Indian Military Aviation

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Nov 2009 16:00

Still, the point is Hansa-4 has got a engine comparable in power to HPT-32 without any known problems, HPT-32 airframes can be used with them

it's not plug and play you know. in fact 'we' don't even know if the problem is with the engine or the aircraft's fuel system itself.

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 21 Nov 2009 17:54

Brando wrote:The most glaring problem with HAL it has no real domestic competitor.

Janaab Rahul saar! you remember DGCA designed few years ago a trainer aircraft called "SWATHI" and was built by another PSU giant BHEL! The aircraft while flying around palam,fell like a rock from the sky and the pilot named pushpinder singh (RIP) i think, died instantly! It was stated in the press ,structural failure was the cause of the crash! somebody did try to give HAL run for their money!Any way do you have any constructive plans to revamp HAL/to restructure HAL/ to improve HAL performance and to make it a La boeing-e-lockheed!? Shut down HAL is a last option ofcourse! you can consult barbora sahab for some more finer views about HAL! And also do not forget to ask him, which phirangi firm he wants to represent after retirement , like bell helicopters,IAI or Roboronexport or thales? or even NORINCO or CATIC? J-10 ,JF-17 thunder the bandar and last but not the least J-XXX have great potential in afro asian markets!

http://dgca.nic.in/accident/acc93.pdf

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 21 Nov 2009 19:55

Hindustan Aeronautics to fly light combat chopper soon
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/bus ... z0XVMYI6NW

A prototype of the light combat helicopter (LCH), designed and developed by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), is set for its maiden flight soon, a top company official said Friday.

“The prototype LCH is getting ready for a maiden test flight in the coming weeks. We are waiting for the final checks to be completed to commence flight trials,” HAL chairman and managing director Ashok Nayak told reporters here.

The 5.5-tonne LCH, a derivative of HAL’s advanced light helicopter (ALH) Dhruv, will be rolled out for anti-armour and anti-infantry roles by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian Army respectively.

Though the LCH was to take-off by August, HAL announced in September that the first flight would take place by this year-end or early January, as its overall weight had to be reduced by about 20 percent (580) kg.

“We have overcome the weight problem. The target weight will be achieved for a successful test flight,” a HAL copter division official told IANS later.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 21 Nov 2009 19:57

vasu_ray wrote:wrt to basic trainers, whats the big difference between a HPT-32 and Hansa-4 from Taneja aerospace? why can't the latter with suitable modifications
become IAF's choice?

Is the Hansa spinnable? (I dont know the answer)

The IAF has its own ASRs about rate of spin, recovery characteristics , glide ratio, hard field landing etc - the HPT was built to those specs. Not sure if the Hansa can meet all the specs. either way, it will take a long time to test it and then induct it.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 21 Nov 2009 21:16

“We have overcome the weight problem. The target weight will be achieved for a successful test flight,” a HAL copter division official told IANS later.

The most important part. If the weight issue is truly addressed in TD-1, then it would be a great success to HAL. Delivering to the actual design specs is what most of Indian defence products struggle to do.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 21 Nov 2009 22:03

http://sysavur.blogspot.com/2009/11/vic ... n-non.html

Last evening I had the pain of sitting through half hour (deduct the adverts time) of a non-debate - Why the Vice Chief of the Air Staff put his foot in his mouth by stating that if women want to become fighter pilots then they should not have children till the IAF/GoI recovers the cost of training.

So Sagarika Ghose assembled a panel of a lady (Director of ??), a former Cabinet Secretary, a fat-and-gone to seed Wg Cdr "Pappu" Bakshi (who was never a fighter pilot but always a glib talker) and former COAS Gen Roy Choudhary (now why did he allow himself to be on this panel? Nothing better to do?)

Tearing the VCAS to a few shreds, examples of USA, British and Chinese armed forces were quoted by the lady Director; Pappu defended the VCAS and quoted some of the same too but from the other side of the picture; the former Cabinet Secretary quoted scriptures but had nothing substantial to add or deduct; the former COAS said that women were in combat roles in pushing missile buttons and such droll things and the anchor called the VCAS "Vice Air Chief" (sic).

Women are in combat roles unless flying fighter aircraft is the only combat role.They fly on air maintenance flights, they carry out casualty evacuation, they walk on patrols and the Navy (with the usual bally-hoo)have trained two to fly as observers though they are already on some ships.

