corruption. That's why the visibly clean image minority ministers in critical geostrategical ministerial positions.

All maaya onlee

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jul 2009 09:40

Or, there is a possibility that MMS has really stepped out of line this time around. His first ever departure from the well laid out script.
The entire media is acting on cue here, these were mostly the same news outlets who were spewing = = till recently. It seems there is a band master who is coordinating the media's tune.

All this does not sound good for MMS.

This sounds like the beginning of the first ever serious request for the prince to take over.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 23 Jul 2009 09:45

I am one of the few who found that Rahul Mehta had a point. He used to make a 3 axiom statement.

1. There is a God
2. No matter what, one cannot do without a Microsoft Product
3. Finally, everyone will have to agree with Rahul Mehta (replace that last one with me

)

I had posted that this thread should be locked as otherwise perfectly normal gentlemen will start nasty sniping. Look at this this thread now. Even moderators have joined in. Suprising show of selective neutrality to boot. Some of the great contributors (names shall not be taken of such Dark Lords) can do their mocking bit and personal put downs, because that is their style, and in the eyes of some of the moderators is well within limits, hey this board is fun onlee, and last of all they means it all in a positive sense with no intended insult.

For the lesser mortals, even a slightly critical tone on the great leader, strong PM, distinguished economist is like a red rag that attracts instant censure and public warning.

But for the lesser mortals, I do have a message, do not get provoked, play by the rules, however flawed its implementation may be and we can still make a point. See I have used all positive adjectives to describe our wonderfully talented great, dear, strong leader and yet managed to diss him for what he did, and not him personally. If you react to the personal insults you are falling into a trap, just keep it at the realm of ideas and take them (the rediculers) down. When someone neutral reads this thread, it will be pretty obvious who ran out of ideas and resorted to mere taunts and tangential potshots.

To the moderators, noting personal, but it pays to heed some old postors here, even if they are not high profile. Sometimes we can be right too. This thread should have been locked. Now even great shiv is reduced to making posts comparing feacal matter of the congress and non-congress variety. Was this necessary?