Indian Military Aviation

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Sep 2009 19:04

Its mystifying - andif they cannot plan for trainers - wonder what other things they are missing

Who in the IAF is responsible for thinking ahead - what the hell were they doing all this time.
If HAL was struggling - why could they not think of other options.

I would not put all my eggs in the HAL basket - let it first deliver the darn IJT in numbers

This may be the time to let the Tatas or whoever colloborate with some one to build something under license or jointly.

Or like the Israelis farm it to the private sector - let them bring the plane etc.

RahulM - I am not sure I would blame HAL for this - but I also would not trust them to handle one more product.

HAL is hitting some serious limitations as a public sector company and we really need to start looking at some other options for less tech intensive stuff.

IMO and all that

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Sep 2009 19:06

Damn, same questions Rahul!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Sep 2009 19:43

Cybaru wrote:Damn, same questions Rahul!

yeah, AWMTA and all that !

surya, blaming HAL on two counts
a) failing to rectify this problem which means they haven't given enough attention to it

b) jumping into the fray without a ready product especially when they are already overstretched. if they were serious about it they should have carried on with the HTT project, not the one in BR's HPT-32 page but another one whose mock-up was displayed in Aero-India 93 or 95.

HAL is hitting some serious limitations as a public sector company and we really need to start looking at some other options for less tech intensive stuff.

exactly. HAL doesn't have to have a finger in everything. this is a perfect opportunity to bring the pvt manufacturers up to speed.

just a question, how does the NAL Hansa, manufactured by taneja aerospace according to wiki compare to the deepak ?

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 02 Sep 2009 19:51

Kartik wrote:
Jagan wrote:he meant engine stopages due to fuel feed problems
Jagan, he may have meant it but he said flameouts. there's a BIG difference between jet engine flameouts and piston engines stopping due to fuel feed problems, which I'm sure you know.

In the jet age...the brain cannot keep up with that...

also typed it when boss was in meeting...so had to do it in a hurry

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Sep 2009 20:19

RahulM

Ok - I was parsing - I blame HAL for responding - but not for the planning failure.

Regarding the fix for the problem - agree

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 03 Sep 2009 11:07

Rahul M wrote:
just a question, how does the NAL Hansa, manufactured by taneja aerospace according to wiki compare to the deepak ?

On comparing the specs, Hansa seems to be underpowered when compared to the Deepak, and its wing area is comparatively less.. so on the paper, deepak is a better military trainer in my mind.. My guess is Hansa is designed to fly straight and true with minimal maneuvering capability as fitting its role of a civilian trainer, whereas Deepak is designed to be a light military trainer frm start..

My 2 cents...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Sep 2009 00:42

IAF should do fact finding on the effectiveness of the resources deployed in the search effort for YSR's missing helicopter. All manner of aircraft were deployed from IAF and ISRO resources and yet in the end its was a cellphone SMS tracing that narrowed the site. It means bad news if IAF were Ghauri hunting in TSP.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 04 Sep 2009 00:48

ramana wrote:IAF should do fact finding on the effectiveness of the resources deployed in the search effort for YSR's missing helicopter. All manner of aircraft were deployed from IAF and ISRO resources and yet in the end its was a cellphone SMS tracing that narrowed the site. It means bad news if IAF were Ghauri hunting in TSP.

Interesting pt. saar, I am concerned that our space resources were that ineffective

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Sep 2009 01:18

Not sure it makes sense to fact find a crash debris location (splintered pieces) from a Ghauri hunting perspective

That aspect would be better handled by the Ghauri hunting exercises

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 04 Sep 2009 01:34

Regarding the Hansa:

http://www.le-webmag.com/article.php3?i ... 37&lang=en

It is a much lighter aircraft, in the weight category of 750 kg (gross weight) compared to 1250 (MTOW), and is powered by Rotax 914F3 engine of 115 hp.

BUT as per the above link, there is also an up-engined version under production too, (wiki calls this Hansa-4). It’s powered by SMA SR305 engine (230hp) which is comparable in power to 260 hp Textron Lycoming EIO-540-D4B5 on Deepak. Of course it’s all fully aerobatic.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Sep 2009 01:39

Rahul M wrote:I don't think IAF can wait 6 years for a prop trainer.

at least for the time being perhaps they can outsource this level of training to pvt co's or at least lease trainers from them as a stop gap measure.

IIRC many air forces have already outsourced primary training to pvt cos.

Jagan, what's your take of the situation ?

The IN had outsourced some of its pilot training to the Delhi Flying Club some decades ago.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 05 Sep 2009 00:03

Any news on HAL Light Combat Helicopter

On February 13, 2009, HAL announced that the first flight of the Light Combat Helicopter had been pushed back to August 2009, a six month delay from the original schedule.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 05 Sep 2009 21:09

Also any news on the Jaguar Darin-III upgrade, the MiG-29 Upgrade???

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2009 09:51

from MOD report.

