INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

[chackojoseph]

They are sailors standing. Due to grainy pic, it looks like a feature.

[krishnan]

dont think so , thats too big and fat to be sailors, its round and fat and seems to have some sort of cap

[nevin]

thats just a couple of people standing together. even in front of the sail there are some.

[ravip]

^^ good find Snaik. would indicate there is a similar hump at the bottom as well, a first among missile subs perhaps.

No that is not the case look carefully.... Even I thought the same at first glance...yes there is protruding of missile silos but it is inside another hull...otherwise it is impossible to dock a sub with uneven surface... But that tata PC picture is to much of a detail I think...I remember similar instance when Iran President visited their nuclear plant a pic from the visit was up in net and through that the US confirmed that some reactors were malfunctioning because of cyber attack on those PC.

[Yagnasri]

Time we show it to public. I hope they do when it returns.

[Pratyush]

Just a nube question. How is the navy going to know that the voyage is going OK. Is there a fixed schedule that the sub must communicate with the shore establishment. Or is she shadowed by SAR ship, all the time. That watches her all the time.

[uddu]

The video shows they are sailors standing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0aILrrz5y4

[chackojoseph]

Just a nube question. How is the navy going to know that the voyage is going OK. Is there a fixed schedule that the sub must communicate with the shore establishment. Or is she shadowed by SAR ship, all the time. That watches her all the time.

Hahahaha! very good and funny question. I don't think we have assets to tail her if she goes full potential. But I doubt he captain will try to do it for the time being.

[krishnan]

yeah could be bunch of sailors standing closely

[SNaik]

^^ good find Snaik. would indicate there is a similar hump at the bottom as well, a first among missile subs perhaps.

Not the first. Russian Golf class SSBN had it and the new Chinese test sub has it as well.

[prahaar]

^^ good find Snaik. would indicate there is a similar hump at the bottom as well, a first among missile subs perhaps.

Not the first. Russian Golf class SSBN had it and the new Chinese test sub has it as well.

The other two examples are not nuclear powered. Does Arihant design relate to operating a nuclear sub with as low footprint as possible (given the relatively modest power output of the reactor)? For example, a smaller diameter hull facilitated by a single file silo profile, also seems to suggest high priority in tonnage reduction.

[Aditya G]

Super observation snaik.

The outline of the outer hull encapsulates the tall mid section

[chackojoseph]

that anandan story about how a nuke sub needs re-fueling as soon as it reaches its AOR is simply another of those 'arjun's torsion-bar broke down' story.

move along people, nothing to see here.

Not really Rahul. Many things is what was said may be correct.

Face it. It is an experimental Sub. It will be in port for quite a time for integration's etc. It won't be refueled to full potential for obvious reasons. That cutting open hull may or may not have some element of truth but there is another reactor design. The sub, if deployed, will not go straight to designated area, but take a route pattern for deception. There is a lot worth investigation based on what he said. I am not endorsing that, but there seem's to be no invention in the comments, just presenting it in a bad manner.

[krishnan]

the fully not fueled part might be true, but i dont think it need to refuel as quickly as claimed

[chackojoseph]

That need to fuel quickly seems to be red herring. Refueling cycle compared to what?

[Rahul M]

that anandan story about how a nuke sub needs re-fueling as soon as it reaches its AOR is simply another of those 'arjun's torsion-bar broke down' story.

move along people, nothing to see here.

Not really Rahul. Many things is what was said may be correct.

Face it. It is an experimental Sub. It will be in port for quite a time for integration's etc. It won't be refueled to full potential for obvious reasons. That cutting open hull may or may not have some element of truth but there is another reactor design. The sub, if deployed, will not go straight to designated area, but take a route pattern for deception. There is a lot worth investigation based on what he said. I am not endorsing that, but there seem's to be no invention in the comments, just presenting it in a bad manner.

it's a simple case of anandan confusing between SSK and SSN. put SSK in place of arihant in his comments and everything makes sense.
probably called up some retired navy affsar on phone and ended up garbling his message due to lack of exposure to miltech.

that any SSN, however experimental would require cutting open and refueling even before it completes ONE transit to its AOR (when these things are designed for a life spanning hundreds of such transits) is simply too ludicrous to be true. there is no way on earth that is possible.

clearly, the simplest explanation must be true. anandan mixed up his SSN's and SSK's.

