INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

negi · Post by **negi** » 31 Jul 2009 21:03

Shankar wrote: atv was a charlie design not arihant

NO... ATV is ARIHANT the S1 which got scrapped in the mid way was infact a ground up inhouse designed PWR by BARC prior to the work on new PWR with RU inputs; and one more thing ARIHANT does not use the VM5/OK650 reactor ; the fact that the work on reactor was started by BARC long time back itself ofcourse with RU inputs is very well documented and a clear indicator ARIHANT does not use the same powerplant as the Akula.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 31 Jul 2009 21:12

shiv wrote:Folks speaking of noise levels and Arihant - didn't the news say that the stem turbines will first be fed from outside after which the nuke reactor will gradually reach criticality and "go on steam" so to speak.

The whole idea sounds funny to me but I know nothing of these things. I suppose it makes sense to keep the reactor dormant with Cadmium or whatever rods (eating neutrons I guess) until the sub is ready to go on steam.

But still the concept sounds interesting. They will burn firewood and coal outside and feed steam to the sub and run its turbines and then switch on the nuclear kettle.

Its like aux power for an aircraft before main engines are started.

By doing the way you mentioned, we can test the loading of the propulsion system and bench mark the performance so as to know the way the N powerplant will be loaded also the vibrations due to propulsion with out reactor and with reactor functioning could be logged.

IMHO

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 31 Jul 2009 21:42

jaladipc wrote:The weapons pay can take in any missile with a diameter of 2.1m and a length of around 13 m.( this clears all the yindoo cruel thoughts in the darkness .

A.k.a properly proportioned Agni-3SL

BR Missile page lists A3SL as

Agni-3SL Configuration:

Agni-3A consisting of A2FS(S27), A3CUS(S7), A3SUM(120-14) and MIRV-Mk4 payload.

Height: 12.2 m.

Mass: 38 ton

Performance: 5,200Km (1,400Kg), 7,200Km (1,050Kg), 11,600Km(700kg)

The Yindu Vishwakarma in defense establishment very "Chankian" onleee .... !

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 31 Jul 2009 21:49

How does submarines manage waste heat from nuclear reactor, since only a fraction (30-40%) is used in propelling the boat and other internal functions. A power plant (nuclear or conventional) of that size would have a huge water cooling tower to dissipate waste heat. How does subs do that in general and nuclear subs in particular.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 31 Jul 2009 21:51

shiv wrote:Folks speaking of noise levels and Arihant - didn't the news say that the stem turbines will first be fed from outside after which the nuke reactor will gradually reach criticality and "go on steam" so to speak.

The whole idea sounds funny to me but I know nothing of these things. I suppose it makes sense to keep the reactor dormant with Cadmium or whatever rods (eating neutrons I guess) until the sub is ready to go on steam.

But still the concept sounds interesting. They will burn firewood and coal outside and feed steam to the sub and run its turbines and then switch on the nuclear kettle.

Shiv-saar
Apart from the reactor itself, the entire secondary system needs to be tested - heat exchangers and the piping -- very complex, dangerous and time consuming task. You might be fascinated to hear that in heavy applications (thermal power station for example), after the insulation is peeled from the pipes, people typically wait days if not weeks for the system to cool before the pipes are safe enough to touch and service. Correspondingly, it takes days for the pipes/heat exchangers to be heated to operational temperatures (any quick heating will sometimes crack or fatigue various components). Typically in thermal power generation units, the secondary and tertiary heat exchange and closed circuit circulation units are fed with hot water/steam and temperature raised gradually to make sure that there are no leaks and stress in the support/joints/valves due to thermal expansion.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 31 Jul 2009 21:52

Philip wrote:The Russians will not allow the Scorpene to have Brahmos,that's the problem, and the Scorpene is much delayed,with France also trying to beat the Germans for the next order of subs for Pak.The Brahmos Amur will cost less or equal than a Kilo class,jhalf the price of a Scorpene,say the manufacturers and will be both cost-effective and far more lethal,silent and capable than a Kilo.The Russians have also offered a joint Italian-Russo AIP Brahmos design.

