India's Sharm-el- Sheikh Harakiri...

[Anujan]

“It’s all very well for the people to say that somehow India’s interest compromised by few words on a piece of paper that is not a legal document. It is a diplomatic paper that is released to the press - different from the legal papers,” said Tharoor.

What does that really mean?

Papers are made in several varieties. Let me tell you what I have encountered so far.

Newsprint paper on which things like TOI(let) is printed, usually used by praful in his dukaan to bundle up atta. And then there is "saani paper" (loosely translated as "cowdung paper") which usually was handed out to us during our school exam days. These things have a tendency to suck ink from pens like vampire, on a full tank you would get a mileage of 2 sheets or less. Then there is Ravi's xerox shop paper during engineering college days. Ravi used to xerox copy entire books for us (15 paise per page), but the paper would strangely smell of kerosene and the book would self destruct mysteriously after the semester got over.

In short, what our poojya tharoorji is saying is that the paper in SaS was not the top quality "executive bond" paper nor was it legal size. It was a thin absorbent paper, that someone had torn off a section from a roll. After the statement was signed, there was a constipated babu who took it and a flushing noise was heard.

[RajeshA]

Anujan, you really know your stuff.

[JwalaMukhi]

There are many reasons why SeS is wrong.
1) Policy of not negotiating with the terrorists is broken.
The chankianess of the ruling dispensation is little too late. Perhaps, the dispensation could have shown chankianess and had discussions with the terrorists while Mumbai event was unfolding. If negotiations were conducted with them at that time, perhaps we would have saved some precious lives including the brave NSG's and avoided creating young orphans. What is the difference between conducting negotiations now with the terrorists, when the dispensation steadfastly refused to negotiate with them during the crisis?

2) Why the hurry to indulge in chai,biskoot, samosa and eagerness to smoke peace cheroot?, with terrorists, when Mumbai is unresolved? Painfully to remind the public that the loss of precious lives was in vain. Atleast, could they not have deceny to exhibit the chankianess of chai-biskoot,peace cheroot in private, so atleast people would be left alone with the delusion that precious lives lost were not in vain.

3) The ramifications on the morale in the Jawan circle, due to the chankianans who are eager to conduct chai-biskoot, even before any resolution to Mumbai is achieved.

Can the dispensation take baby steps to stand, before it deludes itself in exhibiting chankiness of sprint runner. As tamil saying goes "Ambalithil andina pinae than arangetram". Chanikianess ! , better to display straight batting capability before deluding chankianess.

[Anujan]

JwalaMukhi-ji
S-e-S is a distraction. It is not important in the scheme of things to be worrying about.

S-e-S is the smell of the rot and we should be more concerned about the rot rather than the smell. The rot is the fact that India does not have a Pakistan policy on anything at all. Neither terrorism, nor economics, nor diplomacy, nor dialog nothing at all !

After parliament was attacked and after op-parakram, nobody seems to have asked the question "Will the next attack mean mobilization and retaliation ?". Mumbai happened, there was confused statements about "attack ! dont attack ! no no attack !". Like a draft nuclear doctrine about assured retaliation, we must have passed a draft terror document with assured retaliation. Or, if we realize that our capabilities dont allow us to retaliate militarily, we should have come up with and pursued other options. This is failure no 1 as far as terror policy is concerned.

Failure no 2 is lack of diplomatic strategy: We do not know how long we will not talk to the Pakis. Will we talk if LeT leaders are arrested ? Will we wait till they are convicted ? Will we wait till their eventual appeal to SC is heard ? What if they are sentenced to say, 2 years of house arrest ? What happened to our stand on extradition of past criminals, like JeM chief or D-company chief (Advani's famous list of 20). Will we stop talking after a new terror attack happens ?

Failure no 3 is inability to read the tea leaves: MKN famously said "Mushy's position appears to be secure" and started talking to him. Only to have mushy kicked out within 4 months. Now India wants to talk to Gilani, the ISI chief, Zardari and god knows who else.

Failure no 4 is lack of ownership of Pak policy: Who sets the rules ? PM ? Foreign secretary ? Foreign minister ? Since nobody is taking the responsibility, nobody is taking the blame either. Decisions seem to be made on the feet.

In any case, all is not lost. As far as the *specific* action in S-e-S is concerned, all it will result is a few taunts from Pakis with them claiming "Yindia-Baki equal equal". They have done this for a long time, this follows in the rich tradition of "moral, diplomatic and political support", "jihad is not terrorism", "Mujahidden were in Kargil", "Dawood is not in pakistan", "Quasaub is not pakistani". Now they have come up with "Yindia is involved in blochistan".

So what, let them say this too.

[negi]

Anujan why do you contradict yourslef ?

In any case, all is not lost. As far as the *specific* action in S-e-S is concerned, all it will result is a few taunts from Pakis with them claiming "Yindia-Baki equal equal". They have done this for a long time, this follows in the rich tradition of "moral, diplomatic and political support", "jihad is not terrorism", "Mujahidden were in Kargil", "Dawood is not in pakistan", "Quasaub is not pakistani". Now they have come up with "Yindia is involved in blochistan".

