Indian Military Aviation

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Apr 2010 19:33

His statement WRT reverse engineering (RE) is more because of frustrationS. India heads in the right direction only to loose steam and then the cycle starts all over again.................. years later. Someone had to call a spade a spade and I for one am very glad he did it. RE, I would think, would be the worst case scenario and not the norm.

No matter what the case is, "India" needs to become a proactive society.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Apr 2010 19:48

* Very UNHAPPY ( didn't hide his disgust) with the LCA project since the last 20 years when he has been hearing about it. Hopes that the project has at least turned the corner and wil deliver.

well I don't blame him, if a project starts tentatively in 1983, full-fledged development is ready to be launched in 1989 but the govt starts the funding only in 1991, you can guess where the delays start seeping into the project. even that couple of years would have made a huge difference in the final timeline. everything else remaining the same, much of the delay due to the '98 sanctions would also have been avoided had we started earlier. that's 3-4 years loss easily.

one can only hopes we don't repeat the folly during FGFA.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Apr 2010 20:43

sum wrote:* Very UNHAPPY ( didn't hide his disgust) with the LCA project since the last 20 years when he has been hearing about it. Hopes that the project has at least turned the corner and wil deliver.

Quite unusual for a serving official at the rank of Air Chief to criticise the project and that too at this stage of development , but chief will have the last word.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 11 Apr 2010 21:31

regarding GAGAN, by providing 3m positional accuracy in all weather conditions and complemented by a GBAS can perhaps enable a CAT-3 system

to enable these standards at remote and weather impacted airfields like in NE or on ships in the IOR, a portable GBAS may be needed. Any plans in this direction?

With almost all of Navy ships having heli decks and 3 aircraft carriers, it makes sense to develop such a ground system

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Apr 2010 21:35

Austin wrote: Quite unusual for a serving official at the rank of Air Chief to criticise the project and that too at this stage of development , but chief will have the last word.

Absolutely. I expected him to say the usual goody-goody things but his first reaction was to shake the head and say that he has never been impressed for all these 20 years when asked if he was happy with the way LCA project was shaping up.

Of course, he did add that the LCA will anyways be seeing squadron service very soon and is hoping all things would have fallen in place by then

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Apr 2010 07:20

Ajatshatru wrote:Perhaps the IAF also has to partly take the blame for the current imbroglio....some quarters hint the IAF tendency in the past to keep moving goal posts (as to specifications of LCA) as well as behaving more like a customer rather than being an active participant in the past also may be partly responsible for this perceived delay.

I believe there was a problem with both sides. I say "there was a problem" because, seriously - many of these issues ha not been discussed (believe it or not) at the highest levels until the last 10-15 years or so)

Up until the nineties there was a gap between HAL/DRDO (making promises they could not keep) and IAF (changing goalpost, suffering brochuritis). This led to mutual contempt but the real effect was sanctions, shortage of strategic spares at the worst possible time, and phoren exporters sitting on high seat and laughing all the way to the bank.

I do know for a fact that these issued were discussed at the highest levels. About 10 years ago I got to know of management course in a state of the art Management campus attended by IAF officers where they were presented with the very dilemmas we have discussed on here
1) Delays in indigenous design and production
2) Dependence on phoren as a result
3) Sanctions and loss of capability
4) More dependence on phoren

So at least the issues are now known at the highest levels and the younger IAF officers who will erach seniority in future will all have a good idea os the vicious circle of problems.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Apr 2010 16:50

Jagan wrote: For some reason, there didnt seem to be even one clear picture of the BetAB 500 bomb on the net.

Oye Jagman - did you see the IAF Vayushakti 2010 BETAB videos?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 12 Apr 2010 17:52

shiv wrote:
Jagan wrote: For some reason, there didnt seem to be even one clear picture of the BetAB 500 bomb on the net.

Oye Jagman - did you see the IAF Vayushakti 2010 BETAB videos?

Certainly did - it was great seeing it in action.

Also recently got a picture of the Indian example .

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 Apr 2010 17:06

d-day Tuesday...