In addition, as I have understood from Brahmos' guys at the IMDS Naval Show yet 4 years ago, Brahmos could not fit to Scorpene nor to Amur-900 because their are too narrow. Only Amur-1600 and Kilos could fit Brahmos-size VLS. The good thing is that an universal VLS for Brahmos could be (dimentionally) armed with Kh-55-size long range subsonic missiles. They have close dimention.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 31 Jul 2009 22:05

A lot of nuclear subs have diesel engines and battery back up. So that until the nuclear reactor powers up or has to be shut down, the diesel can run the sub.

Katare wrote:How does submarines manage waste heat from nuclear reactor, since only a fraction (30-40%) is used in propelling the boat and other internal functions. A power plant (nuclear or conventional) of that size would have a huge water cooling tower to dissipate waste heat. How does subs do that in general and nuclear subs in particular.

I think they vent warm water along the aft end near the propeller so that it mixes with sea water and does not leave a telltale large heat signature.

The submarine nuclear reactor has pressurized water in the primary circuit which is not allowed to get converted into steam, this transfers heat to the secondary circuit which can run an electiec generator. Apparantly the secondary circuit has been used to directly run the propellers too.

I think we have had enough talk about the arihant being this class or that class. Finally everything points to one thing. The arihant is a completely new class, The ATV or the Arihant class. There might be some similarity in the equipment with the Shuka / Akula class of subs, since these were the latest functioning subs when the arihant started to built, but MKI-zation of the arihant has ensured a 40% indigenous component there. The follow on subs will be upto a 60-70% indigenous.

We will probably never accurately know from open sources the power of the reactor on board, chaiwalas will probably let the few blue blooded BRFites in on the secret. The aam junta will just have to wait for a chennai meet to know. Meanwhile the likes of prasun chor gupta will have a field day, regurgitating all manner of bullshit, because BRF did not let people know any better.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jul 2009 22:20

So lets name this the Arihant class.

A coffeewala in '01 said it has both attack and boomer role. the long delays were to accomodate the requirements. And did give timeline and qtys when the class takes to sea.

Gagan, BRF has tried to keep up with the info and sifted it. I am sure it has the best open source analysis. If one scrolls back, I did ask folks to compare surfaced and submerged diplacements of other Western subs from the early days.

And when some members were seeing it as an esclation of the posture, I viewed it as a restoration.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 31 Jul 2009 22:45

They will burn firewood and coal outside

Shuddh 99% enriched, dried Go-Pu discs onlee. This is why they have the slightly lower flat aft deck. Remember, this is a SDRE yindoo ship.

So let's see: The diameter is unknown, so the displacement is uncertain to within an order of magnitude. Reliable sources tell me it is as big as an aircraft carrier and the entire Lok Sabha can meet in its conference room.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 31 Jul 2009 23:10

A submarine has huge amount of reserve bouyancy in form of water, dead weight, air pressure cylinders inside it. Thats why the subs on surface are around 1/4th out of the water. In surfaced situation all its weight is supported by displaced water, and the portion outside the water is part of reserve bouyancy as even in surfaced situation the sub has some dead weight inside it.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 01 Aug 2009 00:23

Arihant will not be 100% copy of any Russian submarines. The safety record of Russian Subs is dismal if not horrible.
IN must have changed the design significantly to suit IN standards and requirements (like with the rambha).

The design must have been 75% modified and Russian inputs to meet IN requirements. This boat will be uniquely Indian period.

mandrake · Post by **mandrake** » 01 Aug 2009 00:37

John Snow wrote: This boat will be uniquely Indian period.

I dont think anyone doubts that other than some fanbois ofcourse. imho.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 01 Aug 2009 02:03

edited according to adm's request

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Aug 2009 02:08

Igorr,
Prasun sengupta is easily the most hated Indian defence writer on this forum. Mostly because of his habit of lying through his teeth in practically every article.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Aug 2009 02:12

Igorr,

John, I think, is stating that RU provided a design that was then refined for Indian specs.

Sengupta must have been drunk ................... most of us when drunk say insane things, he is just the opposite.

BTW, which sub is in the very first picture you posted? TIA.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Aug 2009 02:39

That is an Arihant concept created by "Harpreet" from Shiv Aroor's blog. Looks like that image has been added with chor's wild ideas.
Chor even adds the klub 3x2 launcher on the arihant!

Doesn't look like he understands the concept of three 0.74m dia missiles in one 2.1m dia tube. Copies the Amur/Kilo sail!