Why does Sagarika (if I may call her that) or the Lady Director think that flying fighter aircraft is the only combat role? When did India use a fighter aircraft in combat operations last - a decade ago in Kargil! When did the transport aircraft and helicopters fly air logistics or casualty evacuation last? Must be some time with the past week?

And, yes Lady Director there should gender equality - but which Corporate sector or private sector gives a lady 10 months off for having children? Do you give them off/maternity leave for all of 300 days in your organisation?

Finally, please do not insult the so called "non-combatants" (if by definition only flying fighter aircraft is combat role) because they are the ones facing fire from militants, naxalites and other enemies of the State.

And, Sagarika, some preparation would be nice! Especially on designations in the Armed Forces!!

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 21 Nov 2009 22:36

Rahul M wrote:
Still, the point is Hansa-4 has got a engine comparable in power to HPT-32 without any known problems, HPT-32 airframes can be used with them
it's not plug and play you know. in fact 'we' don't even know if the problem is with the engine or the aircraft's fuel system itself.

between the engine and the fuel system, since the engine has been procured and potentially in use with other countries, its the fuel system that would be suspect or quality control issues if the engine is manufactured locally

fuel cutoff didn't happen when the HPT was doing any maneuvers, but during normal flight and why would it crash instead of gliding or crash landing?
with all the experience in LCA development, how hard is it to lick the fuel system problem?

Jagan wrote:Is the Hansa spinnable? (I dont know the answer)

The IAF has its own ASRs about rate of spin, recovery characteristics , glide ratio, hard field landing etc - the HPT was built to those specs. Not sure if the Hansa can meet all the specs. either way, it will take a long time to test it and then induct it.

all those stunt planes are in the size of HPT or Hansa and they don't use special alloys for airframes, their engine power though is way high

anyways, we are past the point of evaluating other options, if IAF blames MoD for delays, IAF or HAL failed to give MoD options other than an
overseas tender when the problem was discovered

IAF buys trainers overseas while China manufactures commercial jets, if Barbora is commenting on this aspect, why doesn't IAF plan ahead and as end users affect the research, design & manufacturing phases?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Nov 2009 23:28

Cain Marko wrote:Sweet. Kartik, any information re. how many jags will receive the Darin III upg? Are they expecting to build any new airframes?

CM.

It actually also mentions that 2 Jag squadrons (likely the ones that sent to Oman, since the pictures showed the leading edges with RAM coatings) have been modified with stealth coatings.
AI didn't give too much detail, but its confirmed that the Jaguar DARIN III that was shown at Aero India 2009 is the one that we'll see. maybe the first ones to be upgraded will be the existing NAVWASS and DARIN I Jags. the Jaguar IM fleet is also earmarked for upgrade. Planned enhancements include addition of the latest navigation/attack system, along with an integrated electronic warfare pod.

Air International states that "The DARIN story is set to continue, as a proposal by HAL for a further Jaguar upgrade programme has recently been approved. At Aero India 2009, a mock up of the front section of a DARIN III Jaguar IS was on show. Its cockpit featured dual smart MFDs, liquid crystal display based engine and flight management systems, as well as an upgraded multi-mission computer already developed for DARIN II. The most notable difference could be seen externally, with the familiar chisel-nose replaced by a conical nose cone that will house an as-yet unknown multimode fire-control radar supplied by Elta.

Stealth modifications
In 1996 it was reported that the Composite Material Research Laboratory based in Hyderabad had developed stealth enhancements that had been test flown on the Jaguar. These are believed to consist of radar absorbent material tiles in the intakes and surface wave absorbent material sprayed onto the leading edges, which together reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by 70%. Two IAF Jaguar squadrons are believed to have adopted these stealth modifications with the MiG-21 Bison, MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 also considered for enhancement. the IAF would not be drawn on this matter, so the extent of these modifications is not clear."

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 22 Nov 2009 03:09

Shiv Aroor is reporting on his blog:
Countdown To First Flight Of India's Light Combat Helicopter

The stage is set for the first prototype (LCH TD-1) flight of the Indian Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), scheduled to take place next month. The TD-1 will be an unweaponised platform, and the test-flight schedule for this prototype will only be towards validating principle airframe, aerodynamics, maneoverability and airworthiness parameters. Weapons integration tests will only take place with the second prototype, TD-2, that is scheduled for a first flight sometime later in 2010.

He also has a photoart (is that a photoshopped pic, because it certainly looks so) on his blog.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 23 Nov 2009 11:18

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/ ... ton-dc.htm

Guru's,

Our PM was supposed to fly in new Air Force One(Indian) flight right ???
Why is he flying in Air-India ???

