Indian Military Aviation

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Re: How will China react to Surkhet Air Strip for Indian Air For

Postby Rahul M » 08 Dec 2009 22:18

Niraj_D wrote:
TGW

How will China react to the fresh agreement made in between the Government of Nepal and India that allows the Southern neighbor, China’s arch rival, to construct an Air Base for the Indian Air Force in Surkhet?
..........



This might give us some tactical advantage in any possible conflict.
How will China react to this? Will see in Chinadaily very soon... :P
Any guesses before that? :lol:

no need to take it as gospel. it may not be true.
as far as we are concerned, it is NOT true unless someone from GOI confirms.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Juggi G » 08 Dec 2009 22:21



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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby negi » 10 Dec 2009 21:06

A commissioned officer has to serve his mandatory 20 years (permanent commission) before he/she chooses to not continue with the service ,so from his/her perspective I don't know how fair/apt it is to attribute his decision to money/monetary factors specially after having already spent the prime of his/her life with the forces.Like any other individual in any other field service personnel also quit when they feel they are not doing justice to their work ,not getting their due from the institution or may be even due to health issues yada yada.Don't know if this 101 number is to be taken that seriously.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby putnanja » 11 Dec 2009 04:18

Mirage math: Israel better than France

New Delhi, Dec. 10: Israel is close to swinging an order to upgrade French-origin Mirage 2000 aircraft with the Indian Air Force (IAF) despite France’s charm offensive in hosting the Indian military on the Champs Elysees.

Tel Aviv has offered to upgrade the frontline fighter aircraft, of which the IAF has three squadrons, at rates nearly 40 per cent less than the price quoted by the French.

Israel, whose chief of defence staff returns to Tel Aviv after visiting New Delhi this week for the first time since diplomatic relations were established in 1992, is also favoured to win an order for 18 quick-reaction surface-to-air missiles (QR-SAMs) from the Indian Army that could cost more than Rs 2,000 crore.
...
...
Defence ministry sources said the delegation led by Israeli defence services chief, General Gabi Ashkenazi, made presentations to the top brass, including the chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik, on the Mirage 2000 upgrade that Israel Aircraft Industries would carry out in collaboration with other firms.

In back-of-the envelope calculations, the cost of the Israeli bid totals Rs 96 crore per aircraft while the French bid is worth Rs 152 crore. The IAF has at least 51 Mirage 2000s.

The upgrade would include superior avionics and electronic warfare systems that would extend the service life of the aircraft by 15 years.
...
..
For the Spyder QR-SAM missile systems, the army may sign a contract within a month. The IAF has already contracted the Israelis for the systems.
...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby srai » 11 Dec 2009 07:29



My guess for Israeli upgrade would include subsystems already existing in the IAF:
* Radar - Elta 2035 (same from IN Harrier and LCA Mk. I program)
* SR-AAM - Python-5 (same from Spyder QR SAM which the IAF bought recently)
* BVR-AAM - Derby (same from Spyder QR SAM which the IAF bought recently)
* Israeli PGMs - Spice, LGBs etc w/ Lightening Pod (already used in the IAF)

That's why the Israelis probably can offer lower upgrade price relative to the French offer, which may include new weaponry not in the IAF's inventory such as MICA, AASM, etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 11 Dec 2009 09:16

if the israelis can refurbish the airframe its a viable option. I dont think even the french are talking of doing any improvement to the engine in their proposal.

I doubt anything is under warranty after so many years.

but what if the french refuse to share the electronic details of the core
computers and displays needed to interface the new radar and weapons? if they dont co-operate how will this work?

some sort of jugaad like a extra computer and a small LCD to control the israeli and yindu weapons might need to be rigged?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby andy B » 11 Dec 2009 09:52

^^^ GD saar just a thought yehudi + desi brains would be one of the most jugadu combos possible :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Dmurphy » 11 Dec 2009 10:32

Ok great. So Dassault and LM are now using the Mirage upgrade deal to gain a foothold in the MRCA competetion. So any tussle will spill over the MRCA as well.

Its best we keep them miles apart.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vina » 11 Dec 2009 10:39

but what if the french refuse to share the electronic details of the core
computers and displays needed to interface the new radar and weapons? if they dont co-operate how will this work?