Edited as advised.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 01 Aug 2009 02:40

Gentle readers on this forum are reminded that:

Prasun 'Photo-Chor' Gupta (the plagiarist) is personal non-grata on BR Forum. Pls remove any and all of his "Chori-Ka Maal" (pilfered material), including his name (

) from BR Discussion forum:

Thank you.
-Arun_S {Admin Hat on}

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Aug 2009 03:34

Gagan wrote:That is an Arihant concept created by "Harpreet" from Shiv Aroor's blog. Looks like that image has been added with chor's wild ideas.
Chor even adds the klub 3x2 launcher on the arihant! Doesn't look like he understands the concept of three 0.74m dia missiles in one 2.1m dia tube. Copies the Amur/Kilo sail!

The pics are pixel to pixel copies. He was on his way to disprove John Snow!!!!!!!

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 01 Aug 2009 04:15

Jains send notice over N-submarine name

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Aug 2009 04:39

God there is no shortage of nuts in our country

atma · Post by **atma** » 01 Aug 2009 05:49

Actually, We need to learn something from the Jains. I remember a visit years ago to the Jain Dilwara Temples near Mount Abu in Rajasthan. I was intrigued and surprised that these 11th century temples were dug deep into the mountains, with little to indicate their presence from the outside, apparently to hide them from marauding Islamic hoardes. Certainly not visible on Google Earth.

Try and let the Ari - Hunt well disguised, and protected missile silos, well disguised, in the Aravalli Range, so close to to the puki border, and well protected by forward air bases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Abu

atma · Post by **atma** » 01 Aug 2009 06:06

Suryaji, I agree with your nut assesment.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 01 Aug 2009 06:37

China casts a wary eye on India's nuclear sub

Shijie Junshie (Global Military) magazine executive editor Chen Hu, a military historian and specialist in strategic affairs, said the muted international response to India's announcement of its nuclear-powered submarine programme reflected the world's "duplicitous" efforts to focus attention away from the development.

"If, instead of India, it had been Iran or North Korea that had made this announcement, there would have been a more stirring response from the international community... There would have been economic, diplomatic, and military sanctions and intimidation -- and even the threat of war," he noted.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 01 Aug 2009 06:45

Look at what the Aussies are writing post Arihant launch.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/india-risin ... -e4ga.html

India rising, and flexing military muscles

Military spending has doubled over the past decade to about $US30 billion ($36 million) a year and if military outlays keep up with the country’s anticipated economic growth, analysts say it will be the world’s third largest military power in two decades.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 01 Aug 2009 06:50

From Ayesha Siddiqui in Dawn.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... s-race-179

Why an arms race?

We don’t need to copy the Indians because the Pakistan Navy already has the French Agosta 90B subs with an air-independent propulsion system that allows it to remain submerged for longer periods than the older subs. This means that if the navy could miniaturise nuclear warheads, it could sneak into Indian waters with the Agosta 90B at a time of extreme crisis and threaten the Indians. Technically speaking, the job is done.

Is this really true? Can the experts shed some light on this?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 01 Aug 2009 07:01

csharma wrote:From Ayesha Siddiqui in Dawn.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... s-race-179

Why an arms race?

We don’t need to copy the Indians because the Pakistan Navy already has the French Agosta 90B subs with an air-independent propulsion system that allows it to remain submerged for longer periods than the older subs. This means that if the navy could miniaturise nuclear warheads, it could sneak into Indian waters with the Agosta 90B at a time of extreme crisis and threaten the Indians. Technically speaking, the job is done.
Is this really true? Can the experts shed some light on this?

longer periods than older subs?

what exactly is old

hint 2: " could miniaturise nuclear warheads" what is could here?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2009 07:07

csharma wrote:From Ayesha Siddiqui in Dawn.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... s-race-179

Why an arms race?

We don’t need to copy the Indians because the Pakistan Navy already has the French Agosta 90B subs with an air-independent propulsion system that allows it to remain submerged for longer periods than the older subs. This means that if the navy could miniaturise nuclear warheads, it could sneak into Indian waters with the Agosta 90B at a time of extreme crisis and threaten the Indians. Technically speaking, the job is done.
Is this really true? Can the experts shed some light on this?

Not an expert.