So what, let them say this too.

The biggest ramification is it sends a signal to LeT and ISI that just like in the past you can get away nice and clean and come back for chai biskoot even if you target the commercial capital of India and in process kill and maim people and foreign nationals who seem to be under the impression that they are safe in this part of India as they are not in J&K or even in Punjab.

An average JOE is not gonna come to India just because Hillary Clinton chooses to book a room in TAJ ; he would simply ask himself what did Kasab and his masters do different from the one's who bombed the WTC .

[AbhishekD]

S-e-S has been a body blow on India's fight to get the perpetrators of 26/11 punished. Right now we are discussing everything except 26/11. The War on Terror is a propoganda war and we have already lost the proganda.

MMS is too nice a guy to lead india in these times. Now we will be refuting claims from Pakistan about Baluchistan instead of talking about terrorism and Mumbai and most importantly the world will not listen to our calls for action against terrorism when we ourselves are not willing to take action

[KLNMurthy]

JwalaMukhi-ji
S-e-S is a distraction. It is not important in the scheme of things to be worrying about.

S-e-S is the smell of the rot and we should be more concerned about the rot rather than the smell. The rot is the fact that India does not have a Pakistan policy on anything at all. Neither terrorism, nor economics, nor diplomacy, nor dialog nothing at all !

After parliament was attacked and after op-parakram, nobody seems to have asked the question "Will the next attack mean mobilization and retaliation ?". Mumbai happened, there was confused statements about "attack ! dont attack ! no no attack !". Like a draft nuclear doctrine about assured retaliation, we must have passed a draft terror document with assured retaliation. Or, if we realize that our capabilities dont allow us to retaliate militarily, we should have come up with and pursued other options. This is failure no 1 as far as terror policy is concerned.

Failure no 2 is lack of diplomatic strategy: We do not know how long we will not talk to the Pakis. Will we talk if LeT leaders are arrested ? Will we wait till they are convicted ? Will we wait till their eventual appeal to SC is heard ? What if they are sentenced to say, 2 years of house arrest ? What happened to our stand on extradition of past criminals, like JeM chief or D-company chief (Advani's famous list of 20). Will we stop talking after a new terror attack happens ?

Failure no 3 is inability to read the tea leaves: MKN famously said "Mushy's position appears to be secure" and started talking to him. Only to have mushy kicked out within 4 months. Now India wants to talk to Gilani, the ISI chief, Zardari and god knows who else.

Failure no 4 is lack of ownership of Pak policy: Who sets the rules ? PM ? Foreign secretary ? Foreign minister ? Since nobody is taking the responsibility, nobody is taking the blame either. Decisions seem to be made on the feet.

In any case, all is not lost. As far as the *specific* action in S-e-S is concerned, all it will result is a few taunts from Pakis with them claiming "Yindia-Baki equal equal". They have done this for a long time, this follows in the rich tradition of "moral, diplomatic and political support", "jihad is not terrorism", "Mujahidden were in Kargil", "Dawood is not in pakistan", "Quasaub is not pakistani". Now they have come up with "Yindia is involved in blochistan".

So what, let them say this too.

You are forgetting the best part: attack on Tirupati, and expressions of determination to continue talking, because terrorists want us to stop talking, and anyway we said we would at SeS.

[Anujan]

Anujan why do you contradict yourslef ?

In any case, all is not lost. As far as the *specific* action in S-e-S is concerned, all it will result is a few taunts from Pakis with them claiming "Yindia-Baki equal equal". They have done this for a long time, this follows in the rich tradition of "moral, diplomatic and political support", "jihad is not terrorism", "Mujahidden were in Kargil", "Dawood is not in pakistan", "Quasaub is not pakistani". Now they have come up with "Yindia is involved in blochistan".

So what, let them say this too.

The biggest ramification is it sends a signal to LeT and ISI that just like in the past you can get away nice and clean and come back for chai biskoot even if you target the commercial capital of India and in process kill and maim people and foreign nationals who seem to be under the impression that they are safe in this part of India as they are not in J&K or even in Punjab.

An average JOE is not gonna come to India just because Hillary Clinton chooses to book a room in TAJ ; he would simply ask himself what did Kasab and his masters do different from the one's who bombed the WTC .

Negi-ji

I am not contradicting myself. There are two things (a) Principle (b) Policy.

Let us discuss (b) first.

Remember that I started off by saying S-e-S is a distraction and is irrelevant.

What I am trying to say is that what we did or did not do in S-e-S amounts to nothing. What kind of signals have we been sending to LeT and ISI ? We released some after Kandahar hijacking, did not cross LoC during Kargil, did not do anything after Parakram, did not mobilize after Kaluchak, did not do anything after Mumbai. No action on Kabul bombing, no progress on extraditing DI. Now if we stick our nose up and refuse to *talk* at S-e-S would that leave ISI quaking in their boots and LeT shivering in their shalwars ?