[Akshay Kapoor]

I agree this is just not possible. I am no nuclear propulsion expert but when a reactor gets going surely the fuel (rods ?) are enough for a few years (3/4) bare minimum. Even if we have screwed up big time this makes no sense. Arihant's speed can be a few knots low, its payload can be less but a nuclear propelled submarine is a nuclear propelled submarine. It cannot need nuclear fuel replenishment after every sortie. And if it carries 750 km nuke missiles (however many) its still a deterrent to our g0od friends in the west if not fully for our Chinese friends. Even in that case if needed we can lay off the HK coast and give them something to think about.

We are very innovative and aggressive in our use of equipment. Lets not forget what we did to Karachi with the smallest ships in our fleet.

[Will]

Just a nube question. How is the navy going to know that the voyage is going OK. Is there a fixed schedule that the sub must communicate with the shore establishment. Or is she shadowed by SAR ship, all the time. That watches her all the time.

Hahahaha! very good and funny question. I don't think we have assets to tail her if she goes full potential. But I doubt he captain will try to do it for the time being.

Dunno about tailing her but you can bet that Akula II is prowling somewhere close, playing interference and sanitising the area.

[Gagan]

C'mon all newbies!
India is a very advanced nuclear power. Arihant's reactor is good for its 10 yr life and more.
They remove and service and replace the reactor every 10 yrs.

[ravip]

Sorry if earlier posted....this book contains lot details about INS Arihant like keel laying ceremony, who funded the program and most of all the reactor technology in detail.



http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... rihant.htm

The Untold Story of Nuclear Submarine Arihant
And her Successful ‘Made in India’ Journey



By Commodore Ranjit B Rai (Retd) Published: November 2014





New Delhi. In August 2013, just before India’s Independence Day, the then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh congratulated the team that made the nuclear submarine Arihant’s nuclear reactor go critical at Vishakapatnam, appropriately calling it a giant step for India’s security with the words:

“I am delighted to learn that the nuclear propulsion reactor on board INS Arihant, India’s first indigenous nuclear powered submarine, has now achieved criticality. I extend my congratulations to all those associated with this important milestone, particularly the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE), the Indian Navy and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Today’s development represents a giant stride in the progress of our indigenous technological capabilities. It is a testimony to the ability of our scientists, technologists and defence personnel to work together for mastering complex technologies in the service of our nation’s security.”
This seminal achievement got eclipsed by the media coverage of the reverberations of the unfortunate explosion and sinking of the Kilo class submarine INS Sindhurakshak with 18 deaths in the Naval Dockyard at Mumbai four days later on the August 14 night. Submarine operations call for high safety standards and quality control checks, as failure of a small system or component or a pump can cause heavy costs and damages. Each crew member has to be an all round professional, and physiologically suited for underwater service and hardships, especially in nuclear submarines. In USA, Admiral Hyman D. Rickover, known as the father of nuclear submarines, interviewed every officer and sailor personally for service in nuclear boats, and even rejected Lt Cdr Elmo Zumwalt Jr (Bud) who later became US Navy’s 19th and the youngest Chief of Naval Operations (CNO).
British science fiction writer Sir Arthur Clark, known for co-writing in the 1960s the script for futuristic 2001: A Space Odyssey film and for first proposing connectivity through satellites and computers once said, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” The statement well applies to miniature nuclear reactors which enable men (and now women) in submarines to safely and comfortably live and operate underwater for months before surfacing. Oxygen is regenerated from sea water. The advantage of a nuclear submarine over conventional submarines is that she can propel underwater for months, the limitation being onboard food supply and human endurance. In the US Navy, which operates nuclear submarines worldwide, crews operate till about three months. There are however two sets of crews, gold and blue, to man and maintain the submarine alternately.
A nuclear submarine is Pearl shaped, with faster speed underwater than on surface. Inertial navigation gadgets, underwater receivers and sonars ensure her safe navigation and communications.
Coded Signals
Coded signals to launch missiles or weapons can be sent to a submarine from the nation’s political nuclear command authority. In India, the Government’s decision for nuclear action will be conveyed through the National Security Adviser (NSA) as extracted from the Prime Minster’s black attaché case of codes, held also by the submarine’s Captain.
The extra low frequencies (ELF) signals are received through trailing antennas, or Blue-Green lasers that can penetrate the sea, or some other secret means. In India’s case, there are some secret locations for this and one new one on the southern coast, called INS Katabomman.
Incidentally in USA, the President’s code box is called the Football, and is always in his easy reach. Nuclear weapons are strategic weapons to deter an attack or to destroy the adversary in case of attack. Indigenous capability is vital in setting up what is called the nuclear triad.
A Real ‘Make in India’ Project
It is to the credit of the Indian Navy planners that they realised this and joined hands with scientists at Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) as early as the 1980s when naval officers were deputed to BARC’s Atomic Training Centre.
Jointly, they began designing miniature nuclear reactors in a classified group code-named the new New Reactor Projects Division, carved out of BARC’s Reactor Engineering Division, with dozens of engineers as the core design team. Work under Dr RP Dastidar, head of the Reactor Group, had already begun and was code-named PRP (Propulsion Recycling Project – land Based) in the late 1970s, after the confidence gained in the Smiling Buddha Peaceful Nuclear Explosion (PNE) test on May 18, 1974.
The US had sent its Enterprise aircraft carrier to support Pakistan during the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War, prompting India to sign a Treaty of Friendship with the erstwhile Soviet Union. Moscow sent a nuclear submarine to the Bay of Bengal. The then Prime Minister, Mrs Indira Gandhi, realised the importance of nuclear submarines and decided to build this capability indigenously.
The nuclear and space programmes are controlled directly by the Prime Minister’s Office; it took time nonetheless due to the political dynamics of the country. Finally, in 1983, she gave her blessings, and funds, to the PRP project and entrusted its execution to Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) Chairman Dr HN Sethna and BARC Director Dr Raja Ramanna, who directed the 1974 PNE test.
The team included Messrs VK Mehra, RB Grover, RS Yadav and S Basu - the current head of BARC - under US and France trained atomic scientist Dr Anil K Anand. In his just published autobiography Second Strike, Dr Anand has included some details of the work by the New Reactor Projects Division; he was a colleague of Dr Anil Kakodkar at BARC. Over the years, Prime Ministers Rajiv Gandhi and AB Vajpayee and Defence Minister George Fernandes lent full support to the project.
The Half Submarine
Dr Anand studied zircaloy joints and tubes and calandria ends in France’s Pressure Water Reactors (PWR) at the Centre Energy Atomique at Scalay near Paris in Section des Advances, for the French EL-4 PWR reactor at Brennilis and learnt the techniques that helped him at BARC. Dr Homi Bhabha, Chairman of India’s Atomic Energy Commission (AEC), was keen for this technology, and the PRP model was used later to build the land based half training nuclear submarine under the classified Advanced technology Vehicle (ATV) Project. Dr Anand’s knowledge was useful.
Dr Anand relates he was interviewed by late Dr Vikarm Sarabhai for the BARC job and he recalls meeting Dr Homi Bhabha.
The near culmination of the submarine project – India’s first nuclear powered nuclear armed submarine Arihant (SSBN) is just about to go for sea trials – is a handsome tribute to the naval planners, atomic scientists, designers and builders. It has taken long but the fact that the submarine project, which includes the vessels, their reactors, some sophisticated onboard systems and nuclear-tipped missiles are just about ready, is a landmark achievement.