Missile Approach Warning System &
Laser Warning System: Defence Avionics
Research Establishment (DARE), Bangalore has
indigenously developed a ‘Missile Approach
Warning System and Laser Warning System’
for military aircraft and successfully tested it on
IAF’s Avro transport aircraft. The Indian Army
has sought this technology for its Cheetah
helicopters; About 69 systems will be massproduced
by Bharat Electronics Limited with
know-how from DARE. IAF and HAL have
also asked DARE to flight-prove this system for
their MI-17 medium-lift helicopters and Light
Combat Helicopter, respectively.

Dual Colour Missile Approach Warning
System: DARE has embarked upon jointdevelopment
of Dual Colour technology in
collaboration with Israel for its indigenously
developed Missile Approach Warning System.
Medium Altitude Long Endurance UAV,
RUSTOM: It is being designed to carry out
surveillance and reconnaissance missions
to meet the requirements of all the three
Services. DRDO plans to develop the Rustom
system in association with a Production
Agency cum Development Partner (PADP)
which is being identified from within the
Indian industry. Configuration design of
Rustom has been completed and wing tunnel
test is in progress.
Upgradation of Mig-27 Aircraft: DRDO has
upgraded Mig-27 aircraft with state-of-the-art
digital avionics to make it the front line strike
aircraft for the Indian Air Force. Advanced
capabilities, such as Integrated Flight and Fire
Control, which enable the pilot for “Hands
Free Weapon Delivery” has been cleared for
Final Operational Capability.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2009 21:40

chetak wrote:
Rahul M wrote:I don't think IAF can wait 6 years for a prop trainer.

at least for the time being perhaps they can outsource this level of training to pvt co's or at least lease trainers from them as a stop gap measure.

IIRC many air forces have already outsourced primary training to pvt cos.

Jagan, what's your take of the situation ?

The IN had outsourced some of its pilot training to the Delhi Flying Club some decades ago.

so there is some precedence !

=========
shashank, the hansa-4 is a 4-seater not a 2-seater with more power.

=========

On comparing the specs, Hansa seems to be underpowered when compared to the Deepak, and its wing area is comparatively less.. so on the paper, deepak is a better military trainer in my mind.. My guess is Hansa is designed to fly straight and true with minimal maneuvering capability as fitting its role of a civilian trainer, whereas Deepak is designed to be a light military trainer frm start..

My 2 cents...

true. hansa is similar to the diamond aircraft used in the Introductory Flight Screening stage of USAF. very similar specs.
IAF doesn't use a corresponding aircraft.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 07 Sep 2009 19:01

Some news about Kaveri

Kaveri jet engine finally poised for first flight

India has no facilities for altitude-testing and flight-testing jet engines. GTRE estimates it will take several hundred crore rupees to create such test facilities in India. Meanwhile, each test campaign in Russia costs Rs 50-60 crores.

the Kaveri’s maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN) is simply not enough. The air force has chosen American GE 404-IN engines, which produce 80 KN at full power, to power the first 20 Tejas fighters. And subsequent Tejas will get about 95 KN of thrust from a new-generation engine: the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ200 engines are currently being evaluated

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 07 Sep 2009 19:06

The first production IJT is scheduled to fly in early September

...They point to the success of HAL’s ongoing project to develop and build an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), which will replace the Kiran as a Stage-2 trainer. Powered by a custom-designed AL-55I engine from Russia, the first Sitara trainer from the production line is scheduled to fly next week....

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 07 Sep 2009 19:41

MTA rough Schematics and Model Display at MAKS 2009:

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58 ... ha/MTA.jpg
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58 ... TAMAKS.jpg

A gainly looking bird.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 07 Sep 2009 21:15

Kinda looks like a toned down C-17 if you ask me... Hope it performs just as well...

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 09 Sep 2009 20:51

Air Chief inaugurates Tele Presence System

Indian Air Force took another significant step in its quest for acquiring Network Centric Capabilities by inducting a ‘Tele-Presence System’ under the Air Force Network (AFNET) project today. This system facilitates lifelike experience between two distant sites for holding discussions/meetings thereby saving crucial time, fatigue and cost. This is the first system that has been made operational in the Indian Defence Forces.

The ‘Tele-Presence System’ was inaugurated by the Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal PV Naik. During the Tele-Presence session, the Air Chief advised the use of the system extensively for the day-to-day meetings and discussions including training activities enabling cutting down of costs, an absolute necessity in these times of budget constraints. The Air Chief congratulated the AF Net team for achieving yet another milestone. From the Bangalore site, this conference was attended by Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Training Command.

The system uses high definition cameras, spatial audio and calibrated acoustic systems for providing real-life experience which cannot be achieved by other video conferencing systems. Tele-Presence system rides over IAF’s state-of-the-art IP/MPLS network providing adequate reliability and security.