Do our actions send louder signals or do our words send louder signals ?

Let me put it to you in another way. If in S-e-S MMS had refused to meet Groper, would you be satisfied ? I for one, wouldn't be. S-e-S did two things as far as I am concerned (a) brought out our impotence into the open, by aligning what we say with what we did or intend to do. It brings into sharp focus the point that we have done nothing vis-a-vis terrorism from Pakistan. All this refusing to talk or mobilization is okay, but how many pakistani scum have we successfully extradited or pressured the pakis into prosecuting ? (b) S-e-S has shown that agreements/statements with Pakistan amount to nothing. Just like Mushy's statement about not using Pakistani territory for terror or IG's shimla agreement. It has also shown that GOI is clueless, has no leverage over Pakistan and has no pakistani policy.

S-e-S is a sideshow and distraction as far as policy is concerned. Amounts to a big zero.

Let us visit (a) the principle part of the equation. If you are riled up about the fact that MMS and his team pretty much p1ssed on the blood of Mumbai victims, I am riled up too. But what does that amount to ? If MMS stuck his nose up at S-e-S, we would all be placated, but then it is back to (b). No paki policy, LeT and ISI do whatever they please. We feel good about having "taken a stand".

There are two issues here (1) Honoring the dead of Mumbai and not forgetting their sacrifices (2) Making sure hundreds more dont die. Most of BRF is riled up because MMS failed in (1). All I am saying is that with an equal sense of urgency, we should be riled up about (2). I am concerned about the "rot" of having no clue as to how to deal with Pakistan, not the "smell" of signing "we are equal equal onlee" declarations.

[John Snow]

Sabash Anujan garu

Reminded me of my school days
Begging Uncle who worked as medical representatives for blotting paper ( Pfizer, Glaxo, Squib Boots etc) which had [product description on one side pink paper on the other side.

It also reminded me of asking for grease to stop my President and Ashoka pens (Rs 1.25 0.75 in CSDI) leaking royal blue ink.

Friends father used work in Railways and he would get white paper for rough note books.

Anyways back to Sharm ki batain.
**************

Anujan garu just read your post.

I have been since ABV tenure vocally saying that we have no TSP policy or end game goal. I was banned couple of times in saying not so diplomatically as you say it.

I bring up ABV because I thought he was most competent to handle TSP but alas even a nationalist could not formulate a strategy or policy that was coherent.

I am told ABV could not act decisevely because our COAS could not assure a favorable out come hence he had to climb down aar paar ki Bhashan. Even today all our retd General who become think tanks caution against any hot pursuit into TSP or limited strikes. They only mouth Gandhi ji solgans like War is expensive business.

A nations leader has to set goals to the Diplomatic, FM and DM to make it happen. Remember MMS summoned all the diplomats after 11/26 for holiday party in dec 2008. Chai paani and biscoot with french wine must have been served.

It is the 8th monthly shradha for all officers, jawans policemen and civies who died that night, with nothing to show.

[negi]

Let us discuss (b) first.

Remember that I started off by saying S-e-S is a distraction and is irrelevant.

What I am trying to say is that what we did or did not do in S-e-S amounts to nothing. What kind of signals have we been sending to LeT and ISI ? We released some after Kandahar hijacking, did not cross LoC during Kargil, did not do anything after Parakram, did not mobilize after Kaluchak, did not do anything after Mumbai. No action on Kabul bombing, no progress on extraditing DI. Now if we stick our nose up and refuse to *talk* at S-e-S would that leave ISI quaking in their boots and LeT shivering in their shalwars ?

Do our actions send louder signals or do our words send louder signals ?

Anujan mian...you cannot justify or sweep the BLUNDERS by merely doing an equal equal with the blunders in the past.If this is your line of thinking then why worry only the rot has been there since JLN times no.. ?

I don't even hold MMS and GOI guilty for 26/11 for it is simply not possible to prevent each and every terrorist attack , what we are talking about is the GOI's ability to do damage control and its posture in reactive mode.
This is a new term for MMS , people had put behind the 26/11 and it was expected a Govt with renewed and strong mandate would be more assertive and in a better position to handle external threats instead of a patchy jugaad of 20+ political parties with little in sync.

Of course an international forum like S.e.S can be used to send strong signal which obviously can be backed by actions on the ground ,even a slightest of control over the export of key commodities would have brought GOP to knees .

Let me put it to you in another way. If in S-e-S MMS had refused to meet Groper, would you be satisfied ?

Meeting Geelani is not an issue what came out of that meeting is .

I for one, wouldn't be. S-e-S did two things as far as I am concerned (a) brought out our impotence into the open, by aligning what we say with what we did or intend to do. It brings into sharp focus the point that we have done nothing vis-a-vis terrorism from Pakistan.

Nice a new definition of optimism...

