INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
^^^
Advantage of torpedo tube-launch is stealth. The missile (in a torpedo-type canister) can be launched in a silent mode and can be manuevered around for some distance from the submarine before the missile booster fires and it breaks surface. The price for this is limited quantities that can be carried onboard and much lower rate of fire.
Advantage of VL, as you have pointed out, is increase in load carried and salvo firing at the price of stealth.
Maybe a best-of-both-world solution is to have both on one platform
Advantage of torpedo tube-launch is stealth. The missile (in a torpedo-type canister) can be launched in a silent mode and can be manuevered around for some distance from the submarine before the missile booster fires and it breaks surface. The price for this is limited quantities that can be carried onboard and much lower rate of fire.
Advantage of VL, as you have pointed out, is increase in load carried and salvo firing at the price of stealth.
Maybe a best-of-both-world solution is to have both on one platform
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
per wiki, more than 50% of trident 2s are carried by ohio class boomers.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
srai wrote:^^^
Advantage of torpedo tube-launch is stealth. The missile (in a torpedo-type canister) can be launched in a silent mode and can be manuevered around for some distance from the submarine before the missile booster fires and it breaks surface. The price for this is limited quantities that can be carried onboard and much lower rate of fire.
Advantage of VL, as you have pointed out, is increase in load carried and salvo firing at the price of stealth.
Maybe a best-of-both-world solution is to have both on one platform
Well, atleast in Hollywood movies enemy submarines flooding thier torpedo tubes ffrom the 1980's, so a launch from a torpedo tube should be detectable- atleast as per Hollywood.
In reality unless you are rubbing you are within a half a km or so you probably cannot detect the emey filling his torpedo tubes and you probably need to be reasonably close to submarine to detect a torpedo based launch
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
^^^
"Stealthy launch" would probably make sense in relative terms ... after all everything is detectable within certain parameters
Submarine VL-launch of short-ranged missiles would be like committing suicide. IMO, it only makes sense when a launch area is well-sanitized and is far from enemy retaliation. That would mean missiles with a range of at least 600km, if not more.
"Stealthy launch" would probably make sense in relative terms ... after all everything is detectable within certain parameters
Submarine VL-launch of short-ranged missiles would be like committing suicide. IMO, it only makes sense when a launch area is well-sanitized and is far from enemy retaliation. That would mean missiles with a range of at least 600km, if not more.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Read Dr.Pillai's book on BMos and the cruise missile factor in taking out Saddam's huge layered air defences by knocking out his multiple command centres using Tomahawks. The same was done in Libya as mentioned above,to a lesser enemy. That task will be for our SSGNs/SSNs which hopefully will take advantage of the VLS silos appearing on most new attack subs.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Wow, so much for the "stealthy" launchVamsee wrote:Arihant Launch video
No fog or any obstruction in view as well. I had a completely different picture in my about this launch.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
For me it looks similar to borei and may be i sound bit optimistic but seems like tubes can be >4
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Well, all that video shows is that the sub was going out to sea. Nothing more, nothing less.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
That's one nice looking submarine. Looks very streamlined and elegant, unlike the hunched back Jin class boats.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
nash 4 only because they are in one line. unlike bigger boats with two rows.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
^ I think I am in Louve. Look at those curves and streamlined body. Killer
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
it looks like radar, satcom/vhf radio and periscope are all deployed in above pic.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
the deterrence has started kicking in!
http://idrw.org/?p=50257
http://idrw.org/?p=50257
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
In that nosint pic I posted above (the blue one), is it the nozzle type extension off the aft prop section a provision for towed cable/sonar array?
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Well don't be fooled by their innocent denial.SaiK wrote:the deterrence has started kicking in!
http://idrw.org/?p=50257
Given them few years and you will see a nuclear sub rolling out from Pakistani harbor.
China will make sure such strategic imbalance does not go unchecked.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
i doubt, they wont give them such a free hand
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Dunno about that. They would hate to see Vietnam with a nuke sub.Sid wrote:China will make sure such strategic imbalance does not go unchecked.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
There were reports in Porki media two/three years ago that they are working on adequate response to Indian SSN and SSBN acquisitions. Judging by that timeframe give it five to eight years before china can fully handover compact nuke reactor to porkies.
