Indian Military Aviation

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 25 Sep 2010 08:15

Indian Air Force to Withdraw 20 Helicopters from United Nations Missions by 2011

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Sep 2010 11:43

putnanja wrote:Kartik, it was reported in the Military Safety thread, but good to have it here too.

Look Ma! We fished out a MiG pilot

“We are very proud because we rescued a soldier of the country, someone who protects our country. I feel as if we have done a service to the nation,” Ashok said.
...
...

Its wonderful to see the rescuers pride in having saved "a soldier of the country".

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Sep 2010 14:51

Indian Air Force to Withdraw 20 Helicopters from United Nations Missions by 2011

The Indian Air Force is to withdraw its 20 helicopters from the UN peace-keeping missions beginning November this year in a phased manner.

Defence Ministry sources said in New Delhi today, the de-induction decision was taken after the IAF found itself hard-pressed for choppers while extending logistical help to paramilitary forces in anti-maoist operations. The withdrawal will be completed by June 2011.

Expect a major push against the Maoists aided by the AF by the end of 2011. Considering the new Mi-17s start coming in by the end of this year, there was no real need for this withdrawal unless there's something huge around the corner.

JMT.

kit · Post by **kit** » 25 Sep 2010 16:39

Interesting developments., could have some impact on some programmes in India

An unmanned close support aircraft
A new Bomber

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... rt-by.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... putin.html

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Sep 2010 20:53

An MiG-27 aircraft crashed in West Bengal in February near the Hashimara military base, killing the pilot and causing all MiG-27 flights to be suspended for a short period of time.

Another MiG-27 plane crashed into a village in the region in July during a routine training flight, killing a local resident and injuring 10 others.

Two MiG-27 aircrafts crashing within 3 months of coming out of a "grounding due to engine faults" is really not very heartening news...

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 26 Sep 2010 10:35

IAF opens up flying branch to men in short-service http://www.zeenews.com/news657668.html

New Delhi: To increase pilot strength, the Indian Air Force has revised norms to allow men in Short Service Commission (SSC) to join its flying branch, hitherto a privilege enjoyed only by SSC women officers.

"In order to increase inductions, IAF has revised the SSC scheme in flying branch and made it applicable to both men and women instead of keeping it exclusive for women only," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik has said in an interview.

The interview will appear in the next issue of Defence Ministry's 'Sainik Samachar' in which Naik also talks about the dwindling strength of the IAF's fighter squadrons, but exudes confidence that the existing fleet along with latest sensors was "fully capable" of meeting all operational tasks.

Naik said the IAF had also made changes to the SSC entry scheme for officers to make it more attractive to the youth.

"A number of measures have been proposed, which includes payment for lump sum leave after certain period of service, professional enhancement training leave up to two years in the 13th and 14th year of service, ex-servicemen status after initial term of engagement, and eligibility to Ex-Servicemen Contributory Health Scheme after 10 years of service," he said.

SSC officers usually join the force for a five-year service, extended to 14 years if the officers desire so. IAF has about 1,300 pilots, all of whom are permanent officers, except for women pilots. Of the 12,200 sanctioned officer strength, the IAF is short of about 1,500 officers.

On the IAF's squadron strength, Naik said, "The strength of fighter squadrons in the IAF has been reducing over the last few years. Though the numbers may have reduced, the IAF is fully capable of meeting all its operational tasks."

This, he said, was possible due to induction of air dominance Sukhoi fighter jets, major upgrades of existing fleet such as MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s, and induction of force multipliers, sensors and other assets.

Naik pointed out that the force multipliers such as the Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) and air-to-air refuellers added to the potential of the IAF "exponentially".

"The procurement strategy has anticipated the reduction in numerical strength and therefore the inductions have been planned accordingly," he added.

Noting that IAF was undergoing "a major transformation", Naik said the Defence Ministry had taken several steps for indigenisation, including incentives to industry for manufacturing components for defence equipment, employing Information Technology solutions and upgrading software.

"Indigenisation has been achieved in many areas like licensed production of Su-30 aircraft by HAL, avionics and other systems for MiG-29s and Jaguar aircraft," he said.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 26 Sep 2010 11:19

^^^ Wish they would increase the age limit for applying for the forces... Would help in increasing the officer base...

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 26 Sep 2010 14:04

PTI confirms...

