INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Aug 2009 03:55

you believed Shankarosky??? what else did you expect?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 04 Aug 2009 04:27

Cain Marko wrote:
hnair wrote:Why is Shree Kakodkar being questioned, nay interrogated by a private TV channel with limited viewership? I can understand Doordarshan doing this to disseminate or dispel doubts of any Indian citizen. That interview is in bad taste to put it mildly. It sounds more like a BBC "I think you are lying, injun" type one than an Indian channel's quest for information.

Will they ask the same question of say, Charles Bolden, if he visits India? "What about the russian engines y'all use?"

Good point this. The cajones these ddmites have when it comes to questioning indians are truly made of top grade steel. If it were a phorener type interviewee, you could've bet the guy wouldn't have insisted upon that line of questioning, "but but is it an indian design?" IOWs, "i think it is a russian copy paste and you bugger can't do anything right".

CM

I would say, Shri Kakodkar should have replied that "well, the SSBN makes so much noise that the whole worlds listens to it" or something like that. The more the people answer to their questions, DDM will continue to ask those stupid questions.

And they took these DDM guys into the SUB? Why?

A: Yes, I think so. You have seen the inside and tell me if you felt some sound there?

Q: Compared to a power reactor the sound was minimal.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Aug 2009 04:33

Okay folks. Here's what my ears are hearing:

RaaaaW is running the security angle jus like in Shakti.
The people involved in ATV are some of the smartest minds in Yindustan. IIT, MIT degrees, PhD's and all that... Salary is as good as ITvity pay.

Director Sagarika(K) working very close with ATVwallahs(obviously) and confirmation that it will carry nooks.

These chaps (5 officials) are in the brittanic island with white passports being driven around in chauffered cars courtesy HCI.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 04 Aug 2009 04:42

What do you ever mean by the last sentence saar?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 04 Aug 2009 04:48

See my secret
By R. Prasannan

Around 12 noon on July 26, the sky over the Indian Ocean region must have been clogged with reconnaissance satellites trying to get a photo of the Arihant, as she was to come out of the dock. It is an open secret that every time India test-fires a strategic missile, American reconnaissance planes take off from bases in Southeast Asia and hover around.
The Navy was determined to fool the snoopers. Gursharan Kaur broke the coconut, unveiled the name-plaque and the sub was towed a few metres. But, it stopped short of the dock mouth, and was towed back quickly. “We will sail her out when no one is looking,” said a naval officer.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 04 Aug 2009 04:49

And they took these DDM guys into the SUB? Why?

I think they toured the "half boat" on land, not the sub.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 04 Aug 2009 04:51

At least, a select group of journalists, including this correspondent, was allowed to watch (without cameras) the ceremony, and view the 110ft-long, 10ft-wide, 6,000- tonne giant floating in the flooded dock of the super-secret, but innocuously named, Ship Building Centre in Visakhapatnam.

Sigh... Is it too much to ask that DDM know the difference between feet and meters?

The Arihant exists. But few will see her. Or her two sister-subs being built. The three, like the Greek Gorgons, will freeze the gazers to stone.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 04 Aug 2009 05:10

John Snow wrote:Source?

Someone who got badly hurt, when they opened their mouth and gaped at her

John Snow

My rustic observation:

"Haath Kangan, Tou Aarsi Kya|
Padhay Likhay Ko Faarsi Kya||"
Based on one out of two meaning to the word "Kangan" {1: ornament worn on hand, 2: looking glass}, it is loosely translated to:
- One does not need a mirror to see what can be directly seen by eyes, {I.e. what is self evident does not need proof}
  And if a person is well educated, he is but proficient in Faarsi (Persian) language" {Persian/Farsi language was the language of the elite, much like what French was in early to mid 20th century.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Aug 2009 05:11

Sandipan wrote:Shankarovsky had us almost convinced that Arihant reactor is a 190 MW russian akula reactor and Arihant is nothing but a modified Akula. Now with this interview with Anil Kakodkar saying that, Arihant has indigenous reactor and Russians were just providing consultancy, I dont know what he has to say now. Arihant reactor from the latest news we have looks to be a 80MW reactor which was initially published in media and not 190MW what S'sky had us believe

Consultancy does NOT mean ToT!!!!!