IAF to commission Phalodi air base on Tuesday

Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik will dedicate the Phalodi air field in Rajasthan to the service of the nation on Tuesday. The new airfield is considered as a step towards bridging gap in air defence in the western sector. The Phalodi airfield, replete with modern infrastructure.

The airbase is strategically located between Jaisalmer and Jodhpur will straddle the distance between the two airbases.
According to the IAF, the base is ready to undertake all types of operations. The inauguration ceremony will comprise flypast by various fighter formations and landing of first fighter aircraft at the base. Besides Air Chief Marshal Naik, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Southern Western Air Command (SWAC) Air Marshal P S Bhangu will also be present.

In April 2000, the Union Government, approved the construction of Phalodi air base with specific consideration to the geo-political scenario and the need for in-built flexibility in operational requirements. In July 2001, the IAF, established a Care and Maintenance Unit (C and MU) at Phalodi. The Government’s sanction for establishment of Air Force Station Phalodi was accorded with effect from July 2006, and the Station under SWAC has been functioning independently since then.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 15 Apr 2010 20:42

DRDO, IAF rapped for time, cost overruns in LCA project

"The committee concludes that this is a very sorry state of affairs. Even when 27 years have passed since LCA was sanctioned, it has still to see the light of the day," the parliamentary committee on defence said in its latest report tabled in Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha.

"All desired steps should be taken so that Tejas is operational by the stipulated timeframe and there is no further cost escalation," the report said.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Apr 2010 20:49

the one really getting the rap should be the MOD.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 16 Apr 2010 11:24

First India MRO For Russian Aircraft Opens
AVIATION WEEK

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 16 Apr 2010 11:34

Juggi G wrote:First India MRO For Russian Aircraft Opens
AVIATION WEEK

thats great news..long overdue.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 16 Apr 2010 21:34

IJT in IAF colours. Courtesy: Livefist.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Apr 2010 23:07

the Sitara is a real beauty..very delicate acquiline nose and a nice planform. A real looker. I'll be so happy to see a picture of a row of Sitaras parked at Bidar or Hakimpet..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Apr 2010 23:56

Kartik wrote:the Sitara is a real beauty..very delicate acquiline nose and a nice planform. A real looker. I'll be so happy to see a picture of a row of Sitaras parked at Bidar or Hakimpet..

This project is the best example of what an etablished 'domestic industrial base' can do to a country...bravo!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Apr 2010 23:57

and deceptively small looking. comparing to the size of the pilot, its a fairly big plane.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 17 Apr 2010 03:17

Is that plumbing for a IFR probe?

Shameek wrote:IJT in IAF colours. Courtesy: Livefist.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 17 Apr 2010 03:32

nah, looks like some kind of strakes to regulate the airflow.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 17 Apr 2010 07:34

something related to recover from a spin ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Apr 2010 07:41

I think it's just a painted stripe - I doubt if funny aerodynamic surfaces will be introduced with a repaint. Such a surface has never been seen in any earlier a/c and I still think only 1.5 prototypes are flying - that's Baldev in from of the plane in the livefist pic

Look at this

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/sitara-pt2.jpg

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 17 Apr 2010 07:55

shiv wrote:I think it's just a painted stripe - I doubt if funny aerodynamic surfaces will be introduced with a repaint. Such a surface has never been seen in any earlier a/c and I still think only 1.5 prototypes are flying - that's Baldev in from of the plane in the livefist pic

Look at this

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/sitara-pt2.jpg

There's a shadow below it - Jagan may be right - could be a strake.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Apr 2010 07:57

Yes but it is one heck of a lousy pic.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 17 Apr 2010 07:59

There is another pic on livefist if it is of any help

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... C00264.JPG

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 17 Apr 2010 09:16

I think its some surface.Saw something similar in the Phalcon refuelling pics on the phalcon itself.Will try to find it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2010 09:21

could be a conformal channel to route wires and such from the nosecone to avionics
bay on the cheap. missiles have these usually.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 18 Apr 2010 02:15

Short Service Commission Officers to Fly IAF Fighters
The Indian Express

Short Service Commission Officers to Fly IAF Fighters
Manu Pubby
Posted online: Saturday , Apr 17, 2010 at 0254 hrs
New Delhi

Battling a shortage of 1,343 officers, the Indian Air Force has started allowing short service commission officers fly fighter aircraft.