I think it will be rip and replace of the entire mission computer and associated sytems. The Flight control systems anyway will be a separate fail safe system that will not be touched I think. Basically rip out the entire radar, nav/attack systems, the electronic warfare and the weapons and stores management systems. Basically put in industry standards COTS based stuff (Yindian/ Yehudi) and throw out the proprietary gold plated French stuff. That is how you can get 40% off from proprietary stuff.

Wont be surprised that after the "upgrade" the Mirage 2000 will end up with the exact same weapons fit as the IOC - Tejas Mk1 !.

That will be the ultimate irony. India would have jumped right into a Mirage 2005 equivalent aircraft with the LCA , jumping over the A/B etc versions!.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby viveks » 11 Dec 2009 10:52



Isreal would do a gr8t job. Actually, I kinda favoured them over ruskiz for the Mg-21 upgrade program. Lots of goodiz & experience under their belt for that particular aircraft. I looked at their upgraded cockpit...impressive!

Actually...india could buy the RDY Radar from the french and have it integrated & installed by them.
Last edited by viveks on 11 Dec 2009 10:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vavinash » 11 Dec 2009 10:53

Why go with El-2032? El-2052 would be a far better choice if it is ready.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Dmurphy » 11 Dec 2009 11:19

This thread is now being just like how GD descibed some other thread the other day
Singha wrote:sadly this thread sounds like pak generals in rawalpindi discussing who will get malleswaram and who will get jayanagar once their armour divs conquer bangalore in kerala :((

:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby viveks » 11 Dec 2009 11:44

Dmurphy wrote:This thread is now being just like how GD descibed some other thread the other day
Singha wrote:sadly this thread sounds like pak generals in rawalpindi discussing who will get malleswaram and who will get jayanagar once their armour divs conquer bangalore in kerala :((

:rotfl:


I think your statement is little premature. I was describing about workmanship....describing that is not something like a waste thread space.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby tsarkar » 11 Dec 2009 11:51

Solution is to train more pilots, not to gray the force profile by retaining oldies. Massively increase the training infrastructure and farm out pilots whose career progression seem unlikely. Very rarely anyone over 40 makes good fighter pilots. The air force could hold “campus recruitment” for these chaps. I only Air India is presently allowed to recruit from the IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunny y » 11 Dec 2009 11:59

Looks like somebody is visiting Bharat Rakshak :D

IAF goes hi-tech for pilot selection

http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/200 ... ction.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby bart » 11 Dec 2009 15:27

Singha wrote:
but what if the french refuse to share the electronic details of the core
computers and displays needed to interface the new radar and weapons? if they dont co-operate how will this work?


If they refuse to co-operate they should be blacklisted for future weapons purchases. b

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SagarP » 11 Dec 2009 15:49

sunny y wrote:Looks like somebody is visiting Bharat Rakshak :D

IAF goes hi-tech for pilot selection

http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/200 ... ction.html


Why not in SSB Dehradun also.... I cleared my PABT there :!:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 12 Dec 2009 00:28

The Mirage upgrade probly will go to the frenchies for geopollitical reasons imho. The cost is probly due to the weapons package (none of which exist in the current IAF inventory). Still, there should be some effort to integrate 3rd party weapons (israeli PGMs, crystal maze etc). As far as Israel's ability to do the needful; there is v.little doubt. THey have tinkered with enough a/c (including french designs, Kfir anyone?) not to be able to do a competent job.

Thing is the french were expecting the MRCA to go their way and were almost assured of this; after that let down, I think the GOI will give 'em some consolation baksheesh. For all their fancy prices, the French have been pretty solid supporters of India at international fora on issues that the GOI considers important. Doubt the guvermand will jeopardize that kind of support by leaving the frenchies cold, not for 500 odd million $$s.

CM.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 12 Dec 2009 11:55

CM, the IAF Mirages are already wired to carry the Crystal Maze. Saw it in an album posted on BRF- its shown on a board in AI 09 that said that. it needn't be done as part of an upgrade.

check the second board

Service clearance issue for
- Legend (whatever that is)
- Crystal Maze

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 12 Dec 2009 13:25

Kartik wrote:CM, the IAF Mirages are already wired to carry the Crystal Maze. Saw it in an album posted on BRF- its shown on a board in AI 09 that said that. it needn't be done as part of an upgrade.

check the second board

Service clearance issue for
- Legend (whatever that is)
- Crystal Maze


Nice, I thought it was just a rumor; good to see confirmation. Thanks.