And, ALL consultants bring their own flavor, so yes, there will parts that "look" like what the Russians have. Consultants are biased towards what they know.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Aug 2009 05:12

sanjaykumar wrote:What do you ever mean by the last sentence saar?

Which bit? Link

Raaaw will be providing stuffto support sub radar. They are there regarding ATV

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 04 Aug 2009 05:24

Sandipan wrote:Shankarovsky had us almost convinced that Arihant reactor is a 190 MW russian akula reactor and Arihant is nothing but a modified Akula. Now with this interview with Anil Kakodkar saying that, Arihant has indigenous reactor and Russians were just providing consultancy, I dont know what he has to say now. Arihant reactor from the latest news we have looks to be a 80MW reactor which was initially published in media and not 190MW what S'sky had us believe

Depends on who do you belive and what fits with in constrain of physics.

80MWt pushing the craft at 37 Knots (physically impossible)
80MWe pushing the craft at 37 Knots (again physically implausibe)
80MWt pushing a craft much bigger than Charlie at 24 Knot (again very implausibe)

OTOH Shankarovsky's 190 MWth is right on, but its an Indian make, it works and its very quite.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 04 Aug 2009 05:36

Surya wrote:you believed Shankarosky??? what else did you expect?

as lurker I reemember, Shankarosky believed Indian PAD test was Israel Arrow handed over and given to india, tested as fake Indian missile, and was argueing same way with everyone.

anyways, i do not think actual detail of this sub is going to be made public in such a manner. only some external images and broad details are made public. giving actual reactor power output and performance figures is not going to happen.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 04 Aug 2009 05:38

‘Half Boat’, full training

Welcome to the ‘Half Boat’’’ said an official as journalists stepped into a huge complex surrounded by giant sized machines and pipes at Kalpakkam. This is the country’s most secret project developed a few years ago by scientists of the Department of Atomic Energy, he said. Code-named Plutonium Recycle Project, the compact pressurized water reactor was the key to enhancing the country’s N-capabilities in the wake of a threat from an enemy. The reactor is capable for remaining underwater for a very long time, the sortie time depending on the endurance of the crew of the submarine, said Bhabha Atomic Research Centre director Dr S Banerji. “At most the crew can stay in for nearly three months,” said a senior naval officer who was present on the occasion.

The ‘Half Boat’ serves as a training centre for the nuclear submarine crew. The training is further supplemented with the help of an indigenously designed full scope simulator.

“We faced numerous challenges in designing a nuclear reactor for the submarine application. The first and foremost is that the system has to be designed in such a manner that the plant is very compact and its weight is minimal,” said one of the scientist working on the plant. The design team worked out a plant layout consisting of several high pressure, high temperature equipment.

“The entire propulsion plant with primary, secondary, electrical and propulsion systems along with its integrated control was packed in the aft end of the land-based submarine hull designed and built specifically for the purpose,” the scientist said. The unit also meets the requirements of public safety as applicable to a nuclear power station. The reactor has multistage emergency core cooling, pressure suppression and gas disposal systems and a biological shield tank.

The design ensures that the vessel neither releases radioactivity to the surroundings nor does it leave any radioactive trail under water. India is planning to develop two more N-submarines.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 04 Aug 2009 05:44

Launch of the Arihant — Significance for India

- C. Uday Bhaskar

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 04 Aug 2009 06:51

I like this guy - he was the most sane and professional commentator during the 26/11 attacks:

http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_p ... id=1138779

He sometimes shows up on here, doesn't he?

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Aug 2009 07:08

^ Yes Vishnu Som does post on BRF ; btw excellent discussion and pretty well informed and articulated views from the panelists.
Kudos to Vishnu & Co. for framing meaningful and relevant questions.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 04 Aug 2009 07:15

BC was clear and articulate in his expression.

Adm Raja Menon could nor explain why SUbmarine is complex envoirment clearly and fell short of words.

Bhishma as usual trumpted his little role way back, then went about saying we Unkil Aunty to contain PRC rather than advocate ramp up the speed while focusing on the econmy too.

Some how he still thinks India vs PRC we will get support from some one else what a sad strategist. While PRC is encircling us.

All in all only BC impressed and Vishnu Som has scope for improvement, while he is miles ahead of other DDM correspondents.

This my honest assesment.