All this refusing to talk or mobilization is okay, but how many pakistani scum have we successfully extradited or pressured the pakis into prosecuting ? (b) S-e-S has shown that agreements/statements with Pakistan amount to nothing. Just like Mushy's statement about not using Pakistani territory for terror or IG's shimla agreement. It has also shown that GOI is clueless, has no leverage over Pakistan and has no pakistani policy.

Nice since agreements do not amount to nothing... we issue joint statements doing an equal equal and endorse the adversaries stand.

I am concerned about the "rot" of having no clue as to how to deal with Pakistan, not the "smell" of signing "we are equal equal onlee" declarations.

What is the difference the S.e.S episode is a part of our foreign policy ?

[kenop]

Some lame attempts at recovery

[kenop]

Pak Govt too is shy of discussing the dossier

Pakistan has reasons for its reluctance to deny the report in unequivocal terms. Over the last few months, the Pakistani media has repeatedly asked Ministers and high officials why, if their claims of Indian involvement in Balochistan or in terrorist incidents in Pakistan are true, they have not been able present the evidence to show up India before the international community.

Always, the question got the same reply: “We are collecting the evidence and we will present it at an appropriate time.”

The reply had worn thin, with an aggressive media maintaining that while Pakistani intelligence agencies had succeeded in gathering “heaps of evidence,” the government did not have the courage or the confidence to confront India on the issue. At press conferences, journalists had openly begun to taunt government Ministers and spokesmen about this.

[ramana]

So horrors Gilani lied in the Jt statement!

[a_kumar]

Congress darling ( and Padmasri winner) Burkha Dutt also went hammer and tongs at the GoI today!!!!

....

If Burkha madam is so angry at her favourite govt (she kept saying got hurried into drafting a statement and how the B word was wrong usage), there is something surely wrong.

We know better than that!! She is just getting on the bandwagon and being relevant..
Same Barkha from S-e-S

[vera_k]

The PoliticsParty fellow claims that Manmohan Singh is in poor health and is able to work just 4 hours a day. How credible is this claim?

http://www.politicsparty.com/successor.php

[csharma]

politicsparty is mostly unreliable but sometimes their predictions come true. IMHO, not to be taken seriously.

[Anujan]

Rajmata to clarify

PM in Pak fire, Sonia to spell Cong line

Congress president Sonia Gandhi is set to step in and take stock of the situation in the core group meeting at the Prime Minister’s residence on Friday. ..Congress sources said Sonia would spell out her stance at the Congress Parliamentary Party (CPP) meeting on July 30.

[ramana]

Low blow!!!

Sharm surrender not surprising
Balbir K Punj

Why did Prime Minister Manmohan Singh blink at the meeting with Pakistan’s Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani in Sharm el-Sheikh? The truth is that he was under tremendous pressure from the US to give the beleaguered Pakistani regime a breather, notwithstanding all the nice things that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had to say during her recent visit to New Delhi earlier this week.

With Mr Gilani hailing the so-called Indian ‘admission’ on Baluchistan as a huge victory, Mr Singh has been left with little room to manoeuvre. Although the Prime Minister has claimed that the reference to Baluchistan in the joint statement issued in Sharm el-Sheikh was not a climbdown, his counterpart has given it a different twist. Speaking to the media after his return to Islamabad, Mr Gilani said, “The joint statement ...underlines our concerns over India’s interference in Baluchistan and other areas.”

The Government’s apologists have been arguing that in exchange of India agreeing to include Baluchistan, Mr Gilani had agreed not to make any reference to Kashmir in the joint statement. This is hardly justifiable. By putting Baluchistan on the table, Mr Singh has given Pakistan an additional issue to deflect the blame for cross-border terrorism. Besides, it will be naïve to believe that Pakistan will actually give up on Kashmir.

On the other hand, our position on the composite dialogue process has also shifted, courtesy Mr Singh. Ever since 26/11, our stand had been that the dialogue process would only resume when there was credible evidence to show that the Pakistani authorities had taken appropriate action against those who planned the Mumbai terror strikes.

But in a baffling turnaround, Mr Singh actually agreed to de-link the two issues. Thus, in one move Mr Singh relinquished all the strategic-diplomatic advantage that New Delhi had over Islamabad.

The Government, in its enthusiasm to curry favour with the Obama Administration, has clearly overlooked the nuances of Islamabad’s relationship with terrorist organisations. Studies by US think-tanks and Congressional groups have revealed how these organisations are an intrinsic part of Pakistan’s strategic diplomacy vis-à-vis India. In dealing with Pakistan we have to constantly remind ourselves that it is the Pakistani Army that calls the shots in that country and that civilian Governments have limited clout.

Surely our Government’s strategists know what Pakistan’s chief military spokesman, Maj-Gen Athar Abbas, said in an interview with the CNN. In effect, Gen Abbas revealed that the Pakistani military was still very much in touch with the top leaders of the Afghan Taliban and could facilitate negotiations between them and the Obama Administration. The report of this interview adds: “The quid pro quo, he (Abbas) said, for any role as a broker between the US and the Taliban, Pakistan wants concessions from Washington with respect to long-term rival India. ‘What we see as a concern is the over-involvement of the Indians in Afghanistan. This becomes a concern particularly if one is watching the security calculus in the region,’ Abbas said. ‘The fear is what will happen tomorrow if the Americans move out and they are replaced by the Indians...’.”