Two Additional Phalcon AWACS for Indian Air Force: Press Trust of India

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 26 Sep 2010 21:10

AK Antony to Discuss Pacts Facilitating Defence Purchases
DNA

AK Antony to Discuss Pacts Facilitating Defence Purchases
DNA / Suman Sharma
Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:42 IST

AK Antony will take up contentious bilateral agreements that would pave the way for purchase of crucial defence equipment costing billions of dollars when he visits the US next week.

The cabinet committee on security affixed its stamp of approval on Friday on the agenda for the defence minister’s visit beginning September 27.

A ministry source said Antony would discuss CISMOA (communication and information security memorandum of agreement), LSA (logistic support agreement) and BECA (basic exchange and cooperation agreement for geo-spatial cooperation) with his American counterpart. These agreements are crucial to execution of defence deals between the two countries.

Elaborating, minister of state for defence Pallam Raju said, “The agreements would also enable Washington to share critical technologies. It could be construed as the US administration reposing faith in India given our good track record as a credible partner.”

Washington has repeatedly said that transfer of technology rested on signing of bilateral pacts. These agreements have been long pending and have affected big-ticket defence purchases from the US.

American giants Lockheed Martin and Boeing are participating in the world’s single-largest $12-billion defence deal for supplying 126 fighter jets, F-16 and F-18, respectively, to Indian Air Force.

The deals would be executed once the agreements are signed, ministry sources said.

The other deals in the pipeline are for buying M-777 ultra-light howitzers, C-17 heavy transport aircraft, Additional C-130J transport aircraft, mostly through the direct foreign military sale route.

Antony’s two-day reciprocal visit will involve meetings with US secretary of state Robert Gates and national security advisor General James Jones. His 10-member delegation will include Lt General Bikram Singh and Vice-Admiral DK Joshi, who are slated to be the next chiefs of the army and navy.

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Sep 2010 21:19

SriSri wrote:PTI confirms...

Two Additional Phalcon AWACS for Indian Air Force: Press Trust of India

Is the airframe for the next AWACs going to be the Il-76 or has there been a change of plan?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 26 Sep 2010 21:39

SSC - Are they going to keep the length of tenure the same but just open it up to SSC candidates? Considering the huge cost and time needed to train a pilot, 5 years seems short

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 26 Sep 2010 22:45

What are the options IAF have other than IL-76

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 27 Sep 2010 10:47

New RFPs issued for IAF 6 tankers deal...

Aerospace Companies to Submit Proposals for Indian Air Force Mid-Air Refueling Aircrafts Deal

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 27 Sep 2010 12:16

sum wrote:Is the airframe for the next AWACs going to be the Il-76 or has there been a change of plan?

Not sure.. When it comes to the mid-air refueling aircraft deal, IAF doesn't prefer the IL-78..

Aerospace Companies to Submit Proposals for Indian Air Force Mid-Air Refueling Aircrafts Deal
...
The Indian Air Force is said to have made it clear that it was not in the favor of continuing the Russian origin IL 78 aircraft as its mid-air tanker of the future. The Russian aircraft was the only other contender in the ongoing contract but was rejected by the IAF, which found the Airbus a superior tanker.
...

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 27 Sep 2010 13:17

Hunt Begins for Refuelling Aircraft
The Indian Express

sombhat · Post by **sombhat** » 27 Sep 2010 13:26

Juggi G wrote:Hunt Begins for Refuelling Aircraft
The Indian Express

IMHO Nice ploy by MOD. By including life-cycle costs, they can make the IL 78s look almoast as costly as the A330s, and maybe the MOF will take the bait.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 27 Sep 2010 13:37

I have started having a feeling that our defense procurement is no more than a circus....The new RPF has also been sent to Russia... When we dont want to buy IL 78, why these stupid things?? And how will Airbus become cheaper this time if it was very costly last time?

Life cycle costs.. huh?? Didn't we hear life cycle cost concept removed from MMRCA as it is too vague and cannot be estimated with clarity, certainty and objectivity?? Again, this being made part of the RPF???

We are caught in some vicious circle that does not end...To make things worse, we dont have leaders that have balls to break such circles.. The only light at the end of tunnel is both TSP and PRC are involved in their internal issues and hence our ill preparedness is not exposed...But it will not be forever...

I hope we are not heading for CWG type of scenario in defense planning as well...

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 27 Sep 2010 17:16

^^^ Life cycle costs for a Transport/AAR is fair more easily calculated than for a Complex Machine as a jet fighter which needs maintaince not just for its Frame and Engines but also vast array of sensors. While life cycle costs for the Airframe and engines can be estimated in India sensors degrade erratically in the subcontinent due to a vastly different operational envoirment than the host countries.

if in Project finance life cycles of Ships and Airliners can be quantified then doing it for a mil transport/AAR should not be rocket science.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 27 Sep 2010 18:46

sum wrote: Is the airframe for the next AWACs going to be the Il-76 or has there been a change of plan?