Indians still are not comfortable infront of the camera...IMO

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Aug 2009 07:16

abhiti wrote:
Rahul M wrote:very low. the only boat PLAN can spare is the xia. secondly pak won't get a SSBN, they can ask for a han ssn. for that too chances are low IMHO.
We need to worry about not just what PLAN can spare but also what Pak can pay for in barter or cash. ........

that comes later, the product first has to be up for sale/barter !

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Aug 2009 07:40

Aquiring a SSBN does not make any sense for the Pakis.

The Pakis may be rabid and their jernails may be jihadis, but paki procurement is quite admirable (I mean this in all honesty), given their international migrane standing and moth eaten economy. There is a method to their madness in procuring things.

Their H&D is intact after making a bum. They know that even with SSBNs they dont posess the capability for a sneaky overwhelming first strike on the SDREs and probaably never will. So aquiring a SSBN for a sneaky first strike or for H&D purposes is ruled out.

That leaves assured retaliation. The chances of a overwhelming Indian first strike is low. India has a NFU policy. Even if the SDREs wanted to have a first strike, Paki warheads (I know I know -- the theories about no paki warheads) are likely to be dispersed with no Indian jernail confident about taking them all out in a first strike.

To eliminate even the 0.0000001% chance of a SDRE first strike, the most cost effective way is the threat of assured, but deniable retaliation from China -- backed with threat of overwhelming chinese second strike if we retaliate against the cheenis. If the pakis do sign a "lease" for SSBNs, expect it to be a fig leaf for a sub fully staffed and operated by the chinis and the paki ports simply being used to rotate crew and resupply for a cheeni sub on deterrence partol in the Indian Ocean. The sub will also be a signal of assured but deniable second strike by the cheenis in case of an Indian first strike on the pakis prompted by a war or a escalation due to unkil's snatch and grab operation on the paki bums.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Aug 2009 08:11

but paki procurement is quite admirable
That is true for every country ruled by a Military dictatorship i.e. eat grass but buy Brass (bun intended).

Ok on a serious note say 10/20 years down the line TSP ofcourse will buy a SSBN if PRC offers it at a price which TSP can manage to pay by using the photochor N/W to facilitate PRC's proliferation business as well as more US aid trickling in.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Aug 2009 08:51

Indians still are not comfortable infront of the camera...IMO

No worries.

Now that India has the first nuke sub, India will not build out on Business Schools. And, those new kids will be just fine in front of foto equipment.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 04 Aug 2009 09:30

Regarding Borei's pumpjet - how long before China goes this route? Will India likewise one day make subs with this technology?

What are the technological differences between the ballistic and the attack sub?

Sure, the ballistic sub has to have the onboard systems and capacity to fire ballistic missiles. Meanwhile the attack sub fires torpedoes. But is an attack sub easier or more challenging to build than an SSBN?

If so, why have we come out with the SSBN first, instead of trying for an attack sub first?

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 04 Aug 2009 09:34

So aquiring a SSBN for a sneaky first strike or for H&D purposes is ruled out.

They COULD be the first ever to hide under the Antarctic Polar Ice Cap..

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 Aug 2009 10:06

The pakis are so far down south that they are indeed hiding under the Antarctic polar ice cap.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 04 Aug 2009 10:07

Lenght of the Drum is standerd and acurate to the third decimal point = 0.914
So = 0.914 x (96.21/11.20) (11.2 mm at the start of Dia tapering)
= 7.85 Mtrs
Taking account for small angular distortion (as the base drum is fairly closer to PRP-TD)
= 8.0 Mtrs
I am quite confident of my anaysis. In any case one can be certain that inner hull dia is not more then 9 Mtrs if the scale is 1:1.
Dia of the PRP-TD seems to match of that printed by Telegraph that is 8 Mtrs.
There is no standerd slab height , so cannot be used as reference.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Aug 2009 11:05

regarding the prafool article above, I was preparing to read about his favourite topic when it comes to India and nuclear, Capt Subba Rao and of course I wasn't disappointed !