Google Uncle tells me that Pakistan ha 3 Agostas - Khalid, Saad and Hamza. Only the third (PNS Hamza) has MESMA AIP from DCNS. (BTW these DCNS guys should be punished in some way for arming Pakistan)

As regards the statement "if the navy could miniaturise nuclear warheads," - I can only say "If my aunt had a d1k she would have been my uncle"

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 01 Aug 2009 07:11

OT Alert

shiv wrote:...
- "I can only say "If my aunt had a d1k she would have been my uncle"

With the repeal of 377 the days of aunty & uncle with d1ks is not too far.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2009 07:54

China casts a wary eye on India's nuclear sub
Shijie Junshie (Global Military) magazine executive editor Chen Hu, a military historian and specialist in strategic affairs, said the muted international response to India's announcement of its nuclear-powered submarine programme reflected the world's "duplicitous" efforts to focus attention away from the development.

"If, instead of India, it had been Iran or North Korea that had made this announcement, there would have been a more stirring response from the international community... There would have been economic, diplomatic, and military sanctions and intimidation -- and even the threat of war," he noted.

Huh?

Has the Curtular Levorution led to a downsizing of Chinese brains? Or is it the recession?

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 01 Aug 2009 08:36

OT Chinese clearly have trouble understanding how India and how the 'western' world works.

Por ejemplo:

The attitude of arrogance and superiority aside, here are some interesting and apparent steps for the Western media to take to smooth the hostility between them and China.
1. Accept China's uniqueness (if not exceptionalism)
2. Recognize the legitimacy of the communist regime (at least partially in terms of the progresses they have made)
3. Tolerate the minor human rights problems and individual sufferings which are common in any developing country (not to mention China's hugeness and complexity)
4. Commend and encourage steps China made toward openness, cooperation and transparency (with less grudge and suspicion)

These may sound imposable or impractical for some in the West, but consider this: Are these applicable to India? I think these are exactly how the Western media treats India. They see India as a unique place with some nostalgia; they see Indian government as one of their own; they see India's human rights problem with great tolerance and understanding; they seem never hesitate to acclaim India as one of biggest power in the world in spite of its economy is far lagging behind that of China.

To all Chicoms who continue making these comparisions between India and China/Iran/North Korea, your logic is flawed because our nation is a *real* democracy.

disha · Post by **disha** » 01 Aug 2009 10:10

csharma wrote:Look at what the Aussies are writing post Arihant launch.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/india-risin ... -e4ga.html

India rising, and flexing military muscles

Military spending has doubled over the past decade to about $US30 billion ($36 million) a year and if military outlays keep up with the country’s anticipated economic growth, analysts say it will be the world’s third largest military power in two decades.

Australians live in latent fear of two IOR countries. India and Indonesia. All their antics will be trying to "counter-balance" perceived "threats" from those two countries, particularly since they see themselves as donning the mantle of the former colonial masters! It is more like the dog barking more than the master!

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 01 Aug 2009 10:25

I don't know why jingoes are obsessed with SSBN thingie, even only as an SSN it is a formidable asset. SSBN is required if the adversary has power to destroy a very substancial part of our land based nuclear assets in first strike. It does not seem that CHina has this power yet, so by the time they have this power, our SSBN fleet would be ready. Till that time we can use our SSN fleet to project power. If CHina tries any mischief, then its sea assets all over the world would be under threat by our SSN.

With Scorpene costing around US$ 600 million plus, it would be good idea to have an all SSN-BN fleet of 30 subs.

disha · Post by **disha** » 01 Aug 2009 10:58

Raj Malhotra wrote:I don't know why jingoes are obsessed with SSBN thingie, even only as an SSN it is a formidable asset. SSBN is required if the adversary has power to destroy a very substancial part of our land based nuclear assets in first strike. It does not seem that CHina has this power yet, so by the time they have this power, our SSBN fleet would be ready. Till that time we can use our SSN fleet to project power. If CHina tries any mischief, then its sea assets all over the world would be under threat by our SSN.

With Scorpene costing around US$ 600 million plus, it would be good idea to have an all SSN-BN fleet of 30 subs.

Excellent point. To the rest of the Jingoes credit, what they are trying to point is to bridge something like the GIUK gap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIUK_gap. The only way we can bridge naval chokepoints in Asia is via an SLBM of Agni class. Agni SL that is.

At the same time it should be understood that the naval chokepoints we are facing vis-a-vis other adversaries also apply to them. Hence Arihant is seen as restoring the parity [MMS body language will be far better when he meets you know Hu for eg]. Arihant launch is not an offensive posture, it is more a defensive posture in the point that it bridges a "strategic gap". It should be noted that again the Arihant is one of the arrow in the quiver. The naval quiver is not complete until for eg. Project 78 comes on board with indigenous ASW capabilities.