Sorry if this is posted in the wrong tread....

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 23 Nov 2009 12:37

Indian Air Force One is a Boeing 737 which is a short to medium haul airliner. It thus, does not have the range to fly to the US non-stop. A kangaoroo jump like flight profile would not have been desirable for the PM in terms of protocol and the time required for the flight. Hence, the option of an Air-India long haul jetliner.
Boeing 737 is suitable for India and Asia region..not beyond

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 Nov 2009 12:39

That is the Air India One, the PMs plane IIRC. Thats what i read.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Nov 2009 12:42

wiki gives BBJ range as

11,480 km (6,200 nm) 8 passengers;11,075km (5980nm) 25 passengers; 10,205km (5510nm) 50 passengers

that's not less than the 747 by much.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 23 Nov 2009 13:22

Avik wrote:Indian Air Force One is a Boeing 737 which is a short to medium haul airliner.

As far as I remember when we bought the Indian Air Force One ...the only difference between US Air Force One and Indian Air Force One was advance protection suite...and over 3-4 hours of more fuel in US version...

If the US Air Force One can fly half the world without refueling...then the Indian one shld atleast be able to fly from India to US....

Is it possible that our PM landed in Indian Air Force one flight in near by military airport and used Air India flight to reach the civilian airport...just a thought..security point of view not a wise decision though....

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 23 Nov 2009 13:40

Mahesh : The US Air Force One is a Boeing 747 ( a jumbo jet). The India Air Force One is a Boeing 737; a VIP version of the airliner that is commonly used by Jet Airways for flights in India and the Asian region.
Trust that clarifies the capability of the two aircrafts.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Nov 2009 14:13

the B737-700+ apparently has clearance for 180min etops. so flying off to mauritius/madagascar/SA in a emergency is possible. it could even fly off to antarctica if it deviates east towards australia to always maintain a 2000km separation from nearest recovery apt.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Nov 2009 18:17

I think the reason is 'capacity'. The BBJ may not be able to take the full executive entourage.

IIRC, the call sign for the PM's plane is always Air India 1 when outside Indian airspace. Within India, it goes under IAF control. No idea on call sign.

The president's helo had call sign Pratap-1 when it had that 'runway violation' incident in BOM.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Nov 2009 19:10

since Indian reach is expanding.. we need an AF base somewhere half way to amrikka

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 23 Nov 2009 22:14

not sure how reliable this, but here is a quote from someone on the airliners.net forum

Just read in the latest weekly report from atdb.org that the Indian Air Force will be buying 3 used 747-437 from Air-India. No indication on use: cargo conversion, VIP or role.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Nov 2009 22:17

the 747 can hardly operate to a few apts in india - certainly nothing in north east or northern border areas. a 767 or A310 would have made some sense for cargo pallets.

I am at a loss what chankian strategy is behind this.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Nov 2009 22:19

SaiK wrote:since Indian reach is expanding.. we need an AF base somewhere half way to amrikka

Saigru... where would be that?? The entire middle east is out of question as its filled with americal presence... the next possible location would be either central or eastern africa, a volatile region in my opinion Or europe where it would be next to impossible to get a base...

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 25 Nov 2009 08:34

the 747s could be used

1) for training crews for the C-17s due to similarities, gives a head start and probably lesser training costs

2) for high altitude testing of the Kaveri, the EOCS module bundled with the C-17b can be useful since the test engine out of the 4 engines is producing a different thrust, anyways, if they had the intention, they could have done this with the IL-76 platform

among others

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Nov 2009 09:38

Dileep wrote:I think the reason is 'capacity'. The BBJ may not be able to take the full executive entourage.

IIRC, the call sign for the PM's plane is always Air India 1 when outside Indian airspace. Within India, it goes under IAF control. No idea on call sign.

The president's helo had call sign Pratap-1 when it had that 'runway violation' incident in BOM.

Here's an informative article on the IAF BBJ:
And now India to have its Air Force One!

March 8th, 2009 - 2:50 pm ICT by IANS
...

“The three aircraft are being extensively flown across the country and are undergoing complete system checks. One of the aircraft will be dedicated to the president and prime minister and another used to ferry special guests or senior ministers, while one will be on stand-by,” the official added.

The aircraft’s interiors are being fitted to carry a total of 48 people, including the president or prime minister in a special cabin.
...