Although a risk, but China will take this calculated risk.
Hence you see Pakistanis with calm composure even on such a big event. Else you would see them squealing on TV and UN forum.
About us arming Vietnam with SSN, I would first like to see India exporting PJ-10. Our SSBN has huge Russian input and they will have influence on any such move. And like PJ-10 it wont be an easy sell.
Although a risk, but China will take this calculated risk.
Hence you see Pakistanis with calm composure even on such a big event. Else you would see them squealing on TV and UN forum.
About us arming Vietnam with SSN, I would first like to see India exporting PJ-10. Our SSBN has huge Russian input and they will have influence on any such move. And like PJ-10 it wont be an easy sell.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
TSP has nothing extra to fear from a indian SSN that is correct.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Isnt the white painted area, the sonar area? Thats not what the graphic depicts, which shows the sonar below the torpedo tubes?
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
sonar is above the torpedo tubes. any graphic showing below is wrong. it mirrors the kilo class arrangement.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Porkis wanted to get conventional submarines from PRC armed with nuclear tipped cruise missiles (hence the term nuclear submarine in Porki context).Sid wrote:There were reports in Porki media two/three years ago that they are working on adequate response to Indian SSN and SSBN acquisitions. Judging by that timeframe give it five to eight years before china can fully handover compact nuke reactor to porkies.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
INS Arihant may be of limited utility - S. Anandan, The Hindu
India’s first indigenous nuclear submarine, INS Arihant (S2), which made its first foray into the sea on Monday for mandatory trials ahead of induction into the Navy, may in effect be a limited utility submarine, if not just a technology demonstrator.
The ballistic missile nuclear submarine (SSBN), said to add the third dimension of the nuclear triad by giving India the vital survivable second-strike capability, falls short of ensuring credible minimum deterrence, sources said.
Worse, the capacity of the reactor suggests that Arihant will hardly be available for operational patrol even for one-fifth of its lifespan, having to spend great amounts of time on transit to patrol areas.
“The effective fuel inventory of the submarine reactor is insufficient for longer duration deployment of the vessel far away from Indian shores, as it will necessitate frequent fuel changes that are time-consuming,” said a Navy veteran, who was previously associated with the project.
Fuel change in a submarine reactor, he said is a protracted and cumbersome process requiring the hull of the submarine to be cut open. The nuclear attack submarine (SSN) that India operates on a 10-year lease from Russia, INS Chakra (S1), for instance, is said to have reactor with a longer effective core life, granting it more time on patrol.”
The Arihant project — the first of the three SSBNs built by India under its ATV [Advanced Technology Vessel] programme under the supervision the Prime Minister’s Office and involving agencies and establishments such as the DRDO, the Department of Atomic Energy, the Submarine Design Group of the Directorate of Naval Design, besides companies such as L&T — had been under wraps for decades until its high-voltage launch in 2009.
The 83-MW uranium reactor, developed by the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) with generous support from Russia, went critical in August last year. The submarine should have entered service in 2012, as originally planned. As the sea-acceptance trials that have just begun are slated to take at least nine months if everything goes as planned and without hiccups, Arihant will at best be inducted in 2016.
“This is our first home-made submarine reactor, so the Nuclear Safety Regulatory Authority was cautious in its approach and didn’t want to give the go-ahead for sea trials without a thorough check,” said an official explaining the delay.
The submarine arm of the Navy had previously expressed its reservations over the long “turnaround time” and frequent “fuel change cycles” of the Arihant class of submarines.
Official sources told The Hindu that the sea-acceptance trials would last at least nine months, if not more. “As the submarine with its onboard crew has to remain submerged for about 90 days at a stretch during deployments, there will be a lot of environment checks carried out during the sea trials.”
Meanwhile, work on the second Arihant -class submarine, INS Aridhaman (S3), is already behind schedule and nowhere near launch.