In this background we have to be greatly concerned when our Prime Minister concedes so much to Pakistan. The US has to ensure some quid pro quo for Islamabad for its ‘action’ on the Taliban and Al Qaeda. For the Americans, India’s acceptance to resume the composite dialogue process with Pakistan without linking it to the latter’s progress on checking anti-India terrorism would be a significant diplomatic victory as they could then pressurise Islamabad to do even more on its western border.

Mr Singh might try to give the joint statement his own interpretation. But it is as plain as daylight that the present Government’s strategy against Pakistan-sponsored terrorism essentially depends on Washington, DC getting Islamabad to deliver. The Pakistani Army is presently moving against the Taliban and their allied terror outfits under American pressure. The basic objective of the US AfPak policy is to somehow stabilise the situation in Afghanistan and strengthen the administrations both in Kabul and Islamabad to facilitate a withdrawal of American forces from the region. India’s security concerns are secondary. In Egypt, Mr Singh, eager to score brownie points with the Obama Administration, bartered away India’s strategic interests.

For the Congress this may not be anything unusual — did not another Congress Prime Minister let the Russians score a diplomatic triumph at India’s expense in Tashkent? Similarly, the first Prime Minister of India had given up our historic clout in Tibet in return for a paper promise from the then Chinese Prime Minister respecting Tibet’s autonomy. Yet another Congress Prime Minister in 1971 gave up the advantage India had by way of 90,000 Pakistani POWs in return for some vague promises by a wily Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.

Mr Singh, in keeping with tradition, has now given Pakistan an issue to counter the charge of terrorism that New Delhi levels against Islamabad. The history of Congress Governments jeopardising our national interests continues to be played out time after time.

Ouch!

[p_saggu]

From Politicsparty.com:

The Failure of Blood Flow to the Brain lapses Manmohan concentration to below 15 minutes of reading
It is Time for Sonia to install a New Prime Minister instead of waiting for the Intelligence Agency Phone Call every Morning that Manmohan has Woken-Up!

If Manmohan goes to sleep one night and does not wake up in the Morning, India will have a New Prime Minister. Who will that be?
...
There is a widespread belief that Manhoman's health is deteriorating faster than the Governance of India

Manmohan Singh underwent an On-Pump Re-do Coronary Artery Bypass. He is likely suffering from what is known as the "Postperfusion syndrome" or 'pumphead'

From Wiki:

constellation of neurocognitive impairments attributed to cardiopulmonary bypass (CPB) during cardiac surgery. Symptoms of postperfusion syndrome are subtle and include defects associated with attention, concentration, short term memory, fine motor function, and speed of mental and motor responses.[1] Studies have shown a high incidence of neurocognitive deficit soon after surgery, but the deficits are transient with no permanent neurological impairment.

[SSridhar]

Rajmata to clarify

PM in Pak fire, Sonia to spell Cong line

This means there is serious dissension within the Congress party regarding what happened at Sharam-el-Sheikh

[SSridhar]

Low blow!!!

Sharm surrender not surprising
Balbir K Punj

Apart from BR, I am yet to see any support for the PM excpt for some mumbo-jumbo from his own Cabinet colleagues.

[chetak]

quote="ramana" Low blow!!!

Sharm surrender not surprising
Balbir K Punj

/quote
Apart from BR, I am yet to see any support for the PM excpt for some mumbo-jumbo from his own Cabinet colleagues.

You apparently did not watch sleeper cell mani shankar iyer's demented reading and take on sharm el sheik statement on TV yesterday.

As also his unhinged take on the dialogue process.

What's with all these marxist guys born across the border.

[chetak]

From Politicsparty.com:

The Failure of Blood Flow to the Brain lapses Manmohan concentration to below 15 minutes of reading
It is Time for Sonia to install a New Prime Minister instead of waiting for the Intelligence Agency Phone Call every Morning that Manmohan has Woken-Up!

If Manmohan goes to sleep one night and does not wake up in the Morning, India will have a New Prime Minister. Who will that be?
...
There is a widespread belief that Manhoman's health is deteriorating faster than the Governance of India

Manmohan Singh underwent an On-Pump Re-do Coronary Artery Bypass. He is likely suffering from what is known as the "Postperfusion syndrome" or 'pumphead'

From Wiki:

constellation of neurocognitive impairments attributed to cardiopulmonary bypass (CPB) during cardiac surgery. Symptoms of postperfusion syndrome are subtle and include defects associated with attention, concentration, short term memory, fine motor function, and speed of mental and motor responses.[1] Studies have shown a high incidence of neurocognitive deficit soon after surgery, but the deficits are transient with no permanent neurological impairment.

transient with no permanent neurological impairment

Insufficient research, conclusion as yet unproven

[Raja Ram]

Okay, the GOI agreed to meet the pakis due to pressure from USG. While that in itself is wrong, let us assume that there was some hidden reward that was promised by USG that made us do it.