The long range Boeing 737s, fitted with new CFM 56 engines made jointly by the US GE and French Snecma, are designed to function as command posts, in the event of an emergency. The jets are quieter, more fuel-efficient and have a long range of up to 6,000 nautical miles (11,100 km).

The pilots and crew are being trained to fly the special craft. “The training of the pilots and the maintenance crew is on. The only hassle is that the pilots have not got the Master Green certificate (the highest professional grading) necessary for the pilot before flying VIPs,” the official added.

For every aircraft a nine-member team, including a pilot, navigator and a flight engineer, is currently being trained. For the BBJ to be flown, at least one team needs to have the Master Green certificate, the official added.

Maybe the nine-member Master Green certificate team is not ready as the planes have just arrived this year around March/April.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Nov 2009 10:52

Master Green is for pilots who prove they can handle bad weather conditions

A squadron may have only a few Master green certified pilots.

Its one of thos Catch 22 situations
weather turns bad - only these guys are Oked for flying but then to get this you kinda need to fly in bad weather.

anyway I was there for my friends final certification flight on a mig 23 UB.

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 25 Nov 2009 21:32

Gentlemen,

A question for Indian Air Force people or anyone who might know.

In what language are the manuals (flight, maintenance etc) of all IAF aircraft of Russian/Soviet origin ? I assume in English for I have a hard time believing that IAF air crews and maintenance personnel have to master Russian before they can train. The pictures I was able to see of IAF Russian aircraft have English cockpits.
If the manuals and documentation are in English, as I assume, who provided the English versions? Were they provided in English by the Russians or were the translations done by the IAF?
What about the IAF pilots who train in Russia or who trained in Russia/USSR in the past ? Did they have to learn Russian as a pre-condition to being trained there ?

On most Russian Aviation websites I have visited, even the Websites of the major aviation manufacturers of Russia and Ukraine (Ilyushin, Antonov, Tupolev etc) the quality of the English is very very poor and it is hard to understand the technical terms as they are translated......

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Nov 2009 21:45

Rahul M wrote:wiki gives BBJ range as
11,480 km (6,200 nm) 8 passengers;11,075km (5980nm) 25 passengers; 10,205km (5510nm) 50 passengers
that's not less than the 747 by much.

Andrews AFB can only accommodate 747s.

But, the question I have is was MMS on a state visit to the US or some place in India with a "Andrews Air Force Base" banner?

I think it would have done India a while lot better if MMS had met Bill Gates and the like. Obama does not bring anything to this table.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Nov 2009 21:52

gilles, I will need to check but AFAIK the manuals are available in english. as for initial training, a number of IAF officers do know russian, % is even higher in navy.
historically the training has been a combination of both, being taught by russian speakers and by english speaking russians.
since IAF and Indian manufacturers have been quite involved in both production (most of them) and eval of russian origin crafts I suspect that much of the documentation is re-written from the Indian context using the original literature. (different environment and op philosophy and all that)
there would be any number of IAF officers who are proficient both linguistically and technically in order to achieve that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Nov 2009 21:53

Gilles wrote:Gentlemen,

A question for Indian Air Force people or anyone who might know.

In what language are the manuals (flight, maintenance etc) of all IAF aircraft of Russian/Soviet origin ? I assume in English for I have a hard time believing that IAF air crews and maintenance personnel have to master Russian before they can train. The pictures I was able to see of IAF Russian aircraft have English cockpits.
If the manuals and documentation are in English, as I assume, who provided the English versions? Were they provided in English by the Russians or were the translations done by the IAF?
What about the IAF pilots who train in Russia or who trained in Russia/USSR in the past ? Did they have to learn Russian as a pre-condition to being trained there ?

On most Russian Aviation websites I have visited, even the Websites of the major aviation manufacturers of Russia and Ukraine (Ilyushin, Antonov, Tupolev etc) the quality of the English is very very poor and it is hard to understand the technical terms as they are translated......

I think the manuals are in Russian. I know that Indian pilots learn a smattering of Russian before they go for training. The rest is sign language I guess..