Arihant is said to have been built at a cost of $2.9 billion. “But that is not the unit cost of the submarine. The material cost apart, it includes the money spent on setting up facilities such as the submarine reactor complex in Kalpakkam, the Defence Machinery and Design Establishment in Hyderabad and the Ship Building Centre in Vizag. However, to amortise the amount, India should be building a series of nuclear submarines,” a source said.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
how credible is the author ?
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
SSridhar wrote:“The effective fuel inventory of the submarine reactor is insufficient for longer duration deployment of the vessel far away from Indian shores, as it will necessitate frequent fuel changes that are time-consuming,” said a Navy veteran, who was previously associated with the project.
s. anandan should stick to paintings and tourism
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Arihant is junk let's import SSK at twice the cost of indigenous SSN.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Most Sub reactors need refulling in 8-10 years . its complex process involving cutting the sub into half refulling it and putting it back keeps the sub out of business for 1-2 years if it goes along with upgrade and change of other systems which is usually the case.
It also depends on how much the sub is used during its times if the sub spends more time at sea then more fuel gets used which will reduce refuelling time it goes according to some mandatory time line and sticks to it then it will be 8-10 years.
Subs these days are rather for 30 -35 years life cycle and atleast it will go through 3 cycles of refulling and major upgrades in that life span
Most 4th Gen subs/reactors dont need refuelling of reactor for its life time.
It also depends on how much the sub is used during its times if the sub spends more time at sea then more fuel gets used which will reduce refuelling time it goes according to some mandatory time line and sticks to it then it will be 8-10 years.
Subs these days are rather for 30 -35 years life cycle and atleast it will go through 3 cycles of refulling and major upgrades in that life span
Most 4th Gen subs/reactors dont need refuelling of reactor for its life time.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
The article seems to suggest that it will have to transit bank and forth to patrolling areas because of fuel. Is it like the fuel will be exhausted before crew supplies?
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
dunno , he says 3rd one is no where near completion , but there was an news article saying its almost ready for sea trials. Not sure which is true
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
To summarize the article:
a) Arihant is a technology demonstrator and deterrence capability is limited. But we need more in same class. And Arihant and Aridhaman are way behind schedule.
b) By the time, it reaches its assigned patrol area it will be short on fuel, so it will have return back.
This actually makes sense - it took 2 years to just get out of Vizag harbour. At that speed, just how long would it take to go to Arabian sea or to South China sea and return ?
a) Arihant is a technology demonstrator and deterrence capability is limited. But we need more in same class. And Arihant and Aridhaman are way behind schedule.
b) By the time, it reaches its assigned patrol area it will be short on fuel, so it will have return back.
This actually makes sense - it took 2 years to just get out of Vizag harbour. At that speed, just how long would it take to go to Arabian sea or to South China sea and return ?
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Even the oldest model Russian sub reactors had a refuel time around 10 yrs.
Our patrols will be nearby and short..to middle ior and no more.
So while we could use better reactors its by no means a big problem.
Our patrols will be nearby and short..to middle ior and no more.
So while we could use better reactors its by no means a big problem.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Beautiful new picture of the Arihant sailing past the line of Naval officers. The clean lines remind me of the Triomphant SSBNs.
Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
The first of class of any new sub is always a Technology Demonstrator because a lot of new technologies , design solutions goes into it and it has to be validated on land and multiple deep sea trials.
Once the flaws/fixes that generally are seen during deep sea trials are perfected production models can begin.
Arihant would need atleast 1.5 years to be spent on sea trials which will go in many chunks of days before the Navy Raises its flag on it and accepts into service , the 8-9 months trials period is just ambitious for first of the class IMHO.
Once the flaws/fixes that generally are seen during deep sea trials are perfected production models can begin.
Arihant would need atleast 1.5 years to be spent on sea trials which will go in many chunks of days before the Navy Raises its flag on it and accepts into service , the 8-9 months trials period is just ambitious for first of the class IMHO.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2
Right Singha. That location is very much sufficient to target china and pakistan. At least for next 10 years we dont need to target anyone else. Given that this is our first try there is nothing wrong. The author of the article is unnecessarily being negative.