What is still inexplicable is the need for a joint statement. When Musharaff came to Agra, this bloody Joint statement cause problems then too. An eager MEA led by jaswant worked hard with the pakis to get a draft done with corrections made in pencil. ABV was even reported to be okay with the draft, it was LKA who nixed it at the final moment and this caused Musharaff to be pretty pissed off with LKA and so were the americans then.

Why couldn't some one play the role of LKA in the cabinet and not sign something stupid like this? That way, USG and visiting Madam would have been pleased, MMS would still be regarded as strong leader who is also stateman, and there could be a hawk in the cabinet a la LKA too. That would have been good enough. Instead we have this

[vera_k]

^^^

Probably no one wants to scupper their chances of becoming PM in a future government.

[Sanku]

Congress darling ( and Padmasri winner) Burkha Dutt also went hammer and tongs at the GoI today!!!!

Hindustan Times is also beginning to shift position, after the first day glowing review of the brave new world after S e S, I guess in their rush to be more loyal than the king they forgot to ask Rajmata if she was okay with it.

Wonder where Vir Sanghvi with is virulent Hindu hating and bashing hysteria will go now?

[Philip]

I have it on top authority that SOS (Sell-Out-Singh) did not sign any document at S-Al-S.He is quite correct about it.He never signed anything but merely put his "dhobi mark" on it! Now having dirtied his thumb with ink in doing so,none in his party want to clean it by wiping his thumb clean.In fact on hearing that he had dirtied his thumb,Sonia had a good look at it and did not want to dirty her saree,neither did she under any circumstances want to emulate Lady Macbeth and say "out damned spot" ! Rahul didn't even enter the room to look at it.So Sonia told him to get the Congress MPs to clean him up with their dhotis and kurtas.But getting rid of this dirty "spot" on his thumb is becoming more difficult by the day for SOS as none of the MPs want to stain their clothes either.Neither is anyone in the party willing to do so.SOS will now try and get his thumb "whitewashed" in parliament by any means.I understand that an attempt is being made by his dwindling supporters in the party,who while not wanting to dirty themselves either,are willing to try and convince parliament that actually his thumb is spotlessly clean! How this will fool the opposition is another matter,as they accuse SOS of even getting his other thumb dirty with the EUM "signed" with Cowgirl Clinton.They even say that his thumbs also stink of the "scent of surrender",which won't wash away.

So while SOS is praying and hoping to high heaven that the "Monsoon Session" of the House will somehow wash away the dirt from his stinking thumbs,restoring him to a state of cleanliness,the opposition are demanding of him that he "come clean" on the mischief committed both at S-Al-S and with the Cowgirl,apologise to the nation and fire his For. Sec. responsible for inking his thumb without using invisible ink!

[chetak]

Congress darling ( and Padmasri winner) Burkha Dutt also went hammer and tongs at the GoI today!!!!

Hindustan Times is also beginning to shift position, after the first day glowing review of the brave new world after S e S, I guess in their rush to be more loyal than the king they forgot to ask Rajmata if she was okay with it.

Wonder where Vir Sanghvi with is virulent Hindu hating and bashing hysteria will go now?

Isn't vir sanghvi basically a foodie journalist?

He has increasingly begun to leave his mirch masalas and dabble in
the unfamiliar territory.

[SSridhar]

When Musharaff came to Agra, this bloody Joint statement cause problems then too. An eager MEA led by jaswant worked hard with the pakis to get a draft done with corrections made in pencil. ABV was even reported to be okay with the draft, it was LKA who nixed it at the final moment and this caused Musharaff to be pretty pissed off with LKA and so were the americans then.

Why couldn't some one play the role of LKA in the cabinet and not sign something stupid like this?

Raja Ram, that takes back to my theory that Indian leaders buckle in one-on-one meetings. Even at Agra, what saved the day for India was the presence of other Cabinet colleagues after Vajpayee had agreed with Musharraf in a one-on-one baithak. At S-e-S, MMS seems to have agreed on the finer points with Gilani and simply asked his Foreign Secretary to draft the joint statement accordingly. I am sure SS Menon would have objected but he was probably over ruled. MMS had clearly said that he & Gilani called in their foreign secretaries and told them what was agreed and later when they presented the draft, MMS made some corrections. IMO, MMS therefore bears full responsibility for the embarrassing fiasco. The presence of somebody like a Pranab Mukherjee or even PC as a Foreign Minister might have prevented this.

[Sanku]

Isn't vir sanghvi basically a foodie journalist?

He has increasingly begun to leave his mirch masalas and dabble in
the unfamiliar territory.

Yes he started as a lifestyle and food journalist and thats is forte (I have to grant he knows his stuff there, even if displaying the penchant for doing a AIT type analysis on all Indian food)

Unfortunately he also heads HT -- Pakis are not the only ones who do things like making animal husbandry types as diplomats.