Anyhow here is an article you may enjoy - even if it does not actually answer your question.It's about flying T-72s on an Il 76. I speaks of training in Russia and reality after that.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... ewoor.html

During our ground training, that lasted well into Nov 84, we sought much info from our Soviet trainers. One was how to load the T-72 into the IL-76. "Yes", they said, "the IL-76 was designed in the 70's specifically to carry the Soviet tanks of the 80's". Terrific, the T-72's are already in India, we would fly in the IL-76's by Apr 85 with full knowledge on how to airlift India's MBT. We were disappointed. Not once did we see a demo of how it done. We were aware that IL-76's and AN-22's of Ivanovo took Soviet armoured vehicles to Afghanistan via some place in Uzbekistan or Kazakastan. But how did they go about loading the metal giant into the belly? We returned totally ignorant in 1985. A remarkable matter of cuisine. We were offered the same menu from July 1984 to Jan 85 for breakfast, lunch and dinner. As a friend said while leaving Ivanovo, "These guys should engrave the daily menu on stone, it will not change in a 100 years".

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Nov 2009 21:57

shiv ji, that would be for initial batches. I don't think subsequent batches are taught in russian by Indians instructors sitting in India !

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Nov 2009 22:38

For the record:

India to develop unmanned combat aerial vehicle

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Nov 2009 23:57

Rahul M wrote:shiv ji, that would be for initial batches. I don't think subsequent batches are taught in russian by Indians instructors sitting in India !

Rahul M, I've been in T-72s and BMP-II with Crylic language.....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Nov 2009 00:10

rohit, I meant the courses that are taken, many instrument panels especially analog ones are in cyrilic aren't they ?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Nov 2009 00:28

Rahul M wrote:rohit, I meant the courses that are taken, many instrument panels especially analog ones are in cyrilic aren't they ?

Well, I can't claim to have seen all the trg docs of IA...but my BIL taught electronics and electrics of T-90 and the books were in english...but they were indian printed...

write on the instrument panel....but iirc, indian made have english.....I do remember checking the batch number of the T-72 with Crylic panel..it was pretty old (do not remember the year) but later ones were in english....

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 26 Nov 2009 01:06

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 265935.cms

An alumnus of the Defence Service Command and Staff College of Bangladesh, Sajan holds a first division masters in defence studies from the National University, Dhaka.

Why would an IAF pilot train in Bangladesh? is this done after getting commissioned into IAF?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Nov 2009 01:18

rohitvats wrote:Well, I can't claim to have seen all the trg docs of IA...but my BIL taught electronics and electrics of T-90 and the books were in english...but they were indian printed...

write on the instrument panel....but iirc, indian made have english.....I do remember checking the batch number of the T-72 with Crylic panel..it was pretty old (do not remember the year) but later ones were in english....

thanks rohit, fits in with what I wrote earlier. even for the aircrafts I'm sure cyrilic inscribed instruments would have been replaced with english ones during upg by HAL.

adityaM, probably on an exchange visit.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 26 Nov 2009 04:31

AdityaM wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 265935.cms
An alumnus of the Defence Service Command and Staff College of Bangladesh, Sajan holds a first division masters in defence studies from the National University, Dhaka.
Why would an IAF pilot train in Bangladesh? is this done after getting commissioned into IAF?

Its a regular practice with friendly contries. we send ours they send theirs to our staff college

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 26 Nov 2009 05:07

Jagan wrote:
AdityaM wrote:
Why would an IAF pilot train in Bangladesh? is this done after getting commissioned into IAF?
Its a regular practice with friendly contries. we send ours they send theirs to our staff college

Bangladesh is a "friendly" state ??

They are one of the biggest conduits for ISI operatives and weapons and narcotics smuggling into India. The Bangladeshi Rifles regularly fight with the BSF and facilitate in pumping their destitute and homeless into India's borders, open anti-India sentiment is rife in their country; which is fast radicalizing and they are still considered "friendly" ? I wonder what it takes to become an "unfriendly" state ?

It sounds like a good deal for the Bangladeshis to get decent military education for cheap and benefit from India's military experience, for India on the other-hand I doubt there is much to gain.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Nov 2009 05:28

NRao wrote:For the record:

India to develop unmanned combat aerial vehicle

must have GPS enabled intelligent controls for safe landing by parachute, else self destroy on a kamikazi mode!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Nov 2009 05:39

Rahul M wrote:shiv ji, that would be for initial batches. I don't think subsequent batches are taught in russian by Indians instructors sitting in India !

Rahul - here is an email from a friend on this subject after reading my answer above:

Strange answer Shiv, "I think...."

Russian flight manuals are all in Russian. Remember we did the conversion .. of all manuals of every aircraft type in the IAF inventory in ...? The maximum trouble we had was with the MiG 21 manuals; they were incomplete, and even the Russians didn't have complete sets (no, they weren't fudging).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Nov 2009 10:19

edited.

(see post below)

thanks ravi ji.
--------------------

thanks shiv ji. fits in.