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 09 Sep 2009 22:13

Some India Related Aero-engines on display at MAKS:

AL55I for HAL IJT:
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58 ... /AL55I.jpg

RD-33MK:
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58 ... RD33MK.jpg

MiG29K Cockpit Simulator:
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58 ... KSMLTR.jpg

All pics courtesy Vitaly V. Kuzmin.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 09 Sep 2009 23:16

I am sorry for such a rookie question, but can anyone please tell me the exact no of Mirage 2K in the IAF fleet??? And also the squadrons that operate them... Last i knew only two squadrons flew them, No1 and No7 squadrons out of Maharajpur AFS..
But in one video with NDTV, there is a huge poster of Mirage in the Background and also the Officer giving the interview is wearing the Mirage patch.. So I am a bit confused, as the BR site also does not seem to show this detail...
Video Link

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Sep 2009 00:25

No 9 wolfpack. they converted from mig-27. all are 2 seat mirages IIRC, total 10.
total m2k of all types would be around 50 at the moment.

use this link for ready reference.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units ... drons.html

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 10 Sep 2009 01:08

On the list the Dragons are still listed as being at Pune AFB...
The Dragons have moved IIRC to Jamnagar.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Sep 2009 01:17

use the feedback form in this page.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units ... Fleet.html

or just email jagan or rupak.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 10 Sep 2009 01:40

Hey...that was fast...and I didnt even email!....

The information is now updated!

shetty · Post by **shetty** » 11 Sep 2009 14:06

Saw a Rustom fly couple of times near the HAL airport area. Had a clear view of it doing a nice circle and landing on the runway. Did it atleast couple of times in about 10 minutes space. Looked pretty good to this layman's eyes

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 11 Sep 2009 15:03

shetty wrote:Saw a Rustom fly couple of times near the HAL airport area. Had a clear view of it doing a nice circle and landing on the runway. Did it atleast couple of times in about 10 minutes space. Looked pretty good to this layman's eyes

Did you mean LCRA? or the Rustom as in the full-scale model seen at AI09?

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 11 Sep 2009 17:20

shetty wrote:Saw a Rustom fly couple of times near the HAL airport area. Had a clear view of it doing a nice circle and landing on the runway. Did it atleast couple of times in about 10 minutes space. Looked pretty good to this layman's eyes

You are talking about Two engined rustom or long ez single engined platform?

shetty · Post by **shetty** » 11 Sep 2009 17:58

I should have clarified. The single engined one.

http://www.drdo.com/dpi/SAsiaDefnStraRev_.pdf

The last page has the photo.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 11 Sep 2009 21:40

There is a twin engined version of the Rustom MALE UAV??? Could someone post any related links?? Thanks in advance..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Sep 2009 21:54

It was a Rutan vari-eze design thing that was doing wild tricks over HAL today. Also saw an LCA grey camo and 2 white drop tanks take off. Later 2 F-16s - they are still here. Also a yellow Hawk and a very low and deafening Il 78 takeoff. Sundry Chetaks and Dhruvs doing the rounds in the meantime.

Bright sunny day today..

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 11 Sep 2009 22:31

shiv wrote:It was a Rutan vari-eze design thing that was doing wild tricks over HAL today. Also saw an LCA grey camo and 2 white drop tanks take off. Later 2 F-16s - they are still here. Also a yellow Hawk and a very low and deafening Il 78 takeoff. Sundry Chetaks and Dhruvs doing the rounds in the meantime.

Bright sunny day today..

That's a lot of test activity!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Sep 2009 22:46

Testing networks?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Sep 2009 23:23

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/09/ex ... 30mki.html

Flash forward four years and the Andaman & Nicobar Command (ANC), India's only theatre command, is learnt to have officially recommended that a fleet of Su-30MKIs be deployed permanently at AFS Car Nic, with a mainland support structure in Tamil Nadu. The recommendation is part of a whole host of items that were placed on the table during a seminar at Port Blair last week attended by former President APJ Abdul Kalam, the Prime Minister's special envoy on nuclear issues and climate change Shyam Saran and Deputy National Security Advisor (and former Defence Secretary) Shekhar Dutt.

vijyeta · Post by **vijyeta** » 12 Sep 2009 01:40

Does BR have any images of the IAF Jaguar cockpit?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2009 02:08

yes, unfortunately not in the section you would expect.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... 4.jpg.html

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Sep 2009 09:04

Any reason why IAF and IN choose Zhuk-ME for upgrade and 29K over the proven BARS ( Bars-29 PESA ).

What good a mechnically scanned antenna would offer when PESA are proven and reliable ?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Sep 2009 09:14

Austin wrote:Any reason why IAF and IN choose Zhuk-ME for upgrade and 29K over the proven BARS ( Bars-29 PESA ).

What good a mechnically scanned antenna would offer when PESA are proven and reliable ?

One guess would be scan angles. Mechs tend to have greater scan angles but lesser scan speeds. Gurus can explain. Also, I think the BARS 29 was a little on the heavy side resulting in a modest detection range of 120km for a 5msq target. The Zhuk M has been quoted @ 150km for the same size target. Cost might be still another issue.

Further MiG seems to always have worked with Phaza on the fulcrum series, they would have had more experience. Although the foxhound does have a tikhomorov made Zaslon I think.

CM

vijyeta · Post by **vijyeta** » 12 Sep 2009 10:18

Rahul M wrote:yes, unfortunately not in the section you would expect.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... 4.jpg.html

Nice pic. Thanks Rahul.