IAF is buying the same stuff, all the follow on orders will be based on the IL-76. The last Phlacon has a few updates which are likely to continue.

nrshah wrote:I have started having a feeling that our defense procurement is no more than a circus....The new RPF has also been sent to Russia... When we dont want to buy IL 78, why these stupid things?? And how will Airbus become cheaper this time if it was very costly last time?

Life cycle costs.. huh?? Didn't we hear life cycle cost concept removed from MMRCA as it is too vague and cannot be estimated with clarity, certainty and objectivity?? Again, this being made part of the RPF???

We are caught in some vicious circle that does not end...To make things worse, we dont have leaders that have balls to break such circles.. The only light at the end of tunnel is both TSP and PRC are involved in their internal issues and hence our ill preparedness is not exposed...But it will not be forever...

I hope we are not heading for CWG type of scenario in defense planning as well...

1. Russia was sent the RFP because its a competition and all those can compete are sent RPF, now its upto Russia to send some other refueller if it thinks IL-78 is not fit.
2. Russian aircrafts traditionally are very cheap to acquire and very expensive to maintain and vice-versa for the western aircrafts and hence at the end both are pretty much par.
3. AFAIK Life cycle cost are still in the MMRCA equation (Some people say otherwise, its controversial). LCC is not that difficult to calculate accounting wise but it doesn't necessarily will turn up to be accurate. I am not sure but Airline companies do take a look at LCC while purchasing Airplanes and their calculations are quite close.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 27 Sep 2010 20:36

1. Russia was sent the RFP because its a competition and all those can compete are sent RPF, now its upto Russia to send some other refueller if it thinks IL-78 is not fit.
2. Russian aircrafts traditionally are very cheap to acquire and very expensive to maintain and vice-versa for the western aircrafts and hence at the end both are pretty much par.
3. AFAIK Life cycle cost are still in the MMRCA equation (Some people say otherwise, its controversial). LCC is not that difficult to calculate accounting wise but it doesn't necessarily will turn up to be accurate. I am not sure but Airline companies do take a look at LCC while purchasing Airplanes and their calculations are quite close.

You are not getting me...Say, if russians opt for the competition, can we drop them? We have to go for all the trials and tests knowing well we are rejecting them. All though, RPF will be free of cost, what about crucial time that we will spend on the aircraft???

I think (and i know does not matter what i believe) we should be more concerned about the upfront capital cost as of now... The armed forces need massive modernization and expansion with limited budget...This is where low upfront cost will help us achieve the desired level. As economy grows, we can pay for higher maintaining costs.

I dont have data or other details. hence will remain neutral

Disclaimer - I am not here to promote russian product by being proponent of low upfront cost products. I only want we have required capacity... Having 12 IL 78 is always better than having 6 IL 78 and a running RPF for a decade...

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Sep 2010 21:10

Disclaimer - I am not here to promote russian product by being proponent of low upfront cost products. I only want we have required capacity... Having 12 IL 78 is always better than having 6 IL 78 and a running RPF for a decade...

Good point...in the recent years, the only decent deals which have gone through are either FMS or single country Gov-gov deals...

Multi tender deals have gone nowhere with each tender still in RFI/RFP stage because the loser of the competition files a case or puts in a word to its trusted moles in the MoD about the jury being unfair and GoI promptly re-tenders...

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 28 Sep 2010 14:07

Top Firms Opt Out of Army Chopper Deal
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Sep 2010 14:11

^^ Well every time they are closer to deal some thing of this sort happens and the whole process gets delayed again and again.

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 28 Sep 2010 14:28

The article is kind of shaky! I mean

American ‘Bell Helicopter’ and Italian ‘ Agusta Westland’ have withdrawn their bids for the 197 Advance Light Helicopters (ALH)

seriously?

And it has been well known that only Kamov and Eurocopter had sent their aircrafts for field trials which was done already in India, so why now is this news appearing, its not as if the two companies have withdrawn now!

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 28 Sep 2010 14:55

Forget about containing PRC, there is a systematic lobby which is working to contain India... Almost all the tenders have some allegations or dispute raised knowing well that our DM under the auspices of his Mr. Clean Image will cancel the tender without thinking for the second...This way they can keep our forces in check...