I'm in fact surprised he didn't talk about alexander nitkin and how the two cases are similar.

this man is sooo predictable.

bart · Post by **bart** » 04 Aug 2009 13:58

I vaguely remember some BR Admin/s (Rakesh?) promising loads of mithai upon the N-Sub launch? But this seems to have been quietly buried, amidst the hot debate about whether the elephant looks like a rope or a tree trunk

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 04 Aug 2009 14:18

bart wrote:I vaguely remember some BR Admin/s (Rakesh?) promising loads of mithai upon the N-Sub launch? But this seems to have been quietly buried, amidst the hot debate about whether the elephant looks like a rope or a tree trunk

That one is for Akula's.
Not the ATV = Arihant = 30% Akula + 30% Borei + 20% Charlie I + 12% Charlie II + 5% Yasen + 3% Amur

Sarcasm alert

manish · Post by **manish** » 04 Aug 2009 14:32

rakall wrote:
bart wrote:I vaguely remember some BR Admin/s (Rakesh?) promising loads of mithai upon the N-Sub launch? But this seems to have been quietly buried, amidst the hot debate about whether the elephant looks like a rope or a tree trunk

That one is for Akula's.
Not the ATV = Arihant = 30% Akula + 30% Borei + 20% Charlie I + 12% Charlie II + 5% Yasen + 3% Amur

Sarcasm alert

What about them Kilos rakall ji?
Rumours say thousands of Indian sailors trained over them over two decades and they kept one in Vizag in a dismantled state all the time!
They musta been copying them too - they should make up at least 17.345% I belive

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 04 Aug 2009 15:03

manish wrote:
rakall wrote:

That one is for Akula's.
Not the ATV = Arihant = 30% Akula + 30% Borei + 20% Charlie I + 12% Charlie II + 5% Yasen + 3% Amur

Sarcasm alert
What about them Kilos rakall ji?
Rumours say thousands of Indian sailors trained over them over two decades and they kept one in Vizag in a dismantled state all the time!
They musta been copying them too - they should make up at least 17.345% I belive

Ohh.. that was S1.. S1 was actually was the first attempt at ATV - where they tried to fit in a reactor into the Kilo that was not refurbished for 10years.. that was codenamed S1, but apparently that was not successful..

and then came S2 which was designed very quickly in photoshop by copy-paste of all the different subs that were available from Russian friends..

nash · Post by **nash** » 04 Aug 2009 16:08

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090803/j ... 313999.jsp

Unveiled: Arihant’s elder brother
G.C. SHEKHAR

Rear Admiral Michael Moraes, Flag Officer Commanding of submarines, said that ideally, the navy required another 13 nuclear-powered submarines.
“Even for us, the Arihant is a novel experience and in spite of the slightly higher noise levels of nuclear submarines, (acoustic) dampening features continue to give these submarines the much needed stealth advantage that makes them an ultimate secret weapon,” he said.

Asked if he was waiting to take the first dive once the Arihant was commissioned, Moraes quipped: “I am dying to, and I hope it happens soon.”

Sorry if this posted before...

But i want to ask some Que to gurus.

Rear admiral is saying we need 13 nuke sub

if we want to get these many subs then what will be the time-period or is it feasible to construct and maintain these many subs.

and what is this (acoustic) dampening features ...?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 Aug 2009 16:33

Acoustic dampening tiles on the submarine's surface,
All instruments inside with moving parts on special stands which dampen sound conduction. The flooring of the submarine carpeted/made of material that will reduce the sound of the personnel walking about. The Engine room, reactor isolated and housed in a sound proofed casing inside a sound proofed compartment.

I wonder if active noise cancellation is involved. Since no Indian sub currently has this feature. The Akula-II and the scorpenes will come with feature.

manish · Post by **manish** » 04 Aug 2009 17:14

rakall wrote:
Ohh.. that was S1.. S1 was actually was the first attempt at ATV - where they tried to fit in a reactor into the Kilo that was not refurbished for 10years.. that was codenamed S1, but apparently that was not successful..

and then came S2 which was designed very quickly in photoshop by copy-paste of all the different subs that were available from Russian friends..