Arihant Getting Ready for Sea Trials
INS Arihant, the lead vessel in the series, will sail under the Indian Naval Ensign. There are some checks and rechecks before she sets for the sea, and some time in 2015 or so, she will become the third leg of India’s Triad for nuclear deterrence from the sea, when it will be equipped with DRDO’s underwater SAGARIKA B-05 missile system. Gradually, the range of her missiles will be increased from about 750 to more than 3000 km.
Notably, the current DRDO Chief, Dr Avinash Chander, recently told India Strategic that onboard systems and missiles were ready and that their integration would be done as required. The power of the submarine has steadily and gradually been stepped up to check her various systems. Arihant has already cleared all the harbour trials.
Project Challenges
In his book, Dr Anand also mentions his hot love affair in France with an affluent divorcee medical doctor whom he calls Ma Dame (Meera). She was in France from Thailand on a scholarship, and the two lived together in a hotel in the romantic Paris. Later they married, although she was many years his senior.
The BARC team under Dr Anand designed and built the half submarine with a miniature reactor (S-1) for training at the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR) at Kalpakkam. This went critical on November 11, 2003 and operational on September 22, 2006. Its replica is the Arihant’s 80 MW pressured Uranium, U-235 light water reactor. U-235 is enriched uranium.
Arihant has been designated S-2 while the second submarine in the class, Aridhaman, which is also under construction, is designated S-3.
Dates of project execution are detailed in the book. The challenge ashore was to make a dynamo meter to absorb the power which is used in a submarine to power the propeller. No nation easily shares these details and nuclear technologies. The fuel rods and pellets for the reactor and cladding were engineered by Dr Anand from imported Uranium (from Russia) and Indian oxides. Marine reactors are peaceful nuclear facilities, and outside IAEA safeguards. The over Rs 8,000 crore (Approx $ 5 billion over the years) ATV project – as it was dubbed in 1983 – was initiated by late Dr Raja Ramana (PhD in Western music and PhD in Atomic Science, both from UK) with Mrs Gandhi’s encouragement. She tasked the Navy and DRDO to join hands with BARC’S PRP project, and Moscow was approached for help.
The veil of secrecy over the ATV project was first lifted on July 26, 2009 when Mrs Gursharan Kaur, wife of then Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh, ceremoniously unveiled the submarine to the invited guests and media at the Ship Building Centre (SBC), Vishakapatnam, by breaking the customary coconut to name and bless all those who sail in her as INS Arihant.
Arihant was floated out of the dry dock and berthed alongside. No photography or visit to the 6,000 tonne black menacing hull was allowed. In his speech on the occasion, Dr Manmohan Singh thanked all those who had contributed to the project, including the Russian technicians in the presence of the Russian Ambassador Alexander Kadakin.
It is an engineering feat to master light water miniature uranium reactors in confined submarine spaces. Only USA, Russia, France, China and UK with US help have the capability to engineer and manufacture submarines with nuclear reactors and underwater launched nuclear tipped missiles.
Dr Anand reveals that Arihant was assembled and outfitted at the SBC with indigenous and imported equipment in a unique Public Private Partnership (PPP) between BARC, Navy and DRDO with engineering giant Larsen & Toubro (L&T) in a leased shed and dry dock in the segregated part of the large Naval Dockyard in Vishakhapatnam.
The dockyard was in fact built with Soviet help in the 1970s. Soviet Navy Chief Admiral Sergie Gorshkov however regarded the base as unsuitable because of the narrow mouth of the port. He also foresaw future congestion, and offered to build a green-field naval dockyard at Bimplipatam but Mrs Gandhi did not agree, fearing that Soviets would demand basing facilities. (She had kept India away from joining any blocs in the east-west Cold War). Incidentally, the Navy is now building a new green field base, INS Varsha, in the vicinity for exactly the same reasons.
Admiral Gorshkov helped later in leasing nuclear powered INS Chakra to India in 1987 for training Indian naval personnel in operating n-boats. He personally reposed faith in Indian Navy officers and sailors in operating the nuclear submarines.
The Navy set up a Machinery Test Centre (MTC) at Vishakapatnam and the Defence Machinery & Design Establishment at Hyderabad ((DMDE) to pre-test ATV’s components.
The 6,000 tonne submarine houses the computer controlled and homebuilt reactor, which produces steam under pressure to run the single multiple bladed propeller and generators to power equipment from inside the sealed nuclear pressure vessel. The reactor began purring at low power but gradually, it has been increased and operational and safety checks and rechecks done.
Russian Assistance
Russian technicians and Indo-Soviet/ Russian Working Groups have helped the Arihant programme. An Indian naval submarine design group (SDG) which was set up initially for the ATV at Kalpakkam, has given valuable support. The Indian Government has given due credit to Moscow.
Project History
It may be recalled that initially, the public sector Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) was keen for the project to be set up in Mangalore on India’s west coast. But naval planners and BARC scientists, who wanted L&T on board, convinced the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in favour of Vishakhapatnam, as nuclear facilities with expertise were available at nearby Kalpakkam. There was also some submarine skill available in Vishakhapatnam at the Hindustan Shipyard Ltd and naval dockyard where medium refit of Foxtrot class submarines was done. The Bharat Heavy Plates & Vessels (BHPV), Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd (BHEL) Tiruchy, Electronics Corporation of India Ltd (ECIL) and Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL), other public sector companies, were also close by, and involved. Tata Power supplied the weapon control console while some pumps were imported and some procured indigenously.
In the PMO, the ATV project was under the stewardship of the Scientific Adviser to the Minister of Defence (SA/MOD) and DRDO head, with naval Project Directors with autonomous powers. Rear Admirals R S Chaudhry trained at IIT Kharagpur, Greenwich and with HDW Germany as the naval architect, engineers Gurmeet Singh and N Nadaph, both trained at BARC, find mention as the naval pioneers who were associated with the project from Day One.
The Project Directors and later Directors General of the ATV projects were Vice Admirals including the late MK (Mickey) Roy, an illustrious French trained Alize Observer from 1984 who was also Dr Rammana’s friend and paying guest roommate in London, followed by Bharat Bhushan till 2000 a UK trained engineering specialist; RN Ganesh, the first Captain of INS Chakra trained at Vladivostok till 2003; Promod Bhasin, a missile specialist electrical officer who had served in UK and Soviet Union and prepared the Styx P-20 missiles for the 1971 war; DSP Verma, and currently; Dinesh Prabhakar.
It was Vice Admiral Bhasin who had the honour to cut steel as Project Director in 1999 on his birthday with the then Navy Chief Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat’s support, who took great interest and visited the project.
It is pertinent to record that USS Nautilus took 16 years from 1944 when it was authorised in 1955 for sea trials and in 1960 to join the fleet, while Russia took 16 years to build its first second generation SSN-093 submarine (1990- 2006). The Arihant achievement must be judged as such, and lauded. The Indian Navy and the nation look forward to the Red Letter Day when the Captain can proudly report to the President, India’s Supreme Commander, ‘Arihant is at sea under nuclear power, Sir’, as US Navy’s first submarine Captain of USS Nautilus did in 1954 and went on to sail under the North Pole undetected.
Commodore Rai is a former Director Naval Intelligence (DNI).