And if some how, the tender is clear without any issues, there comes MOF which will find everything very costly except for the items that it, incl babus and ministers in sister branches will use..

I am sure we will see such allegations etc even in MMRCA from the losers whosoever they may be...

Yet another vicious circle...

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 28 Sep 2010 15:29

I guess the spares etc for A330 will be easier to obtain and cheap due to it's civilian avatars and the numbers.

I agree, the recent trend of floating the tenders, short listing and then scrapping the process has become a trend - artillery, helos, mid air refuellers have all gone down the same path.

For DM, his image is a higher priority than national interests.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 28 Sep 2010 21:43

Indian Delegation in Arms Talks With Washington

Indian Delegation in Arms Talks With Washington
By Vivek Raghuvanshi
Published: 27 Sep 2010 11:31

NEW DELHI - Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony has begun talks with U.S. officials in Washington to Win Approval to Purchase unspecified numbers of Weapons and Equipment that could be Inked during President Barack Obama's visit to New Delhi in November, said Indian Defence Ministry sources.

The Defence Ministry official said that while New Delhi is concerned over U.S. arms sales to Pakistan and the Continuation of U.S. Export Ccontrols against several Indian Entities, New Delhi wants to Increase Defense Ties with Washington.

Indian Defence Ministry sources said the Weapons under discussion will include Anti-Ballistic Missile Systems and the Sale of C-17 transport aircraft.

India plans to Procure the David's Sling and Iron Dome Missile Defense Systems.

David's Sling is a Joint Effort between Rafael of Israel and Raytheon of the United States.

New Delhi, which has Already Discussed the Program with Israel, also Needs to gets Clearance from Washington because it is a Joint Israel-U.S. program.

The Indian Military Wants David's Sling and Iron Dome to Protect Against Cruise Missiles.

The Indian Air Force Favors David's Sling because it is an Effective Hit-to-Kill Interceptor against Short-Range Ballistic Missiles, Rockets and Cruise Missiles.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 28 Sep 2010 21:56

Iron Dome - Wikipedia

David's Sling - Wikipedia

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 29 Sep 2010 09:06

Fort Delhi , Complete with Missiles and Sukhois
The Indian Express

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Sep 2010 09:08

Juggi G wrote:Top Firms Opt Out of Army Chopper Deal
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India

Can only hope and pray that the tender doesnt get canned. But given that a Amriki co has pulled out, chances of this tender going forward look bleak since GoTUS will surely armtwist GoI and knowing current GoI and love for US, they will readily oblige...

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 29 Sep 2010 13:12

Sarkozy eyes defence deals in Dec India visit

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/curren ... 87533.html

The one (contract) that is advanced enough to be signed during the visit is the modernisation of 51 Mirage 2000-H for 1.5 billion euros (USD 2 billion), the paper said.

Sarkozy's visit could also lead to the finalisation of a contract with nuclear group Arevawhich 18 months ago signed a memorandum of understanding for the construction of two reactors at Jaitapur in the Indian state of Maharashtra.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Sep 2010 23:05

Something to keep in mind regarding the Boeing 767 based tanker that will (most likely) be offered to the IAF in response to the RFI that it was sent recently. It uses a similar probe and drouge refuelling system but also the centerline boom unit that will not be required for the IAF. But it is the wing pods that are the major source of concern, and while it hasn't been sorted out fully as yet it might be sorted out in time for the IAF trials (if there will be any) since the USAF competition is looming.

ROME/WASHINGTON, Sept 28 (Reuters) - Boeing Co will deliver two long overdue refueling planes to Italy this year, but capability improvements will delay delivery of two more planes, the company and the Italian air force said on Tuesday.
Boeing has resolved problems with the planes' fuel-carrying wing pods that had caused their wings to flutter at high speeds, and delivery is now expected by the end of the year, a spokesman for the Italian air force said.

The delivery would come five years after the 767-based tankers were initially slated for arrival, and could coincide with a decision from the U.S. Air Force this fall on whether it will buy 179 refueling planes from Boeing or Europe's EADS at a cost of up to $50 billion.

The Italian air force declined to specify the exact nature of the modifications on the other two wide-body planes, saying they pertained to general operating capacity.

Boeing spokesman Bill Barksdale said the first two planes would have three operational air refueling systems -- the wing pods, a refueling boom and a centerline hose drum unit -- as planned in the company's 2002 contract with Italy.

He gave no details on when the next set of tankers would be delivered, or who was paying for the modifications, saying only that both Italy and Boeing had agreed "to further enhance the present capability."