Officers who join the service for 14 years now get to fly fighter aircraft. Until now, only permanent commission officers were allowed to train for fighter operations.

It takes almost Four Years and Over Rs 4 Crore to Train a Fighter Pilot — short service officers will be able to do active fighter duty for a maximum of ten years. In the past, these officers had joined the helicopter and transport streams.

The acute shortage of officers in the flying branch — the IAF is over 300 pilots short against the sanctioned strength of 3,278, most in the fighter stream — seems to have necessitated the decision.

“To overcome the shortage of pilots, we have very recently started short service commission for fighter pilots also. Initially it was only for lady officers, now it has been started for fighter pilots. After 14 years, they will also be given an opportunity to leave,” a top IAF officer told a parliamentary panel after being questioned on the shortage of pilots.

The decision is also in line with the policy of creating more posts of short service officers in the armed forces and having a leaner cadre of permanent commission officers. There is also an urgent need for fighter pilots. Over the next decade, the IAF is expected to get close to 400 new Fighter Jets.

The first batch of short service commission fighter pilots will pass out at the end of this year.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 18 Apr 2010 09:35

45% of IAF air crashes due to human error

A whopping 45% of IAF air crashes in the last six years have taken place due to human error. The IAF has informed the parliamentary committee on defence that it had recorded a total of 74 air mishaps between April 2004 and March 2010, of which a high of 42% was due to technical faults in the aircraft and a mere six% due to bird-hit. The figures in percentage would mean the IAF has suffered 33 crashes out of 74 due to human errors, 31 due to technical errors in the aircraft and another 4 due to bird hit. Reasons for the remaining six crashes have not been given to the Committee.

The Committee, in its latest report submitted to Parliament, noted with concern that these mishaps were taking place in the backdrop of the IAF facing a crisis due to shortage of trainer aircraft and obsolescence of simulators for its pilot trainees. It pointed out with concern that the IAF's Hindustan Piston Trainer-32, a basic trainer aircraft, had remained grounded for over a year now following a mishap early last year and the Kiran Mk-II HJT-16 simulators were in disuse.

The committee, headed by Congress MP Satpal Maharaj, said the Defence Ministry should take all steps to acquire new trainer aircraft and upgrade the simulators "so that adequate training is provided for pilots, which would definitely result in reduction of accidents due to human failure." The IAF has faced problems with HPT-32's engine and airframe, even as it spared all its Kiran trainers (usually used for secondary flying training) to enable rookie pilots to learn flying skills.

It also had a gap in its training syllabus due to the lack of an Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) when pilots moved on from Kiran aircraft to MiG-21 supersonic fighter jets. After a protracted process lasting 20 years, the IAF contracted to buy 66 BAE's Hawk AJTs in 2004 and the first lot were inducted for training pilots in 2008.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Apr 2010 13:54

In 2009 Vayu Aerospace review had a great article that was mentioned on here by Philip and me, but it was never discussed. I found it again. It is a real gem and needs to be read, digested and discussed.

It is a 1.8 MB pdf

Please read and comment. It is a must for all aviation jingos..

http://rapidshare.com/files/377207669/c ... impler.pdf

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Apr 2010 14:13

it might be a strake as Jagan pointed out..there is also a new strake near the middle of the fin. It can be seen here in this pic from Shiv Aroor's blog but in any previous IJT picture one cannot see this fin strakes. For e.g this picture or this pic or this pic taken during the Nagpur heat soak trials

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Apr 2010 19:57

Maybe this has been added so that airflow can be better regulated to the air intakes. This is definitely a strake that has been added. Notice how its shadow protrudes onto the circular IAF-India insignia.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Apr 2010 21:21

Was going through the articles posted by Andy sir when i found this....