© India Strategic

[SaiK]

inside ohio

freeze at around 9 seconds.

[chackojoseph]

Will ... Correct about Akula.

RahulM, I will reply as I have kept a query with Anandan.

Gagan, can you please contact me at frontierindia at gmail dat com . ?

[chackojoseph]

I am not saying that Arihant hull has to be cut open for refueling, but here is an interesting description of what happens.

Source

Specifically[

When you refuel a reactor you have to basically cut the boat open to access the top of the reactor vessel.

Someone tell me how this reactor can be refueled from inside submarine



As I understand is that submarine reactor is usually sealed.

[Jayram]

Navy is so far ahead than the Army or AirForce when it comes to indiginsation. Witness the finger pointing that characterizes those forces while the Navy quietly goes ahead decades in advance and achieves what it needs with minimum drama. Kudos..

[member_22733]

Why do they need to cut open the hull for re-fueling? Is it because of how the reactor rods are designed?

[chackojoseph]

Why do they need to cut open the hull for re-fueling? Is it because of how the reactor rods are designed?

Any nuclear reactor core requires handling different. As written in the post i linked, entire core is replaced. It is not as simple as opening the fuel inlet, showing up the rods, closing it and then press start button. It is very different from fossil fuels. Please read the reactor re fueling procedure. It shouldn't be much different.

[chackojoseph]

The core life is lot less than comparable submarine as per Anandan, hence the need to refuel often. He did not reveal figures.

[khan]

Deleted

[SaiK]

@BARC it is all robots.

[Neela]

Unless I am mistaken, the dark brown part is not the reactor. That is LP/HP parts of the turbine. The green part on the right is the propeller shaft assembly.
The core reactor itself is the white/cream colored assembly on extreme left.