Above put together is a very effective Sea [and thus strategic] denial to the adversary. Which fits well into the posture adapted by US. There will be always the maximalist side of equation where one would like to have SSBNs which can fire from under Antartic Ice Sheets just like some have submarine that can come out of Arctic Ice Sheet

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 11:11

Easy does it.

I am sure it was not to give affront to the whole community.

I would say it is another case of 'bad drafting'!

It is true that there are many Jains in the Armed Forces and so this gentleman Jain or whatever his name is, is thus give horrifying erroneous interpretation.

In fact, he should address the Jains in the Armed Forces to quit and prevent others from joining, if indeed he is serious about his contentions!

I know many Jains in the Army, some vegetarians and some fiercely non vegetarian and each of them is as warlike as the next man non Jain Jack!

All the same, let there be peace is my request!

Viv Sreenivasan · Post by **Viv Sreenivasan** » 01 Aug 2009 11:31

While this is good news, lets remember that its going to take atleast another 2 years and probably 3 years to actually get this sub in operational condition. We dont have a nuke sub yet, just one undergoing trials and evaluation. India missed a MASSIVE opportunity with the Magazon docks fiasco. We could easily have had 12 upgraded U-212 German conventional subs by now. Hope we learn from the past and dont make the same mistake with the scorpene. BTW dont underestimate the Agosta 90B sub with MESMA. The fuel cell allows the sub to cruise underwater at 8kts for up to 2 weeks. All three Paki subs are going to be equipped with the fuel cell. Currently the pakis have the best sub in south asia.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 01 Aug 2009 11:37

I would say it is another case of 'bad drafting'!

couldnt control...

It is astonishing that these people who live and practice nonviolence are so fr1gging ungrateful for the protection that the Indian Armed Forces provide to their way of life, that they feel compelled to make this rude noise.

this only remind me of the movie Rambo IV - those christian missionaries.

disha wrote:Just because some nutcase wants his/her fifteen minutes of fame

The community has decided to put up handbills signed by five senior most monks in every Jain temple.

I dont know disha whether your case should be treated as exception or theirs. Just check how this is played out. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ia/atv.htm. They are notoriously mischievous to put that. Did they attach Buddha image when "Buddha smiled". You should spend energy in countering that.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 01 Aug 2009 12:59

Arihant is a sanskrit word for 'destroyer of enemies' which happens to be a very common name in India. The hue and cry is totally uncalled for IMHO.

Btw the name Narayanan appears to bee a wee bit similar to that of a God. Can I protest?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Aug 2009 13:13

As an Indian I feel insulted at some of the posts.

The overdose of Hinduvta also is stifling, even if justified in some cases.

The Muslim and Christian bashing also is distressing, sometimes justified and sometimes overdone.

But that is life!

What is important is - Tolerance.

Jainism teaches Tolerance.

Let us display Tolerance.

He who display Tolerance, wins!

Analyse it rationally. It is the Headlines which is the Narad Muni!

You will do greater service to the Jain community if you take the Editor to court for defaming the Jain community with that stupid headline that confuses the average Indian.

Do let us know when you do it and what is the end result. Hope the newspaper folds up because of your services to the community's honour!

The headline reads:

Jains send notice over N-submarine.

Anyone would get confused! I would too!

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 01 Aug 2009 13:35

cool down guys -there is enough religious sh-- all over the political spectrum -lets not put BR in that shit pan too

Arihant is a beautiful name and has no religious over tone as i look at it -lets keep it that way

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 01 Aug 2009 13:38

China casts a wary eye on India's nuclear sub
Shijie Junshie (Global Military) magazine executive editor Chen Hu, a military historian and specialist in strategic affairs, said the muted international response to India's announcement of its nuclear-powered submarine programme reflected the world's "duplicitous" efforts to focus attention away from the development.

"If, instead of India, it had been Iran or North Korea that had made this announcement, there would have been a more stirring response from the international community... There would have been economic, diplomatic, and military sanctions and intimidation -- and even the threat of war," he noted.

Someone should tell this deepsh1t that India is in league of superpower and not a banana country like NoKo or Iran who are proven proliferators of n-tech. If this guys is a specialist in strategic affairs dont have an elementery knowledge of world affairs.