OMG...now isn't that a closely guarded Chinese tech? That's so bad on our part, we didn't even acknowledge their contribution

So its' Russo-Chinese now?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 04 Aug 2009 17:15

Rahul M wrote:regarding the prafool article above, I was preparing to read about his favourite topic when it comes to India and nuclear, Capt Subba Rao and of course I wasn't disappointed

Bet he didn't mention this

John Gunther Dean's Oral History

Ambassador John Gunther Dean has donated his personal papers to the Jimmy Carter Library. Dean was U.S. Ambassador to Cambodia, Denmark, Lebanon, Thailand, and India during a Foreign Service career that began in 1956 and ended with his retirement in 1989. These interviews were conducted by the Foreign Affairs Oral History Program of the Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training.

http://www.jimmycarterlibrary.org/libra ... /India.pdf

In 1987. the Indian Navy had leased a Soviet nuclear submarine. The purpose of the lease was to train the Indian navy in the use of such a technically advanced naval vessel. The reactor unit was sealed and the spent fuel was to be returned to the Soviet Union. Mr. Gandhi had assured President Reagan that "this specific submarine on lease from the Soviet Union would not be used in any manner in the event of any hostilities." Prime Minister Gandhi had assured President Reagan in writing that there was "no ground for any apprehension". Naturally, our navy wanted to know more about the submarine leased from the Soviet Union to India, and this led to a covert operation to obtain detailed plans and drawings of this vessel.
The incident occurred when an Indian Navy Captain was arrested at Bombay International Airport before boarding a flight for the United States in possession of detailed technical data on the Soviet nuclear submarine. Apparently, Indian Intelligence had tracked the Indian naval officer - or was he a double agent - and, in any case, I was asked to meet with the Prime Minister who confronted me with the facts. I did my best to smooth ruffled feathers, and fortunately Mr. Gandhi was sufficiently experienced in international relations to know that information on the Soviet vessel was a legitimate target for our Intelligence agencies.
I urged that the apprehension of the Indian officer before leaving India with the drawings should not adversely impact on over-all U.S.-Indian relations. At the same time, I protected vis-a-vis Washington the American official who had been in charge of this case at the Embassy. He left the post quite rapidly, but has enjoyed an interesting career after his service in India.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Aug 2009 17:16

He prolly means another 3 more Arihant , the 13 may be typo

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Aug 2009 17:23

Gerard wrote:Naturally, our navy wanted to know more about the submarine leased from the Soviet Union to India, and this led to a covert operation to obtain detailed plans and drawings of this vessel.
The incident occurred when an Indian Navy Captain was arrested at Bombay International Airport before boarding a flight for the United States in possession of detailed technical data on the Soviet nuclear submarine. Apparently, Indian Intelligence had tracked the Indian naval officer - or was he a double agent - and, in any case, I was asked to meet with the Prime Minister who confronted me with the facts. I did my best to smooth ruffled feathers, and fortunately Mr. Gandhi was sufficiently experienced in international relations to know that information on the Soviet vessel was a legitimate target for our Intelligence agencies.

Yes that same intention and reason will continue till this day for US Agencies.

Specially when an Akula-2 is being leased , The russian will suitably modify the signature of the submarine and suitably downgrade it , so that it will not affect their own operational capability.

When she comes , that would be a legitimate target for US Intelligence as they like to put it.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 04 Aug 2009 17:25

Austin wrote:He prolly means another 3 more Arihant , the 13 may be typo

He (R.Adm Moraes) has specifically mentioned that we need 4-5 SSBN's and 9 SSN's -- see the Hindu link of the same news piece.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Aug 2009 17:41

rakall wrote:
Austin wrote:He prolly means another 3 more Arihant , the 13 may be typo
He (R.Adm Moraes) has specifically mentioned that we need 4-5 SSBN's and 9 SSN's -- see the Hindu link of the same news piece.

Yes , did he mentioned the time line , Every Admiral has one dream or the other , I grew up reading every admiral statement that we need 3 Carrier , but as of now we just have one and that too prolly in Dry Dock.

For all practical purpose , in the next 15 years we will have not more 3 Arhiant.

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 04 Aug 2009 17:44

Hi ... this could be the first real image of the Arihant. It was flashed for just a moment at a press conference at Kalpakkan in the presence of 50 odd journalists. I cannot independently verify the accuracy of this image. Neither was I present at this press conference. You can see it in this story done by my colleague Pallava Bagla.

Thanks
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV

http://www.tubaah.com/details.php?video_id=94638

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Aug 2009 17:51

Vishnu ji,

Thanks.

However, BR agents got that video before you went on air.