[csharma]

These media outlets like Barkha Dutt etc basically go with the popular opinion when it is very strong. That way they do not lose their credibility and then can step in later to mould the public opinion at the earliest available opportunity.

A similar approach was seen during terror atatcks.

[chetak]

Isn't vir sanghvi basically a foodie journalist?

He has increasingly begun to leave his mirch masalas and dabble in
the unfamiliar territory.

Yes he started as a lifestyle and food journalist and thats is forte (I have to grant he knows his stuff there, even if displaying the penchant for doing a AIT type analysis on all Indian food)

Unfortunately he also heads HT -- Pakis are not the only ones who do things like making animal husbandry types as diplomats.

A little bird was talking about a honeypot some years ago.

Hope that the price for the honey is still not being extracted by the powers that be .

[rkirankr]

When Musharaff came to Agra, this bloody Joint statement cause problems then too. An eager MEA led by jaswant worked hard with the pakis to get a draft done with corrections made in pencil. ABV was even reported to be okay with the draft, it was LKA who nixed it at the final moment and this caused Musharaff to be pretty pissed off with LKA and so were the americans then.

Why couldn't some one play the role of LKA in the cabinet and not sign something stupid like this?

Raja Ram, that takes back to my theory that Indian leaders buckle in one-on-one meetings. Even at Agra, what saved the day for India was the presence of other Cabinet colleagues after Vajpayee had agreed with Musharraf in a one-on-one baithak. At S-e-S, MMS seems to have agreed on the finer points with Gilani and simply asked his Foreign Secretary to draft the joint statement accordingly. I am sure SS Menon would have objected but he was probably over ruled. MMS had clearly said that he & Gilani called in their foreign secretaries and told them what was agreed and later when they presented the draft, MMS made some corrections. IMO, MMS therefore bears full responsibility for the embarrassing fiasco. The presence of somebody like a Pranab Mukherjee or even PC as a Foreign Minister might have prevented this.

You are right . In this whole episode EAM SMK is conspicous by his absence. What did he do ? Does he atleast understand what is going on?

[chetak]

When Musharaff came to Agra, this bloody Joint statement cause problems then too. An eager MEA led by jaswant worked hard with the pakis to get a draft done with corrections made in pencil. ABV was even reported to be okay with the draft, it was LKA who nixed it at the final moment and this caused Musharaff to be pretty pissed off with LKA and so were the americans then.

Why couldn't some one play the role of LKA in the cabinet and not sign something stupid like this?

Raja Ram, that takes back to my theory that Indian leaders buckle in one-on-one meetings. Even at Agra, what saved the day for India was the presence of other Cabinet colleagues after Vajpayee had agreed with Musharraf in a one-on-one baithak. At S-e-S, MMS seems to have agreed on the finer points with Gilani and simply asked his Foreign Secretary to draft the joint statement accordingly. I am sure SS Menon would have objected but he was probably over ruled. MMS had clearly said that he & Gilani called in their foreign secretaries and told them what was agreed and later when they presented the draft, MMS made some corrections. IMO, MMS therefore bears full responsibility for the embarrassing fiasco. The presence of somebody like a Pranab Mukherjee or even PC as a Foreign Minister might have prevented this.

Now you know why the pakis insist on dealing at pm level meetings complete with fond and nostalgic references to the old homestead.
Disarm and disable. Cloud judgment with pappi jappi.

What was actually drafted could have been done by a couple of competent mid level babus.

This penchant for glory seems to grow exponentially with advancing age!

Making a mark before they bow out finally?

Only India seems to have oldies in seeming control. Sometimes, faced with a artfully managed but purposely denied a bathroom break by wily opponents under the guise of intense and vital discussions they may give in just to get some relief. I cannot think of any reason for this absurd joint statement.

Why take the entire team along with you if you do not use the inputs from their strong vertical specialties?

[SSridhar]

Shiv Shankar menon signs off on a dull note

In this environment, when MPs asked him questions, Menon's reply was: "You could argue about the drafting [of the statement], it could have been better. But you can't fault the intention."

Immediately an MP shouted, "Then why did you draft it like this?" Menon hastily replied: "These things happen, what can we do?"

Perhaps Menon thought it was okay to make this extraordinary statement because, from the Ministry of External Affair's point of view, the joint statement was not wholly its baby nor did it reflect MEA proclivities.

This is true. On the morning of 16 June, when the Foreign Secretary and the National Security Advisor exchanged notes the general sense was that there was going to be no joint statement.

At 9.30 am, Manmohan Singh met his host, Egyptian President Hosni Mobarak. Scheduled for 10.30 am was the meeting with the Pakistani prime minister. The plan was that after the meeting, Dr Singh would hold a press conference to brief reporters. He would then proceed to the concluding session of the NAM conference and fly back home.