CM.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 13 Dec 2009 20:26

India in no hurry to sign CISMOA with US
Ajay Kaul

New Delhi, Dec 13 (PTI) India has made it clear to the US that it is in no hurry to sign CISMOA, a defence pact which provides for installation of American communication systems on US-made military aircraft with certain guarantees.

The Indian view on signing of Communication Inter-operability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) was conveyed to the American side during the recent visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Washington, sources said here.

The US side was told that the issue is under consideration of Indian government and "we will see", they said.

The US has been pushing India to sign the CISMOA as it intends to enhance the inter-operability of the Indian and American forces.

It ensures secrecy of its C4ISR (command, control, communications, computer, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) systems.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya G » 13 Dec 2009 22:40

Kartik wrote:Service clearance issue for
- Legend (whatever that is)
- Crystal Maze


Legend? :?:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Dec 2009 10:12

India to test fly light combat helicopters by month-end

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article64789.ece

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kersi D » 14 Dec 2009 11:41

Kartik wrote:CM, the IAF Mirages are already wired to carry the Crystal Maze. Saw it in an album posted on BRF- its shown on a board in AI 09 that said that. it needn't be done as part of an upgrade.

check the second board

Service clearance issue for
- Legend (whatever that is)
- Crystal Maze


MY QUESTION. INANSWERED SINCEA LONG TIME.

WHAT IS CRYSTAL MAZE ?????

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sombhat » 14 Dec 2009 11:45

The most informative part of the Hindu article:

LCH would also have a weaponised version, similar to ALH.


:roll:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby krishnan » 14 Dec 2009 11:55

Kersi D wrote:
Kartik wrote:CM, the IAF Mirages are already wired to carry the Crystal Maze. Saw it in an album posted on BRF- its shown on a board in AI 09 that said that. it needn't be done as part of an upgrade.

check the second board

Service clearance issue for
- Legend (whatever that is)
- Crystal Maze


MY QUESTION. INANSWERED SINCEA LONG TIME.

WHAT IS CRYSTAL MAZE ?????


http://www.deagel.com/Standoff-Weapons/ ... 70005.aspx

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 14 Dec 2009 14:29


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby KrishG » 14 Dec 2009 14:41

abhishek_sharma wrote:India to test fly light combat helicopters by month-end

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article64789.ece


A ‘baby’ of the Bangalore-headquartered defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the first prototype of LCH is expected to take to the skies between December 26 and December 29, a senior HAL official told PTI here on Monday.


The new light chopper is currently undergoing functional tests, and is expected to be ready for ground run by December 24.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya G » 14 Dec 2009 17:54



The Indian Air Force (IAF) had proposed the procurement of six Flight Refueller Aircraft to meet the growing Air-to-air Refuelling tasks in the IAF and Indian Navy.

This confirms that the Indian Navy already benefits from the IFR. As usual the Navy does not publicise this development - good on them.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Dmurphy » 15 Dec 2009 09:36

Indian Refueler Program May Be Rebid
NEW DELHI - India's purchase program for six midair refuelers may be rebid after questions arose regarding bid cost and competitiveness, Indian Defence Ministry sources said.

"The procurement proposal had been progressed in accordance with the Defence Procurement Procedure-2006 and thereafter referred to the Ministry of Finance, who has expressed certain reservations relating to the competitiveness of the bids and the reasonableness of the price," says a Dec. 14 Defence Ministry release, quoting the official reply of Defence Minister A. K. Antony to India's Parliament.

Though the release does not specify the program is facing serious problems, Defence Ministry sources said that because of objections from the Finance Ministry, the program will be quashed and rebid next year.

Four years ago, a request for proposal was sent to U.S.-based Lockheed Martin and Boeing, EADS and Ilyushin of Tashkent.

Lockheed Martin and Boeing did not respond to the tender, leaving only Ilyushin and EADS in the fray.