[chackojoseph]

Yes, i guess since it is top loading.

[Philip]

From the none to clear pics,there appears to be a small bulb atop the fin,for the TAS.One will need more detailed pics to se whether this is a smaller but similar bulb that one finds on Akulas or a new design.The latest Russian subs feature a small tube,no bulb,as the larger bulbs created a wake that sometimes got the wires entangled with the screw.

[vishvak]

Navy is so far ahead than the Army or AirForce when it comes to indiginsation. Witness the finger pointing that characterizes those forces while the Navy quietly goes ahead decades in advance and achieves what it needs with minimum drama. Kudos..

Yes, it is a very formidable achievement. Of late, however, a lot of gears from USA has been purchased too. There is a need to plan long term about increasing reach in the Indian ocean and how to go about it in step by step manner while maintaining full dominance. It would be quite an obvious need to avoid overt reliance on any other country and therefore our first priority would be to purchase, if at all, from countries that will allow maximum independence of planning and operations. Considering that Americans are already dominating the seas, an alternate path is a must for our own convenience in dominance.

[SaiK]

Yes, i guess since it is top loading.

there should be some reason for the steps and rails.. no?

[member_27164]

i would rather say the grey assembly is the reactor. i am not sure if the green part is propeller shaft assembly but to me it seems unlikely. it should be the turbine. let me support my theory.
first, if you are developing reactor, you dont need to install shaft at test location. only turbine is sufficient where you would measure if its outout is meeting its projected values.
now please refer below image for simple representation of nuclear power plant.
basic nuclear power plant
the aluminium colored lines of pipes seems to be inlet for the reactor for steam generation. since few of them are reaching at the white construction (may be pump house) they might be the pipes to carry condensed water back to reactor.
There is large black pipe attached to green assembly. it is going horizontally towards right mid edge of the picture. it should be the exhaust pipe carrying semi-hot steam which has done its work. now if green assembly is driving shaft why would it require such large pipe? also googleing image search of 'steam turbine' results into similar sized turbines in general(i agree direct comparison isnt fair but also consider efforts taken fo miniaturize all assemble to save space and weight)
there is staircase near turbine which leads towards grey assembly. at the landing of its upper end there is a door. there is also small ladder that climbs up from landing and leads to walkwat at top of the grey assembly. if you look carefully there is some pagoda like structure behind the walkway which is also grey in color. in my opinion it is the mechanism to insert/remove fuel rods (top loading)
also not a white dias like structure at lower end of staircase at green assembly. it seems like console for an operator to operate in standing position. its height is comparable to safety grills/railings installed above 'pump house' so we can assume it to be around 4 ft. Now compare size of an average man and and the green assembly. this also gives similar proportion size of steam turbine i mentioned earlier.

now look at the door of the grey assembly. i am considering it to be approx 6ft in height. with this reference one can estimate diameter of grey assembly to be around 30feet (approx 9 meters). so easily fitting inside arihant's hull (10-11 mtrs). However the white structure in the left corner which some are saying as reactor is much tall and fat to fit inside 10mtrs diameter hull.

the grey assembly has some areas at bottom which looks like provision to fit in hull while the white structure does not have any. its bottom is flat. and last point, if i am to take a photo of reactor i will surely keep it in middle of frame than to far corner of the photo.

P.S. i am only a software engineer and not any nuclear expert. these are just guesses from observation.

[chackojoseph]

I fail to see the logic of stairs on reactor core. What purpose they serve? I can understand stairs on generation unit. I am open to suggestions.

[SNaik]

Cream coloured tank is the reactor, propulsion unit is inside a mock-up of a submarine pressure hull, the green coloured machine is a load compensator.

[SaiK]

check ohio class diagram
http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/i ... way_lg.jpg

[chackojoseph]

Cream coloured tank is the reactor

Yes I suppose. That tank appears to be a container for reactor inside so that people don't guess what is inside. There appears to be some monitoring equipment on the top and hence the steps and railings.

[symontk]

Cream colored has water inside and simulates the high pressure scenario a reactor and hull usually needs to operate