Another case in point was provided by a study commisioned by the United States Air Force to the potential vulnerabilities in their existing F-15c fleet. Completed by Boeing in 2002, the review included multiple, simulated air to air engagements performed by experienced pilots. Most shockingly the report concluded that in the hands of a well trained opponent who understood the intrinsic weak points of the F-15, the opposing Su-30 MKI could expect to defeat the Eagle every time.

The link to to the page

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Apr 2010 21:36

Bala Vignesh wrote:Was going through the articles posted by Andy sir when i found this....

Another case in point was provided by a study commisioned by the United States Air Force to the potential vulnerabilities in their existing F-15c fleet. Completed by Boeing in 2002, the review included multiple, simulated air to air engagements performed by experienced pilots. Most shockingly the report concluded that in the hands of a well trained opponent who understood the intrinsic weak points of the F-15, the opposing Su-30 MKI could expect to defeat the Eagle every time.
The link to to the page

It is said that the Swordfish planes, that were sent to sink the Bismark, were soooooo slow that the gunners on the Bismark, who had never practiced against such a slow threat, failed to hit most of them. "intrinsic weak point". Indeed.

I doubt that a MKI would actually go against a F-15 (but who knows) but it would be good that they train against all odds. I would be glad to nail the PAF and behead ISI.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Apr 2010 02:45

Gagan wrote:Maybe this has been added so that airflow can be better regulated to the air intakes. This is definitely a strake that has been added. Notice how its shadow protrudes onto the circular IAF-India insignia.

nah, you don't want to generate vortices right in front of the air intakes. You want buzz-free air entering the intakes. It must have been done after high-alpha tests revealed a need for vortex generation to aid in generating lift over the wing.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Apr 2010 03:20

Kartik wrote:
Gagan wrote:Maybe this has been added so that airflow can be better regulated to the air intakes. This is definitely a strake that has been added. Notice how its shadow protrudes onto the circular IAF-India insignia.
nah, you don't want to generate vortices right in front of the air intakes. You want buzz-free air entering the intakes. It must have been done after high-alpha tests revealed a need for vortex generation to aid in generating lift over the wing.

And for Yaw control (lateral/directional stability). Would somewhat explain the strake on the fin too?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Apr 2010 06:40

Could someone please point me to a clear picture of these new IJT "strakes" that does not require imagination and Sherlock Holmes-ing to see.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Apr 2010 06:53

Bala Vignesh wrote:Was going through the articles posted by Andy sir when i found this....

Another case in point was provided by a study commisioned by the United States Air Force to the potential vulnerabilities in their existing F-15c fleet. Completed by Boeing in 2002, the review included multiple, simulated air to air engagements performed by experienced pilots. Most shockingly the report concluded that in the hands of a well trained opponent who understood the intrinsic weak points of the F-15, the opposing Su-30 MKI could expect to defeat the Eagle every time.
The link to to the page

Check the file that I uploaded:

page 5

At Gwalior it was the "tin and rod" MiG 21s that gave trouble to the F-15s

Page 6

Theoretical studies showed that the loss ratio between the F-15 and the "earlier generation" MiG was to be 1 for 782 MiGs. Actual combat between F-15s and "aggressor" F-5s brought it down to 1 is to 18 in 1 vs. 1. In 2 vs, 2 the ratio was down to 1 for 4. In 4 vs 4 the ration tended towards 1: 1.82. In comparison to relative costs the F 5s actually won

David Siegel · Post by **David Siegel** » 19 Apr 2010 08:47

BAE (Once again) in talks to supply Hawk jets to India[/size]

http://idrw.org/?p=1344

David Siegel · Post by **David Siegel** » 19 Apr 2010 08:56

BTW, do we have any idea how many BaE Hawk Trainer we are operating for IAF?

There were reports that the HAL based Hawk assembly lines were not churning out the trainer aircraft in regular period due to faulty equipments supplied by BAE and there were situation of legal conflict also-- which did not materilaise as our defence contract does not talk about penalty on vendors.

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Apr 2010 09:06

^^^ +1. Why not give the link for the organization that actually put forth the story namely the UK’s Financial Times?

.

So here is the link from the UK's FT:

BAE in talks to supply Hawk jets to India