Ilyushin's bid was lower than that of EADS but the Air Force favored buying the A330 multirole tanker over the IL-78 of Ilyushin, which it had been using. The matter was referred to the Finance Ministry, which rejected the Air Force request, saying the lowest bidder should be the obvious choice.
SO LM and Boeing will both enter the fray this time around. And in all probability they'll win, with the way things are going on these days.

This is Strike 2 by the Americans after hijacking the Mirage upgrade deal earlier.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 15 Dec 2009 09:49

What?? The A330 is not a done deal?

Guess time to make way for the Amriki refuellers if previous trends are anything to go by...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Suppiah » 15 Dec 2009 13:00

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/ ... -probe.htm

Dhruv crash results verified independently thru US by Ecuadorians and now they agree that it is pilot error, if this REDIFF / PTI report is true..should be good news for HAL.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 15 Dec 2009 13:03

Dmurphy wrote:.......
This is Strike 2 by the Americans after hijacking the Mirage upgrade deal earlier.

am I missing something here ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby manojmr » 15 Dec 2009 19:00

Just 300 crore :(( any cents

Two ministries of the austerity-conscious Congress-led United Progressive Alliance Government are locked in an argument over the right price to pay for the purchase of 12 helicopters to ferry VIPs.

The Defence Ministry has almost finalised a deal to buy the helicopters for Rs 3,600 crore from Italian aviation company Agusta Westland but the Finance Ministry has objected to the price.

The Finance Ministry’s dissenting note says that the price of approximately Rs 300 crore for one helicopter -- Rs 3,600 crore for 12 -- is way too expensive.

The planned outlay for this purchase when it was given an approval was just Rs 1,400 crore.

The Finance Ministry is also not convinced how the Defence Ministry narrowed the selection to a single vendor.

Another red flag is a letter written by the MP from Daman to the Central Vigilance Commission and the Prime Minister’s Office alleging that technical parameters were diluted to push for the contract.

The two ministries have been communicating with each other about the helicopters for five months.

CNN-IBN learns the Defence Ministry is pushing for acquiring the helicopters though each costs as much as a frontline fighter aircraft. :((

If the VIP chopper deal comes through, this would be the third such purchase.

The Government has already decided to buy five Embraer jets and a deal for three Boeing Luxury jets is being prepared.

US President Barack Obama’s administration scrapped a plan to purchase presidential helicopters as an austerity measure.

The Indian government should perhaps make a note.


http://ibnlive.in.com/news/choppers-for ... ml?from=tn

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby symontk » 15 Dec 2009 19:27

I saw an helicopter yesterday hovering around HAL Airport, probably a LCH. There was also a definite roar of a jet engine around 6PM yesterday, Kaveri testing???. Also in the morning, saw one oversized flatbed truck covered around HAL premises.

Hope something good is happening

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby putnanja » 16 Dec 2009 00:16


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sumshyam » 16 Dec 2009 00:46

I don't know where to put it..I looked for a specific thread but....was :eek: ...!
So...I am putting it here...mods..please consider relocating it to proper thread...!

IAF To Use Israeli Systems In Mirage Upgrade

Defence Ministry officials said that the cost of the Israeli bid totals $19.2 million per aircraft while the French bid is worth $30.4 million. The IAF has at least 51 Mirage 2000s and the upgrade would include superior avionics and electronic warfare systems that would extend the service life of the aircraft by 15 years.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Katare » 16 Dec 2009 07:22


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Dec 2009 08:00

sumshyam wrote:I don't know where to put it..I looked for a specific thread but....was :eek: ...!
So...I am putting it here...mods..please consider relocating it to proper thread...!

IAF To Use Israeli Systems In Mirage Upgrade

Defence Ministry officials said that the cost of the Israeli bid totals $19.2 million per aircraft while the French bid is worth $30.4 million. The IAF has at least 51 Mirage 2000s and the upgrade would include superior avionics and electronic warfare systems that would extend the service life of the aircraft by 15 years.


Doubt it will happen. But if it does, can the israelis please do something about the poor thrust on the Mirage 2000 as well? Ahem, perhaps fulfill uno jingo's fantasy of seeing an AL-31 propelled Vajra. :D

CM


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