Boeing officials have acknowledged in the past that they faced penalties for delays in the contract, but details have not been released.

The long delay in the Italian delivery might not be a major factor in the current U.S. tanker competition, given that past performance on similar contracts was now being judged on a "pass/fail" basis, said defense consultant Jim McAleese. However, it was embarrassing for Boeing, and could increase the "Air Force perception that the Boeing proposal is a higher-risk solution," he said.

Robbin Laird, co-founder of the Second Line of Defense aerospace Website, said he was troubled about Boeing's decision to delay delivery of the second batch of refueling planes.
"If you've really solved the problems, you could deliver all four tankers," Laird said, questioning when Italy would be able to use the first two planes to bring fuel to fighter planes.
"If they want to build the tanker for the U.S. Air Force, they should be able to demonstrate that they can build a relatively simple tanker for the Italians," Laird said.

complete article link

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Sep 2010 23:51

since the B767 is no longer in production for civilian role and mostly the civilian ones are being pushed to cargo, with a trailing edge engine/avoinics/wing etc etc....how does it compare overall to the A330-300 which is in full production for the MCLR role, presumably with
much newer avionics and engine? and being european it will have 3 hoses for us?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Sep 2010 00:23

Singha wrote:since the B767 is no longer in production for civilian role and mostly the civilian ones are being pushed to cargo, with a trailing edge engine/avoinics/wing etc etc....how does it compare overall to the A330-300 which is in full production for the MCLR role, presumably with
much newer avionics and engine? and being european it will have 3 hoses for us?

who said that its not in production for the civilian airliner role ? it is very much in production and just 2 days ago I saw a freshly painted brand new JAL 767 outside the Everett factory. I've seen LAN 767s also and they've also built a few brand new 767 freighters for UPS and Fedex. The line is a lot quieter than the 777, 747 or 787 ones but it is not closed.

BTW, in anticipation of winning the USAF's tanker contest, Boeing has already started making huge changes at its Everett plant, including setting up a new assembly line for the 767 tanker. While this is in no way an indication that they've won, it shows how they are trying to stay ahead of the curve by preparing infrastructure for a large assembly line to be ready in time for the announcemen of the winner. If they lose, they'll dedicate the line space to the 787 instead.

My guess is that they will offer a 767-NG (New Gen) tanker, which will be broadly similar to that offered to the USAF for the tanker role. It has a cockpit that is based on the 787 with 4 main large screen electronic displays..so avionics will get a big refresh and in general be similar to that of the 787. And there will be modifications made to the wings, such as blended winglets that add range by reducing drag and fuel burn and improve performance..plus some armour and other protection measures to make it safer to operate inside and near combat zones. the 767-NG featured a receptacle to allow it to be tanked in mid-air but the IAF's A-50EI AWACS are equipped with a probe for the same, so the IAF may want that. Of course, any feature that is not available on the existing Boeing 767 tanker or not part of the USAF's Boeing 767 NG proposal is going to mean added cost and added risk.

if the A-330 MRTT has the above features then it should be the favourite, no question about it. But then again, we don't really know how the IAF will evaluate them and what factors the IAF is listing out for its tanker requirements. in general, the 767 has a smaller footprint that will allow it to operate from smaller airfields than the larger A-330.

Airframe wise, the A-330 is definitely newer (being a contemporary of the 777) and will feature more composites and possibly easier maintenance as it was designed in the 1990s, compared to the 1980s for the 767. There has been and will be very few changes made to the 767 airframe for the NG proposal AFAIK.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Sep 2010 10:09

If the Boeing / Airbus proposals win, then they can handle both the IFR capable IAF aircraft as well as the C 17. Currently the C17 cannot be handled by the IL 78.

So would like to see either in the IAF colours.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 01 Oct 2010 14:51

India Issues Fresh Request for Tanker Purchase
Flight International

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Oct 2010 14:56

^^Now that Boeing is onboard in this round of tender, we all know who the final winner will be...

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 01 Oct 2010 15:18

self del

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Oct 2010 15:38

the C17 can manage without AAR in india service. it has enough range on internal fuel to cover the country and is not a long loiter surveillance or bomber platform. so it should not be an issue.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Oct 2010 15:45

the A330MRTT seems to have 2 wing hoses and a tail probe unlike our Midas who replace the tail probe with another hose kit. so Midas can refuel 3 fighters in parallel while MRTT can do 2.

http://www.a330mrtt.com/Multimedia/Video.aspx