Things began going wrong just about then. An accident on the main Sharm el Sheikh road caused a traffic pile-up, forcing the prime minister to take another route to his hotel where Gilani was coming to call on him. Then, the cars reached the wrong gate, causing another delay. Just as the protocol chiefs on both sides were ready to strangle their respective teams, the Indian side called the Pakistanis and told them there would be a ten-minute delay. All this is incidental but it added to the generally fraught environment.

The two prime ministers met and then retired for a one-on-one meeting -- with no note-takers. They were closeted for 50 minutes to an hour. After that, the two foreign secretaries were called in and told to prepare a joint statement -- with elements the MEA had not anticipated {Did the MEA have the gumption to question the PM on this ?} -- and they retired to an adjoining room to prepare the draft of the joint statement. This took almost two hours.

It was only after this that the delegations from both sides met. Interestingly, Manmohan Singh noted early on the presence of one individual on the Pakistani delegation: Anusha Rahman from the Pakistan Muslim League (Nawaz). She represented the political consensus in Pakistan on the fact that Kashmir was not the only issue defining India-Pakistan relations anymore and that the Pakistani political establishment as a whole considered the Taliban a threat. {So, this woman Anusha Rehman was used to convey a message that PML-N, the usual supporter of fundamentalists, was also on the side of the federal government. This was similar to the ploy that ZAB enacted in Shimla in 1972}

At the larger meeting, the two prime ministers indicated nothing of the bombshell that was coming. In fact, Rehman's query about the Panchayati Raj system in India so enthused Dr Singh that he gave her a ten-minute lecture on the subject.

Meanwhile, there was news that the hosts had advanced the concluding session of the NAM meeting. Both prime ministers mulled over the issue and decided their meeting was more important. Junior ministers were asked to stand in at the concluding session. At 5.45 pm, Egypt time, the draft of the statement was finalised -- by the MEA.

It was in this context that Menon made his observations, somewhat distancing himself from ownership of a decision in which neither he nor the NSA establishment had participated.

Slowly, the contours of the bungling are emerging.

[John Snow]

Same shame lame excuses

remember during Nuke deal our famous Narayanan Security Agency (NSA) and Shiva Shankar Menon (SSN) were tarpedoed by Americans and the excuse was the Americans had lawyers in their side we did not have.

One more of their caliber we have the three Larry,Curly, Mowe

Sabash IFS and IPS cadre, damn the drafting damn the English. Mind The (Language) Gap!

[Raja Ram]

Reading SSridhar's report above...

Sigh... it would have been better if the gist of the great economist's lecture on panchayati raj had found its way into the statement. That way we could have offered the currently jobless panchayati raj expert Shri Mani Shankar Aiyar as a free consultant to pakistan as a gesture of goodwill and practical follow up on the re-engagement process. It would have also meant real time sharing of intelligence isn't it?

Now that would have been a real chanakyan move!

[RajeshA]

Shiv Shankar menon signs off on a dull note

Things began going wrong just about then. An accident on the main Sharm el Sheikh road caused a traffic pile-up, forcing the prime minister to take another route to his hotel where Gilani was coming to call on him. Then, the cars reached the wrong gate, causing another delay. Just as the protocol chiefs on both sides were ready to strangle their respective teams, the Indian side called the Pakistanis and told them there would be a ten-minute delay. All this is incidental but it added to the generally fraught environment.

The frakking road accident bears the guilt of the frak-up!

I am against giving Foreign Secretary or the NSA any blame. This cross has to be carried by MMS alone. The Indian public is willing to accept a bungling viz-a-viz any other country, but not a GUBO from Pakistan, and that too from an idiot and a nobody like Groper.

It is time for another dispensation in the Congress to come to power. MMS precarious health condition demands it.

[arun]

Excerpt from interview of G Parthasarthy, our former High Commissioner to Pakistan by Shashank Chouhan of Zee News on his views of the Sharm El Sheikh joint declaration.

G. Parthasarthy is spot on in his observations :

Shashank : Your reaction to what happened in Egypt…

Parthasarthy : It is surrendering of ground- nothing less than that.

Shashank : Doesn’t it look like a well thought out move by the government?

Parthasarthy : Move? It is only betrayal and confusion. The government has shattered the hopes and expectations not just of the Mumbai victims’ families but of the whole nation.

From here:

India surrendered ground at Egypt: G Parthasarthy

[sum]

Things began going wrong just about then. An accident on the main Sharm el Sheikh road caused a traffic pile-up, forcing the prime minister to take another route to his hotel where Gilani was coming to call on him. Then, the cars reached the wrong gate, causing another delay. Just as the protocol chiefs on both sides were ready to strangle their respective teams, the Indian side called the Pakistanis and told them there would be a ten-minute delay. All this is incidental but it added to the generally fraught environment.

Wah, wah...and i thought i had heard it all

What is the next reason to be given tomorrow? That MMS found Rs 10000 less deposited into his monthly salary account on that day which led to increase in BP for a already tense PM?

The amount of backtracking happening in the last few days is mind-boggling and not too many of our higher ups(former bigwigs atleast) seem to have anything good to say about the SeS affair